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Daniel_Malloy
Jul 20 2009, 02:06
EDIT:
For those just now reading this thread, here is the finished guide I have created in the course of this thread. It contains some basic principles of mil-dot ranging and Russian PSO scopes along with ranging tables for the M24, M40, M107, DMR, MK12 SPR, SVD Dragunov, KSVK, and the VSS Vintorez. There is still a lot of useful information in this thread. If you have the time, I recommend you go through it when you can.

Weapon Ranging and Correction Guide (http://wolverine.cameron.edu/~ac113448/ARMA2/ARMA2WeaponRangingAndCorrectionGuide.pdf)


I have been searching the forums for range tables for the various long-range weapons in Arma 2, but to no avail. I have decided to start a thead in hopes that others will post their custom tables.

Here is a range and aim correction table for the M24 sniper rifle. This has been produced with the Steam demo on Regular difficulty (I assume the ballistics model has not changed. If it has, please say so). The following table has been created using the basic mil dot ranging formula, “Size of target in meters times one-thousand, then dividing by size of target in mils to equal range in meters”. Target height has been estimated at two meters and target width has been estimated at twenty-five percent of target height giving us a width of fifty centimeters. Range and target height/width was established using an BLUFOR Soldier (unarmed). Target correction was established using the orange lights on the small road barriers located next to the soldier as targets. All shots and ranges were taken in the prone position with controlled breathing.

IMPORTANT NOTE: The space between the end of the last mil dots (the 4th from the center) and the thick black line appears to be one mil, not point-nine mils. Also, the mil dots are assumed to be two-tenths of a mil in diameter.

http://wolverine.cameron.edu/~ac113448/misc/M24_Table.gif

If no one else posts any tables, I will create some more when I get my boxed copy later this week (work permitting). Also, should I create a guide in this thread for the M16 ACOG and the SVD Dragunov? These two optics are pretty self-explanitory, but I'm wondering if it would be helpful for people new to these optics to have an introduction on how to use them...

Taurus
Jul 20 2009, 02:54
Yes definitely!
Also please post screens of the Dot- mil thing explaining what they are.
I'm having issues with the terminology.
Is a "mil dot" the distance between two dots in the scope?
This could probably be found on wikipedia, sorry for my lazyness.

Also the ACOG sight and dragunov needs to be explained.
I can not remember the site name atm, but there's a site where the dragunuv is explained how you'd use the left part to determine distance to target.

And if you or anyone else have time to explain how to aim with the M203 grenade launcher, because I sure can't hit anything with it.

Thanks in advance.

Daniel_Malloy
Jul 20 2009, 04:47
First off, mil is short for milliradian. It is a very small angle that is used to find the distance from a target whose size is known. On mil-dot scopes, the distance between the center of two dots is one mil. The following picture shows how you can measure mils on a mil dot scope:

http://www2.leupold.com/products/tactical_products/images/Reticles/Mil_Dot_diagram_2x.gif

For instance, a target one meter tall will look one mil big at 1,000 meters. At 500 meters, that target would look two mils big. I would reccomend taking a look at the following site for a better look at Mildot ranging:
http://www.shooterready.com/mildot.html

As for the ACOG scope, the following picture illustrates the basic use of the reticle:
http://wolverine.cameron.edu/~ac113448/misc/ACOG.jpg

In ARMA 2, each thick horizontal line also corresponds to the width of a man's shoulders at a certain distance. at 150 meters, you aim with the center line (the 1st line). At 300 meters, you aim with the 3rd line because that line corresponds to the targets shoulders. Keep in mind that the M16 is not that accurate out past 300 meters.

As for the SVD Dragunov, We will use the following screenshot:

http://wolverine.cameron.edu/~ac113448/misc/SVD.jpg

You use the range scale to judge the height of the target just like in the picture. As you can see, there are presets for 200 meters out to 1,000 meters. 100 meters can also be determined by using the horizontal line under the guy's feet to the tip of the large triangle above the center of the reticle. Also, each of the triangles below the center are the aiming points at certain ranges. the first (the center) is for 100-200 meters. the second is for 300 meters. 3rd is 500 meters. the 4th is 700 meters.

Although, the real scope/weapon range finder is calibrated to a height of 1.7 meters, the in-game one seems to match up properly with what the M24 scope reads as 2 meters. I believe this is why the vertical triangles have weird zeros. If anyone knows better than this, please feel free to correct me.

Hoak
Jul 20 2009, 07:00
Thank you Daniel for the correction table, the mil error was driving me batshit!

:D

Frederf
Jul 20 2009, 07:15
Might want to include the USMC mildot scope as well as the US Army mildot scope. I don't know what weapons have what scopes in ArmA2 but there's bound to be both types within a few addons. The army one has round dots while the marine one has elongated dots and the dimensions differ.

There should also be a disclaimer that the dots on the scopes in ArmA2 most definately are not correct to their real life equivalents. Besides that excellent work and great presentation!

Hoak
Jul 20 2009, 07:41
There should also be a disclaimer that the dots on the scopes in ArmA2 most definately are not correct to their real life equivalents.
I agree! Why is this messed up I wonder? It's not even an error of simple scale that's consistent which is rather odd...


Besides that excellent work and great presentation!
I Agree! All we need now is a mod to put it in a notebook in the game, or for BI to take notice and make some corrections.

Thank you again Daniel, and I look forward to anything else you take the time to document!

:)

Fincuan
Jul 20 2009, 11:08
Nice effort :rthumb:

About SVD's PSO-1: Under 1000 meters you'd basically adjust the scope to the correct range and aim with the top triangle. The triangles under that are for 1100, 1200 and 1300 meters. At least that's how it should go with the real one. I have no idea if this is the case in Arma2. The reticle they've used is a bit weird, because the ones I've seen looked like this:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/27/PSO-1_reticle_Romanian_2.JPG
Source: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PSO-1_reticle_Romanian_2.JPG

An-225
Jul 20 2009, 11:19
Brilliant guide! Any chance we can get a breakdown of the M107 scope, as well as the PSO on the VSS and the KSVK?

Like Fincuan, I've only ever seen a PSO-1 with a center chevron, with no chevrons above it.

walker
Jul 20 2009, 11:56
Hi al

Great work Daniel_Malloy

If I might suggest you should put this in the BIS Wiki ArmA II perhaps a page off the hints and tips section.
http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/ArmA_II_Hints_and_Tips

Kind Regards walker

Daniel_Malloy
Jul 20 2009, 15:49
As soon as I get the boxed game, I'll work on breakdowns for the other scopes. I will also add a thread to the WIKI like Walker suggested when I get some more weapons done and my estimates can be confirmed. If you use these estimates and find them off, please let me know so I can correct them.

Here are two links to explain the difference in the Army and USMC Mil dots for those interested. I figured links would be better than writing what has alread been written again (and better than I could have done too):
http://www.boomershoot.org/general/TruthMilDots.htm
http://www.snipersparadise.com/training/mildot2.html

As for the SVD scope and the top chevron, I believe that they added it purely for the sake of ranging targets at 100 meters. I have also confirmed that the distance between the last mil dot and the thick line is 1.1 mils on the M24 if anyone is interestead.

Also, here is a ranging guide for the M203 grenade launcher. The left numbers show the zero point for a ground explosion at that distance while the right numbers show how to measure targets. The measuring line is for targets at 150 and 200 meters. To measure 100 meters, line up the target like in the picture. I have not included any further ranges since trying to aim farther and still kill a man-sized target with this unadjustable sight cannot be accurate past 200 meters.

http://wolverine.cameron.edu/~ac113448/misc/M203Ranging.jpg

Again, hopefully other people will get the same results as I have.

alext223
Jul 20 2009, 22:27
Very useful! Thank you.

Uziyahu--IDF
Jul 20 2009, 22:38
The M16 is accurate well beyond 300 meters if you have an optic. Plenty of competitive shooters fire their AR-15's accurately to 600 meters. It's trying to do the same with iron sights that is an almost impossible feat. (I can rarely hit a 300 meter target with a higher-caliber rifle with iron sights in WW2Online, but many players in that game have no problems sniping from long distances with iron sights.)

U.S. Army soldiers in the 80's, firing from the prone supported position, were only supposed to hit the 300 meter target about 15% of the time with iron sights.

AndreAce
Jul 20 2009, 23:03
Good work @<hidden> - very useful guide,thx a lot :)

galzohar
Jul 20 2009, 23:25
IRL It's really not that hard to reliably hit a target at 300m with iron sights when you're in a comfortable prone position and taking your time. Add a bipod to your weapon and it becomes incredibly easy and fast, too. In-game, though, due to visibility/pixelation problems, it's pretty hard to hit stuff above 200m without magnifying optics or spray&pray (though with spray&pray I did hit targets at 500~600m with an M2 hummvee).

anfiach
Jul 20 2009, 23:41
Great job Malloy




On a side note I believe the scaling is off on the M107 so the aim point changes between the standard scope view and the zoomed view. Will have to verify though.

KeyCat
Jul 20 2009, 23:51
Great stuff! Thanks for sharing Daniel_Malloy!

/KC

anfiach
Jul 20 2009, 23:55
actually I guess I was mistaken, further testing has shown no such discrepencies.

Nazul
Jul 21 2009, 00:21
Thanks for this, I had become proficient at guessing ranges and firing accurately without any understanding of the scopes. This explains it nicely.

galzohar
Jul 21 2009, 00:54
Yes, it seems like the M107 is zeroed to 300m (or 250m?) unzoomed, and 500m zoomed.

This is Bosnia
Jul 21 2009, 02:50
Thx Daniel for the info.

BC.
Jul 21 2009, 03:21
Hello and thank you Daniel_Malloy !! This is absolutely a must read and a great help!

Peace.

/bc

anfiach
Jul 21 2009, 04:40
Yes, it seems like the M107 is zeroed to 300m (or 250m?) unzoomed, and 500m zoomed.

Maybe there is just inconsistent results or maybe atmospheric modifiers we are not aware of? I recall one day getting variable accuracy with it in regard to aim point but when I tested today I was able to score head shots at 500m aiming with the first mil dot in other words, consistent.

Alpha-Kilo
Jul 21 2009, 09:04
Thank you for explaining this so well! Are you planning to make this info available in a printer-friendly format? I think it would be great to have this information available as a reference while playing the game.

Fincuan
Jul 21 2009, 12:07
Whoever said the M017's zero-point varies with zoom is correct. A few other weapons also have same "feature", and out of the top of my head I'd say they were the DMR and SPR. It's easy to fix from the configs, and I believe I already posted the needed config file in another thread on the subject. I'll try to look it up.

edit: Found it
http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?p=1355681#post1355681

zezzi
Jul 21 2009, 13:42
http://www.termiitti.com/kuva/v.php?img=388


Here is my test results of the PSO sight (with SVD) in Arma 2. I think that the last triangle is aiming point of distance ~950 meters.

zoldatpizdat
Jul 21 2009, 14:04
The optics is adapted what to correspond to the engine of game. In ARMA2: in 2-3 times the scale is reduced,Speed of bullets and shells are reduced in 3-4 times ( probably for Realistic Perception of a shot on a long distance 1-2km in game (but it is real 300-600m) ;) But the most sad monstrous (very bad) the ballistics of all weapon is created impression that all rifles use 9mm para ( probably for Realistic Perception of a shot on a long distance !!!!!!!!! ):mad: Example: in ARMA2 you see the tank in 100 meters, aim from RPG at a tower but blow up yourselves to devils!!!!!! Because you have overlooked that in game 100m=300-400m + you sit!!! You need to aim above the tank or to climb on a roof of a house (improves ballistics :()!! For this reason in game there is no opportunity to shoot from RPG If You lay on the ground.

In ARMA2 the optics has no anything Similar with real (it simply increases the image on the monitor even an Aim string!!!!!!!:D)
On KSVK standardly are not established PSO1

BoxiouS
Jul 21 2009, 14:08
Just to echo everything above my post, thank you for an excellent guide. i hope you expand on it:)

Alex72
Jul 21 2009, 14:45
Good work on this. :)

Aiming will get better soon im sure. Through addons aiming will be very good. Just like we got in ArmA1 through addons ACE, Sight Adjustement addon etc.

Alex

zoldatpizdat
Jul 21 2009, 15:17
Has overlooked to inform in ARMA2 it is shown not PSO1 It POSP Byelorussia makes (in game it is named Chernorussia) :wave:

mutters
Jul 21 2009, 21:43
Ace guide ty

BadBoy_Killa
Jul 23 2009, 02:50
Just wanted to say thanks Malloy, I know you posted
it else where as will, or at least others have copied it
and referenced it to you.

I have done a similar table for the Barrett but boy what a difficult weapon
to make a correction table for! untill 300 meters everything below the range is at
Meters / Mills : 100= +1 150= +2 200= +2 250=+1 300=+1 zoomed
Unzoomed :100= 0 150= 0 200= 0 250=0 300= 0.5

mapped it all the way to 700 but not very accurate although it took me hours
hitting unmoving target accurately.

can't wait to see what you come back with after testing this weapon!
may I suggest going to 1500 meters, this weapon is powerful enough you wont run out of scope :)

Daniel_Malloy
Jul 23 2009, 04:41
Thanks everyone for your compliments, I will try to continue making as many of these as are neccessary.

I have created ranging tables for the M107, MK12, DMR, and tested the M40. I have found that the M40 ranging and correction is the same as the M24 (at least, I couldn't tell any difference). Here are the word files for each weapons containing the files. I figured this would be easier than posting a picture until I post my complete guide/tables. I have also included a link to the M24 tables so that those not wanting to wait for me to make them more printer/user friendly can modify these.


NOTE: When the variable scopes are zoomed in, the mil-dots appear to be accurate assuming a 2 meter tall target like with the M24. Another thing to be noted here is that the zero ranges for zoomed and unzoomed are different.

DMR Tables (http://wolverine.cameron.edu/~ac113448/ARMA2/DMR_Tables.doc)
M107 Tables (http://wolverine.cameron.edu/~ac113448/ARMA2/M107_Tables.doc)
MK 12 Tables (http://wolverine.cameron.edu/~ac113448/ARMA2/MK12_Tables.doc)
M24 Tables (http://wolverine.cameron.edu/~ac113448/ARMA2/M24_Tables.doc)


Also, for the printer-friendly tables to come in the compiled guide, what details would you want in them and in what order? I was thinking of making them with Target Height, Correction, and then Range. I was thinking about using only height and correction, but I remembered that you might need to know the ranges and corrections for shooting from an incline. Would you guys also want them to list ranges in 50 or 100 meter increments?

Hoak
Jul 23 2009, 12:55
Outstanding and thank you again Daniel! I think your formatting ideas are fine, but would suggest you include 50 and 100m increments as the terrain is rather varied in ArmA II; and there will be some that just want some rough numbers to remember as a rule-of-thumb -- and others who always crave as much detail as possible.

You may also want to compile your final work to PDF, as DOC or RTF files often get edited and/or corrupted before getting passed along... Paste your signature or avatar in there too, I like to remember the folks that put time and effort into something I benefit from.

:)

galzohar
Jul 23 2009, 13:23
Either Marines use ammunition with a MUCH flatter trajectory than the IDF, or the in-game ballistics are simply off compared to RL. M24 with standard IDF ammo would require 33 clicks, or ~9.43 mils, while in-game only needs 7, which is a major difference. Hope ACE2 comes to the rescue ;)

KJGJ
Jul 23 2009, 14:51
Thank you very much for this, it helps tremendously.

BadBoy_Killa
Jul 23 2009, 19:13
This is great! thanks again DM!
I agree with HOAK, PDF it so that it is protected, your work is greatly
appreciated just make it will be! :)

Any chance for Russian rifles tables? personally I am intersted in the Dragunov
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/data/4565/medium/62_TKIV_DRAGUNOV_Finland.jpg

Mr Fenix
Jul 23 2009, 19:31
This thread is a revelation. Thankyou very very much Daniel Malloy! I have never understood the first thing about the 'funny marks' in huds and sights in over a decade of gaming :D.

Bricks
Jul 23 2009, 21:02
Either Marines use ammunition with a MUCH flatter trajectory than the IDF, or the in-game ballistics are simply off compared to RL. M24 with standard IDF ammo would require 33 clicks, or ~9.43 mils, while in-game only needs 7, which is a major difference. Hope ACE2 comes to the rescue ;)

Ummm, where do I start?

First, what range are you referring to when you say "33 Clicks"? You're probably saying 33 clicks (33 MOA which equals roughly 9.78 mils) from bottomed out. In-game the rifle is zeroed to 250 m so you can't compare the mils from bottomed out to X range with to the hold off (in mils) from 250m zero to 800 m (which I'm assuming is where you got 7 mils from).

Second, the Marines use the M40 not the M24. The M40 can only use 7.62x51mm, the M24 can be adapted to other calibers but typically and in-game uses the same 7.62x51mm.

Third, there is a ton of other concerns aside from bullet's ballistics that will affect the trajectory and thus affect the correction/hold off. Factors like wind, tgt/shooters elevation, hot/cold barrel, eye relief, shooter's hold will all have an effect. Again you can't compare an in-game weapons zero and hold off to a real weapons range correction and assume BI screwed up the ballistics.

I'm not saying the in-game ballistics are correct I'm saying your method of comparing them is completely wrong. ;)

galzohar
Jul 23 2009, 22:39
- It's for 800m, of course.

- While I forgot to substract the clicks for 250m (I was using standard 100m zero), it's only 3.5 clicks difference between 100m and 250m (1 mil), which means the game is still quite a bit off, though not as much.

- The size of a click is 3cm at 100m, which is also approximately 1 MOA. How accurate it is I'm not sure, but accurate enough to not make such a huge difference. Same goes for inaccuracies in the definition of a mil.

- Other concerns are so irrelevant here that I don't know where to start. Sure those things affect ballistics, but not anywhere near the kind of difference we're talking about here. Especially since the values are from tables (both in-game test values and IRL table values) which use both use standard conditions, so a lot of those effects would end up being the same anyway, on top of being negligible.

-M40 and M24 is practically the same thing. The differences are minor. They (the standard-issue, non-modified ones) use the same barrel and shoot the same ammo.

So I'm saying both the in-game ballistics are incorrect unless the US somehow has access to 7.62 sniper rounds with significantly flatter trajectory, which may or may not be true), and that my methods of comparing them, while only 97% accurate, are more than good enough.

Daniel_Malloy
Jul 24 2009, 01:35
In response to making them PDFs, I will be doing that on the final guide after I have collected the other weapon corrections. I will be working on a ranging table for the russian weapons, but I have to figure out exactly how to do it since they use chevrons zeroed at certain ranges. I am thinking of creating them like I did the M203 grenade launcher instead of a traditional "table"... I am wondering if a mod like ACES would be able to write numbers down next to every other chevron with its zeroed range (to be realistic, one would have to be able to change the zeroed range of the weapon. If we couldn't do that, maybe it wouldn't be considered unrealistic to do so)...

galzohar
Jul 24 2009, 01:59
If you're already modding, might as well simply implement scope adjustment for scopes that allow it (like the US non-ACOG scopes, dunno about the Russian scopes).

BadBoy_Killa
Jul 24 2009, 07:17
yeah no zoom in the sniper Russian scopes,
and as for the discussion about accuracy in game, I think it is
close enough for 50ish dollar game, if you want 99% accuracy and manual
adjustment and wind factor in a shot you should look at the VBS2 or Virtual Battle Space 2.
I didnt know about this game until a teammate today told me about it, very impressive
but way to complicated and very realistic no campaign though,
it is also made by BI. I think it sells for $2500 for the military version
and $500 for personal.

Frederf
Jul 24 2009, 08:23
Eh, I can pull out $5 games from a bargain bin that have adjustable elevation and windage. Delta Force 2 for example. This "oh that's so complex it is only justified in VBS2" garbage is showing a lack of understanding.

mr.g-c
Jul 24 2009, 08:25
Eh, I can pull out $5 games from a bargain bin that have adjustable elevation and windage. Delta Force 2 for example. This "oh that's so complex it is only justified in VBS2" garbage is showing a lack of understanding.
Very well said! ;)

galzohar
Jul 24 2009, 14:26
Yeah, we're not asking for inter-gallactic ballistics here, just that the in-game ballistics will be close enough to RL that the RL ballistics tables can be used, and that we can adjust the elevation on the scopes that allow that IRL (basically change zero range on the fly, no animation needed, only 2 keybindings and a maybe a number on the HUD (at least on lower difficulties) depending on the exact implementation).

BadBoy_Killa
Jul 25 2009, 03:00
Eh, I can pull out $5 games from a bargain bin that have adjustable elevation and windage. Delta Force 2 for example. This "oh that's so complex it is only justified in VBS2" garbage is showing a lack of understanding.

over the top if you ask me for a reply for what it was, but gives an idea
or two of what type of person you are.
any how I would appreciate more accuracy and real life experience when taking
shots and factoring in the rotation of the earth maybe? it is just not happening
and I dont expect it to happen here. especially when you have MM servers
limiting view distance to 800, that is what I can call "garbage",
anyhow rant over. :D

mils
Jul 25 2009, 04:33
Hi, Sorry for sounding like a numpty, I've read the links and I'm still 'missing' something to fully get this.

I understand using the mils to get the range, that's fine, 1 mil at 1 meter high target = 1000 meters (or yards? get a metric system lads :P)

What I miss is the 'adjustment' I've been trying hard to get this right but every time I think I have the calcs right I'm always wrong and end up trial and erroring it till the opfor are down :(

Can anyone run me through 'adjustments' as the calcs I use seems to be off :(

galzohar
Jul 25 2009, 17:48
1 mil is indeed 1 meter high target at 1000m. Keep in mind a person in game seems to be 2m (or is it 1.8m? Current tables don't seem accurate enough to tell for sure). Once you know the range to the target, use the offset correction from the appropriate table made by the OP.

mils
Jul 25 2009, 22:36
what do you mean correct offset? to raise the aiming by 1 mill if the correction is -1 mil?

galzohar
Jul 25 2009, 23:23
Yes. 10characters

mils
Jul 26 2009, 04:44
cool, last Q. now 1 mil i assume is at normal aspect when firing a weapon like the dragov, with no zoom, some of the others you press button 2 and it goes into zoom further. Can we get tables for those?

Is there a good single player mission someone has made to help 'train' us using these measurements?

mils
Jul 28 2009, 13:11
Thanks everyone for your compliments, I will try to continue making as many of these as are neccessary.

I have created ranging tables for the M107, MK12, DMR, and tested the M40. I have found that the M40 ranging and correction is the same as the M24 (at least, I couldn't tell any difference). Here are the word files for each weapons containing the files. I figured this would be easier than posting a picture until I post my complete guide/tables. I have also included a link to the M24 tables so that those not wanting to wait for me to make them more printer/user friendly can modify these.


NOTE: When the variable scopes are zoomed in, the mil-dots appear to be accurate assuming a 2 meter tall target like with the M24. Another thing to be noted here is that the zero ranges for zoomed and unzoomed are different.

DMR Tables (http://wolverine.cameron.edu/~ac113448/ARMA2/DMR_Tables.doc)
M107 Tables (http://wolverine.cameron.edu/~ac113448/ARMA2/M107_Tables.doc)
MK 12 Tables (http://wolverine.cameron.edu/~ac113448/ARMA2/MK12_Tables.doc)
M24 Tables (http://wolverine.cameron.edu/~ac113448/ARMA2/M24_Tables.doc)


Also, for the printer-friendly tables to come in the compiled guide, what details would you want in them and in what order? I was thinking of making them with Target Height, Correction, and then Range. I was thinking about using only height and correction, but I remembered that you might need to know the ranges and corrections for shooting from an incline. Would you guys also want them to list ranges in 50 or 100 meter increments?

thank you very much for the 107 ones!!!

Shadz
Jul 29 2009, 11:37
Can't seem to d/l the files...are they still available?

Daniel_Malloy
Jul 30 2009, 01:57
They seem to still be up... If you still have problems, let me know and I can e-mail them to you...

Daniel_Malloy
Jul 31 2009, 02:56
I have created a weapon test range with pop-up targets at set ranges. It is currently set up with 25 meter increments from 25-200 meters. From there, it goes out to 1,450 meters in 50 meter increments. Next to each pop-up is an unarmed blufor soldier so that the distance from each target can be established.

Weapon Testing Range (http://wolverine.cameron.edu/~ac113448/ARMA2/WeaponRange.zip)

This is the first time I have created something like this for ARMA 2. Hopefully, I have done it correctly; if not, please let me know so I can fix it.

Poppis
Jul 31 2009, 06:40
Seemed to work ok to me.

Li0n
Aug 1 2009, 08:03
Daniel_Malloy, and what about VSS and KSVK aiming points? =)

Daniel_Malloy
Aug 2 2009, 16:00
As soon as I have some time off, I'll get them too.

Daniel_Malloy
Aug 3 2009, 04:02
Here is what I am thinking of doing for the Russian scopes since I can't really tell you where to aim in 50 meter increments like with the mil-dot scopes. This one is for the SVD, which upon testing I believe is very easy to use once you see how the chevrons are set up for every 200 meters from a 100 meter zero. Please let me know what you think of showing range correction graphically like this...

http://wolverine.cameron.edu/~ac113448/ARMA2/SVD_Ranging.gif

Li0n
Aug 3 2009, 11:48
Daniel_Malloy, graphics is better.

noamles
Aug 3 2009, 16:44
why not adjust the sight instead of using hold overs?

Daniel_Malloy
Aug 4 2009, 03:36
There is no way to adjust the sight in-game without using an addon like the GMJ Sight Adjustment Mod. (http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=6495).

Here are my range correction charts for the KSVK and the VSS. In my testing, the VSS has been EXTREMELY difficult to determine the ranges for each chevron. Because of this, I have only included the ranges at the tip of each chevron.

http://wolverine.cameron.edu/~ac113448/ARMA2/KSVK_Ranging.gif

http://wolverine.cameron.edu/~ac113448/ARMA2/VSS_Ranging.gif

Li0n
Aug 4 2009, 12:06
Thanks, Daniel_Malloy!

Daniel_Malloy
Aug 5 2009, 05:50
Alright, I believe I have finished my ranging and correction guide. It may not be in the best printer-friendly format, but I believe it to be a good compromise of information vs space. Please let me know what you think.

ARMA 2 Weapon Ranging and Correction Guide (http://wolverine.cameron.edu/~ac113448/ARMA2/ARMA2WeaponRangingAndCorrectionGuide.pdf)



Daniel_Malloy

Poppis
Aug 5 2009, 09:22
Very nice work, thanks.

Li0n
Aug 5 2009, 14:30
Daniel_Malloy, in addition to your tables:
http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/6304/82528593.gif (http://img150.imageshack.us/i/82528593.gif/)

TRexian
Aug 5 2009, 14:51
Great work, DanMalloy!

BadBoy_Killa
Aug 7 2009, 05:58
Great work, thanks again Dan.

Tankbuster
Aug 7 2009, 10:49
I must admit, I've never really considered looking into this stuff. In the past, I've always used a mixture of experience, guesswork and ranging shots to hit targets.
I'm going to print this off and study it.
In particular, I've never got into tube launched grenades such as the M203 because I found it hard to get reasonable, let alone good. I think I'll install Kronskys target range addon and get some practice in.

galzohar
Aug 7 2009, 12:28
Speeaking of launchers, would be nice to have some tables for those as well ;) (RPG, SMAW, M136)

Gunnarmarine
Aug 7 2009, 14:54
The M16 is accurate well beyond 300 meters if you have an optic. Plenty of competitive shooters fire their AR-15's accurately to 600 meters. It's trying to do the same with iron sights that is an almost impossible feat. (I can rarely hit a 300 meter target with a higher-caliber rifle with iron sights in WW2Online, but many players in that game have no problems sniping from long distances with iron sights.)

U.S. Army soldiers in the 80's, firing from the prone supported position, were only supposed to hit the 300 meter target about 15% of the time with iron sights.
just a heads up the iron sights you can heat point target (your skull) at 550m in real life. But I had training of course and a scope is just way easier to use and helps judge distance and acts as a reflex tight. acog is the best.

---------- Post added at 02:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:50 PM ----------

Would be nice to have more options for the use of heavy machine guns in game. indirect fire with a 50cal would be so sweet. hail of bullets landing on the enemy from a far off safe position hells yeah.

galzohar
Aug 7 2009, 22:40
The problem with long ranges with weapons that don't have scope is the simple fact you can't see. Even with max zoom your ability to spot details isn't anywhere near RL.

Li0n
Aug 9 2009, 15:28
Speeaking of launchers, would be nice to have some tables for those as well
Let`s begin! =)
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/7704/rpg18en.jpg (http://img522.imageshack.us/i/rpg18en.jpg/)

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/3726/smawen.jpg
I don`t know how to create tables for RPG-7 and M-136 - aims have only 1 point.

cjsoques
Aug 9 2009, 15:30
This should be stickied, thanks for all the helpful info! I'm much better at taking people out now

Li0n
Aug 18 2009, 04:24
Found some info about RPG-7 - it HAS the optical scope in real.

galzohar
Aug 18 2009, 06:37
I don`t know how to create tables for RPG-7 and M-136 - aims have only 1 point.
Just like you did the 150 marker for the RPG-18 ;)

Though what's with the 150-700 line on the SMAW? There must be *some* noticeable difference and a distance at which it seems *most* accurate?

nicolasroger
Aug 18 2009, 07:53
this is really really cool. I've never used those little lines before. I was just going with guesses and feeelings. That made the game more enjoyable for me :) thx

about the rocket launchers, how can I know the distance of the target?

Li0n
Aug 18 2009, 12:18
nicolasroger, press the space (command mode by default ) and you will see distance.
galzohar RPG-18 and SMAW have visible aim points ( Not one like m-136 ). I cant graduate aim myself because your seeing of the aim and mine will be different. So as your question about SMAW - you will see it not like me, so I set only middle point 1000. Dont worry - rocket will fly straight from 150 to 700 meters.

galzohar
Aug 18 2009, 13:36
What I got with the SMAW so far:

Main cross = always above target. Only at 0m the cross will be dead on target. Even at 10m you'll hit under, and I couldn't find any range at which the main cross actually hits dead on target.

75m: 1/2-way between the first and second cross

100m: 0.6-way between the first and second cross

200m: second cross.

300m: 1.1 crosses

400-1000m: ~1.2 crosses (yes it's weird it's flying so flat but it's definitely very close to 1.2 in all of those, which means the above image is quite off for 1000m).

Will try looking for a place to test above 1000m, but I will probably need to switch to a bigger target (was shooting at small signs).


As for M136, this is hitting the target (painted red by paintbrush so you can see it) at 100m:
http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/5107/m136100m.jpghttp://img4.imageshack.us/img4/7063/m136100m2.jpg
This image is same resolution as seen on my 1680X1050 monitor so it can't be made any clearer (unless I force it to run at higher resolution but that won't be huge help either). Can do something similar for other ranges. This obviously is slightly inaccurate as it's done by me hitting printscreen as close as I can before the firing and then saving the image if it's a hit (I'm definitely hitting printscreen before firing but during the fraction of a second between the printscreen and the firing there could be slight movements). Would be better with a mod that disables sway.

Also this seems to hit a tank at 500m reliably with M136:
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/3896/m136500m.jpg

700m:
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/6933/m136700m.jpg

Of course these aren't thoroughly tested, would be nicer to get some images that managed to hit a smaller target than a tank, like I did with the SMAW. It's hard though as you have to remember where the target is on your screen before you aim as your sights cover it.

Li0n
Aug 18 2009, 17:34
Thanks, galzohar =)
For Joining your results:
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/2293/m136p.jpg

galzohar
Aug 18 2009, 23:26
You may want to do some more thorough testing, though, I was just illustrating a point and can't guarantee it's 100% accurate (though it did score a hit on a tiny sign at 100m and hit tanks at 500m and 700m). Also I find it quite absurd that I can even hit a tank at those distances.

My SMAW tests on the other hand are a lot more accurate as they were all done by shooting signs and repeating the same measurements multiple times to verify the accuracy of my data.

nicolasroger
Aug 19 2009, 06:34
nicolasroger, press the space (command mode by default ) and you will see distance.
.

I feel it's like cheating. Mabye we could use the line (on the smaw) like the mil dots for the sniper

CarlGustaffa
Aug 20 2009, 11:25
I'm wondering if the real life common infantery are studying and using tables to the same extent as the simulated soldiers do...

galzohar
Aug 20 2009, 14:54
IRL you study tables MORE extensively than the simulated soldier does. Then again you don't study tables for shooting targets at longer than your effective range (that is, you won't study how much you need to raise an M136 to hit a target at 700m).

mils
Aug 22 2009, 23:20
hey i have a question on ranging a crouched and prone targets, how best can you range them? What would the height of an arna2 character model when its crouched? 1 meter?

galzohar
Aug 23 2009, 01:08
Use shoulder width. It's also more useful IRL for that very reason ;)

And don't forget the spacebar, at least until they fix it.

tsb247
Aug 23 2009, 04:13
These tables are amazing! Thanks!

mils
Aug 23 2009, 12:41
And don't forget the spacebar, at least until they fix it.

spacebar? doh can't believe i didn't think of that!

Kramxel
Aug 24 2009, 22:58
Alright, I believe I have finished my ranging and correction guide. It may not be in the best printer-friendly format, but I believe it to be a good compromise of information vs space. Please let me know what you think.

ARMA 2 Weapon Ranging and Correction Guide (http://wolverine.cameron.edu/~ac113448/ARMA2/ARMA2WeaponRangingAndCorrectionGuide.pdf)



Daniel_Malloy


HUGE thread!!!

Thank you for all the hard work!!!!

It adds so much to the game once you start using it the right way!!!

Parabe11um
Aug 26 2009, 14:20
Thanks, great job, whilst I still miss sight adjustment this at least helps.

galzohar
Sep 1 2009, 22:16
i made a more accurate image for SMAW corrections (both rocket types seem to be the same):

http://img193.imageshack.us/img193/9750/smawadjustments.jpg

It's really about as accurate as a sniper rifle with the proper corrections, only noticeable difference in accuracy is that you can't fire it from prone...

galzohar
Sep 4 2009, 22:32
Still not as accurate as I like, but still pretty damn accurate, most likely way more accurate than anyone will ever need. Above that I was having a hard time hitting anything reliably, so didn't bother trying to find the proper correction.

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3851/m136adjustments.jpg

---------- Post added at 01:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:48 AM ----------

Again, like the M136 it's not 100% but still pretty damn nicely accurate:

http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/167/rpg18adjustments.jpg

Tried also doing it for the RPG7 but it seems too random... If you aim slightly higher you will usually hit though.

Ish
Sep 28 2009, 08:55
I tried doing this for the SMAW. Now i hit like 95% of every shot irregardless of distance.
However, same distance does not mean you should aim the same. It's more complicated than that. The elevation of yourself and the target is more important too learn that just flat ground "distance line" adjustments.

Daniel_Malloy
Sep 30 2009, 05:25
The elevation of yourself and the target is more important too learn that just flat ground "distance line" adjustments.

This is absolutely true in RL, but...

As far as I am aware, there is no need to change aim because of a difference in elevation in ARMA 2. I have tried shooting from the taller buildings in Chernagorsk (I think that's the name, haven't had time to play in a while) with the M24, SVD, DMR, and even that silenced POS that can't hit anything past 400m. I couldn't tell any difference in bullet drop from 200 out to 800 meters (200m was the closest I could get with the height of the building and still be able to shoot off the roof without hitting the imaginary bounderies at the edge). This leads me to believe that either the elevation of the buildings weren't steep enough (thought I find that EXTREMELY hard to believe) or that elevation has no noticable effect on bullet trajectory.

One thing I should mention at this point though is that this was using the absolute distance from shooter to target, not the ground distance... For those who have a hard time understanding this, imagine a right triangle. The bottom line of the triangle represents the ground distance to the target. The side of the triangle (the vertical line) represents the difference in elevation from the shooter to the target. The angled line is what I'm calling the absolute distance (I know there is a proper term for this, but I can't remember it at this time)...

I wonder if it would be possible to test this by somehow getting a player to float maybe 600-800m in the air and then shoot down at various angles... maybe we'd see a difference in a -80 degree shot then...

Sniperdoc
Sep 30 2009, 13:57
Actually... I do believe that elevation in Arma 2 has an effect. I don't know about buildings, but when I was on a large hill or mountain, I had to aim LOW to hit a target. In some cases 3 - 4 mils low. This was only the case when I was on the hill and the target was at the base of the hill. If I was shooting at targets 1200m out, the same did not apply... or I just wasn't observant if they were at near the same elevation as I (like shooting from hilltop over a valley to a gradual sloped field that tops out at relatively the same elevation as the hill).

I know... bad observation skills... bad Doc!!! Bad Doc!!! Bearcrawl back to OP!!!

galzohar
Sep 30 2009, 14:52
Hadn't tested how the game simulates it, but IRL it only matters if you have at least a 15 degree angle to the target, and even then it's only small corrections. But yes, elevation does matter IRL, and what the above are saying about their in-game experience seems to point that in-game it's similar to how it's IRL.

Bottom line is, most of the time elevation does not matter, but if the difference is significant (big angles) then it needs to be taken into account.

snakedoctor34
Oct 14 2009, 15:35
hi, any charts or something like that for moving targets ? or usage of horizantal dots ? simple formula ?

Fincuan
Oct 14 2009, 16:15
I'm pretty sure the effects of elevation are simulated in the game, but in the normal Arma2 shooting scenarios the difference is so small that you don't really have to bother.

Here's how to do it anyway, using the Improved rifleman's rule


adjusted bullet drop = (bullet drop at slant range) * cos inclination

Slant range means distance to target along your line-of-sight
Inclination in degrees
MOA or whatever adjustment you use can be used instead of bullet drop.

An example, which is quite extreme, as it's practically impossible to achieve that kind of incline from that range in A2:
We're firing the M107 to target 2000 meters away down a 15 degree incline.
Out of the top of my head I'll say the come-down for that situation in A2 is 93 MOA, so:


93 MOA * cos 15 = 89.831 MOA

In this case you would be miss a man-sized target if you didn't account for the difference, but should the range be shorter or the incline shallower it wouldn't matter much.

A good article on the stuff:
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/article1.html

Hbomber110
Oct 15 2009, 03:33
I dont think its as eazy as trigonometry , but it sure is a shortcut.

Its like playing golf, it harder if your target is higher

Ish
Oct 15 2009, 05:54
This is absolutely true in RL, but...

As far as I am aware, there is no need to change aim because of a difference in elevation in ARMA 2. I have tried shooting from the taller buildings in Chernagorsk (I think that's the name, haven't had time to play in a while) with the M24, SVD, DMR, and even that silenced POS that can't hit anything past 400m. I couldn't tell any difference in bullet drop from 200 out to 800 meters (200m was the closest I could get with the height of the building and still be able to shoot off the roof without hitting the imaginary bounderies at the edge). This leads me to believe that either the elevation of the buildings weren't steep enough (thought I find that EXTREMELY hard to believe) or that elevation has no noticable effect on bullet trajectory.

One thing I should mention at this point though is that this was using the absolute distance from shooter to target, not the ground distance... For those who have a hard time understanding this, imagine a right triangle. The bottom line of the triangle represents the ground distance to the target. The side of the triangle (the vertical line) represents the difference in elevation from the shooter to the target. The angled line is what I'm calling the absolute distance (I know there is a proper term for this, but I can't remember it at this time)...

I wonder if it would be possible to test this by somehow getting a player to float maybe 600-800m in the air and then shoot down at various angles... maybe we'd see a difference in a -80 degree shot then...

It's naturally a smaller difference with objects weighing less and moving faster (bullets). I was specifically targeting the SMAW "issue" though :)

vilas
Oct 15 2009, 07:22
nice topic, Daniel , will you have time for some help to P85 ?
i even think that maybe than in future i could fix some BIS optics reticles (changing it) to more real
do you have time ? :)
my scopes are BIS or made by me, but i know they are not real life matching

Bon
Oct 16 2009, 11:59
Thanks everyone for your compliments, I will try to continue making as many of these as are neccessary.

I have created ranging tables for the M107, MK12, DMR, and tested the M40. I have found that the M40 ranging and correction is the same as the M24 (at least, I couldn't tell any difference). Here are the word files for each weapons containing the files. I figured this would be easier than posting a picture until I post my complete guide/tables. I have also included a link to the M24 tables so that those not wanting to wait for me to make them more printer/user friendly can modify these.


NOTE: When the variable scopes are zoomed in, the mil-dots appear to be accurate assuming a 2 meter tall target like with the M24. Another thing to be noted here is that the zero ranges for zoomed and unzoomed are different.

DMR Tables (http://wolverine.cameron.edu/~ac113448/ARMA2/DMR_Tables.doc)
M107 Tables (http://wolverine.cameron.edu/~ac113448/ARMA2/M107_Tables.doc)
MK 12 Tables (http://wolverine.cameron.edu/~ac113448/ARMA2/MK12_Tables.doc)
M24 Tables (http://wolverine.cameron.edu/~ac113448/ARMA2/M24_Tables.doc)


Also, for the printer-friendly tables to come in the compiled guide, what details would you want in them and in what order? I was thinking of making them with Target Height, Correction, and then Range. I was thinking about using only height and correction, but I remembered that you might need to know the ranges and corrections for shooting from an incline. Would you guys also want them to list ranges in 50 or 100 meter increments?


Also from me many thanks to Daniel_Malloy. These tables are very helpful.
I put all the above listed tables in one pdf and provide it on our clans download page so that at least my other clanmates can benefit from them.

Daniel_Malloy
Oct 17 2009, 03:43
vilas,
Sounds interesting, what did you have in mind? Also, what did you mean by P85?

Bon,
Nice to know my tables are valuable. I am sorry though that you had to waste your time in compiling them into one PDF. I had created a guide, but failed to edit my first post on this thread with the URL for people to download. I guess it had gotten lost all the other posts. I have corrected this mistake and have also added it under my sig, so no matter what post someone is looking at, they will always be able to find it.

snakedoctor34
I don't believe that there is anything like that yet. I would recommend downloading Kronzky's Movable Target Range (http://www.armaholic.com/list.php?c=a2_sp_missions). I guess you could go through the process of estimating range, the person's perpendicular speed, and bullet travel time.

galzohar
Oct 17 2009, 13:58
We still need tables for assault rifles ;)

logion
Oct 17 2009, 16:00
Great guide, Daniel.

Might I ask how you estimated the range while testing? The editor seems to lack a distance measurement tool, I could use the squares on the map but that only works well for horizontal/vertical directions.
Also, is it possible to fire tracer rounds with every weapon ingame? So far I've only managed to shoot off tracers with a machinegun allthough tracer ammunition is enabled under difficulty settings.

cheers

vilas
Oct 17 2009, 17:23
vilas,
Sounds interesting, what did you have in mind? Also, what did you mean by P85?


P85 is Project 85 mod, addons of nearly 200 weapons, 85 units, 100 vehicles ...
addon pack about 8 countries , war that happens in ca. 1985 in Central Europe
link is in my signature
weapons list (to look how many of them) is here:
http://www.armaholic.eu/vilas/85temp/a2_p85_class_w.txt
if you need know more, please visit first link in my signature

Lonestar
May 21 2010, 15:59
This Weapon Ranging and Correction Guide is a very good idea :)

However the link in the first post is broken.

The guide is now hosted at ArmaHolic (http://www.armaholic.com)


http://www.armaholic.com/datas/users/3-animation.png (http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=6462)
ArmA 2 Weapon Ranging and Correction Tables (http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=6462)

Enjoy :yay:

ps: Thank you Bon for the compiled pdf

walker
Feb 28 2011, 19:40
Hi all

Added a section in ArmA II hints and tips including a link to this thread and to the range tables pdf.

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/ArmA_II_Hints_and_Tips#Learning_to_shoot.21

Kind Regards walker