View Full Version : Australian Refugee problem
el Gringo Loco
Jan 28 2002, 17:54
What really makes me sick is the way Australians think they have to handle the refugee problem in their country.
I don't know if you saw the pictures on the news about the prisons where the australian put war refugees but it is in one word AWFUL!
If you ask me, Howard is one big Nazi! Don't these people realise that the refugees are also human beings. It all started with a ship full of refugees a couple of months back which were dumped on some small island because australia refused the refugees entry in their "very small" country with almost no place for people to live. Refugees who made it to Australia are put in prison camps in the middle of the desert surrounded by 15 feet barbed wire fencing in the scorcing australian heat.
"Concentration camps, the Aussie way" Sickening to watch.
Today I saw pictures of children vowing to commit suicide if the situation won't become any better. Refugees are jumping inside the barbed wire concertinas as a last resort to get to the hospital were the situation is considered more bearable for the refugees.
We are all talking about the americans treating the al-qeada members in a bad way. But let me tell you, those criminals have a pretty luxury confinement compared to war refugees in australia. Remember these people fled their countries because there is a war going on, these aren't economical refugees.
Most of the economical refugees end up in europe.
One Last word.
Seemingly the australian people are content with the situation because Howard is doing pretty fine in the polls. They seemingly don't care that the refugees are also human beings and should be entitled to the same human rights as they are.
Did the australians forget what their forefathers were?
right, <span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>PRISONERS!!</span>
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1780000/images/_1783347_woomeraap300.jpg
the camp outer perimeter
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1780000/images/_1781269_sign300ap.jpg
The reaction from the warmhearted aussie community
You cannot let everyone in, if u let most of these people in to your country they would dissapear as they have done in the UK, personally i dont really like refugees alot of the time they just live of benefits and this comes from a person that live in the same area as they did. The way the australians are dealing with it is acceptable in my eyes and they aint Concentration camps it's better than putting them in council houses and paying them 300 pounds a week because they have 6 or 7 children.
madmike
Jan 28 2002, 20:19
What I fell about refugees is that if they have nothing to offer your country why should you let them live there and pay for them
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (madmike @<hidden> Jan. 28 2002,22:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What I fell about refugees is that if they have nothing to offer your country why should you let them live there and pay for them[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Exactly.
Frizbee
Jan 28 2002, 21:09
Being an Australian, I can tell you that the Refugee problem as it is now, didn't start with a boatload of people a few months back. It started in the early nineties, and has continued since then getting steadily worse, with more idiotic and violent illegal immigrants targetting Australia as the place that they would like to break the law to get into.
At Woomera, (The Detention Centre) they live in old miners huts. (Which Australian workers used to live in before the mines at Woomera were closed) They are fed, three times a day (which is more than they supposedly got before they came).
They have air conditioning to protect them from the heat (Not even our schools have air conditioning, which is down right disgusting, giving these law breakers such conditions)
And they are given medical and detal care while they wait for their refugee status to be processed.
How do they repay us? by rioting, setting fires and attacking Australian workers at the centre. By trying to escape, sewing their lips together in protest at being arrested for illegally entering our country, and attempting suicide.
Are these really the sorts of people YOU say we should let into OUR country???
They aren't even true refugees, as TRUE refugees would not be able to pay people smugglers hundreds of thousands of dollars to smuggle them into Australia. True refugees would be applying for legal entry into the country and political asylum.
To hell with all you do-gooders who say "oh but you should let them roam free because they came across in little boats at the risk to their lives" I say GOOD RIDDANCE!.
I for one, and everyone with a brain (ie. everyone except the do-gooder's) thinks the same, do not want someone who riots and acts like a criminal wandering the streets of my country as a citizen.
Also, if they were truly fleeing political persecution or a war zone.. do you not think that they would be happy to remain a few months (6 or so) behind a chain link fence in good conditions, until we make sure they don't have any diseases or criminal links, so that they can become citizens and free people?http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif?
I know If i was fleeing political persocution I would be quite happy to put up with one little fence for half a year if It meant i was SAFE.
But no... to hell with us they say... to hell with this fence. We want to come over illegally, breaking several laws, and we want to be accepted NOW... we want jobs NOW... we want a Visa.... NOW... and we want the rest of our family over... NOW.
You say John Howard is a nazi for his treatment of the illegal immigrants??? No... he's taken a soft approach on them by not sinking their ships and sending them back to the countries they came from, billing that country for the fuel spent flying them back.
He's taken the soft approach by not machine gunning them in the water when several boats have tried ramming Australian Warships to sink them or to prevent pursuit.
And he's taken the soft approach by not sentencing them to life imprisonment for their crimes, and for the attempted rape that one of them tried on Christmas Island.
If you like them so damn much. YOU open YOUR doors and accept them into YOUR home. http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
There... I feel better now.
Frizbee
Jan 28 2002, 21:14
Oh and sorry about the ultra-long post http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Placebo
Jan 28 2002, 21:16
L24A you write these "articles" yourself or just copy and paste them from somewhere?
It seems you have this habit of popping up from nowhere posting these long rants that are blinkered, biased, one sided and not presenting full facts, is there any particular reason for this? You like to start a heated debate? Or you just work your way around the nations finding the worst aspect of it you can and posting it on the Opf forums?
madmike
Jan 28 2002, 21:26
I dont read the long posts becuase I find them hard to read and mostly boring http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
Frizbee
Jan 28 2002, 21:36
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (madmike @<hidden> Jan. 28 2002,23:26)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I dont read the long posts becuase I find them hard to read and mostly boring http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Well, thats why I made mine in nice easy-to-read sentences so that it could be followed easily.. and the boring sentences skipped.
Thehamster
Jan 28 2002, 21:38
Frankly I don't think this sort of topic is enlightening any one in these forums. People who don't read the papers are hardly going to bother reading this topic at all. All it really seems to be doing is flaming Australia over such a small matter that it really does not affect the world in great way.
madmike
Jan 28 2002, 21:49
most countries have problems like this for the US its Mexicans, for Britian its Kosovo/Bosnia/Albania/Romania/+ loads more but it doesnt seem that the government are doing anything, they let them in and if they get in illegaly the people at the top seem to feel sorry for them http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Give them a house, lots of money, clothing, education, lots of other stuff for free, etc
Frankly I don't think this sort of topic is enlightening any one in these forums.
Me either.. not this anti-aussi gove one, and not the 2 dozen anti-US gove that pop up every other fucking day.. based largley on biased narrow minded propagandaist bullshit... if this one gets deleted for having such a moronic content so should teh other anti-US threads that are raging right now...
sad to admit.. its nice to see some other country besides the US being picked on by the resident do-no-wrong idiots. http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Assault (CAN)
Jan 29 2002, 04:01
Is it just me? or does it seem like all these "do-gooders" fall to the left side of politics? I'm sick of all these damn bleeding hearts.
I would have to agree with Wobble and Placebo here, I am growing a bit tired of the anti-U.S. posts and the posts that are put here just to start some kind of stupid argument.
*sigh...*
Tyler
Is it just me? or does it seem like all these "do-gooders" fall to the left side of politics? I'm sick of all these damn bleeding hearts.
im sure you are, untill the day a war rages in your nation and you seek refuge in a other nation..
i quess many confuse symphaty with weakness...and ignorance with strenght.
I would have to agree with Wobble and Placebo here, I am growing a bit tired of the anti-U.S. posts and the posts that are put here just to start some kind of stupid argument.
i agree on the anti-us thing...but arguments, thats partly what a forum is for...west tank vs east tank for example.
second_draw
Jan 29 2002, 04:34
here's my two cents
ppl (especially these "do-gooders" mentioned previously) should realise that whinging & whining about political issues, will not make a difference to us. (speaking on general gaming forum public's behalf) We have more than enough biased opinions from our own local media outlet.
speaking as an australian i would say that i would allow these refugees into the country just by checking their criminal records or whatever of these refugees... and as potential australian citizens, i would punish them just like any other australian. Burning down goverment property (the dwellings the refugees are living in) is an offense by australian law and always has been a law, so in such i would punish the law breakers. Having a criminal record is not one of the desirable properties in a potential australian citizen (weather the law was broken in aus or elsewhere) so would probably be not allowed a visa. simple really. of course simple pathetic laws in other countries could be ignored.
Assault (CAN)
Jan 29 2002, 04:38
i agree on the anti-us thing...but arguments, thats partly what a forum is for...west tank vs east tank for example.
Yes Pete, but that one (tank argument) didn't start off by calling the leaders of other nations "Nazis".
im sure you are, untill the day a war rages in your nation and you seek refuge in a other nation..
i quess many confuse symphaty with weakness...and ignorance with strenght.
Can't say I do. http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
L24A's post didn't seem to touch on any real facts. He just looked at one side of the story and bitched and moaned about it. Something like: "oh no!, those poor poor people, thats horrible, Howard is a Nazi"
I grow tired of shit like that very fast. Australia has had immigration problems for years, this is how they deal with it. Unfortunately Australia or anyone else can't let in every single person who wants a good life, there is only room for so many.
I doubt there will ever be a war on Canadian soil, if there was, I would be fighting in it, not fleeing.
Tyler
P.S., hey Second_Draw, its nice to see you back! I thought we lost you in the forum shuffle. http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
second_draw
Jan 29 2002, 04:51
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (L24A @<hidden> Jan. 28 2002,19:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Did the australians forget what their forefathers were?
right, <span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>PRISONERS!!</span>[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I just glanced over this quote. I too also know of history of other countries. Lets say i know a bit about american history.
I know over 100 years ago, the entire (well nearly) black (not being racist) population was enslaved..... does mean that all the blacl populations great whatevers were slaves & somehow that current black americans are still connected with being slaves. Not a very good egsample but at least i tried
Here is another stab at what i'm trying to get across.... Yes, australian was "started" by making it a prison type thingy but iif a country was started by building whorehouses (not bad)... does that mean current generation of this country are still connected with these whorehouses
& one more whack..... is it even relavant that allegedly our "forefathers are prisoners"?
second_draw
Jan 29 2002, 04:55
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Assault (CAN) @<hidden> Jan. 29 2002,06:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">P.S., hey Second_Draw, its nice to see you back! I thought we lost you in the forum shuffle. http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I'm coming back in phases.... new year, new harder work.... getting more off the topic i prefered the old forum (the last one). I'm not sure if i will comeback to this forum for good,if you know what i mean.. does that help?
p.s. nice to know ppl miss me http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Longinius
Jan 29 2002, 05:19
Well, nazi or not the situation is handled in a bad way. I am not thinking about the solution with the camps, I am not informed enough to comment on it. It seems like a good idea, as long as they are treated fairly.
What I AM talking about is stuff like the incident with that boatload of refugees that was refused to dock. The boat that was kept at sea while people on it were dieing. THAT is fucked up. Like someone said, the refugees are people to. I think there is a lot of closet racism going on all over the world because if they had been "white" the situation would have been resolved much faster.
As for the refugees not being real refugees, that's a load of bull. Some, even most, might have been rich by their nations standard. Does that make them less of a refugee? You telling me that just because you have the means to escape a shitty situation you can't? I don't buy that. I hope you don't either.
This reminds me of all the bleeding heart idiots who said the US was being cruel and unusual when it would send the coast guard out, get them to pick up the rafting Cubans trying to get here.. then take them back to Cuba.. no charges pressed, no abuse.. just a hot meal and a ride back to from whence they came..
I remember some idiot posting footage of a coast guard blowing the hell out of some EMPTY raft with its deck gun.. saying the US was murdering Cuban refugees.. when in fact its commin practice the the coast guard to destroy large floating objects (such as makeshift rafts) so that they do not pose a hazard to other boats..
some people are just fucking dumb.
el Gringo Loco
Jan 29 2002, 09:12
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">L24A you write these "articles" yourself or just copy and paste them from somewhere?
It seems you have this habit of popping up from nowhere posting these long rants that are blinkered, biased, one sided and not presenting full facts, is there any particular reason for this? You like to start a heated debate? Or you just work your way around the nations finding the worst aspect of it you can and posting it on the Opf forums?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
No, instead of some of the moderators 'round here I've just some brain cells left which are working fine. I'd like to see how other people think about certain objects.
I don't copy and paste without saying I did so. My nationality is dutch which reflects in the way I write english. You out of all ones should notice as you are from great britain that my english grammar isn't perfect.
Give me one reason why I shouldn't post my personal views in this forum? Maybe you didn't notice but every post is biased, you should have a better look! I'm just a bit more critical and sceptical than most people around here, is that a crime?
If you'd like me to stop posting just say so and I stop.
There's only one thing you can't blame me on, I don't write spam, I don't flame and I let the forum members in their dignity.
I already understood that you yourself are more interested in the 100th "how old are you thread" or the 1000th "where are you from thread". Well that's you personal choice. Personally I think you're the most biased moderator around here, closing one spam thread, while happily replying in an other one. So I don't see why you should doubt my way of posting.
Next time I will adhere to your views and post a "what assault rifle do you like the best thread" while 90% of the forum members never held a assault rifle in their own hands, loose from the fact that 99% on this forum never had fired one!
But like I already said. If I don't match your profile as a example forum member, just say so and I''m gone.
Meanwhile get off my back and get your moderating act together! http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
PS.
Yes I do pop out of nowhere.
How come?
Unlike the 3000+ posts members I do have a social life and I do hold a nice job. So I can't be bothered by spending all my evenings behind a computer monitor replying to all the interesting threads on this forum. But hey I didn't know that this forum is only accessible for people without social lives which can spend a minimum of 3 hours per evening replying to some of the lamest threads ever on this forum.
Yes I feel sorry for real refugees but most of these so called refugees have had to pay $15-20,000 aus to get to australia if they are refugees how come they can find that sort of money if they just let them in they will just go walkabout like they do in the uk. When they were taken to asia then demanding to be taken to australia if where ever they came from was so bad then hey you would be grateful to be taken anywhere wouldn`t you.Some are just trying to take the short cut.Well there is my 2 cents.I know how hard it is to get in through the proper migration visas it took me a Year and a half to obtain a business migration Visa. http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif but hey it was worth it in the end
I think that west shouldn't have taken immigrants, at least not from islamic countries because an islamic minority makes islamic terrorism possible. WTC-attack wouldn't have happened if we wouldn't have let arabs come to western countries.
And I think that we should banish all illegal immigrants from west and after that execute all illegal immigrants who try to come western countries or sink their boats (by shooting them). That should make people in poor countries less willing to come to west.
Placebo
Jan 29 2002, 12:41
Umm sure, whatever, bye bye now Someone http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
MrLaggy
Jan 29 2002, 12:53
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (L24A @<hidden> Jan. 28 2002,19:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Seemingly the australian people are content with the situation because Howard is doing pretty fine in the polls. They seemingly don't care that the refugees are also human beings and should be entitled to the same human rights as they are.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
It's easy for bleeding-hearts to pretend that everyone deserves their "human rights" when they're in a country far away. It's much harder when they're on your doorstep, and expecting you to pay their bills... which is why "rightsism" is on its way out.
You can either have a welfare state or free immigration, you can't have both: and the Australians have obviously chosen the welfare state. No country will survive long if it allows skivers to move in and live off the back of hard-working tax-payers, and with welfare states on their last legs as it is, the last thing they need is yet more people to pay for. If you disagree, why not sponsor one of those illegal immigrants so they can move to your country, where you'll pay the bills?
Personally I'd eliminate the welfare state and have a five-minute residency visa application for productive foreign workers with no record of serious crimes... but in this world as it stands we have precisely the opposite: it's relatively easy for skivers and unskilled workers to sneak into a country, yet it takes a year or more for productive, skilled workers who'll be a benefit to the economy to get their visas through official channels.
christophercles
Jan 29 2002, 14:09
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (L24A @<hidden> Jan. 29 2002,03:54)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Did the australians forget what their forefathers were?
right, <span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>PRISONERS!!</span>[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
1. The indonesians, instead of taking IN refugees, put .50 in the hull of thier ships and cast them away. We took them in, and gave them better treatment than many of our citizens are getting, and they go and riot, because thier applications for visa's, arnt being processed fast enough.
2. Our forefathers wernt prisoners. Many of the passangers in the first fleet were prisoners, yes, but over the just 30 years after the first fleet, they were outnumbered by serveral thousand times by LEGAL immigrants. I do not know of a single person who i have ever met who has criminal ancestory, and even the one person who i DO know who had someone in thier family in the first fleet, he was a british marine. Australia is mostly made up of LEGAL immigrants, who didnt break the law to come here, and who didnt riot and threaten to kill themselves because they wernt being processed fast enough.
3.These people are illegal immigrants, who havnt just been sent back to thier countries, they have been granted (partly) refugee status, and are being processed right now.
Get your facts strait before attacking my country.
christophercles
Jan 29 2002, 14:20
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @<hidden> Jan. 29 2002,15:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well, nazi or not the situation is handled in a bad way. I am not thinking about the solution with the camps, I am not informed enough to comment on it. It seems like a good idea, as long as they are treated fairly.
What I AM talking about is stuff like the incident with that boatload of refugees that was refused to dock. The boat that was kept at sea while people on it were dieing. THAT is fucked up. Like someone said, the refugees are people to. I think there is a lot of closet racism going on all over the world because if they had been "white" the situation would have been resolved much faster.
As for the refugees not being real refugees, that's a load of bull. Some, even most, might have been rich by their nations standard. Does that make them less of a refugee? You telling me that just because you have the means to escape a shitty situation you can't? I don't buy that. I hope you don't either.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Nobody died there, all the people needing medical attention were taken asshore and treated properly. They arnt real refugees, they are illegal immigrants who want to fast track the immigrations lines and get free welfare, and then dont do anything because they dont have any real official records to be put on the work for the doll scheme. Im all for taking in the refugees who are in dire trouble and need help, the ones from wartorn countries, and the legal immigrants who just want to come to australia by doing it the right way, but if they feel that they have a right to do it illegally, they should be treated as prisoners, because they did the wrong thing.
Someone brought up the example of them paying heaps of cash to get a ride on the boats. So if i paid a criminal a million dollars to kill my nextdoor nieghbour, would you just say, hey look at how much money he spent, he must have needed it really badly?
168GRN HPBT
Jan 29 2002, 15:00
As stateb up the page is the fact that most of these people (refugees) are nothing more that que jumpers, as the vast majority of the payed around $20.000AUD to get a boat ride here (OZ), in one case I know off a family paying around $60.000AUD for the boat ride.
Also something that should not be over looked, is the fact that only a small percentage of Australia is habitable, mostly the outer edge and that’s only around 60%. Of the outer edge. Our resources are really only able to sustain our current population. This may sound far fetched but trust me the land mass of Australia is only able to handle 25million tops, these figures I found came from the CSIRO which is the Australian governments science labs.
Over all I am not against real refuges, but as for these que jumpers, well send them back to whatever rock they came from.
Longinius
Jan 30 2002, 05:28
"So if i paid a criminal a million dollars to kill my nextdoor nieghbour, would you just say, hey look at how much money he spent, he must have needed it really badly? "
So you think commiting murder is equal to fleeing your land and trying to immigrate to a new one? This explains a lot...
168GRN HPBT
Jan 30 2002, 05:50
[QUOTE]So if i paid a criminal a million dollars to kill my nextdoor nieghbour, would you just say, hey look at how much money he spent, he must have needed it really badly? "
So you think commiting murder is equal to fleeing your land and trying to immigrate to a new one? This explains a lot...
WTF?http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif I was saying that the majority of the refuges that we are getting at the moment are economic refuges, (you know they want to come here to make more and more $$$$ and to start with they are loaded, as they have 20grand to spare) these are the ones I don’t like. The people that have been persecuted in there homeland because the government is all fucked up, I feel they are welcome here. Also a note that a large number of theses people are from Afghanistan, as far as I can see there is now no reason why they should stay here, there country is now no longer living under the Jack Boot of the Taliban, so I say send them back to help rebuild Afganistan.
Longinius
Jan 30 2002, 05:56
"Also a note that a large number of theses people are from Afghanistan, as far as I can see there is now no reason why they should stay here there country, is now no longer living under the Jack Boot of the Taliban"
And this would make their situation any better? It was worse even before the Taliban. While it is a tad more stabile right now, it is far from good. They have no infrastructure, health care is shot to pieces, there are no paying jobs, getting food for your family is not something taken for granted. I for one would not want to live in such a shit hole.
The problem is not that we have refugees. The problem is WHY we have refugees. We have refugees because these people KNOW they will not succeed in their own country. Even some of the richest people there don't even have the same standard as a middle class citizen here in Sweden. If I lived in such a place, I would try to get to "the promised lands" aswell. If "the west" want to stop the stream of refugees those people have to be helped in their home country, not processed in ours. Its fucked up, but that is the way it is.
168GRN HPBT
Jan 30 2002, 06:38
Are you an Australian Longinius
NOTE: i have lived there my farther was a forman on the construction of the mines when i was a kid and trust me they live better than we did , we dident have air-conditioning they do
Longinius
Jan 30 2002, 06:54
No, I am Swedish. The refugee problem is worldwide though. You get them on boats, we get them in containers and trailers.
168GRN HPBT
Jan 30 2002, 07:10
Well that explains all
Unless you have the time to sit down a read what’s really going and be here on the ground then you will not have a grasp on the situation. The world media would have you bleave that the are just protesting in Woomera this is not so we have them all over the country and they are all complaint that they should be let into the country with out being processed (back ground checks). Today I have watched the BBC and CNN and the view they are giving is not what is really happening there. Trust me this is no shit, if anyone out there can say that they would let potential criminals strait in to there country then they MUST be fucked in the head, there is no other way to put it, because really we don’t know the history’s of these people, also as I sit here the Australian Afghan counsel has just come out and said that its time for all afghans to return home and help rebuild the country. So what else is there to say ???The real refuges are welcome but the ones that are coming here paying 20Grand and have change to spare can go fuck them selves.
christophercles
Jan 30 2002, 07:16
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @<hidden> Jan. 30 2002,15:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">"So if i paid a criminal a million dollars to kill my nextdoor nieghbour, would you just say, hey look at how much money he spent, he must have needed it really badly? "
So you think commiting murder is equal to fleeing your land and trying to immigrate to a new one? This explains a lot...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
i never said that, im just saying, that paying to break the law, isnt a get out of jail free card.
christophercles
Jan 30 2002, 07:29
areMay i also mention how "badly" they are being treated.
They have- Satellite television- most australians dont even have this.
Access to computers- They could post here if they wanted to, but instead of doing anything constructive, they go and riot. ( im not saying that it would help the situation by posting here http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif )
They email thier families in whereever the hell they come from, so that means that thier families cant be all that bad off (even thought they are SOOO poor).
They have air conditioning, unlike most australian schools.
The reason that they are rioting, and being basic fucktards, is that they are not being processed. Infact, they are being processed, they just dont like the rate at which it is happening.
They are being treated better than our criminals, even though thats what they are, and so they feel that they have to cause trouble, by being idiots, and demanding that they be processed infront of legal, non-law breaking people escaping the lives where they dont have access to email everyday and the other luxuries that bring the ability to pay 20,000 dollars to break the law.
168GRN HPBT
Jan 30 2002, 07:31
christophercles sory about that , i wasen't having a go at you just they people that arnt here , and still pretend to know whats going on , i have mis-read your post in one of my replys
christophercles
Jan 30 2002, 07:34
Also, i just noticed on the news, that the government hasnt changed its stance on the situation, yet the "refugees", and i use the term lightly, have chosen to revoke thier claims that they will commit scuicide, and thier hunger strikes. So thier need to jump the que is dire enough to need to cause controversy, and show australians as the bad guys, but not badly enough to go hungry.
168GRN HPBT
Jan 30 2002, 07:34
go for it christophercles
i am sick of this Australia bashing
CHEACKUP ON ALL THE FACTS FIRST NON AUSTRALIANS
christophercles
Jan 30 2002, 07:35
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (168GRN HPBT @<hidden> Jan. 30 2002,17:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">christophercles sory about that , i wasen't having a go at you just they people that arnt here , and still pretend to know whats going on , i have mis-read you post in one of my replys[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
np http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Longinius
Jan 30 2002, 07:45
Noone has been bashing Australia here. Critizising is not the same as bashing. Its a shame if you think it is. Like you stated, those of us who are not there only know what media tells us. And like I said, I am not informed enough to comment the camps and rioting. And I am not commenting that for this very reason.
However, thinking this is a unique problem to Australia is very naive and uniformed. Most of the western nations are having this problem. Sweden has had it for years. The refugees might arrive with boat or by container, that does not matter. The point is that they DO arrive.
168GRN HPBT
Jan 30 2002, 08:03
Don’t worry Longinius I don’t think its just an Australian problem as the title of this topic will tell you this was a stab at my country, and I am sure no mater what country your from you would have reacted the same way.
I wasn’t having a go at you, just the moron who started the topic
Also I am always astounded at how the media, be it Australian or word twist the facts to what they see as the popular view, when this all started the Australian media was on the side of the Boat People until a phone pole, that made them realise that 89% of the Australian public was with the Australian government, some of the other poles showed a support rate of up to 95%.
It’s a shame that in this day and age with the technology we have be it Internet and TV we can still be so ignorant and blinded to the facts, who ever controls the news controls the dumb people . as there are few people who can sift through the shit they spew out :-))
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">fucktards[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
ROFLOL!!!
I will jot this one down for future refrence!!
MrLaggy
Jan 30 2002, 12:21
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (168GRN HPBT @<hidden> Jan. 30 2002,07:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I was saying that the majority of the refuges that we are getting at the moment are economic refuges, (you know they want to come here to make more and more $$$$ and to start with they are loaded, as they have 20grand to spare) these are the ones I don’t like. The people that have been persecuted in there homeland because the government is all fucked up, I feel they are welcome here.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
So, um, you're happy to take in people who'll be living off welfare or flipping burgers, but you're not willing to take in people who'll bring money and useful business skills into Australia? Don't you think you have that somewhat backwards?
168GRN HPBT
Jan 30 2002, 12:40
HMMMM gee let me think NO http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif if these peolpe want to get here (Australia) then they should have to go through the same process as all the other Immigrants, rather that short circuit the system we have the system for a reason, its not there so that every reffo with some $$$ can just come here and live, if they are the people that we want in Australia then they will be aloud to move here same as every other country, why these people think they are better than all the other's I don’t know, really I don’t give a flying fuck, they should try the correct way, and if they don’t like that they can get fucked. It’s that simple
KingBeast
Jan 30 2002, 12:46
As mike mentioned earlier, we get a lot of Kosovans and Bosnians and such coming over to the UK. This is immediately clear to me, as loads of them work in factories (where I am, processed meat production lines)
And they are always getting into fights and stabbing eachother.
This post hasnt really got a point, I jsut thoguht I would mention what happens where I am http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Red Oct
Jan 30 2002, 18:50
where are these refugees that are in Australia commin from?
second_draw
Jan 30 2002, 22:20
They come from where-ever to indonesia then get in a boat & head for cape york or the pointy bit & the top right of australia cause indonesia is really close to aus & that's were all the smugglers are
168GRN HPBT
Jan 30 2002, 22:49
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They come from where-ever to indonesia then get in a boat & head for cape york or the pointy bit & the top right of australia cause indonesia is really close to aus & that's were all the smugglers are[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Close they are mostly from the Middle East -Afghanistan, yes they do gather in Indonesia but they don’t land on the cape (the pointy bit) they mostly land on the west coast of the landmass (Western Australia) they have also been known to arrive along the coats of the Northern Territory,
When I live in the uk it got rather out of hand there was a situation in wapping Close to the city of London where the goverment had built multi million pound flats for some banglidesh migrants/refugee they refused to move in because the toilet was facing the wrong way mad mad mad and another situation where a refugee brought his wives with him and kids demandefd houses for them got 2 houses sky tv etc and benifits of Ł30,000 more than some people earn in a year and runs around in a new merc`y how crazy is this.
Just something to think about.
Red Oct
Jan 31 2002, 01:38
which is probley why germany doesnt except hardly any forieners to become citizens, smart people
second_draw
Jan 31 2002, 05:09
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (168GRN HPBT @<hidden> Jan. 31 2002,00:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">....but they don’t land on the cape (the pointy bit) they mostly land on the west coast of the landmass (Western Australia) they have also been known to arrive along the coats of the Northern Territory......[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I know ppl from up along the north queensland coastline(eg. i have relies there) & i heard of stories of ppl smugglers hiring/renting houses for top dollar off ppl in the townsvile area. But then it really is up to the weather(wind blowing ships around) & the smugglers.
America takes in EVERYONE(well almost)
South florida is called cuba.south west of america brings in lots of mexicans.east coast lots europeans(bosnias,maybe some others),west coast brings chinese(or anyother asian country),russians on both coast.middle-east mostly northeast of america,I don't really care ,because i know how i got here.I only got one problem,You know the people that come to our country don't have to pay taxes ,most of the time gets welfare checks,and other free stuff,So people like me that can't pay for something(college or something like that),they will get it free.Plus they get like 20,000 bucks to start their life out here in america.
I think america let's in like 11 million people in a year,and 5 million comes in illegally.I gotta tell those other countries that don't wanna take people in ,TOUGH.
About crime they do,you know when cuba let thousands and thousands of people go on ships to america ? You know in south florida the murder rate shot up ?
Everyone has those problems,why make up a story to just put them in jail.
christophercles
Jan 31 2002, 09:28
The afgani president has ask us to send the refugees back to help rebuild thier country! thats good since the ones who started the trouble were from afganistan!
Comrades
I live in New Zealand (or Neeewww Zeeeelaaannnnd for you Aussies out there - pay attention, I will say what I have to say slow enough so you can understand it http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif ) and our illustrious government thinks it's kinda liberating to take all of Australia's refuse (not Australians but the refugees they have).
Maybe our female Prime Minister is looking for a nobel peace prize or maybe it's because she is a commie pinko lefty who believes that it is our social responsibility to take these people in. Whatever. She is outraged at the Tampa "incident" and now Woomera (or however the hell it is spelt) and wants to take these unfortunates in (I have no doubt that where they have come from was a complete sh!t hole).
As has been illustrated, these "refugees" are not true refugees in a persecuted "going to get killed if I stay here" type or "the desert / ocean / (insert natural disaster of choice) has destroyed everything and I have no chance of living" types, but people who are simply looking for a better lifestyle - ie they are potential immigrants.
Each nation has a process to take in immigrants. Some nations are harder to enter than others. Nations like Switzerland, for instance, make people pay a huge sum of money before you can become a citizen - after all you are benefiting from their established infastructure and social services and why should someone not pay for the privilledge of citizenship, each by their own means. After all, we all pay the price of citizenship in our nations through our taxes.
The ironic part of it is, most of these "refugees" were the middle class citizens of the countries they came from. They had enough money to get out. The truely needy still remain in their countries unable to get out because they lack the funds to do so.
The fact remains that these processes are in place for a reason and for EVERYONE. What right does an individual or group have to expect, or even demand, to be treated differently or as a special case just because you paid some @<hidden> huge sums of money to take them to the promised land? That, my friends, is your problem, not ours.
Does their supposed "refugee" status mean that they can then break the law of the nation they want to live in, or to do as they please? What kind of citizens or society will they help make or contribute to? Educating your kids that if you don't get your way, break the law. We did it and we got citizenship!
A society without laws, or where laws are ignored, is a society in chaos. I do not want to live in a society like that, and I am lucky enough to be able to make that choice.
I have nothing against people who are trying to better themselves or their childrens lives. It is only natural. These people have been dealt a crap hand and were born in a hovel in a jungle, a desert or an god-forsaken part of the Earth. I know in the same situation I would behave no different.
The sad fact is that all governments, corporations and the United Nations all contribute to the global refugee / migration problem. How? By conciously chosing not to do anything about the issues these people are escaping, until they are directly affected. USA - Sept 11. is a classic example where the US went from not caring about Afghanistan to toppling the Taliban to pouring massive aid in to return prosperity & stability. It proves that a difference can be made, where there is willpower and of course, the fickle wind of "public support".
Australia & NZ do not have the economic, political or corporate influence to change the behaviours of those who do. Until then, both nations will suffer from the follow-on effects of illegal immigration, to the detriment of our societies as a whole.
Maybe one day the US military will have to come to NZ and eliminate it's "terrorist government" then and pour billions in aid to rebuild our broken country. And to think it could have cured the illness years before it required hospitalisation.
Something to chew over...
Long live the revolution.
Its coming, man, its coming.
Listen, you can hear it...
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Priest @<hidden> Jan. 31 2002,12:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Comrades
I live in New Zealand (or Neeewww Zeeeelaaannnnd for you Aussies out there - pay attention, I will say what I have to say slow enough so you can understand it http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif ) and our illustrious government thinks it's kinda liberating to take all of Australia's refuse (not Australians but the refugees they have).
Maybe our female Prime Minister is looking for a nobel peace prize or maybe it's because she is a commie pinko lefty who believes that it is our social responsibility to take these people in. Whatever. She is outraged at the Tampa "incident" and now Woomera (or however the hell it is spelt) and wants to take these unfortunates in (I have no doubt that where they have come from was a complete sh!t hole).
As has been illustrated, these "refugees" are not true refugees in a persecuted "going to get killed if I stay here" type or "the desert / ocean / (insert natural disaster of choice) has destroyed everything and I have no chance of living" types, but people who are simply looking for a better lifestyle - ie they are potential immigrants.
Each nation has a process to take in immigrants. Some nations are harder to enter than others. Nations like Switzerland, for instance, make people pay a huge sum of money before you can become a citizen - after all you are benefiting from their established infastructure and social services and why should someone not pay for the privilledge of citizenship, each by their own means. After all, we all pay the price of citizenship in our nations through our taxes.
The ironic part of it is, most of these "refugees" were the middle class citizens of the countries they came from. They had enough money to get out. The truely needy still remain in their countries unable to get out because they lack the funds to do so.
The fact remains that these processes are in place for a reason and for EVERYONE. What right does an individual or group have to expect, or even demand, to be treated differently or as a special case just because you paid some @<hidden> huge sums of money to take them to the promised land? That, my friends, is your problem, not ours.
Does their supposed "refugee" status mean that they can then break the law of the nation they want to live in, or to do as they please? What kind of citizens or society will they help make or contribute to? Educating your kids that if you don't get your way, break the law. We did it and we got citizenship!
A society without laws, or where laws are ignored, is a society in chaos. I do not want to live in a society like that, and I am lucky enough to be able to make that choice.
I have nothing against people who are trying to better themselves or their childrens lives. It is only natural. These people have been dealt a crap hand and were born in a hovel in a jungle, a desert or an god-forsaken part of the Earth. I know in the same situation I would behave no different.
The sad fact is that all governments, corporations and the United Nations all contribute to the global refugee / migration problem. How? By conciously chosing not to do anything about the issues these people are escaping, until they are directly affected. USA - Sept 11. is a classic example where the US went from not caring about Afghanistan to toppling the Taliban to pouring massive aid in to return prosperity & stability. It proves that a difference can be made, where there is willpower and of course, the fickle wind of "public support".
Australia & NZ do not have the economic, political or corporate influence to change the behaviours of those who do. Until then, both nations will suffer from the follow-on effects of illegal immigration, to the detriment of our societies as a whole.
Maybe one day the US military will have to come to NZ and eliminate it's "terrorist government" then and pour billions in aid to rebuild our broken country. And to think it could have cured the illness years before it required hospitalisation.
Something to chew over...
Long live the revolution.
Its coming, man, its coming.
Listen, you can hear it...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
USA,can't fight every war in the world,because europeans(world) will get on herre and tell us how evil america is and can see why 9/11 happen.<--truth.If everyone took care of their backyard we wouldn't have problems.Look at north america,Canada,peace.Mexico,well kinda peace,Just very poor,But they don't fight other countries.
Cuba is really the only problem ,but not really a problem,just the cubans living in america right now is upset at fidel.
168GRN HPBT
Jan 31 2002, 11:42
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I know ppl from up along the north queensland coastline(eg. i have relies there) & i heard of stories of ppl smugglers hiring/renting houses for top dollar off ppl in the townsvile area. But then it really is up to the weather(wind blowing ships around) & the smugglers. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
i diden't say it don't happen but after talking with an uncle that owns at large station up there , he said that it dose happen but just not that much if ever
Comrades
I don't recollect asking the good-ol boys from the US to fight every battle around the world (although the current US administration have taken up a crusade to become the world police). Nor the Eurpoeans, Brazillians, Cubans, Japanese, Chinese, or any other knees owned by any race, creed, religion or cult.
Isn't it time that all first world nations took stock of the global situation and decided that there was enough poverty, sickness, plagues, famine, death, destruction etc. By eliminating these issues, there would be no refugees - apart from those who are displaced due to natural disasters beyond the control of any human.
As a species we have collective humanitarian responsibilities and this is something our societies have forgotten. By helping them to help themselves, this sh!tty old world would become a better place. The give a man a fish or teach the man to fish scenario.
Do you think that Abdul the camel jockey in outer Kreblekistan really cares that 100 people in the UK are killed in a train accident, or 3,000 people in the US are killed in acts of terrorism, when 500,000 of his friends and countrymen have died as the result of famine, disease and poverty? He probably doesn't even know or care where the US is anyway. His focus is on day-to-day survival.
Get rid of the problems Abdul and hundreds of millions like him face every day, and the migration of populations will cease. If we don't do something about it now, the problem will only contine to get worse. The long term outlook is very bleak for everyone, especially us living in the privilleged minority - the first world (yeah, you and me, pal).
Don't tell me it can't be done because it can. All it takes is willpower and determination (look at the US in Afghanistan). And a little humanity and compassion (no religious crap here).
Long live the revolution.
Its coming, man, its coming.
Listen, you can hear it...
Longinius
Feb 1 2002, 05:16
"I only got one problem,You know the people that come to our country don't have to pay taxes ,most of the time gets welfare checks,and other free stuff,So people like me that can't pay for something(college or something like that),they will get it free.Plus they get like 20,000 bucks to start their life out here in america."
Other free stuff? Would you rather have they lived on the street and had to commit crimes to get money? I doubt most immigrants have it very easy when getting legal jobs when they first arrive...
"I think america let's in like 11 million people in a year,and 5 million comes in illegally.I gotta tell those other countries that don't wanna take people in ,TOUGH."
Statistics, US population...
Current Population as of October 1, 1998: 271,000,000
Total number of immigrants into this country: 1,190,900
Legal immigrants: 915,900
Illegal immigrants: 275,000
Now, I know these figures are from 1998, but I very much doubt that the number of immigrants are ten times larger now than then. If they were, it would result in America having a, what, around 8% growth rate / year? Doutbtful.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Priest @<hidden> Feb. 01 2002,06:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">As a species we have collective humanitarian responsibilities and this is something our societies have forgotten.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Just a short biology lesson here. It doesn't work like this with animals, plants or microbes. Species is a group of individuals that can reproduce with each other, that's all. Survival however, is purely a every individual for themselves thing or maybe every flock for themselves (flock is a comprehensible group of individuals, not 5 billion people). So actually it is very natural to screw thy neigbour over in order to further your OWN agenda. When you talk about collective humanitarian responsibilities, it is not something we have forgotten, because it has never been there. Now the question whether we should ADOPT collective humanitarian responsibilities for the first time in history is a question I don't care about.
christophercles
Feb 1 2002, 11:07
Indeed, very good points nz priest dude. Im sorry to hear about your airforce http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Comrade Oligo
You humanitarian streak is at least a mile wide.
Humanitariansim does not have a lot to do with biology. We are not animals in the raw sense. We are different to primitive animals because we can control our concious behavior, we have imagination as well as very complex emotional and social behaviours. We have also evolved as a "civilisation" out of the prehistoric mentality of I'll screw you before you screw me (although thanks to the Corporate world and lack of ethics, this mentality returning to poison many minds).
If we lived like dogs or lions, I would agree that it is survival of the fittest. But we (should) have compassion. A dog does not have compassion, but people do.
Its attitudes similar to what you expressed that have lead our world to become what it is. I think you can take pride in the fact you are one of the millions of people who perpetuate the refugee problem because they don't give a rats ass (unless they happen to be living next to you or in your town).
Once they get to your country or your town, its too late. You need to give refugees a reason to stay where they are, unless it is impossible.
One day the whole third world problem will blow up in the western world's face and it will hurt, and many, many people will cry.
The revolution is coming.
You can see it in their eyes.
christophercles
Feb 1 2002, 11:57
Even though we dont know it, because of the complexity of our lives, we still lives like animals, its just alot more comlicated. All our needs are still based on mating, staying alive, or entertaining ourselves. The latter is what i belive is the biggest reason for the complexity of life today, because that we need to keep ourselves psycologically sound, and that is a need that has become more complex over time, since the human species has evolves to become smarter, the consiousness needs more to stay intact, so its led to a more subdued and not noticed, but still immensly present basing of our lives on the basic needs of humans. Im sure a lion doesnt think that its basing all its actions on its own needs either, but it is.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Priest @<hidden> Feb. 01 2002,06:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Comrades
I don't recollect asking the good-ol boys from the US to fight every battle around the world (although the current US administration have taken up a crusade to become the world police). Nor the Eurpoeans, Brazillians, Cubans, Japanese, Chinese, or any other knees owned by any race, creed, religion or cult.
Isn't it time that all first world nations took stock of the global situation and decided that there was enough poverty, sickness, plagues, famine, death, destruction etc. By eliminating these issues, there would be no refugees - apart from those who are displaced due to natural disasters beyond the control of any human.
As a species we have collective humanitarian responsibilities and this is something our societies have forgotten. By helping them to help themselves, this sh!tty old world would become a better place. The give a man a fish or teach the man to fish scenario.
Do you think that Abdul the camel jockey in outer Kreblekistan really cares that 100 people in the UK are killed in a train accident, or 3,000 people in the US are killed in acts of terrorism, when 500,000 of his friends and countrymen have died as the result of famine, disease and poverty? He probably doesn't even know or care where the US is anyway. His focus is on day-to-day survival.
Get rid of the problems Abdul and hundreds of millions like him face every day, and the migration of populations will cease. If we don't do something about it now, the problem will only contine to get worse. The long term outlook is very bleak for everyone, especially us living in the privilleged minority - the first world (yeah, you and me, pal).
Don't tell me it can't be done because it can. All it takes is willpower and determination (look at the US in Afghanistan). And a little humanity and compassion (no religious crap here).
Long live the revolution.
Its coming, man, its coming.
Listen, you can hear it...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Somalia-They went their to stop all that famine(plus other stuff),then the warlords was killing UN soldiers.After that gun fight ,every un country pulled out,because it's too dangerous.
You can help a country all you want,but someone there is not going like you because they will lose power and try to kill your people.Then they kill the bread man,The bread people leave.
Longinius
Other free stuff? Would you rather have they lived on the street and had to commit crimes to get money? I doubt most immigrants have it very easy when getting legal jobs when they first arrive...
Why should they have more rights then me ?
Current Population as of October 1, 1998: 271,000,000
Total number of immigrants into this country: 1,190,900
Legal immigrants: 915,900
Illegal immigrants: 275,000
Now, I know these figures are from 1998, but I very much doubt that the number of immigrants are ten times larger now than then. If they were, it would result in America having a, what, around 8% growth rate / year? Doutbtful.
I think i messed up the numbers,Maybe it's 11 million lives in america illegally.Do you know,if you can't find a american to do your job you can bring in someone from another country? Other then raise the pay ,or train americans how to do the job ,they go outside the country and find someone that can do it cheaper.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Somalia-They went their to stop all that famine(plus other stuff),[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
No, they went in as mercenaries for the oil companies: the famine nonsense was merely a pretext to convince the gullible that they had some excuse to be there. Now, of course, the oil companies want them to go back, with 'terrorism' as the pretext this time.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Do you know,if you can't find a american to do your job you can bring in someone from another country? Other then raise the pay ,or train americans how to do the job ,they go outside the country and find someone that can do it cheaper.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Better to import workers to America, where they'll pay taxes and buy American goods, than to export the money to them in their home country. Either way, if your job is so low-skilled that a foreigner can do it for less money then you're in big trouble whatever happens.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Longinius @<hidden> Feb. 01 2002,07:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Other free stuff? Would you rather have they lived on the street and had to commit crimes to get money? I doubt most immigrants have it very easy when getting legal jobs when they first arrive...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
If they can't get jobs, why are you letting them in!?!?!!? Most immigrants are either productive workers who'll make a better living for themselves in your country through their own hard work, or skivers who merely want to get all that "free stuff" from other people's hard work that you're so eager to give out.
End the "free stuff" (none of which is free, all of it is stolen from people who work for a living) and the skivers will find another country to go to: as long as people can make a better life skiving off the hard-working taxpayers in developed nations than staying where they are in developing nations, you'll have this problem. Paying them to stay away is no better a solution than paying them to sit in tax-funded accomodation in your country watching TV all day and eating tax-funded chips and drinking tax-funded beer.
el Gringo Loco
Feb 1 2002, 16:42
After sifting through most of the replies on this topic I don't understand why everyone is accusing me of narrow-mindedness.
Almost every reply I've read is probably just as narrow-minded as my opinion. I've read replies which are on the brink of just pure racist thoughts. Tell me, why does everybody think that the refugees in their own country are always economical refugees? Are there no more wars in the world? Since when do afghans, iraqis classify as economical refugees, because your government tells you so or is what you like to think? How many people in your country are really jobless because of the refugee problem....do you actually got a clue.
It's also nice to see that on the first pages of this thread everyone is arguing that the refugees in australia are economical refugees. When I come to page 4 of this thread everyone is acknowledging the fact that the refugees are afghans. (you know from afghanistan, that little peaceful country besides pakistan where no war has raged for thousands of years)
Here are some of your broad-minded opinions on refugees:
"personally i dont really like refugees alot of the time they just live of benefits and this comes from a person that live in the same area as they did."
"if they have nothing to offer your country why should you let them live there and pay for them"
"WTC-attack wouldn't have happened if we wouldn't have let arabs come to western countries."
For all you guys that are arguing that I would sing another tune when those refugees were standing on my doorstep:
I live in the Netherlands.
Fact1: The dutch percentually take in the most refugees per inhabitant of all countries in the world. While we enjoy almost the largest population density of all countries in the world.
Fact2: The Netherlands is widely acknowledged in the whole world as being the country with the best functioning welfare system.
Fact3: The unemployment figure in the Netherlands is the lowest in the whole of europe.
Fact4: The dutch economy is one of the most stable ones in the world. (as acknowledged by lot of foreign politicians)
What does this mean: Taking in of refugees didn't wreck my country's welfare system, economy and didn't leave me and the 99% of the dutch labour force jobless. This means that a lot of the replies made on my initial thread are just as narrow-minded and biased as mine. And it actually says that most of you also don't have a clue on this situation and are just uttering some stupid political prejudices.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (L24A @<hidden> Feb. 01 2002,18:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">When I come to page 4 of this thread everyone is acknowledging the fact that the refugees are afghans. (you know from afghanistan, that little peaceful country besides pakistan where no war has raged for thousands of years)[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
So? I can see some justification for America taking in refugees as compensation for trashing their country multiple times in the last twenty years (supporting the war against Russia, then the Taliban, now the, well, whatever they're called today), but why is it any concern for the rest of us?
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Taking in of refugees didn't wreck my country's welfare system, economy and didn't leave me and the 99% of the dutch labour force jobless.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
So, uh, if Holland is such a great place for refugees, why do so many prefer to illegally enter the UK rather than legally go to Holland for all those great "free" welfare benefits you're handing out?
el Gringo Loco
Feb 1 2002, 17:12
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MrLaggy @<hidden> Feb. 01 2002,18:59)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">When I come to page 4 of this thread everyone is acknowledging the fact that the refugees are afghans. (you know from afghanistan, that little peaceful country besides pakistan where no war has raged for thousands of years)[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
So? I can see some justification for America taking in refugees as compensation for trashing their country multiple times in the last twenty years (supporting the war against Russia, then the Taliban, now the, well, whatever they're called today), but why is it any concern for the rest of us?
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Taking in of refugees didn't wreck my country's welfare system, economy and didn't leave me and the 99% of the dutch labour force jobless.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
So, uh, if Holland is such a great place for refugees, why do so many prefer to illegally enter the UK rather than legally go to Holland for all those great "free" welfare benefits you're handing out?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Because you probably live in england you think that the refugees trying to cross the channel from france to the uk probably make up the bulk of all refugees in europe. Maybe that's what the british media is telling. Believe me every west-europe country gets it fair share. Stating that almost every refugee want's to go to the UK is shortsighted. And based on the fact that you probably see some 100s of refugees trying to cross the channel every night on the british news.
Why shouldn't your or my country take in any war refugees. Because it is their problem not ours.....?
Thought you may wish to read this taken from news page on ninenetwork msn
At least 3,000 Afghan asylum seekers would be happy to take the federal government's promised cash incentive to return home, Afghan honorary consul in Australia Mahmoud Saikal said.
The federal government has promised up to 4,000 Afghans - including 1,100 in detention centres in Australia, Papua New Guinea and Nauru - a cash payment to go home, although the amount has yet to be announced.
Mr Saikal said details were still sketchy, but he was sure many would take up the offer, if only to get out of detention.
"Already I'm aware of probably about 3,000 detainees who wanted to go to Afghanistan, not for any other reason but out of desperation because they were in appalling situation in these detention centres," Mr Saikal told ABC Radio.
"But for them who are prepared to go back, the offer might be something that will give them a moral boost.
"They will go back to Afghanistan with something in their hands to rebuild their life and to rebuild their future."
But he wanted certain assurances for people choosing to return.
"I would like to see a list of them, I would like to know where they will be heading to and I would like to make sure that where they are going to is a safe place before any decision is made," Mr Saikal said.
He said some parts of Afghanistan still lacked security and stability.
But he dismissed concerns by Woomera Afghan detainees' representative Hassan Varasi that the ousting of the Taliban had not changed the situation of the minority Hazaris.
Mr Varasi said they were persecuted long before the Taliban regime and would continue to face trouble.
Mr Saikal acknowledged some Afghans were worried about returning.
"What we are talking about is a group of Afghan nationals who belong to the Hazara ethnic group," he said.
Mr Saikal said the Taliban brutalised Hazaris throughout the country, including Hazarajat from where they originated in central Afghanistan, but the situation was now much better.
"Hazarajat may have some problems but to say that no change is taking place is not right, that there is a change and things are panning together, hopefully, to leave the problems of the past behind us," he said.
http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
brgnorway
Feb 2 2002, 00:47
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (L24A @<hidden> Feb. 01 2002,18:42)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
I've read replies which are on the brink of just pure racist thoughts.
.........And it actually says that most of you also don't have a clue on this situation and are just uttering some stupid political prejudices.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Sad, but true!
No, they went in as mercenaries for the oil companies: the famine nonsense was merely a pretext to convince the gullible that they had some excuse to be there.
It went because Somalia was declared by the UN and several air orginazations to be in an "extreme state of national starvation" and the US had the biggest humanitarian force (food trucks, planes and food) that could be deployed within the time the UN said it was needed by, it also had the needed number troops that the UN determined would be necessary to insure the the foods got to the right people..
It started out as an aid and protection of aid mission, but when the warlord's little sheisters started attacking them it all went to hell.. and of course progressed into a conflict..
I know thats not as exciting as making the US out to be a bunch of evil "mercenaries".. but.. well... go watch a movie or something http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Comrades
I do not think many people believe Americans are all "mercenaries" or bad people.
The vast majority of Americans, Canadians, Afghanis, Pakistanis, Vietnamese, Chinese, Russians, Equadorians, Somalis and even Australians, are basically good people (they do not seek to harm or impose their beliefs/dogma on others for personal gain).
In all cultures you have a minority of people who seek power for their own ends, often by utilising illigetimate means (not within their cultures agreed rules and regulations - e.g. Western Democracies have the judicial and executive branches to affect change) to achieve change for their personal benefit (terrorism, crime, bribery, threats, extortion, undue political influence and so on).
Highly unstable nations or cultures like the Balkans, Rwanda, Somalia, Afghanistan, the Sudan, Chad and even Columbia, have terrible consequences on the majority of people who are innocent by-standers. These regions are under the rule of the gun - those who have the most guns make the rules.
I do not believe Abdul the Camel jockey in Somalia enjoys it when the local warlord decides to rape his family and destroy his crops. But what can he do - he has no guns, no military training and no money to bribe them with. He does what he has to do - either stay and put up with it, or take a chance and head off to the 'promised' land (the West) and make a better life for him and his family.
Does anyone believe the warlords of Somalia are or have ever been stronger than the entire United States industrial-military might? Of course they aren't! Not in 1993 nor in 2002.
If America and Europe REALLY wanted to (ie - had the political will), they could use a fraction of its real power and crush the warlords in Somalia, Rwanda, the Balkans, and anywhere else they sprouted up like pimples. Combine rebuilding the basic infastructure of a country, promoting political and economic stability and providing HOPE to people, refugees would become a thing of the past.
The United States & Europe pre-Sept 2001 did not have the political willpower to remove the warlords in Somalia, stop the slaughter in the Balkans and Rwanda, crush the terrorist/drug cartels in Columbia or tackle any of the other butchery and injustices around the world.
Since then, the west has come under direct attack, and their bubble of comfort has been poped. Now they are lashing out at all threats real and imagined. You have to ask "WHY DID 9/11 HAPPEN?". One answer is because up until then, the average western response to third world problems was "we don't give a rats ass". Ignorance is bliss.
'Islamic Terrorism', the threats of terrorism (non specific) and the refugee problems are all interlinked. One creates the other which perpetuates the other and the cycle goes on and on and on.
Help the third world to help themselves. Not by throwing money, or weapons, or the United Nations (the biggest political joke on the planet - even surpassing the Tongan government) at them. The West needs to get actively involved in these nations to make a difference.
If they don't, they will reap what they have sown - 250 years of imperialism and exploitation. And I don't think there will be enough rats asses to go around all by that stage.
BTW, I dig seeing my message copied and pasted into someone elses reply. Thanks, mate. Its kinda groovy.
The revolution - its getting closer.
You can see it in their eyes and smell it in the air.
Its coming, comrades, its coming...
this was a cutting from 9 network home page
The federal opposition has backed the government's proposal to pay a resettlement package for Afghan asylum seekers willing to return home, but critics say the plan is doomed to failure.
The government yesterday promised up to 4,000 Afghan asylum seekers a cash payment if they returned home.
While refusing to call the money a bribe, Prime Minister John Howard said the payment would be offered to 1,100 Afghans waiting to have their refugee status finalised in camps in Australia, Papua New Guinea and Nauru.
But Immigration Minister Philip Ruddock said up to 4,000 Afghanis currently in Australia, Papua New Guinea or Nauru could qualify when those freed on temporary protection visas were included.
Mr Howard said the scheme was sensible and would be similar to the resettlement sum paid to Kosovar refugees when they returned home in 1999.
Kosovar Albanians were offered $3,000 per adult and $500 for each child to help them resettle at home at the end of Operation Safe Haven.
The payment for Afghans, which would not be available to those already assessed as genuine refugees, could cost taxpayers up to $12 million on top of the $40 million already earmarked to help Afghanistan's reconstruction.
Opposition Leader Simon Crean supported the offer, but called on Mr Howard to reveal its full cost.
But a former Afghan detainee at Woomera, Ahmad Entizami, said he believed the payment was unlikely to attract many of his countrymen, who had better employment opportunities, education and security in Australia.
Mr Howard made the announcement after a meeting in New York with Afghanistan's interim leader Hamid Karzai.
Mr Howard offered Mr Karzai assistance from Treasury and the Reserve Bank to help his country rebuild, while an Afghan government delegation would visit Australia, and possibly Nauru and PNG, to discuss asylum seekers.
ACE_FOFA
Feb 3 2002, 00:31
The problem is being handled by competant people. The media is just selling its trade again
Tampa was indonesia's problem that they palmed off to Australia in that they wouldnt allow the Ship to follow
international 'LAW' and go to the nearest 'port' - this being in Indonesia. The captain didnt want to get shot at so he sailed to Christmas Island which doesnt have a facilities for that size of ship and isnt classified a 'port'.
Australia said stop, our laws are currently not designed to accept these people, follow international law and go to Indonesia. The captain did a poooh and hence it was handled accordingly. With no mistreatment to anyone anywhere.
Current situation with assylum seekers (not refugees) is that they pay smugglers money or fly, sail, drive on commercial transport to get to Malaysia and Thailand, where they zip across the Mallaca straits into Indonesia unnoticed by authorities. Their they meet up with smugglers (criminals in both Indonesian and Australian law) who move them through Indonesia to Eastern Indonesia. Here the smugglers take the rest of their money and pack them into sinking boats and sail them to the nearest Australian coast.
Real refugees are fleeing something, and would cease fleeing it in one of several countries BEFORE reaching Indonesia or Australia.
The people in Detention Centers here are the ones who deliberatly bypassed peaceful nations, spending cash to criminals to bypass Australian Law, Law designed to benefit real refugees.
Feeling sorry for the assylum seekers who have TV, Air Con, Internet, Playground, plenty of food and water all free of charge while they are processed/checked out by government......... is merely being a dope fo the media.
The reason they are desperate is that some of them may now have no money because they gave it to the criminals. Circumstances like this cause delays in processing by the government.
If these people didnt break the law, the system would work properly.
The real problem in solving this dilemma is surely obvious and anyone who continues the media, bleeding heart approach is an idiot.
PS: Many of them are pigs who attack, spit and bite the workers whose job it is to look after them. They destroy TV's and equipment given for use and cause harm to themselves and their fellow assylum seekers. Also they risked their families lives getting here only because they want to get into a wealthy propserous country, not because they had nowhere else to go..... they did indeed travel through many poorer countries than Australia on route to getting here that they could have settled in peacefully. These particular people are bording on lunatics and are also becoming repeat criminal offenders. That is why 80% of Australians dont welcome them here.
PSS: Real Refugees are welcome though. Considering the distance from their homelands real refugees from Middle East dont turn up on our doorstep. Unlike the SE Asian refugees who sailed from their homelands direct after the Vietnam war era.
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