View Full Version : release over steam
Buttabean
Dec 3 2005, 14:54
who would like to see that happen? http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
brataccas
Dec 3 2005, 15:21
definatly not me http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/icon_rolleyes.gif
Against it. Takes an extra chunk of hard disk space, keeps people from playing the game with that retarded decompile crap (internet connection required).
Great idea by Valve, but I think it's going to sail away into the mist like AAE.
rundll.exe
Dec 3 2005, 16:36
And steam is not safe... (you can get every game for free)
dont ask more...
Well I guess the poll shows what people here thinks about steam. There's really not much to discuss.
Big Ofp Fan
Dec 3 2005, 16:51
Devinetivly (hope is it right) against steam. I want a real ArmA CD/DVD in my hand.
If look back how often if I've reinstalled Ofp/res because patches are failed or addons have damed my ofp installation. I would be cracy with steam. (I know you need only one time to register and any new installation only a new log in but I hate steam)
Mr. Cheese
Dec 3 2005, 16:57
Digital Distrubition in it's infancy...in a few years, you'll see alot more of these systems coming up. Steam is the forerunner that has to handle all the bugs and exploits :P
If the game were to be released via Steam, it'd have to have a separate way of confirming purchase for playing on Multiplayer. Separately entered CD Key sent by BIS? Or something similar. Too easy to download Steam Down.
Heatseeker
Dec 3 2005, 17:16
I want my legit DVD rom and printed manual, thank you.
Steam is a nice concept, Autoupdate on start very good, you could also use steam in offline mode to if you want to play singelplayer..
Maybe bohemia could make its own steam concept program..
About to get them on cd, well when buy the game over steam, you will also get them delivered home after you purchase it, just that you will be getting the game download immedelty after you order it is a very big + so you dont have to wait days and even week until you get it..
metallicAL
Dec 3 2005, 17:45
Im for steam if it would mean it gets the freaking game on my PC faster. Thats all that really maters, manuals can be in PDF format.
One thing that steam stops/dramatically lessens is, priate copies of mulitplayer being played. The BIS team deserve every penny they get.
who would like to see that happen? http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
You must be running a steaming fever. Stop that nonsense! http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/huh.gif
Sanctuary
Dec 3 2005, 19:14
No, just no.
Pro, because there won't be a publishener who sets the deadline...
Best example is jsut released Xł.... these was burstin into pieces at the beginning, because of all these damn bugs creeping around.
Steam->Money for the GameStudio itself
Steam->Instant patching
Steam->No illegal copies
Steam->Less bugs
and so on...
Evishion
Dec 3 2005, 19:25
No to steam.. i wanna smell on the manual in real life. not virtually http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/yay.gif
do not say Steam is bad ... i read about some games prepared to be Steam released and they plan to sell retail copies and these will be completely Steam free ....
you don't need use Steam as "only" authorizing system ...
You can use it ONLY and JUST as distribution system ...
and when You think about 6-7 millions of Steam users ...
is worth the time to consider it as "optionable" solution ...
Antichrist
Dec 3 2005, 23:20
Too bad that at the moment Steam is still a buggy piece of crap. I originally installed it more than a year ago when I purchased my copy of HL2, and it is still as bad as was them. Many functions not working properly, flawed game updates, need to be online all the time if you want to play something, uses too much of the CPU etc.
I would love to see this released on steam. It's been very good to me thus far, but I've been building my own systems up from scratch for ages and I keep my system running cleanly. Haven't suffered any problems, was running Half-Life 2 15 minutes after release http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
GODSMACK
Dec 4 2005, 03:12
I don't think steam would be a bad idea. You can always backup the game to disk, and I've never had any of the problems with offline play. It would be great for addon distribution.
SteveVCB
Dec 4 2005, 14:30
If ArmA was released exclusively over Steam, I would not buy it. Simple as that.
If they released it over Steam, then they should have a option of playing single player offline unlike HL-2. You do not need a constant Internet connection to make missions on your mission editor.
If they released it over Steam, then they should have a option of playing single player offline unlike HL-2. You do not need a constant Internet connection to make missions on your mission editor.
what You speak about?
-unplug Network cable.
-start Steam
-You will be informed about Steam unable connect and asked to continue in offline mode or re-try
- choose continue in offline mode
- start HL2
- play HL2 singleplayer
simple ....
Arg, this is making me angree... A lot of people don't know anything about steam and are posting comments, which do influence other people negativly...
You do not need a all time running internet connection for SP mode... http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/banghead.gif
vektorboson
Dec 4 2005, 17:30
-unplug Network cable.
Hahaha!
Sorry, but in OFP neither I need a CD in my drive, neither do I need a connection, neither do I need to unplug my network cable when I want to play it.
This is customer friendly. And I hope that BIS won't punish its customers because others are pirating or cheating.
-unplug Network cable.
Hahaha!
Sorry, but in OFP neither I need a CD in my drive, neither do I need a connection, neither do I need to unplug my network cable when I want to play it.
This is customer friendly. And I hope that BIS won't punish its customers because others are pirating or cheating.
Only the 1.96 patch enabled us to play without a CD in the drive. I suppose they did that on purpose as it's the last patch and it extends the life of the CD's.
vektorboson
Dec 4 2005, 17:52
-unplug Network cable.
Hahaha!
Sorry, but in OFP neither I need a CD in my drive, neither do I need a connection, neither do I need to unplug my network cable when I want to play it.
This is customer friendly. And I hope that BIS won't punish its customers because others are pirating or cheating.
Only the 1.96 patch enabled us to play without a CD in the drive. I suppose they did that on purpose as it's the last patch and it extends the life of the CD's.
Yes, I know, but think about it: Isn't it nice?
Isn't it nice, to play without all the f**king restrictions companies try to force on us?
I rather give those companies my money who are all for fair use, not some obscure distribution- and "spyware"-system.
But I stop here, since this will lead to discussions not allowed on this forum.
Arkblade
Dec 4 2005, 18:27
I don't like Steam.
Reason:
1.) Frequent attestation.
- It is possible to reduce it by off-line mode.
- but, Steam is heavy. and decompression time of the archive is anxious.
I think steam is not for the software of the single-player, off-line, and the edit subject.
2.) It is worried that open architecture disappears.
- This also : about the attestation.
3.) steam is online-based system, and We do not buy software but will buy the use right. (like MMO games)
- if it will be inconvenient for bis and valve (like Bankruptcy), The title on steam is remove and locked, and We will not be able to play it.
- possibly forever. (In the worst case)
- In addition, other similar cases can exist.
steam is a wonderful online system.
and, I think that it is suitable for the title like half-life2. (i like half-life and half-life2)
but, It is not suitable for the title like operation flashpoint.
3.) steam is online-based system, and We do not buy software but will buy the use right. (like MMO games)
- if it will be inconvenient for bis and valve (like Bankruptcy), The title on steam is remove and locked, and We will not be able to play it.
- possibly forever. (In the worst case)
- In addition, other similar cases can exist.
Not true...
A) It is still playable in offline mode....
B)As Valve said, they just need to change one tiny file and steam will never try to contact the internet again...
Arkblade
Dec 4 2005, 18:57
A) play offline mode must need authentication once.
- can't play after locked.
B) Can it be trusted ?
every country has own publisher - as Czech Republic have Cenega and Australia have Atari which release OFP Elite there http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/yay.gif
A) play offline mode must need authentication once.
- can't play after locked.
B) Can it be trusted ?
Well, after it's locked, you won't be able to buy the game either... oO
B)yes, because otherwise you can go to court...
Thunnder Bunny
Dec 4 2005, 19:22
Big NO!!!! on steam. Not really for anyone that doesn't own broadband, and yes there are many that have no other choice than dial up.
I wouldn't confuse the # of steam users as happy campers. It just shows how big HL2 has sold. You wanna play ,you got to have steam.
If I would've known how much crap you have to go through with steam I might have returned HL2 befor installing it. And yes I also re bought HL1 again hoping it would be clean of stain....err....steam but was disappointed.
If BIS could find a way to make a system that wasn't as intrusive as steam but included all bandwidth types in their plans then I might think about it.
-unplug Network cable.
Hahaha!
Sorry, but in OFP neither I need a CD in my drive, neither do I need a connection, neither do I need to unplug my network cable when I want to play it.
This is customer friendly. And I hope that BIS won't punish its customers because others are pirating or cheating.
You used brain when writing this ? i said You DO NOT NEED online connection to "somewhere" when YOu play OFFLINE ...
You dont need to have any media drive just MOBO + HDD, CPU, VIDEO and SOUNDCARD to play single player game like HL2 @<hidden> Steam ....
got the point ?
of course You can play normally in Online mode too ...
or if your post was some sort of irony then sorry but i missed it ...
Big NO!!!! on steam. Not really for anyone that doesn't own broadband, and yes there are many that have no other choice than dial up.
I wouldn't confuse the # of steam users as happy campers. It just shows how big HL2 has sold. You wanna play ,you got to have steam.
If I would've known how much crap you have to go through with steam I might have returned HL2 befor installing it. And yes I also re bought HL1 again hoping it would be clean of stain....err....steam but was disappointed.
If BIS could find a way to make a system that wasn't as intrusive as steam but included all bandwidth types in their plans then I might think about it.
It was said by some developers who are going to release via steam that they NOT need use Steam to auth theirs game ... (in other words no need to run steam after "buy & download" procedure done ...
of course until such game appear i take it with "reserve"
it's going to happen maybe in January 2006 with Red Orchestra : OstFront 41-45 , as this one is based on Unreal Engine 2.5 (yes You hear correct UNREAL game released VIA Steam distribution network) ...
if this happen, Steam will work just as online digital content distribution layer ....
What it sounds like, people doesn't really are into the steam application software. There for have bad arguments about it, If you could take a deeper look into it you will probebly find it a little bit better then you thought about. (Maybe you used it in the early stages of it, and there for might felt buggy)
What if Bohemia Interactive decided to release their upcoming titles thru the Steam network, I would not belive you guys that "We wont buy it", As Bohemia Interactive's games are a class of it own, I would probebly belive that it will catch even more players thru the Steam network. And Yes their upcoming titles will work as good as offline and as online.
And ofcourse you will be able to get it Boxed, with CD/DVD and some kind of manual.
http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/welcome.gif >>> http://www.steampowered.com/
Ex-RoNiN
Dec 4 2005, 23:19
-unplug Network cable.
Hahaha!
Sorry, but in OFP neither I need a CD in my drive, neither do I need a connection, neither do I need to unplug my network cable when I want to play it.
This is customer friendly. And I hope that BIS won't punish its customers because others are pirating or cheating.
You used brain when writing this ? i said You DO NOT NEED online connection to "somewhere" when YOu play OFFLINE ...
You dont need to have any media drive just MOBO + HDD, CPU, VIDEO and SOUNDCARD to play single player game like HL2 @<hidden> Steam ....
got the point ?
of course You can play normally in Online mode too ...
or if your post was some sort of irony then sorry but i missed it ...
You're well out of order here. Posting in such an aggressive manner is frowned upon here.
I do not wish to see such a post from you again.
Antichrist
Dec 5 2005, 00:09
Arg, this is making me angree... A lot of people don't know anything about steam and are posting comments, which do influence other people negativly...
You do not need a all time running internet connection for SP mode... http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/banghead.gif
Unfortunatelly for you I do know Steam. I've been running it for more than a year and my friend, former CS fan, was running it for even longer than that. And we still agree that, although it might be a great idea, it is still a buggy piece of crap. Unlike you I can still remember the nightmare that the release of HL2 was. Unlike you I do see that everytime Steam tries to update one of my games it takes as much CPU power as movie encoding does, or an application that is about to crash. I can't do anything else for that period of time. While simple download manager would've allowed me to download an update and use some other program at the same time. I also remember how "easy" it was to activate offline-mode for HL2 and you also forgot to mention that you cannot really activate it without an active internet connection, which kinda defies the purpose of the offline mode and if you're lucky it will work about 50% of the time. There might be chance that Steam will not be totally crap in 2-3 years, but ArmA is going to be released next year. I don't want to deal with that for ArmA. Do I need to continue? http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/confused_o.gif
Edit: typo.
it's taking up CPU cycles because it checking encryption and uncompressing files etc ...
omg You speaking like such operation should take 1% cpu http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
anyway since v2 when i use cache verification or updating ... even my archaic 2.5GHz AMD handle it w/o any cpu "lag" spike
Antichrist
Dec 5 2005, 08:55
it's taking up CPU cycles because it checking encryption and uncompressing files etc ...
omg You speaking like such operation should take 1% cpu http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
anyway since v2 when i use cache verification or updating ... even my archaic 2.5GHz AMD handle it w/o any cpu "lag" spike
Of course. And millions of people who have that problem are running Pentium 2s? http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif
Balschoiw
Dec 5 2005, 11:08
Steam is simply a no-go for me as I am on ISDN and I do think that a lot of OFP com members still have 8k/sec connections. This renders steam useless. And yes, I have tried it as I was forced to by HL2. Never made a single shot in HL2 because of steam. Thank you very much, but I don´t need/want it for the slow i-net connection reason.
Don´t see the real benefit of it anyway...
Edit:
Before questions arise. Like many others here I have a good inet connection available elsewhere. That´s good for downloading major updates and/or mods. I can´t install games on these computers but can download content. Steam would be rendered useless for me again.
@<hidden>
You know, most of the times first impression last very long and the first impression that most people had with steam was the HL2 fiasco. If you did not heard about it just get a look at the numerous HL2 forums. Even though the participants are HL fanatics you'll be surprise by the number of unsatisfied customers (not about the game itself but steam).
To defend it so agressively I wonder if you are a share holder or receive any benefits from steam because frankly there is nothing worth defending here.
In any case, as long as they continue giving the option to buy a cd/dvd normally at the store, they may even sell the game by episode mission by mission over steam if they want. They will always find someone to buy it.
Cheers
Steam is simply a no-go for me as I am on ISDN and I do think that a lot of OFP com members still have 8k/sec connections. This renders steam useless. And yes, I have tried it as I was forced to by HL2. Never made a single shot in HL2 because of steam. Thank you very much, but I don´t need/want it for the slow i-net connection reason.
Don´t see the real benefit of it anyway...
Edit:
Before questions arise. Like many others here I have a good inet connection available elsewhere. That´s good for downloading major updates and/or mods. I can´t install games on these computers but can download content. Steam would be rendered useless for me again.
there are 2 ways how solve this problem...
- either you download HL2 somewhere else and then backup files and these files You upload to Your machine with slow connect
- buy retail version ...
but i can understood why "such" way is not liked by people with 56k, ISDN, GRPS etc.
@<hidden>
You know, most of the times first impression last very long and the first impression that most people had with steam was the HL2 fiasco. If you did not heard about it just get a look at the numerous HL2 forums. Even though the participants are HL fanatics you'll be surprise by the number of unsatisfied customers (not about the game itself but steam).
To defend it so agressively I wonder if you are a share holder or receive any benefits from steam because frankly there is nothing worth defending here.
In any case, as long as they continue giving the option to buy a cd/dvd normally at the store, they may even sell the game by episode mission by mission over steam if they want. They will always find someone to buy it.
Cheers
for sure i'm not Valve shareholder nor staff nor even loyal customer ...
in fact i'm quite critic when comes to theirs products ... but at least theirs staff listen and fix most of the issues in "acceptable" timeframe ...
be sure if there is better content distribution system ... i will be preferening that one ... sure i know some which are now developed and theirs coders but that is still far away for "ready" status ...
only what's instantly ready is Steam ... (you can release within days/weeks)
I've never had a problem with Steam, mainly because I bought HL2 about 6 months after it's release and Steam had been fixed up. There were maany legal reasons why they used/pushed Steam...just Google "Valve vs Vivendi". http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif I think the option for a "Hard Copy" should always be there, and you shouldn't need a Steam-like app to play. But I'd like the option. And it is the way of the future kids, like it or not.
To whomever whined about how long the patching process took....it's still much shorter than OFP 1.0 -> 1.96, which I have to do since my CD is original. Adding the 1.2 OFP Patch is always a nightmare. I'm glad they fixed that up http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
Balschoiw
Dec 6 2005, 06:44
Quote[/b] ]there are 2 ways how solve this problem...
- either you download HL2 somewhere else and then backup files and these files You upload to Your machine with slow connect
- buy retail version ...
but i can understood why "such" way is not liked by people with 56k, ISDN, GRPS etc.
I have the retail version, installed it and first thing that happened was that steam came up with a over 300 Meg´s update I had to download BEFORE I would have been able to fire my first shot.
This would have taken me about 2-3 days of constant internet connection. This does not work from another computer as HL2 was installed on a different one and steam does recognize that.
So before rushing to assumptions you should first check what steam really does and what that means for slow internet connection guys who don´t have an alternative.
http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/mad_o.gif
FCOPZ-Illuminator
Dec 6 2005, 07:07
Short answer.
I need a CD/DVD ! Both versions together are OK, but only Steam http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/goodnight.gif
[quote=AliMag,Dec. 05 2005,14:45]@<hidden>
be sure if there is better content distribution system ... i will be preferening that one ... sure i know some which are now developed and theirs coders but that is still far away for "ready" status ...
only what's instantly ready is Steam ... (you can release within days/weeks)
Why can't they use bittorent, it's free and better then steam http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/rofl.gif
armandobronca
Dec 6 2005, 11:47
Only needed 1 min searching in google to get a crack for steam.
It worked, can download and play all the games availables...
I deleted it, and the games i have downloaded.
So, no thxs no steam...
Brings back memories of the downloadable version of 'Red Hammer' through Codemasters.
But....
So long as I can buy a hardcopy CD / DVD & manual through my local gaming store, I couldn't care less if they released it via morse code, carrier pidgeons or whatever.
There's only one way I intend to purchase my games, it's not via steam, or similar.
metallicAL
Dec 6 2005, 18:20
There seems to be a pretty big haterd for Steam, again all i care about is getting the game ASAP. I dont care about it needing to update, i dont care if it uses alot of cpu power unpacking, i dont care if its a little buggy, i just want armed assualt ASAP!
http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
Ofcourse, holding the box, and opening is all the more sweeter, i just wanna play it but waiting for 2-3 years since news of a OFP2, and about 8 months for armed assualt, im desperate for the game, bring it on!!!
And steam is not safe... (you can get every game for free)
dont ask more...
Disc distribution is not safe.. you can get every game for free.
It involves this thing called the internet.
There seems to be a pretty big haterd for Steam, again all i care about is getting the game ASAP. I dont care about it needing to update, i dont care if it uses alot of cpu power unpacking, i dont care if its a little buggy, i just want armed assualt ASAP!
sure, but you would have it as fast if you would go to a store. The time you would download it. steam doesn't go over speeds of 250Kb/s,average I have is 50kb/s.
Steam is in my opinion a lazy way of releasing a game, so people don't have to get to the stores. Also an easy way of controlling people. How often they play, what they play etc... I think many people are forgetting that aspect.
Releasing it through steam still means they have to have a publisher, for advertising and normal packages, which I believe the OFP community quite likes as it is.
Everybody would like to have Arma as fast as possible, but steam isn't necessary faster, as they would still release it together with the normal version.
[quote=AliMag,Dec. 05 2005,14:45]@<hidden>
be sure if there is better content distribution system ... i will be preferening that one ... sure i know some which are now developed and theirs coders but that is still far away for "ready" status ...
only what's instantly ready is Steam ... (you can release within days/weeks)
Why can't they use bittorent, it's free and better then steam http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/rofl.gif
You will need redo BT to "match" Steam (in terms for massscale sales) ... and no to mention Steam got enough of server bw ...
but ... You gave me idea ... BIS can contact author of BT ... i remember he was working on some paid BT system for media/content distribution...
jantenner
Dec 7 2005, 12:47
steam ist the second biggest crap after starforce.
and no, i dont download pirated games.
jantenner
Dec 7 2005, 12:51
as an addition: i bought ofp 3 times (once at first release and 2x goty edition) and the game is still on my harddisk after 4 years
why?
because theres the flashpointbeta 1.96 no cd exe
so no steam, no copyprotection, no cd = happy customer
other example: i installed hl2 once. took me 4 hours to get the damn game finally running. played once through it, then deinstalled. i probably never install it again.
Monkey Lib Front
Dec 7 2005, 18:03
Quote[/b] ]there are 2 ways how solve this problem...
- either you download HL2 somewhere else and then backup files and these files You upload to Your machine with slow connect
- buy retail version ...
but i can understood why "such" way is not liked by people with 56k, ISDN, GRPS etc.
I have the retail version, installed it and first thing that happened was that steam came up with a over 300 Meg´s update I had to download BEFORE I would have been able to fire my first shot.
This would have taken me about 2-3 days of constant internet connection. This does not work from another computer as HL2 was installed on a different one and steam does recognize that.
So before rushing to assumptions you should first check what steam really does and what that means for slow internet connection guys who don´t have an alternative.
http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/mad_o.gif
All you have to do is click on the don't update this game and walla it doesn't update the game and you can play 1.0 forever, i did this for cs i installed normal HL2 clicked don't update and updated cs.
I also love the whole attached to account part of it as i don't need to keep carting my cd's around with me if i want to play.
Quote[/b] ]as an addition: i bought ofp 3 times (once at first release and 2x goty edition) and the game is still on my harddisk after 4 years
why?
because theres the flashpointbeta 1.96 no cd exe
so no steam, no copyprotection, no cd = happy customer
other example: i installed hl2 once. took me 4 hours to get the damn game finally running. played once through it, then deinstalled. i probably never install it again.
erm you don't need the cd to play HL2 either it was one of the 1st patches to be released for the game.
jammydodger
Dec 7 2005, 19:25
Yeah steam does have its good points but I think the majority of people would like to have a proper case and disk.
Yeah steam does have its good points but I think the majority of people would like to have a proper case and disk.
Because the majority hasn't any real information at all about steam... http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/sad_o.gif
Because the majority hasn't any real information at all about steam... http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/sad_o.gif
no, because:
-I have a downloadlimit( nooooo, not again an update of 300 Mb :s)
-I don't like the way steam works(I don't want it to run when I play the game and log things)
-You have to know the program before you can disable things, why isn't it standard disabled?
-It's yet another program you have to install(I got loads already...)
-I prefer having a CD in case my emailadress get's hacked/disabled.
-I don't want to pay extra taxes like on steam(buy now at 19.99$!!!!, click on it, taxes additional 5$,wtf...)
-I don't want it to download things(you know, steam downloads around 1.7Mb each session without asking for anything,( I wonder what that is)
-I hate the install that pops-up after each reboot pushing next, next,next, finish, play the game each time after I rebooted(I wonder why that is)
There is more, but I need to think about that, anyway, in my opinion: http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/band.gif
Yeah steam does have its good points but I think the majority of people would like to have a proper case and disk.
Because the majority hasn't any real information at all about steam... http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/sad_o.gif
That is true, but the negativity far outweighs the positive side.
A few more negative aspects of Steam(ingpileofshit):
Unable to play if a patch is available and you dont want to download that right now.
Because the patch is available to all at the same time, dl-speed suffers (downloading 50MB at 20KB/s is not my kind of fun)
Steam has to run and log-in in order for me to start a completely different program
I believe Valve was onto something with this idea, its just that the idea was very poorly executed.
Yeah steam does have its good points but I think the majority of people would like to have a proper case and disk.
Because the majority hasn't any real information at all about steam... http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/sad_o.gif
That is true, but the negativity far outweighs the positive side.
A few more negative aspects of Steam(ingpileofshit):
Unable to play if a patch is available and you dont want to download that right now.
Because the patch is available to all at the same time, dl-speed suffers (downloading 50MB at 20KB/s is not my kind of fun)
Steam has to run and log-in in order for me to start a completely different program
I believe Valve was onto something with this idea, its just that the idea was very poorly executed.
shadow this is not exactly true and some of upcoming "NON Valve" games on Steam will prove it ...
what You mentioned is with Steam + Source games ...
I like steam, its simple ive never had any problems with it at all.
EA is creating its own version too.
And a third party group has created a Prgram called Vapour for downloading and instalation of Mods for hl, hl2, doom3 etc.
Will it replace Dvds/Cds..no.
Monkey Lib Front
Dec 8 2005, 16:27
Yeah steam does have its good points but I think the majority of people would like to have a proper case and disk.
Because the majority hasn't any real information at all about steam... http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/sad_o.gif
That is true, but the negativity far outweighs the positive side.
A few more negative aspects of Steam(ingpileofshit):
Unable to play if a patch is available and you dont want to download that right now.
Because the patch is available to all at the same time, dl-speed suffers (downloading 50MB at 20KB/s is not my kind of fun)
Steam has to run and log-in in order for me to start a completely different program
I believe Valve was onto something with this idea, its just that the idea was very poorly executed.
You can play games without updating the game, you can install HL2 vanilla v1.0 log into steam stop the update and play.
There are tons of servers all located around the world for content i've downloaded at 100kb before.
Steam is built into the game due to it including the server browser and the friends list (which is being fixed) which allows you to log into servers/load up games your mates are playing. It's an extra 10 seconds max if your loading up the game and an extra 5-10 mb of memory used.
Future games such as Red Orchestra Ost Front will use steam as content delivery but not to play it through.
There are many ++ with Steam I can tell.. Also mod tools are interigated to it, makes it very good, with pre-configurated settings for easy useing.
Other things such as compability with older games, now works with newer systems, support new hardware etc.
A "News" from last year...
Quote[/b] ]
"Today Valve disabled more than 30,000 Steam accounts which had been used to try to illegally gain access to Valve games without a valid purchase. Here's the quote for non-Steam forum members.
Valve takes such activities seriously and reserves the right to disable Steam accounts engaging in piracy, cheating, illegal activities, or any other activity in violation of the Steam Subscriber Agreement. The accounts that are disabled today will not be reactivated. - Erik Johnson (Valve)"
Dwarden
Dec 10 2005, 19:01
Strategy First To Use Steam!
Quote[/b] ]Publisher Strategy First has announced that it will use Valve's Steam content delivery service to distribute new and older games via electronic download. S.C.S - Dangerous Waters, the modern naval warfare sim, will be the first game to use the service later this month and other games will be announced later. Strategy First is the first full-fledged publisher to use Steam to distribute its titles. Strategy First already has an online store where it has a number of full games available for paid digital download but according to what a Strategy First PR person told Gamecloud today their own online store will remain. Using Steam is just an extension of their online game distribution plans.
http://gamecloud.com/article.php?article_id=2601
The more people that get steam, the more people that will try to crack/hack it. So it's a good thing, I'm looking forward to download free games like it is already possible;)
"..Valve takes such activities seriously and reserves the right to disable Steam accounts engaging in piracy, cheating, illegal activities, or any other activity in violation of the Steam Subscriber Agreement."
Then again, if you have a accont with a couple of games that you a bought in steam, and you download a pirated game to add to your steam list, then Valve with shut down your account, with no But's, then you wont be able to play with your games that you bought.. just throw it to the trash...
Good luck with the cracking and hacking.. soon you will have a couple of guys knocking at your door ! http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/welcome.gif
kavoven
Dec 11 2005, 11:51
"..Valve takes such activities seriously and reserves the right to disable Steam accounts engaging in piracy, cheating, illegal activities, or any other activity in violation of the Steam Subscriber Agreement."
Then again, if you have a accont with a couple of games that you a bought in steam, and you download a pirated game to add to your steam list, then Valve with shut down your account, with no But's, then you wont be able to play with your games that you bought.. just throw it to the trash...
Good luck with the cracking and hacking.. soon you will have a couple of guys knocking at your door ! http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/welcome.gif
Yes, exactly.
A guy in my class last week told everyone proudly: I wrote my own cheats for Counter Strike.
Yesterday his account got banned http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif
All this hacking and cracking stuff isn't as good as you thing Kode...
Well, it's easy to create another account, you just need an emailadress...that's it, that is the problem. Using your own account would be stupid.(of course there are always dumb people, and I'm not talking about cheating, but about downloading games. Which is completely different in my opinion... cheating is for losers. I just mean that it is an easy way of downloading a game directly from steam...
but this is going off-topic :s, sorry for that
Its wrong to use pirated games to, just as cheating, both for losers, right Kode? If you like the game - Then buy a licens for it..
Its seams like there is to many young people with no sense for anything anymore. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/band.gif
Quote[/b] ]"Well, it's easy to create another account, you just need an emailadress...that's it, that is the problem"
The best thing to do to set a stop that people to do so, the best thing is probebly to add a user must enter Full name, adress, social sequrity numbers etc. So the company know who the users are, so they can verifie the users..
OR?
Its wrong to use pirated games to, just as cheating, both for losers, right Kode? If you like the game - Then buy a licens for it..
Its seams like there is to many young people with no sense for anything anymore. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/band.gif
Quote[/b] ]"Well, it's easy to create another account, you just need an emailadress...that's it, that is the problem"
The best thing to do to set a stop that people to do so, the best thing is probebly to add a user must enter Full name, adress, social sequrity numbers etc. So the company know who the users are, so they can verifie the users..
OR?
I agree with you that if you like it, you have to buy it(I buy all the games I play) I just say you can easely do so, another negatif point for not using steam
and having a social security number, lol, what should that be http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/tounge2.gif , besides they would find things to use that of others, but they cannot use it against the person, because that would not be right according to the right of privacy...
hipacross
Dec 11 2005, 23:02
absolutly not http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/banghead.gif
Leopardi
Mar 14 2006, 05:18
Now Steam would be a total disaster. Me, and lots of people would not be able to buy the game, it needs a goddamn credit card to get bought. No way man, steam down!
Max Power
Mar 14 2006, 05:31
Unless they sell vouchers in software stores with scratch-off areas that conseal the serial numbers http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif
Chipper
Mar 14 2006, 05:38
A few months ago steam was hackable, and anyone could get all steam games for free. But steam recently put a stop to it and ended the fun. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/mad_o.gif
Get visa electron if you don't have a credit card, they hand it out to just about anyone.
Anyways, if you can't get a credit card due to your young age why should you be even be playing such violent games in the first place? http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif
FCOPZ-Illuminator
Mar 14 2006, 07:39
No way, i wanna by a CD/DVD not only some data on my PC http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/confused_o.gif
No way, i wanna by a CD/DVD not only some data on my PC http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/confused_o.gif
If you can't overcome your physical media fetish you can always <a href="http://support.steampowered.com/cgi-bin/steampowered.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=275&p_created=1100740298&p_sid=skmS4r2i&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9MTYmcF9wcm9kcz0wJnBfY2F0cz0wJnBfcH
Y9JnBfY3Y9JnBfc2VhcmNoX3R5cGU9YW5zd2Vycy5zZWFyY2hfbmwmcF9wYWdlPTEmcF9zZWFyY2hfdGV4dD1iYWNr
dXA*&p_li=&p_topview=1" target="_blank">burn the backup files on a cd or a dvd</a>.. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/yay.gif
snoops_213
Mar 14 2006, 08:25
No way, i wanna by a CD/DVD not only some data on my PC http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/confused_o.gif
Couldnt agree more, and in the country Im in atm broadband is slow (d/load speed 33.6kbps at best, can get faster but price isnt worth it ) and Im limited to 1Gb per month before it goes back to just faster than dial up speeds. When I spend money on games I EXPECT to have a cd/dvd and possibly a manual depending on type of game, this one I wouldnt really need it.
Besides if you build it.................................................... someone wants to break it! Why? Because we are human. Someone always wants to prove to himself and to everyone else that they can do it. Fix it someone else will break it. Its a never ending cycle, with no winners and lots and lots of loosers. It would be easier and safer to sell in stores and if demand is there
sell online, but beware! Would BIS use steam? Problaly not, they would make their own as they have done with just about everthing else, and when that gets hacked who ends up paying?
@<hidden> thats not the point. Why should i get a credit card and pay 20% + intrest to the god damn banks? Fuckers get enough money from normal accound fees. I've just finished paying one off and i've chopped the bastard up! Never again, unless Im in the deep deep shit or I get more money than brains I'll never get another one again. And what happens if you cant get a c/card because of other reasons? your screwed,that dont sound fair!
hey enough of my ranting just my 2cents http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
sniping-jack
Mar 14 2006, 08:25
No way, i wanna by a CD/DVD not only some data on my PC http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/confused_o.gif
If you can't overcome your physical media fetish you can always <a href="http://support.steampowered.com/cgi-bin/steampowered.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=275&p_created=1100740298&p_sid=skmS4r2i&p_lva=&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9MTYmcF9wcm9kcz0wJnBfY2F0cz0wJnBfcH
Y9JnBfY3Y9JnBfc2VhcmNoX3R5cGU9YW5zd2Vycy5zZWFyY2hfbmwmcF9wYWdlPTEmcF9zZWFyY2hfdGV4dD1iYWNr
dXA*&p_li=&p_topview=1" target="_blank">burn the backup files on a cd or a dvd</a>.. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/yay.gif
That's not the same!
I'm against steam, too.
I wanna see what I have bought. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif
@<hidden> thats not the point. Why should i get a credit card and pay 20% + intrest to the god damn banks? Fuckers get enough money from normal accound fees. I've just finished paying one off and i've chopped the bastard up! Never again, unless Im in the deep deep shit or I get more money than brains I'll never get another one again.
hey enough of my ranting just my 2cents http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
20%?! http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/crazy_o.gif
If you are getting such interest rates maybe the problem lies with your bank not valve. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif
And anyhow, I did mention Visa Electron which is a debit card and therefore has no interest and very low fees (2e a year for me)
Quote[/b] ]
And what happens if you cant get a c/card because of other reasons? your screwed,that dont sound fair!
They pretty much hand them out like candy these days, and if your credit is truly that crap you can always get one of those previously mentioned debit cards.
Dwarden
Mar 14 2006, 09:29
Red Orchestra Ostfront 41-45 release today on Steam (3-14 days before boxed version in stores and cheaper)
ask developers about how great deal was Steam for them as most of the price is going to theirs pocket not some greedy publisher (and it helped them to sign retail deal (AFTER steam deal) with fine conditions).
Just FYI ROO is one of most realistic WW2 FPS released (most of OFP fan should like it) ... see http://www.redorchestragame.com
$kelet0r
Mar 14 2006, 12:00
Alot of scaremongering in this thread - why would releasing Arma through the internet with Steam or BIS' platform be a bad thing seeing as it will be released in stores AS WELL
the technophobe nature of the members here is a little disturbing http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/confused_o.gif
Leopardi
Mar 14 2006, 13:23
We are talking about releasing steam only, and thinking the future if youre involved with steam, youre not going to get games by bis from markets anymore.
Nephilim
Mar 14 2006, 13:50
F**K steam!
Dwarden
Mar 14 2006, 13:57
We are talking about releasing steam only, and thinking the future if youre involved with steam, youre not going to get games by bis from markets anymore.
why ? just look at Tripwire ...
no logic in ignoring 2 markets (digital content distribution and retail channel) if You can cover both... or You think "Steam" distribution is exclusive ? that's naive
dmakatra
Mar 14 2006, 17:05
I'd prefer a hard copy of ArmA, but if BIS can't find a publisher and the game is done, I'll have no problem buying it via Steam.
Journeyman
Mar 14 2006, 21:10
F**K steam!
Couldn't agree more! In fact the only thing that's gonna stop me from buying HL2's expansion pack is having to reinstall Steam!
Every time I reboot my comp and having to wait while this f*****ng program gets the latest Spam from the internet is one good enough reason to avoid this like the plague! http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/tounge2.gif
Sputnik Monroe
Mar 14 2006, 23:45
There's nothing "techophobe" about it. It's simply the fact that broadband is not a reality for most of the world. There is no way in hell I can get broadband in my area. There will never be broadband in my lifetime in the area I currently live (and likely the place I'm moving to aslo).
Even if I could have access to broadband I would be very hard pressed to install something as invasive as steam just to get a game or two. In the end steam is beside the point, broadband access is the biggest stumbling block in the digital distribution fallacy. Only people around universities and downtown districts in major cities can even have the “privilege” to pay for cable or DSL.
I like steam, I just don't think sales would be best over it. I voted "no" because I don't think the Steam community would embrace Arma Too heavily...if was steam and in retail that would be great, however.
burn the backup files on a cd or a dvd
hum good idea, but dont forget that CDR have found not as good as we through it should be, most of the good CDR may last 10 years long untill the reflex layer is completely failed, and those cheap one? well you are lucky if you could still read it after 5 years, and thats because you're using a low speed to burn those CDRs, so for me the best one is still those made from the gold(got CDs about 7 years old didnt taken care of, its quite dirty on the surface but i can still read it with old/new reader without problems, CDR? forget it)
Group: Members
Posts: 958
Joined: May 2003 Posted: Mar. 15 2006,01:45
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There's nothing "techophobe" about it. It's simply the fact that broadband is not a reality for most of the world. There is no way in hell I can get broadband in my area. There will never be broadband in my lifetime in the area I currently live (and likely the place I'm moving to aslo).
im not being funny m8 but even people on benifit have wireless broadband in my area and its not like i ilve in beverly hills http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/huh.gif
Dwarden
Mar 15 2006, 01:37
Seems like people are too lazy to backup theirs gcf files manually or utilize "backup files" feature in Steam ...
most of people who complain about Steam never touched it since early beta or 1.x version (it's on 3.x now) and things go fine ...
jantenner
Mar 15 2006, 01:57
if the game can be purchased on cd and no steam files are required to play the game, they may releasea special internet version over steam, which ill certainly wont buy.
Who cares if its steam or not. They could use there own download service.
If they cant get a publisher, wouldnt you rather get the game as a download.
Or does everyone on here hate downloaded games so much you still wouldnt want it even it it was BIS's only hope to get the game out.
After 5 years since the first OFP I dont care how I get it, I just want it NOW, not 5 more years later. So who gives a crap how it gets on your computer, just getting it is good enough!
CrashDome
Mar 15 2006, 02:36
Steam? No...
Something else ... maybe
Steam will become another GameSpy only on steroids and automatic distribution. Give it 2 years. It will suck and it will suck hard.
[edit] I mean it will become another Gamespy as in it will become congested, full of marketing, and 90% useless crap[end edit]
The current WIP race simulator "Live for Speed" (which I learned about on this website! - thanks!http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif is a good example of how good a mixed distribution system should be made. Not this marketing gimmick 'steam' crap.
The LFS guys were able to offer downloads and serial keys and the ability to retrieve your key up to three times per month in the event of a reinstall... anymore than that and a simple email could be written. Activation was once only (like WinXP) and was very quick. Additionally, the product is offered on CD also for those that desire it. I ordered S1 and am debating on getting S2 or waiting until it's finished. Either way, when it's finished I'll have the CD/DVD in my hands - even if I download it first.
The important points are that
A) automatic distribution is not mandatory
B) it is not used for marketing purposes or data collection
C) it allows them to distribute w/o a publisher
D) it does not require a seperate client program
A key bonus is that they can release their product in 'installments' meaning we've been able to play it before their even finished!!
Also, the reports of 'cheating' are near extinct levels as compared to almost any other MP online game.
They knew how to do it. Simple, cheap, and VERY effective..
Grayace
Mar 15 2006, 07:21
what is this "Steam" talk anyway?? like CrashDome mentioned Im also sure as hell it will become another so-called "professional marketing tool" where end-users can only get unreliable solutions to their prolonged and consistent problems due to parties between the producer and the end-user...
However I support "downloadable game" idea because its hard to find the game on market especially if you're living in a non-US/EU country... for example Turkey, I bought JointOperations while I was in Belgium, and I bought two copies because its so much fun to play with a friend, but I want to buy additional 2 or several more (Teamplay via internet) but I CANT because Novalogic is selling games through the physical markets...
LFS is a very nice sample for downloadable games, Im still considering to buy a license to play it, but more than that, I know that I can buy it anytime I want to...
My word for BIS, your game will be PIRATED no matter what you do, even Starforce cant prevent it, but try to get advantage of this!!! let the pirates distribute the physical media for you, and you sell the CD-Keys/Manual online (as a ADDITIONAL service), and implement control by the internet gaming, check out NovaWorld for more info. This will save you from a lot of expenses, and even better, with the removal of third-parties (copy-protection/publisher) and reduced costs, you can sell your game at a more reasonable price and that could hit the market better that you can imagine... Be my guest please
*This one is a kind of supportive-measures against piracy, not the only marketing way of course.. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/xmas_o.gif
Some main features of Joint Operations of Novalogic,
*This game allows player to multiplay it via LAN or Novaworld,
*1 CD-Key = 1 Account = 5 different character names/statistics (no original CD-key means no internet gaming = no fun)
*Players can create internet games via Novaworld, so cheaters can be tracked as well as statistics about players
*Since the internet game pool is under control of Novaworld, players can find online games easily as well as friends that are online,
*Did I say JointOperations player limit per game is 150?? it is a unique fun to fight against 75 hostile players with 75 allied players
http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/pistols.gif http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/inlove.gif
$kelet0r
Mar 15 2006, 15:55
Steam or a steam like platform would be preferable to me - mainly because i do use broadband and i do want a constant stream of automatic updates
Steam is not 56k unfriendly but Arma will be
just dont expect to be playing Arma online with 56k - dont be under any illusions about that
It makes perfect sense to me to cover the digital download and the retail sector - maximise your customer base and satisfaction - but I dont expect too many to sympathise with my opinion here, this is a forum after all where I have been told that Armed Assault being a commercial success would be a BAD thing??!!
ade_mcc
Mar 15 2006, 16:12
CD/DVD option for those not on broadband and/or want a nice box;
Download option for those who can't buy the box and/or can't wait.
Everyones a winner!
Could use steam as a distributer and get the game seen all over the place. Well, it worked for the Darwinia guys anyway - send them the money and you can download the game straight away AND they send you the boxed game in the post. Bonus!
Or use some other distribution system. Theres more to life than Steam....
Marco.A.Aguilar1
Mar 15 2006, 16:24
Steam is a alright concept accept I would rather like to keep a hard copy library of my BIS/BIA simulations.
$kelet0r
Mar 15 2006, 20:17
and thats the way it should be - each to his own
me - i consider myself more open to change and having a cd to me is just pointless, if it was necessary to have one in the disk drive at all times then i would just create a disk image and host it on a virtual drive
to deny the consumer the ability to embrace the future or cling to the past wouldnt bode well
Uziyahu--IDF
Mar 15 2006, 22:16
I recently browsed around my game drive to find out what was taking up so much space. Steam was taking up at least 4 Gigs, even though I had Half-Life 2 uninstalled! That's completely ridiculous when you've got something like the .kkrieger beta demo at 96kb.
Has anyone read the pcgamer from last month or was it the month before?
Anways it was all about copy protection, it talked about safedisc, securom, starforce, and it amazed me 5 years later they said the best was fade by codemasters!!
It said it was pure genious how the game would let you play just enough to get hooked when using a bogus copy and then fade would kick in and ruin the game. If you liked it, it forced you to go out and buy it. It was almost like a demo of the entire game.
Then it went on to say how it was crazy that codemasters never used it again, they couldnt understand that.
PCGamer USA thought it was prolly the best copy protection ever.
I say if BIS cant get a publisher, than put it out for download and still make the same $$ as they would with a publisher!
Journeyman
Mar 16 2006, 09:10
I recently browsed around my game drive to find out what was taking up so much space. Steam was taking up at least 4 Gigs, even though I had Half-Life 2 uninstalled! That's completely ridiculous when you've got something like the .kkrieger beta demo at 96kb.
Mine was 5.46GB! I could not find a way to uninstall either so I had to just delete the entire folder! Then had to use msconfig to alter my startup to prevent windows from looking for it!
And I thought Game Spy Arcade was invasive! Steam is like a f*****g malignant cancer on your system! http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/tounge2.gif
Dwarden
Mar 16 2006, 14:44
One of reasons Fade vanish was that what happen if it triggers on valid client? Ruined game for valid customer ...
I can tell You that all of them (securom, safedisk, starforce, fade) are WASTE of developer/publisher cash ... they will be cracked in 0-14 days ...
there are games which perfectly demostrated there is NO need for copy protection and still result into commercial success ...
what developers and publishers should care about is protecting MP gaming against cheaters ...
I can tell You that all of them (securom, safedisk, starforce, fade) are WASTE of developer/publisher cash ... they will be cracked in 0-14 days ...
As far as I can tell starforce usually can last quite long especially if the game is not very popular. Of course there is the issue of starforce being a very suscpicious piece of software to begin with.
Grayace
Mar 16 2006, 18:19
I can tell You that all of them (securom, safedisk, starforce, fade) are WASTE of developer/publisher cash ... they will be cracked in 0-14 days ...
As far as I can tell starforce usually can last quite long especially if the game is not very popular. Of course there is the issue of starforce being a very suscpicious piece of software to begin with.
I can tell this about protection and cra*cking, there will be no protection as long as you give the software completely to client and let them use it offline... even the hardwares are designed to prevent illegeal copies to run _but_ there will be alternate hardwares which can run those... DVD movies are a good example for this.
I dislike steam for 1 reason, i payed a lot for HL2 and i lost my steam account details and when i asked for them i had to answer a secret question and i never even put that question on. "Who was my childhood hero" .. wtf .. i would of put whats my dogs name or favorite book or something.. so my HL2 days were over http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/sad_o.gif http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/sad_o.gif http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/sad_o.gif
Dwarden
Mar 16 2006, 18:28
I dislike steam for 1 reason, i payed a lot for HL2 and i lost my steam account details and when i asked for them i had to answer a secret question and i never even put that question on. "Who was my childhood hero" .. wtf .. i would of put whats my dogs name or favorite book or something.. so my HL2 days were over http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/sad_o.gif http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/sad_o.gif http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/sad_o.gif
not different from loosing box with cd and key http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif i assume You tried Valve support giving them email, registration info, CC number (if you bought online) etc ...
that all alows You recover from such problem ... more options than with just retail box sales
deanosbeano
Mar 16 2006, 19:07
as me and a few of my fellow css hl1 hl2 etc players say,
" it is a pile of STEAMing crap"
fade will be enough, just give us the recorder from vbs and we will ip, id or even tag ban the cheats http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
ps only play between ofp breaks http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
all hail steam, I want to play a bit of DoD:s, and I constantly get messages: This game is currently unavailable, please try again later...wtf... http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/band.gif
advocatexxx
Mar 16 2006, 22:04
No to steam.. i wanna smell on the manual in real life. not virtually
a true flashpoint player doesn't need no stinkin' manual to play!
http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
Steam is in my opinion a lazy way of releasing a game, so people don't have to get to the stores. Also an easy way of controlling people. How often they play, what they play etc... I think many people are forgetting that aspect.
steam doesn't control anyone. if anything, it may track when you play a game and how long in duration. it should also be noted that one is not required to disclose their sex or age (or any other personal details for that matter) when creating a steam account, so the only information this hypothetical "steam tracker" would provide is the time you launch the game, and how long in time you play it. that kind of data is quite useless in the marketing world when you can't even narrow down your audience by simple factors such as age.
Quote[/b] ]Releasing it through steam still means they have to have a publisher, for advertising and normal packages, which I believe the OFP community quite likes as it is.
steam wasn't exactly released for the sole purpose of making software available through the internet. people have had the ability to purchase software online and download it for years now. steam was, in big part, an intitiative taken up to resolve the issues of software updates.
in essence, it's nothing more than your windows automatic updater, which occasionally checks for new versions and downloads them, to keep your software up-to-date. this is especially important since the original half-life engine, and games which ran off it (counter strike, day of defeat, etc.) were constantly barraged with hacks and cheats, and valve tried to keep-up by offering new patches and fixes. this often proved to be an exhausting task for gamers, who had to manually check and download updates for their software.
Quote[/b] ]Steam is in my opinion a lazy way of releasing a game, so people don't have to get to the stores.
that's certainly part of their business strategy. and so what? it's only beneficial if you ask me. why waste resources on a pointless manual? when you know that for a game like half-life, no one will really read it. the only information there is just FAQ, troubleshooting and the warranty notice. why waste resources on imprinting a disc, on packaging, on distribution, on retail space. all of this costs money, and ultimately, has to be included within the product's price.
by offering us the option of downloading it, they're paving way for more affordable software.
as for these 50Kb/sec download limits they seem to experience when downloading updates from steam, i have yet to experience such slow speeds. my downstream usually averages at around 600-800Kb/sec.
i'm not vouching for steam, but i'm certainly trying to clear up some of these flawed notions that many of you preach. in a few years fiber-optic lines will replace DSL and Cable (my friend's neighborhood is already wired with fiberoptic lines, and he gets T3-equivalent speeds for the same price that my Cable costs).
steam doesn't force you to download software updates if you're playing a singleplayer game, and these "clock cycles" someone mentioned, lol, where do you get this stuff? you dont' honestly think that if you somehow played the game without steam, your FPS rate will double, do you?
steam is nothing more than a way of keeping a game that's known to be popular in multiplayer up-to-date, taking full advantage of the broadband. and if you're stuck on a 56K line or ISDN, then you lack bandwidth to play the game online, let alone download the updates.
Journeyman
Mar 16 2006, 22:33
steam is nothing more than a way of keeping a game that's known to be popular in multiplayer up-to-date, taking full advantage of the broadband. and if you're stuck on a 56K line or ISDN, then you lack bandwidth to play the game online, let alone download the updates.
- If this is the case then why the 5.5GB of disk space? http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/tounge2.gif
No doubt the principles are sound, but the way it is implemented is unacceptable IMO. My PC isn't just used for playing games; it is also my workhorse. If I want to play a game I double click on it. As it is at the moment if I don't want Steam my only real option is to uninstall it, and tbh that 5.5GB of disk space can be put to much better use! http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/whistle.gif
Dwarden
Mar 16 2006, 23:54
all hail steam, I want to play a bit of DoD:s, and I constantly get messages: This game is currently unavailable, please try again later...wtf... http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/band.gif
known error fixable ... search Steam forums ...
usually related to used firewall / security software ...
You need recreate rules
another thing could be your account is rights limited
or logoff from steam and back helps ...
anyway if You have problem ... Steam support is way to go
btw. look here http://www.steampowered.com/status/survey.html
in 2 days there is over 350k "VULUNTEER" (you choose You want take part) results ... let say only 1 of 5 people take part then you are at million and half users ...
NO other developer / publisher if i remember correct ever released such informations public ... and now tell me Valve not helps other developers ...
deanosbeano
Mar 17 2006, 17:41
and just to even the Debate out http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
the negative side of it (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=409200&perpage=15&pagenumber=1)
and an overall view (http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=14)
at least with ofp , if the game was playing up it was the game, not the game and some other internet thing ( well except when gay cough spy was around)
in 2 days there is over 350k "VULUNTEER" (you choose You want take part) results ... let say only 1 of 5 people take part then you are at million and half users ...
NO other developer / publisher if i remember correct ever released such informations public ... and now tell me Valve not helps other developers ...
Ehm not hard, every time you start steam they bother you with it untill you do it, so make it more like almost all users take part of it...
Berghoff
Mar 18 2006, 10:08
Oh btw, I got my HL2 with an ATi card but when the game came out I needed log in more than once to steam in order to play in the so called "Offline mode". :/ So when you want to play on a different pc you need to log in to the crappy program again, I just want to press on the .exe file and play :P.
Steam is a good concept but it just has too many bugs. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/crazy_o.gif
I really like Steam. I have had 0 problems with it but problems with some Valve software. Steam works fine, and if it doesn't Valve will update it.
I have already bought 2 games through Steam (credit card), DOD:S and Red Orchestra. The best thing about Steam is that it is very dynamic and developers can update software very easily. There is no need to give any money to a middleman so software can be priced more friendly.
Also Steam games come with VAC (Valve Anti-Cheat). The best thing about it is that it can be updated at any given time, so it should keep cheaters on their toes. Also cheating may freeze your account, so any game you have bought through steam stops working. This makes kids think twice before messing with "hacks".
Paper manuals are pretty useless for me. I usually learn by doing or just read the manuals from software cd/dvd. I'm all for Steam. It is still under development but it alrady works as a platform for many game developers. And when I buy a box software and real cd's, I usually try to find a crack for it as soon as possible. I hate swapping cd's and dvd's, especially because my dvd drive is really noisy.
And the bad thing about Steam is ofcourse its strongest point, connectivity. Steam requires internet connection when you validate the game after installation. But all in all I would love to see BIS products available on Steam. The draditional way is ofcourse safer but it feels so slow and pretty expensive.
Kegetys
Mar 18 2006, 22:17
There is no need to give any money to a middleman so software can be priced more friendly.
Except Valve? Also, not having a "proper" publisher means extra costs for the developer as they will need to handle support (Dunno how much the steam support thing covers though), advertising and PR themselves.
Quote[/b] ]Also cheating may freeze your account, so any game you have bought through steam stops working.
This is imo. quite unfair and ridiculous. I dont think that would even be legal to do here, if Steam would be ran by a Finnish company...
If my memory doesn't deceive me.. This is the way it works;
If you're caught cheating on a VAC server, in any game, your VAC status will change and you will be unable to play on any VAC servers. They can also ban your steam account or CD key.
I could be wrong, I havent played any steam apps since summer '05.
shinRaiden
Mar 18 2006, 23:11
Aside from private developer concerns I don't have any problems with steam-type systems as the delivery vehicle. Note that the delivery vehicle (sales and distribution done online and direct) does not automaticly require that managed servers and regular account maintenance be included in the deal. It could be in effect nothing more than a paypal transaction and a user-specific encrypted download, which is already done on a limited non-automated fashion for VBS1 customers.
Now with Steam and BF2 and so on you do not have to use the managed servers. If I understand it correctly, you can hang out in the cheater servers if you so choose. If you do not want to be bothered managing them youself, then there is the option of managed servers where you the 'admin' don't have to admin.
The problem though is that there is no way atm to effectively reign in the addon chaos that exists sufficently to support both externally managed servers and the full range of modability we're accustomed to. BIS would need a hire a whole ton of people who do nothing but spend all day downloading and auditing community content. And where would the revenue come from to pay their salaries? I don't see BIS as being the kind of outfit to rent servers at EA-style monthly rates.
The problem is that we the community like our anarchy, and can't be bothered to resolve the underlying issues. If we don't take care of it now, it's only going to get worse in ArmA and Game2. Anyways, that's the problem with Steam-type online play systems for micro-moddable games such as OFP. That could be largely resolved though through vastly improved community cooperation and coordination. That's our problem, not BIS's.
BIS's problem would be that of backwards integration of legacy products. With Steam, you can integrate older pre-Steam games into your Steam account for a unified launcher and server browser, updates, etc. That is, unless like in my case, if your CD-Key's have not been dupped by a keygen. I bought the HL:Platinum pack a couple years ago, but never set up Steam or registered the CD-Key's because I was on dialup and the modem was on another computer, and I wasn't playing MP anyway. So when I did get broadband and Steam, I found out that some bot had key-gen'd my old key's.
So I spent a couple days digging on the Steam Support, and the answer was if I sent in my CD sleeves with the CD-Key stickers and $10 for each of the four games, then they would 'graciously' revert the keys back to me. I don't have a problem sending in the sleeves, but I am not going to buy my game twice. Wait a sec, if you stop to read the EULA you're only buying a license to utilize their content. So they can charge you for as many licenses as they care to.
I have no problem paying once for one game. That's capitalism. But I am not going to pay twice for the same game, that's a ripoff.
I guess where I'm going with all this rambling is that the bag bad 'Steam' comprises several different components which can be taken independently of each other. Just food for thought.
mikefictiti0us
Mar 18 2006, 23:39
Pro, because there won't be a publishener who sets the deadline...
Best example is jsut released Xł.... these was burstin into pieces at the beginning, because of all these damn bugs creeping around.
Steam->Money for the GameStudio itself
Steam->Instant patching
Steam->No illegal copies
Steam->Less bugs
and so on...
No illegal copies? Actually, every game that has been released on Steam thus far has been cracked by warez groups so that you can play them independently, without having Steam running. Half Life 2 was cracked within a matter of hours after Steam enabled everyone to play.
My real problem with Steam is that it MUST be enabled and running for you to play any Steam games. They should have made it so that Steam starts, validates, you pick a game and then Steam shuts down just after the game starts.
Baphomet
Mar 18 2006, 23:52
FUCKING NO!
I hate steam. There's a reason why I will never buy a valve product again, and that's steam. Having your programs forcibly updated (thus breaking them) unless you wish to commit large amounts of HD space to backing up your game (all completely pointless).
And the sheer audacity of a company to tell me that I have to run a piece of shit spyware program that has NOTHING to do with the game, IMO stealing valuable memory and cpu time otherwise dedicated to my game, is insulting and selfish.
Every time I'd experience a brief stutter in the game I'd wonder if it would have happened if I had some garbage, tit-useless front end program hogging up system resources with stupid animated ads and the like. It's completely unnecessary.
You have to understand that steam has in effect made it EASIER to acquire their content without paying. It also is shafting the paying customer whom the company should be protecting, but they're not they're greedy. When I buy a product. I expect it to serve ME, the end user who bought it. The EULA for HL2 clearly states that after 30 days they can cancel your account (thus disabling functionality of a game) at will. YOU AGREE TO THIS!?
I personally will never touch a BIS product ever again if they opt for a system like this, and take the easy way out instead of EARNING my business. I'd encourage everyone I got to buy OFP to do the same thing...
Steam serves only one entity, and that's Valve. Anyone who perceives any benefit from it as an end user is a chump, and or a retard. Their system was nothing short of exploitative of a successful franchise knowing most people would grudgingly "put up" with it.
Quote[/b] ]Quote (k@<hidden> @<hidden> Dec. 03 2005,21:19)
Pro, because there won't be a publishener who sets the deadline...
Best example is jsut released Xł.... these was burstin into pieces at the beginning, because of all these damn bugs creeping around.
Steam->Money for the GameStudio itself?
Steam->Instant patching
Steam->No illegal copies
Steam->Less bugs
and so on...
Steam->Money for the GameStudio itself?
For a company that's getting so much return on an investment valve sure is sticking it to the end user...
Steam->Instant patching
I'll take downloaded patches at the expense of not having my games borked when I get cut off, or I lose a feature I previously liked, or the game itself gets screwed up worse because the new patch created new bugs. I can't remember how many times I waited on OFP patches because I wanted to make sure they didn't make things WORSE. If I don't have that freedom of choice, I WON'T support that company. Period.
Steam->No illegal copies
Lies.
Steam->Less bugs
Again... lies. Or fanboy idealism... take your pick.
Lies. Propaganda. Less bugs my ass! SO many people I know have been put off by steam because of it's frequent forced patching, getting cut off by the server and having their game borked so they can't play it when they want.
If I BUY something. I want to USE it whenever I want. I also want to run ANY version of that program I want. I know there's a so-called option to turn off automatic updates, but why is it always on when you restart steam? Because you really don't have a choice.
Quote[/b] ]
No illegal copies? Actually, every game that has been released on Steam thus far has been cracked by warez groups so that you can play them independently, without having Steam running. Half Life 2 was cracked within a matter of hours after Steam enabled everyone to play.
My real problem with Steam is that it MUST be enabled and running for you to play any Steam games. They should have made it so that Steam starts, validates, you pick a game and then Steam shuts down just after the game starts.
True... Like I said. Steam has actually made it easier for people to pirate their content. What's embarassing about this, is that paying customers are PAYING for the same inconveniences that the pirates are... where is Valve protecting the customer?
Quote[/b] ]The problem is that we the community like our anarchy, and can't be bothered to resolve the underlying issues. If we don't take care of it now, it's only going to get worse in ArmA and Game2. Anyways, that's the problem with Steam-type online play systems for micro-moddable games such as OFP. That could be largely resolved though through vastly improved community cooperation and coordination. That's our problem, not BIS's.
I like being able to modify and play OFP mods/addons/etc to suit the way I play. Everything I use for OFP is subject to tweaking to my standards. If I were to lose that because people wanted to generate some community wide concensus (read: shitty comprimises on how the game is played). I might as well just buy BF2 and be done with it.
OFP to me embodies freedom, freedom from retarded bullshit like steam, and freedom from someone imposing their will on how a game should look, sound, play, etc. Without that, it's not half the game it could be.
There is no need to give any money to a middleman so software can be priced more friendly.
Except Valve? Also, not having a "proper" publisher means extra costs for the developer as they will need to handle support (Dunno how much the steam support thing covers though), advertising and PR themselves.
Quote[/b] ]Also cheating may freeze your account, so any game you have bought through steam stops working.
This is imo. quite unfair and ridiculous. I dont think that would even be legal to do here, if Steam would be ran by a Finnish company...
By a middleman I meant shipping and handling companies. I should have said "no need to give any money to another middleman" because there is just Valve, the software company and the customer (plus of course credit card companies).
I am pretty sure that Valve makes Steam much more temptating to a software developer by offering more profit per sold product than bigger publishers.
And what comes to legal issues. For example OFP had the Codemasters software license agreement. It says: "TERMINATION: Without prejudice to any other rights of Codemasters, this Agreement will terminate automatically if you fail to comply with its terms and conditions. In such event, you must destroy all copies of the Program and all its component parts."
So I think Valve has every right to control and protect their products but I am not aware how it contradicts with Finnish laws. It is pretty much same situation with every publisher so it is "unfair" with almost every game. But of course they can't come and take away your computer because of a license termination. But they can protect themselves from legal actions. Valve is special because their platform can immediately terminate the agreement by deleting or banning your account or individual products.
But all in all, I don't believe that BIS will use Steam. I just don't mind if they do so. In my mind Steam's good points win the bad points.
If BIS people think they would benefit more if they did that why not.
Ill buy the game either ways anyhow! http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/firefoxlover.gif
Most People here vote NO steam. NO PB!
I fear we will end with a naked game. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/crazy_o.gif
Kegetys
Mar 19 2006, 09:25
By a middleman I meant shipping and handling companies. I should have said "no need to give any money to another middleman" because there is just Valve, the software company and the customer (plus of course credit card companies).
True, however this can also be achieved by other means than steam distribution, for example Battlefront (http://www.battlefront.com) is a publisher from which you order the game directly, and you get a hard copy just like you would from a store.
Quote[/b] ]And what comes to legal issues. For example OFP had the Codemasters software license agreement...
EULA's in commercial games have zero legal ground here, when I buy a product I have the right to use it and the seller/manufacturer cannot just one day decide to destroy something I have legally purchased, not to mention about destroying other products that are not in any way related to it. What they're doing sounds more like mafia style tactics to me, they sell you a bunch of products and then suddenly decide to take them all away from you, forcing you to re-buy everything. They take the roles of the lawmaker, prosecutor, judge and executioner all to themselves which can not in any way be just.
Journeyman
Mar 19 2006, 10:29
By a middleman I meant shipping and handling companies. I should have said "no need to give any money to another middleman" because there is just Valve, the software company and the customer (plus of course credit card companies).
True, however this can also be achieved by other means than steam distribution, for example Battlefront (http://www.battlefront.com) is a publisher from which you order the game directly, and you get a hard copy just like you would from a store.
Quote[/b] ]And what comes to legal issues. For example OFP had the Codemasters software license agreement...
EULA's in commercial games have zero legal ground here, when I buy a product I have the right to use it and the seller/manufacturer cannot just one day decide to destroy something I have legally purchased, not to mention about destroying other products that are not in any way related to it. What they're doing sounds more like mafia style tactics to me, they sell you a bunch of products and then suddenly decide to take them all away from you, forcing you to re-buy everything. They take the roles of the lawmaker, prosecutor, judge and executioner all to themselves which can not in any way be just.
You said it right! - Steam = Mafia!
1 other thing i really hope we dont see is starforce protecion system i have just bought a alien area 51 and 2 new games wont work because of starforce. very odd considering they both run on a older pc http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/pistols.gif
1 other thing i really hope we dont see is starforce protecion system i have just bought a alien area 51 and 2 new games wont work because of starforce. very odd considering they both run on a older pc http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/pistols.gif
Starforce is different matter, no one want that shit to be bundled with their favorite game.
I personally consider any action against starforce as a rootkit ethical. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif
Berghoff
Mar 19 2006, 16:46
A starforce developer also posted a working link to a torrent with a game that has starforce on it to "prove" it is uncrackable. It was on a game-news site a week ago. lol =) not very smart
Dwarden
Mar 19 2006, 17:43
A starforce developer also posted a working link to a torrent with a game that has starforce on it to "prove" it is uncrackable. It was on a game-news site a week ago. lol =) not very smart
actually they posted link to torrent site about game w/o ANY copy protection to prove how easy is to pirate unprotected game (no matter that game is very sucessfull and good seller) irony is on same site You find all starforce protected games ...
so please next time read more about theme before posting http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
Berghoff
Mar 19 2006, 17:53
Then the news site posted wrong information because that was in the article. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/whistle.gif
Dwarden
Mar 19 2006, 18:40
Then the news site posted wrong information because that was in the article. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/whistle.gif
You can read original (from affected game developers) here http://forums.galciv2.com/index.a....741&c=1 (http://forums.galciv2.com/index.aspx?forumid=161&aid=106741&c=1)
Baphomet
Mar 20 2006, 00:33
Quote[/b] ]If BIS people think they would benefit more if they did that why not.
... because a system like steam, doesn't benefit anyone but the company.
However, the only exception to this which has been mentioned, is a DISTRIBUTION ONLY via steam. AFAIK Red Orchestra does not require steam for anything other than simply delivering the game to your pc. It does not require you to run that sack of shit program whilst running the game.
I wouldn't mind this so much if, IF I could still buy it in a store.
As many people here have mentioned, we want something physical to show for our purchase, we want a cd/dvd, etc.
Dwarden
Mar 20 2006, 02:04
Quote[/b] ]If BIS people think they would benefit more if they did that why not.
... because a system like steam, doesn't benefit anyone but the company.
However, the only exception to this which has been mentioned, is a DISTRIBUTION ONLY via steam. AFAIK Red Orchestra does not require steam for anything other than simply delivering the game to your pc. It does not require you to run that sack of shit program whilst running the game.
I wouldn't mind this so much if, IF I could still buy it in a store.
As many people here have mentioned, we want something physical to show for our purchase, we want a cd/dvd, etc.
Uhm ROO need Steam to authenticate too plus there is VAC anticheat integrated into ROO ...
boxed versions of ROO are going to be in stores within next weeks ...
still You need Steam account ...
btw. Steam takes like 5MB in idle mode and generates close to 0 traffic (except auth) ...
advocatexxx
Mar 20 2006, 18:51
Most People here vote NO steam. NO PB!
most people also seem to have some, rather distorted ideas about what steam is and how it works.
"most people" also voted to re-elect president bush, but that obviously didn't turn out to be such a good choice either.
whoever refers to steam as a "piece of shit, system-hogging spyware" needs to upgrade their computer (128MB or RAM just doesn't cut it anymore, bob).
Journeyman
Mar 20 2006, 21:18
Most People here vote NO steam. NO PB!
most people also seem to have some, rather distorted ideas about what steam is and how it works.
"most people" also voted to re-elect president bush, but that obviously didn't turn out to be such a good choice either.
whoever refers to steam as a "piece of shit, system-hogging spyware" needs to upgrade their computer (128MB or RAM just doesn't cut it anymore, bob).
3.2GB P4, 1GB RAM, 160GB hard drive - still think that Steam is a "piece of shit, system-hogging, contol freakware"!
Nothing to do with system specs at all, this is about ethics and freedom of choice, neither of which Steam is capable of delivering!
I've had Steam, tried it, didn't like it, still don't like it, end of story! http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/tounge2.gif
As for President Bush, I can't comment because I'm not American!
Dwarden
Mar 20 2006, 22:26
please stay with facts (like bloated unstable crapware) but speculation about Steam being spyware are just Your pure imagination ...
prove it or stfu ...
shinRaiden
Mar 20 2006, 23:48
Hey people, you're not helping the discussion any here. All you're saying is "z0mg, Steam is Satan's own virtual toilet paper" and throwing out rehashes for Valve's specific implementation of some generic concepts.
1) If the option were available, would you prefer to download the game content as opposed to wait for or go get a disc? I don't have the exact numbers, but the significant majority of VBS1 customers have specificly requested direct downloads instead of mailed discs.
2) Valve is far from the only one that offers out-sourced server security and enforcement. WoW is mandatory via The Warden. Joint Ops, BF2, and Americas Army all have it optionally available. It's far from being a Valve-exclusive story, and the real horror stories are coming from Blizzard, not Valve.
At any rate, that also implies that BIS is buying up vast chunks of server farm real estate to roll that sort of offering. That is rediculous on several fronts. First, locked-down and externally controlled systems are difficult to rapidly integrate new mods and content into. That's incompatible with the OFP community spirit.
3) If a pay-to-download-direct system were implemented, but a managed server services system is impractical, why would you need a custom TSR frontend app anyway? Oh wait, lots of people already run a couple, like Kegety's OFP Launcher or OFP Watch which does auto-data syncronization.
So on one hand you have people dancing around the fire in praise of bn880's idea for a hash indexed auto content updater for AAE 2.0, yet they come over here to blast the very same concept. You can't swing it both ways. The frontends are really non-critical though because there's no need for secure authentication to game-external monitoring systems, although there has been community-encouraged discussion of that very technology from sileasian and malbrouf.
So far all the bash-Steam reasons have completely missed the original intent of the discussion, which was to explore community interest in alternate distribution methods. If you don't like Valve, don't buy their products. I never suggested that BIS put their stuff on Steam or Fileplanet or whatever. I just said "look at the underlying tech and what's applicable and what's not, and comment if it's an interesting idea."
Steam has been cracked. I'm not sure if the current version has been cracked, but I know it has been in the past. This just provides another option for people to download the game illegally.
They already have torrents, why give them another option to rip off the only games company that actually deserves the money they make from their games.
If BIS want to distribute ArmA electronically, they should do it through their own ftp servers, not a cracked piece of shit like steam.
And as for Steam being a system hog. Any programs running in the background waste good resources, I would rather have absolutely nothing running in the background, even if I only gain half a frame per second from it. And why should people pay to upgrade their system just because steam wastes the resources that ArmA could be using.
Also, all the cheaters from CS; Source will have an easy gateway to ArmA. Using the same cracked copy of Steam they have they can download ArmA, polluting our servers with bunny hoping, team killing, noobs who play only to piss people off and cheat. Certainly not something I'd vote for
Major Fubar
Mar 21 2006, 04:48
please stay with facts (like bloated unstable crapware) but speculation about Steam being spyware are just Your pure imagination ...
prove it or stfu ...
Watch the attitude Dwarden. First and last warning - very close to flaming.
thrush213
Mar 21 2006, 05:26
oh god...so many things bad with steam...i'm sure they've all been mentioned. one thing i hate is lack of hard copy...another is download through internet. fast connection required. and if you're not close to their servers, having cable won't do squat.
not to mention the tedius steam application loadings, etc, etc. credic card required.
a big fat no for steam
I think everyone should understand yes or no for steam is BIS decision, as for most replays they have nothing to do with facts. Those usual lies (even if some of them were true) cracked hacked spyware wont work anymore. I really hope BIS don’t consider this topic while deciding and also the PB poll.
In the PB poll most people voting and discussing and I have real doubt that most of them never used it, regarding their concerns about mod making and other issues. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/nener.gif
Dwarden clarified things more than once and that never helped. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif
Dwarden
Mar 21 2006, 10:48
re: M4XSs
thanks but PB poll and thread are fine discussion so far http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....t=48247 (http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard311/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=64;t=48247)
42% voted for PB ... so let say 1/3 of players want some "strong" anticheat in game (minimum PB quality level or better http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif...
problem is mainly with people who don't understand concept and how it works ... (fear from new)
same it's with Steam ...
well it have lot of illness but in size and age it's success already
but like was said it's not alone e.g. there is freeware content distribution system for game MODS ! named Vapour http://www.vapour-online.com/
and xfire is trying to catch on this market too , from big players lets name e.g. Microsoft
$kelet0r
Mar 21 2006, 10:56
Having a hard copy is pointless in the digital age - its why digital distribution will be the future of retail
Now whether BIS decide to use their own system or get on board with a highly successful and popular system like Steam is their decision but I for one would hate for them to throw away a great commercial opportunity and innovative cost effective distribution technique because the technophobes on this forum are afraid
and i dont use the word technophobe lightly - the same arguments of oh i'll need a fast connection, or oh i dont want a program running that will take away from my 128mb ram
This is the 21st century people - get this, if you are one of those who think that steam would be a problem on your system you probably shouldnt be posting on this forum at all because you won't be able to play the game
for example i have a fairly average system, 3ghz P4, 512mb ram, 128 mb Radeon 9700 and I expect to be lucky to be able to run Armed Assault on all low settings
where you other people are coming from I dont know
The advantages of Digital Distribution
1. Saves BIS money
2. Download on Demand
3. No need for discs and registration keys
4. Instant updates
5. Buddy system
6. Access to new content at all times
7. 24/7 Support online
8. Helps prevent Cheating and Warez by preventing illegal copies accessing updates or playing online
Disadvantages and Myths
1. Takes up precious Ram - for example steam is using a whopping 5000kb right now, i better hope my system doesnt explode http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/rofl.gif
2. Floods your system with spyware - The greatest online lie of all time - like dwarden said 'Prove it'
My idea:
BIS made own system as steam, which it will be distribute their games.
Games will have CDKEYs for play over internet.
http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/yay.gif
$kelet0r
Mar 21 2006, 11:14
My idea:
BIS made own system as steam, which it will be distribute their games.
Games will have CDKEYs for play over internet.
http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/yay.gif
and common sense prevails
http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/notworthy.gif
martinovic
Mar 21 2006, 12:34
You know what i'd like to see is a retail game released with a usb key. Wanna see if anyone can find a workaround. What affects does such a key have on price anyway?
... there`s nothing else what can replace a nice game box with cd/dvd and ultra-sega-mega manual. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/xmas_o.gif
Steam is fine aslong as its not the only distrebution method ie normal box in a shop also. The reason for this is fairly simple as can be seen by reading this thread a large amount dislike steam and online type paid downloads so as a result bis would be seriously reduceing there possible market to who they are selling and for something that is pretty niche game to start with it aint the best idea is it. the other reason is not everyone has or wants a credit card, not everyone has a conection where it is plausible to download a full game(56k ect).
for me anyway i want a box and nice shiny disk it will only take me 20min to go to shop and buy a game than wait 3+ hours for one to download. Box just makes it hell of alot easier for me and less frustration waiting watching a download bar moving at snails pace.
Traditional release + steam type = best of both worlds
Traditional release = suits me fine
Steam only = limiting possible market not everyone is willing to buy from many cant
I find it amazing that Valve/Steam lovers cant understand the simple fact that people who are NOT playing online (single player only) does NOT want to be forced to have anything else than their original cd to play the game.
Why in the name of God should I need an internet connection, a Steam account and a software verifying the validity of my copy every time I decide to play alone on my computer at home or anywhere else (HL2 for example).
If we're only talking about distribution choice, no problem as long as you keep the possibility to buy a hard copy of the game so I can install/reinstall it when I want without asking an online authorisation to anyone.
If you want to play multiplayer, fine. Get your connection, your account and everything that goes with it and have fun. But please dont impose that to people that does NOT play multi. We, single players, are NOT concern about cheating or any other misbehaviour that you find on multi servers. There are much more single players in a game like OFP than HL2 and I can garantee you that the crowd they will lose (starting with me) will be much bigger than the one they lost with the HL2 catastrophy.
Cheers
vektorboson
Mar 21 2006, 14:24
You know what i'd like to see is a retail game released with a usb key. Wanna see if anyone can find a workaround. What affects does such a key have on price anyway?
I wanna see how anyone couldn't find a workaround...
Do you really believe that such measures will prevent unauthorized copying?
You really want to be treated as a potential thief instead of "king customer"? You really want to be in a worse position than those who use cracked software?
I consider buying Galactic Civilizations 2 just for the fact that they don't use any anti-piracy measures (and because I am a great fan of Master Of Orion 2, and it looks pretty similar). And despite lacking copy-protection, the game is a commercial success! And the game comes from a goddamn independent developer!
If you're happy with it, go, use Steam, and be treated as a potential thief and cracker.
Quote[/b] ]
and i dont use the word technophobe lightly - the same arguments of oh i'll need a fast connection, or oh i dont want a program running that will take away from my 128mb ram
This is the 21st century people - get this, if you are one of those who think that steam would be a problem on your system you probably shouldnt be posting on this forum at all because you won't be able to play the game
So the 21st century consists of applications that may take away as many resources from my computer as they like, leaving little for the applications I actually want to use?
You think that it's OK, those applications are taking away CPU time, memory, hard disk capacity because they are assumed plentyfull?
Well, then it's OK to buy a new computer every half year because it can't cope anymore with the software because the programmers assume their app may take as many resources as available, since, well, it's 21st century. Everyone has an up to date computer, with plenty memory, plenty hard drive space, a superfast CPU.
So where should we stop? Should my app use 5MB? But hell, everyone has 1GB of RAM and there is probably no other memory intensive application running... So why don't use 10 MB, or 20?
Dwarden
Mar 21 2006, 14:58
My idea:
BIS made own system as steam, which it will be distribute their games.
Games will have CDKEYs for play over internet.
http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/yay.gif
Idea is fine , but Your forget the investments needed :
You need coders, servers, QA staff and so on to produce "own" content distribution system ...
i got no problem if BIS made it over e.g. Bittorrent or so http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
but for most companies is cheaper and FASTER to utilize something what's already done ...
Dwarden
Mar 21 2006, 15:00
I find it amazing that Valve/Steam lovers cant understand the simple fact that people who are NOT playing online (single player only) does NOT want to be forced to have anything else than their original cd to play the game.
Why in the name of God should I need an internet connection, a Steam account and a software verifying the validity of my copy every time I decide to play alone on my computer at home or anywhere else (HL2 for example).
If we're only talking about distribution choice, no problem as long as you keep the possibility to buy a hard copy of the game so I can install/reinstall it when I want without asking an online authorisation to anyone.
If you want to play multiplayer, fine. Get your connection, your account and everything that goes with it and have fun. But please dont impose that to people that does NOT play multi. We, single players, are NOT concern about cheating or any other misbehaviour that you find on multi servers. There are much more single players in a game like OFP than HL2 and I can garantee you that the crowd they will lose (starting with me) will be much bigger than the one they lost with the HL2 catastrophy.
Cheers
another typical Steam myth ...
i can play HL2 single player w/o internet connection ...
yes in so called OFFLINE mode http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
$kelet0r
Mar 21 2006, 15:19
Quote[/b] ]So the 21st century consists of applications that may take away as many resources from my computer as they like, leaving little for the applications I actually want to use?
You think that it's OK, those applications are taking away CPU time, memory, hard disk capacity because they are assumed plentyfull?
Well, then it's OK to buy a new computer every half year because it can't cope anymore with the software because the programmers assume their app may take as many resources as available, since, well, it's 21st century. Everyone has an up to date computer, with plenty memory, plenty hard drive space, a superfast CPU.
So where should we stop? Should my app use 5MB? But hell, everyone has 1GB of RAM and there is probably no other memory intensive application running... So why don't use 10 MB, or 20?
well this takes the technophobe cake - you make it sound like your computer is actually on the verge of meltdown http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/rofl.gif
what's wrong with you? open up your task manager right now and see how much ram all the applications are using - even just surfing the net you are probably using about half of all your virtual memory just like most people - now tell me are yonot able to currently play games?
by the sounds of it you wont be playing Arma - you do release that this is 2006 where an average gaming pc has a 3ghz processor and 1gb ram and a 128mb video card
if steam or similar programs were such a problem then nobody would be able to play halflife 2 for example which is one of the most system intensive games ever - check out the lost coast if you dont believe me
The same people likely to work on cracking updates of steam are likely to be the same people working on creating cheats. There are already plenty of those kind of people in CS:source and I really wouldn't want them polluting OFP.
Also the need for a credit card to download really isn't very nice, the games directories aren't as open as they are without steam, waaay too many sub menus to go through atleast (my memory of steam is a bit clouded from time).
I'd rather have it distributed with hard copies in the shops and ia internet order, and downloadably on a BIS website. No crappy steam for me please.
vektorboson
Mar 21 2006, 16:52
...
You just don't get it, do you?
If everyone thought the same way as you (especially the developers), if everyone thought that his system is average, then nobody would write memory saving, CPU-saving applications, that would run your virtual memory up to 100%, and your CPU, too.
Imagine Notebooks... Would be pretty nice to see that battery down in 5 minutes.
Think about it one minute: Why do so many people avoid the Norton Security suite? Why does it seem that many computers are not any faster than 10 years before?
Instead of getting back to code memory- and CPU-saving applications, we get stuff like Java and C#. Develop safe applications quickly, that are slow and memory hogs.
You can imagine that there are text editors that freeze because they need time to allocate memory?
Or think about this way: I've got a 6 GHz CPU with 4 GB of RAM and 512 MB of Video-RAM. Now I develop an addon that uses 10 4096x4096 textures, has 90000 triangles and lots of scripts running.
Now you with your shitty average Computer are complainig about a slide show when using that addon. I say: F*** off, buy a better comp, it's the year 200x, everyone should have a better rig by now.
So what do you do? You can't afford a new PC, so you try to terminate every unnecessary process and application, oh, but there are those applications you shouldn't turn off.
And now comes the twist: I could have done that addon with 2 2048x2048 textures, 8000 triangles and a few optimized scripts, without any noticeable difference.
But hey, it's the year 200x... And you are technophob because you can't afford a new PC every second week. Go eat your cake yourself, but don't promote complete unnecessary programs, that consider you as a potential thief.
I don't know what benefit you get from it; I know I wouldn't get any, but have to be afraid that it locks me out from playing the game that I have bought with the money I earned hard.
$kelet0r
Mar 21 2006, 17:27
but the point is that doing something as innocuous as browsing the web takes up loads of memory but i can still launch a game no problem with my average set up
if all these applications were such a problem then the IT world and the internet would have self destructed long ago - it's clear that used in moderation they are NOT
now steam running right now on my computer is using about 8mb of ram out of 512mb of virtual and 1gb of hard drive ram
do i have any issues with intensive games like FEAR, HL2, BF2, UT2003 or older games like deus ex or opf? No i do not
Having the advantages of a steam alike or steam itself means having it use just over 1% of my memory at any time is a tiny price to pay
@<hidden>
Even if you intend to play sp only, you cannot install the game without a connection and an account!
That's even true for the demo - I know it sounds ridiculous but I'm not kidding - try it yourself!
Now, go to your computer that you have in your country house (without internet) and try to install the game or even the demo. Good luck!
typical Steam myth http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/whistle.gif
Cheers
$kelet0r
Mar 21 2006, 18:10
you need an internet connection just once in order to get steam and thus activate a game
never want to go online again? no problem - play offline
typical steam myth #8765 debunked
I see.
#LOOP
So in order to play on the computer in my country house I need to take it home, connect it to the internet, install the game, validation and account and take it back to the country house. All that to play single player. And if for any reason I need to format or change my hard drive...goto "LOOP"
In case you did not know, slavery is over in most of the civilize countries. If progress means everything better for the companies and all the problems for the customers then you just lose one of them.
You would make a good Steam/Valve representative (if it's not what you are). Nothing personnal http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
Cheers
$kelet0r
Mar 21 2006, 19:04
you dont have to buy the game http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/biggrin_o.gif
hence no slavery
Your problem is with Steam and yes I can see there being a problem in that regard - rare occurence that it is
i personally doubt that BIS would use Steam but if they were to use their own like EA use the Downloader or Joint Ops or like any other number of companies - then it would unlikely be forced upon the gamer but that doesnt mean that they shouldnt at least offer the option
75% against... 25% for... I think that says it all really.
BIS would loose quite a bit of money distributing ArmA over a system 75% of voters hate.
Besides, what's stopping them using a secure FTP where you buy a one time password and have to email for it to be re-opened if you have to re-format?
No crappy programme, just as safe as a CD distrubution (with proper install key security) and just as cheap.
Maybe a bit more labor intesive, but a few of the developers hang around here anyway helping people out.. I don;t think they'd mind opening and closing FTP accounts.
$kelet0r
Mar 21 2006, 19:08
now they wouldnt - they would make more money
explain to me how they would lose even a penny
Becuase less people would be willing to buy it over steam, not everybody has a credit card, and some simply refuse to waste resources on steam. Also,there's plenty of people cracking steam (if the current version isn't already cracked) so the steam security is already breached and worthless, and when steam is cracked you could download every single game on the steam list.
$kelet0r
Mar 21 2006, 19:19
Quote[/b] ]Becuase less people would be willing to buy it over steam, not everybody has a credit card, and some simply refuse to waste resources on steam. Also,there's plenty of people cracking steam (if the current version isn't already cracked) so the steam security is already breached and worthless, and when steam is cracked you could download every single game on the steam list.
so what would stop them then buying it in the shops? while at the same time BIS appeals to the second biggest games community in the world at the same time?
Cracked versions of steam arent exactly widespread - the number of cracked accounts today probably numbers in the 10s, not the 1000s and those are the result of phishing not hacking
(steam myth #8766 debunked)
the steam security is far from worthless - and neither is the anti cheat software it provides
you'd be hard pressed to find cheaters in any VAC protected online games today - counterstrike (once the haven of hackers) included
But you still need steam to install activate, and run the game. You may not need to be connected but you still need steam running in the background.. AFAIK.
And about cracked versions of steam.. do a quick search for cueSteam.
ryankaplan
Mar 21 2006, 19:40
i think, simply and truly steam is da pwnzor. I used to hate its guts because of super loading times, but now it's almost perfect. It provides alot more profits for bis for once. However, a steam only release should not even be mentioned. What i would do, not that i know much about marketing (actually, i did get a high A in the marketing section of Business Studies) is:
-Release over steam when the game is done ONLY to distribute, not to be played over steam like CS or DOD.
-When they have found a good publisher, start selling hard copies of the game.
Steams advantages:
Bigger share of the revenues made by selling of the game goes to BIS. Automatic Advertising to a large amount of players via steam(i believe there is a realism lover in every CS n00bpwnzor, somewhere inside). Having basicly the best anti-cheat and anti-piracy games software in the world. And ofcourse the fact that we won't have to wait for BIS to find a publisher.
Just look at red orchestra and what they have achieved. And they are only a mod team (or were anyway).
Madus_Maximus
Mar 21 2006, 19:45
I'm all for a Steam LIKE (note: LIKE) system, but NOT Steam itself. A system that can update things for you, let you organise mod folders, decide which mods to launch and blah blah, sort of like OFP Watch, only official. Maybe they could have some guidelines for anti-cheat meassures for user made content of it's to be played on "official" servers so to speak.
I don't want a system that requires you to have the net in order to activate it, play offline, or update your "tickets" (like Steam. If you've not logged on for more than 30 days you can't play anything through it).
Personally I'd be happy with a DVD/CD physical release, a regular activation key like we have now, and a little utility that allows you to handle our addons and run an auto-update, then give you the CHOICE to download it, not like it is with Steam where it does it on it's own and they don't even give you any patch notes or update the "Updates" page for months on end.
Something to allow you to control servers, like built in admin tools and a wizard for setting a dedicated server up or something. Basically a single utility combining everything in one place. I don't really care for downloading the whole game online, plus that requires so many expensive systems in place to ensure they don't go bankrupt when something goes wrong and people sue them.
Personally I'd rather have a well advertised game on DVD/CD with an auto-update utility, OFP Watch like thing (can check what a server is using then find mirrors from a master server list) and a well supported community.
$kelet0r
Mar 21 2006, 19:56
But you still need steam to install activate, and run the game. You may not need to be connected but you still need steam running in the background.. AFAIK.
And about cracked versions of steam.. do a quick search for cueSteam.
similarly often with games they have to registered before they can be played - same difference only with a steam alike or steam itself you get a whole host of advantages
Sputnik Monroe
Mar 21 2006, 22:04
Quote[/b] ]similarly often with games they have to registered before they can be played - same difference only with a steam alike or steam itself you get a whole host of advantages
I've never played a game in my entire life that you had to register in order to play it offline. Any game with such a "feature" will not receive my hard earned cash.
Steam is nothing but a disadvantage. You shouldn't be required to have broadband access to play a game offline.
@<hidden> Monroe
Dont waist your time buddy.
I finally understand that the current topic is simply a promotion for online distribution and activation.
The disadvantages for the customers are so obvious that only a blind man or someone paid to not see will continue to argue.
All the so call advantages are for the distributors and for the distributors only at the expense of the customer's freedom and ease of use. The tenacity that is shown here by some participants to force that thing down our throat speaks for itself. No customer in is right mind would defend such a position.
This is the OFP crowd not the HL2 or Battlefield one. We dont need any big brother to update or patch the game automatically for us. We are not 14 years old kids that will accept any compromise just to play a game.
I did not buy HL2 because of Steam and as you so well said 'Any game with such a "feature" will not receive my hard earned cash'.
Cheers
$kelet0r
Mar 22 2006, 13:13
what a constructive response
did you ever stop and think that we might actually be arguing in favour of digital distribution because wait for it....it actually benefits the player and the consumer
Quote[/b] ]The disadvantages for the customers are so obvious that only a blind man or someone paid to not see will continue to argue.
quite frankly almost all the hate in this thread seems to be directed towards Steam - it is in many ways unique to other methods of digital distribution - and yet the perceived flaws have been proved false one after the other
Quote[/b] ]This is the OFP crowd not the HL2 or Battlefield one. We dont need any big brother to update or patch the game automatically for us. We are not 14 years old kids that will accept any compromise just to play a game.ah yes the old chestnut - ofp players are better than anyone else
i think BIS shudders everytime that sentiment is expressed
explain how having automatic updates applied is a bad thing?
Quote[/b] ]I did not buy HL2 because of Steam and as you so well said 'Any game with such a "feature" will not receive my hard earned cash'.
a proud technophobe if ever i saw one - 'i refuse to use anything new that might enhance my game experience'
ridiculous
monkeyb
Mar 22 2006, 14:44
Steam is intrusive, constantly updating and a pain in the a***.
Until there is a better alternative I won't be using it for anything,.
@<hidden>$kelet0r
It seems that 75.65% of the people answering that topic agree with me. That makes a lot of 'technophobes' dont you think so? http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/biggrin_o.gif
Keep the spirit man
Cheers
$kelet0r
Mar 22 2006, 19:48
75% don't want Steam by itself and most voted blindly
ask the question in a new poll - would you be in favour of Arma being digitally distributed alongside the traditional retail distribution? - and the results will speak for themselves
Quote[/b] ]It seems that 75.65% of the people answering that topic agree with me. That makes a lot of 'technophobes' dont you think so?although i have to agree with you - its the type of person this forum seems to have attracted over the years and I as a a relative newcomer find disconcerting
BIS would do well to distance themselves from the majority views on this forum - many seem to be anti-progress in a very strong way
After all as I've said before I was told here by more than a few that Armed Assault being a commercial success in 2006 would be a bad thing
boggles the mind http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/banghead.gif
75% don't want Steam by itself and most voted blindly
ask the question in a new poll - would you be in favour of Arma being digitally distributed alongside the traditional retail distribution? - and the results will speak for themselves
I have no problems it would be digitally distributed, but not with steam, and I think many people agree with that.
There is a big difference. I just want to download it, and install it, to then play it, without any other program being installed or modify it.
A release in a torrent is just fine for me. I just don't see Arma released on steam anyway(and the story that it costs less is not that true)
@<hidden>$kelet0r
Hey, chill out man. You're taking it way to personnally. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
This is just an exchange of views on a public forum about video games. Nothing more.
Everyone is entitle to his opinion and none of my words were directed to you personnally. If I've offended you in any way I apologize because that was certainly not my intention.
I have nothing against online distribution without being force to open an account and/or validate online for people who wants it. As long as I still have the choice to buy my cd/dvd of the game if I choose to. It's that freedom that most of us dont want to lose. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif
I think the general feeling is mostly resumed in the previous post by Kode:
Quote[/b] ]I have no problems it would be digitally distributed, but not with steam, and I think many people agree with that.
There is a big difference. I just want to download it, and install it, to then play it, without any other program being installed or modify it.
Totalliy agree with AliMag and Kode.
And btw...how is the hatred of a single program technophobia? That would be like saying just because I don't like Quake 4 I'm a technophobe. I use the internet, I buy things online, I check in at an airort using a computer, I am all for the development of all kinds of technology. I'm using a computer right this second.
How exactly does this make me a technophobe? Steam is simply a waste of space. I don't like it. Does it make me a techophobe? I don't think so. I have no fear for Steam, just hate for it.
shinRaiden
Mar 23 2006, 08:33
@<hidden>$kelet0r
It seems that 75.65% of the people answering that topic agree with me. That makes a lot of 'technophobes' dont you think so? http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/biggrin_o.gif
Keep the spirit man
Cheers
Opt-in surveys are not at all accurate of actual community sentiment. Rather, they tend to attract those opposed to the premise of dicsussion, and those who view that opposition as irrational and misguided.
A more reliable survey would be to pay valve to inject code into the steam survey that would look for the presence of any flashpoint executables, and then compare that with other market and distribution data. Of course that's an 'unacceptablely intrusive' method of determining how many steam accounts also have OFP, and doesn't accurately size the OFP population either.
Now if BIS makes a tool that does a hardware survey as has been discussed, it would be technically possible to use that to detect Steam. Also intrusive, but again the only way to reliablely aquire accurate statistics. But how to 'compel' the community to get sufficently accurate sampling? Back to the intrusive arguement.
So there's lots of people that don't like Steam-The-Product. But there's lots of people that have Steam-The-Product. Do all the games distributed by Steam-The-Product require all the features of Steam-The-Product? Absolutely not, and that's what most of the posts here are ignorant of.
Example one : Darwinia
Darwinia was (and iirc still is) released completely independent of Steam-The-Product. You can purchase, download, and use Darwinia without having an account on Steam-The-Product.
However, to get an increased market awareness, more potential customers, and to outsource the order fulfillment process (server download hosting, content securing, and sales), they chose to also distribute via Steam, as have many other developers.
Example two : HL1
HL1 comes in three versions, standalone, hooked into Steam-The-Product, and hooked into Steam-The-Product on Source. I play standalone only because a Keygen got my CD-Keys and Valve can't be helpful because it's really a publisher problem. It would be far more lazy-way convienent to have them all in Steam-The-Product, but I have to do without since I'm cheap.
Where this discussion has fallen off the rational discussion bandwagon is that people can't distinguish between Steam-The-Product and Steam-The-Concepts.
Dwarden
Mar 23 2006, 14:29
Example three:
in this interview http://firingsquad.com/features/doug_lombardi_valve_interview/
there is nice line (in bold)
FiringSquad: Even more attention is being made over Valve's Steam service. Has Valve been surprised by the amount of interest in using Steam to
distribute games?
Doug Lombardi: What's been surprising is how successful Steam has been for the 3rd parties. The Red Orchestra team saw their project become profitable through Steam pre-orders alone. It's always nice to turn a profit before your game has shipped.
really nice to hear that INDIE developer turned theirs project into profit "BEFORE" the game even shipped http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif and it shows how excelent the idea of digital distribution is ...
westy159
Mar 25 2006, 22:56
I dont know what steam is but im guessing from the posts that its a way of downloading games from the net for a fee rather than buying a disc in a box at a shop. I dont like the idea of downloading games. mainly because i have an unstable wireless net connection with a slow downloading rate. What happens if i pay my Ł30 and im downloading. 5 hours later is 40% done and my connection gets cut. Now i gota pay another 30 quid to start downloading again. What happens if i run out of room on my hard drive and i decide to uninstall the game and put it back on in the future when i feel like doing so. How do i do that?
i downloaded the bf2 expaansion pack form ea.(CRAP} you can unistall and insatall as many times as u need. as for complete delete of file ?? http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/pistols.gif
in past months there was way too many harsh and untrue posts about Steam in tons of other threads so i wrote this small sum up ...
and i'm NOT in ANY way working for VALVE (just customer)
Steam store is now undergoing major redesign changes , here You can see yourself beta version (it's public knowledge so no leak)
http://3web.dkm.cz/myie2cz/test/beta_portal.jpg
You can test it Yourself in realtime
http://storefront.steampowered.com/v/
refreshing store page You can see every game published on Steam gets random showcase ...
made sure you stop at http://storefront.steampowered.com/v/index.php?area=browse&
to notice sections "FREE" "1-10" "10-20" "20-30" "30-40" USD http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
seems like Valve became listening more to end customers, cybercafes and developers / partners ... they hired additional staff for some areas ...
and there are many goodies for developers too like ability to implement stats (allowing e.g. tweaking of single player games to avoid "unlock-able" puzzle issues asap) ... short example
yes i know there are some major points people "dislike at Steam" and complain
1. there is NO nifty painted box, NO physical CD/DVD medium NO, manual, etc ... simple boxed version is better
A1: for example Red Orchestra Distribution in Czech Republic, boxed version contain only small manual (no printed version of great PDF manual You download via Steam as part of game)
* - and X3 Steam version from Egosoft is w/o StarForce while retail one not http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
2. games at Steam cost is same or higher than boxed versions in stores ...
A2: i use for example Red Orchestra Distribution in Czech Republic, boxed version cost nearly 2 times more than
* - yet the price drops at Steam slower than in stores , so for picking up old games at ultra cheap price retail wins , for now ...
3. i can't play offline mode or single player w/o internet connection
A3: untrue , all you need is start steam and switch it into offline mode allowing SP games to play
* - LAN games can be problem but that depends on title
4. .gcf file format slows down games
A4: not true, Steam newly uses for 3rd party games virtual driver with close to zero performance hit keeping game files in theirs native tree structure in file system (e.g. X3 differences between old retail and new Steam version are only by executable and some libs)
5. boxed version of game need to be distributed with Steam too thus forcing users to use Steam if they want play game
A5: as You can see old games which never needed Steam are now re-published on Steam, there is no need to think it can't be done in exact opposite way ...
* - for MP games all what's need are server logics able accept both versions (plus anticheat must take in mind some file differences)
** - game can be first on Steam then on retail market and completely standalone (Steam acts just as distribution for first release wave)
6. Steam game must use VAC anticheat
6A. Game developers decide them self if they want use VAC or not
* - tempting offer is You save cost from developing own anticheat + if cheater is banned then his catched Steam account can be banned from game (e.g. can play only on non VAC servers) or whole Steam service (close to PB HW ban) ...
7. Steam supports only CC and no Paypal etc ...
A7: main reason is security and PayPacl can't be considered as secure as CC ... yet more payment options should appear in future ...
8. I buy my game and download is slow, or this demo pre-load freeze as servers are overloaded ...
8A. Yes this issue is known and happens rarely e.g. Valve learned theirs lesson with Red Orchestra Ostfront free 5 days trial as bw block dedicated was lower than demand but they fixed it ...
9. i don't like this game i want my money back but Steam not allow this
9A. this is one of true ones, yet next time get demo or learn more about product You going to buy http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
10. Valve are greedy and they are not different from normal greedy publishers
10A. Most of companies in biz are existing to generate profit, somehow You need pay own staff, servers and so on but consider this:
- if You buy 40USD retail box, be sure developing studio sees income from that between 5-10 USD (and that only if they lucky)
- if You buy 30USD steam version of same, be sure same studio sees something between 10-25 USD
11. You cant disable automatic updates
11A. You can disable updates on per game basis
12. Steam spying on me ...
12A. Only informations which are useful for game developers (hardware configs, drivers etc) and only in anonymous way (and you get informed about anyway) ...
13. Steam is unsecure and my account can be easily stolen
13A. well if You put stuff into vault room of bank there is always small chance someone steal it, yet both bank and Valve got insurance for this situation
14. i can use Steam only on my computer, no backup, no transfer to other computer etc.
14A. Games are TIED to account and this account can be used at any computer all around world whenever You want plus You can backup game You want when needed ...
15. Steam is perfect ...
15A. untrue , i myself use Steam since beta, over long time Steam really improved a lot YET i know about some bugs and problems BUT to my suprise Valve listen and REALLY fixes "reported" problems and ADDs features suggested ... so there is hope http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
+ bonuses for developers are w/o question:
easy way to run trials / demos of product
easy way of updating products
way higher income from sales
etc.
EDIT to add important NOTE:
You can release worldwide prior Xmas w/o fearing publishers/distribution hitch http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
also Steam re-publish games for other publishers like Strategy First Inc. and it seems ATARI titles gunna appear there soon too ...
p.s. to "west159" post ... You can backup Your steam files to DVD anytime, You can transfer Your account anytime anywhere else and use there and You pay only once for single license on single account ... license stays tied to account even if You uninstall/erase it from HDD ...
p.p.s. sorry for "resurrecting" this thread but it was always linked by moderators TO USE so don't kill me http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
coderdfox
Aug 8 2006, 21:59
While I'm a "I want a box" kinda guy. If BI cant find a publisher because of (PC game sales are down, no money, controling Pubs like EA) I say go at it how you want. Box or download I'm still getting it.
Cause if the games being held back because of a little box with a DVD in it then that would suck http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/icon_rolleyes.gif
Journeyman
Aug 8 2006, 23:52
Hmmm.... In an ideal world where everyone has broadband and a credit card account! These situations may apply to you and me, but what about the rest of the world?
Also have they fixed LAN play yet? I want to play coop with my wife; I'd rather not have to buy the game twice ... not that BIS wouldn't deserve it!
And no I'm not a technophobe! Online delivery is OK for me, but I want to see it in a box as well, if not only for those less fortunate than us with our high-speed Internet connections and little plastic cards! http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif
While I'm a "I want a box" kinda guy. If BI cant find a publisher because of (PC game sales are down, no money, controling Pubs like EA) I say go at it how you want. Box or download I'm still getting it.
Cause if the games being held back because of a little box with a DVD in it then that would suck http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/icon_rolleyes.gif
^What he said.^ http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
Here we go again..... http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/rofl.gif
I cant imagine downloading Arma with 56k. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/help.gif
http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/mad_o.gif
Journeyman
Aug 9 2006, 08:13
I cant imagine downloading Arma with 56k. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/help.gif
http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/mad_o.gif
^What he said!^ http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/tounge2.gif
I'm lucky that I have 8 meg broadband, but I'm not a selfish person and neither is BIS! http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/whistle.gif
.kju [PvPscene]
Aug 9 2006, 08:51
Quote[/b] ]10A. Most of companies in biz are existing to generate profit, somehow You need pay own staff, servers and so on but consider this:
- if You buy 40USD retail box, be sure developing studio sees income from that between 5-10 USD (and that only if they lucky)
- if You buy 30USD steam version of same, be sure same studio sees something between 10-25 USD
good summary. still i would like to see some evidance for this data.
I cant imagine downloading Arma with 56k. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/help.gif
http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/mad_o.gif
nothing prevents You to download that somewhere else and back on DVD and transfer to ur 56k home computer ...
and like i said retail box can be released when possible ... oh well it's like running in circle trying to explain same thing again and again ...
dear Q , try ask some developers http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif maybe they tell You such data if they trust You http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
I cant imagine downloading Arma with 56k. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/help.gif
Hey, I downloaded Half-Life 2 & CSS with 56k http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/banghead.gif
... hehe http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
COBRA EATER
Aug 9 2006, 14:17
Quote[/b] ]10A. Most of companies in biz are existing to generate profit, somehow You need pay own staff, servers and so on but consider this:
- if You buy 40USD retail box, be sure developing studio sees income from that between 5-10 USD (and that only if they lucky)
- if You buy 30USD steam version of same, be sure same studio sees something between 10-25 USD
good summary. still i would like to see some evidance for this data.
try this out for size.
no box= 0 USD
no dual layer dvd = 0 USD
no paper for manual = 0 USD
+ no excess packaging = 0 USD
--------------------------------
more profit for game DEVS
its easy logic but I'm not shure of the total extra profits.
It does limit your target audience a though. And boxes are a form of advertising.
If BIS could release the game early but using Steam then my vote goes for steam.
Now I haven't tried steam because I prefer boxed games, even if it's a dull dvd box with no manual. So the following may be a little unfounded and off but...
My main worry is that steam will add an extra layer that won't only require more development time but also be another layer of errors to be had.
OFP is already a very complex game. We may not want some 3rd party casing or dependencies on top of it, if we can avoid it.
But like I said, I don't know if it's such a big deal or not. I just worry that it could be.
However if it was simple and still as profitable as you claim, wouldn't everyone would jump on the wagon? So obviously something is not.
Now I haven't tried steam because I prefer boxed games, even if it's a dull dvd box with no manual. So the following may be a little unfounded and off but...
My main worry is that steam will add an extra layer that won't only require more development time but also be another layer of errors to be had.
OFP is already a very complex game. We may not want some 3rd party casing or dependencies on top of it, if we can avoid it.
But like I said, I don't know if it's such a big deal or not. I just worry that it could be.
However if it was simple and still as profitable as you claim, wouldn't everyone would jump on the wagon? So obviously something is not.
well out of all games on Steam
there was small problem with ROO because of new filesystem driver but it was resolved within days (there was public beta where users were able decide if use old stable way or new yet unstable) and ROO was first game using it so that's quite ok result ...
and there are still some problems with Earth2160 but that's mainly because game itself is very "buggy" ...
rest just work http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif
about problem with no box, read point 5 http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/biggrin_o.gif
COBRA EATER
Aug 9 2006, 19:41
http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/huh.gif somethin I didn't think about before was, what about mods, and addons, would we have to DL them through steam? How woluld you install them properly? If steam auto DL's these mods and addons, how would you get rid of the ones you dont want? just another thought, this is why I dont post alot cause i can never make up my mind.
http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/huh.gif somethin I didn't think about before was, what about mods, and addons, would we have to DL them through steam? How woluld you install them properly? If steam auto DL's these mods and addons, how would you get rid of the ones you dont want? just another thought, this is why I dont post alot cause i can never make up my mind.
for mods which are standalone addons to game it's same like with HL games you can ADD / REMOVE them on the will w/o any issue...
with mods modding game files (e.g. executables) it can be issue for MP mode but like i said Valve is quite flexible laterly and for such title like ArmAs special workarounds can be done http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif
future bonus of Steam is MOD Distribution (either using part of Steam server backbone or p2p system like bittorrent) ...
Ukraineboy
Aug 9 2006, 19:52
Just a reminder to everyone who hates Steam. If BIS releases it over Steam, that doesn't mean there wont be a box version!
By releasing over Steam, they can sell by preorders alone, as well as get plenty of money to advertise more and then get a real publisher to publish a box. It's a great idea.
Just a reminder to everyone who hates Steam. If BIS releases it over Steam, that doesn't mean there wont be a box version!
By releasing over Steam, they can sell by preorders alone, as well as get plenty of money to advertise more and then get a real publisher to publish a box. It's a great idea.
i agree.
Jumping in late here and will probably not contribute to the discussion with new stuff, I just want to say that I hate Steam with every fiber of my body. The fact that you have to be online and numerous updates is just one reason (well two).
However I'm totally for an online distribution of the game. However the problem with this is that many publishers won't accept this since it is in direct competition with their business so a middle-way has to be reached. If I can buy an online version from a distributor for less money than boxed, I'll jump on it right away as long as they guarantee that I can re-install the game at a later stage. I always lose the boxed sets anyways, and I never re-sell my games and living in Norway it would guarantee that I get it as soon as it is released. For me, an online distribution only has upsides and the market will move here anyways.
sluggCDN
Aug 10 2006, 00:35
On-line distribution doesn't necessarily mean Steam - I dislike Steam myself btw, too cumbersome. For example the Direct-to-Drive (www.direct2drive.com (http://www.direct2drive.com/)) purchase of G.R.A.W, was the easiest game purchase i ever had in my life!!! You pay online and then download an .exe installation file you get to keep. And I believe the game was available on their website before it was on shelves in local outlets in my area (vancouver); Canada doesn't have problems with logistics afaik. So that makes D2D a damn fast delivery process. For those of you who's into love-hate kinda relationship with OFP and need to install and re-install the game every week an .exe file is everything you need. With D2D you'll have it...
So I'm totally for electronic distribution. Even if it will show up in Steam I'll still buy it right away; but again an install .exe would be nice. These are my two cents worth...
bitkari
Aug 10 2006, 10:29
reasons FOR steam:
*excellent percentage return for each copy sold [compared to traditional retail model].
*provides an instant audience of fairly savvy FPS gamers.
*has worked well for red orchestra.
*steam updates system actually quite effective.
*protection system less irritating than some that need not be mentioned here...
reasons AGAINST steam:
*DRM/encryption is annoying.
*phoning home in order to play a game is annoying.
*publishing over steam could prejudice a retail publishing deal.
Online Distribution is fine by me as long as it isn't Steam or any wrapper type system. I'd be quite happy to download a simple, single file installer or even better an ISO!
Steam just complicates what should be a very simple process. In my case it makes running games on linux harder than it should be in addition to the huge bloat, the dial-home crap and not to mention the wasted CPU/mem resources of it running in the backgound. I don't care whether it was just 1mb and 1% CPU, it's just unnecessary.
monkeyb
Aug 10 2006, 12:02
Don't care how they release it just as long as they do so soon.
Steam, no steam, i couldn't give a donkeys, just finish it already. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif
Dwarden
Aug 10 2006, 17:01
reasons FOR steam:
*excellent percentage return for each copy sold [compared to traditional retail model].
*provides an instant audience of fairly savvy FPS gamers.
*has worked well for red orchestra.
*steam updates system actually quite effective.
*protection system less irritating than some that need not be mentioned here...
reasons AGAINST steam:
*DRM/encryption is annoying.
*phoning home in order to play a game is annoying.
*publishing over steam could prejudice a retail publishing deal.
bitkari what DRM / encryption You have in minds ?
Red Orchestra Ostfront 41-45, Shadowgrounds. X2 and X3 are in completely extracted format (read like installed w/o Steam at all) in Steam\SteamApps\common\
phoning home is mainly reason of account auth and for MP reasons ...
GBee reason it runs on background are multiple from additional services like friends system, account authing, copy verification or anticheat etc ...
about linux issue - birds on roof sings song that's being worked out http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif
At the risk of being flamed here. I love Valve, I love Steam. I bought Half-Life 2 on Steam and have had no problems with it. I believe Steam is going to help the small Indie game makers out there emmensely. Steam is very convenient and proven to work. If ArmA were to be released on Steam and Retail, I would purchase it on Steam.
I don't understand everyone's hate towards Steam. I've had nothing but good experiences with it.
http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/confused_o.gif
Berghoff
Aug 10 2006, 20:42
I think it is just that you need Steam active in order to play the game.
Scruffy
Aug 10 2006, 20:49
I don't like steam, too.
It makes me update when I don't want to and that's especially annoying on a slow connection.
When I bought RO (in the store, I like to have a box), instead of just starting to play after the installation I waited for steam to update, authenticate, check all files and then download the new update for RO for about 2 hours, not even on full speed but at about 75% of what I get out of my connection. Normally I would have just played v1.0 and downloaded the patch file full speed in the background and would've been ready an hour later and already in game.
The next day a friend of mine came around for a small LAN to test RO. He just bought it before he came around and guess what? Same procedure again, 2h later we finally got to play together. Normally I would have had the 100Mb patch already on my hdd.
After that I made a backup of my RO folder with steam. My cousin bought the game a week later and so he didn't have to do this all, too. And before you say this: On the LAN that would have been no help, making the backup takes a fair amount of time.
So now I've got a DVD with over 2Gb of a backup that became obsolete after the latest patch instead of a file of maybe 200Mb. I don't even know if that backup works if you have RO already installed and just need the patch.
Apart from that I also own HL2, but just because of Garrys Mod. We played it quite regularly back then and I remember all the times it didn't work because of a new update for steam (reenabling friends network anyone?). I don't even know if it's now possible to start a simple listen server without enabling the console and alter some config file with all that sv_lan crap.
What I want to say with these storys?
1. An auto-updater is nice, but not if it makes me update if I don't want to. I want the option to still play the old version if I want and have a simple patch file separately.
2. As already said, steam introduces a new level in which bugs can appear. Anyone who wants can try some localized versions of it, the german one was bad when I got it.
Just last week steam killed itself after an update on a friends pc, he had to reinstall everything (HL2 + GMod, RO) and download all patches again because he didn't make a 10Gb backup.
We all know the problems one can have with OFP alone, we don't need to cope with steam, too http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/tounge2.gif
I'm not against an internet distribution after all, I just think it could be made without steam. About some of the reasons for steam, the updates and protection: What about Joint Operations? It came without a copy protection but you couldn't play online without a valid key. There was an auto-updater but it could be ignored and patches were available witout it.
I don't know how well that worked, as I don't have that game, but maybe someone else can say something about it.
P.S.: Yes, you may get ArmA faster with steam, but then everybody tries to authenticate at the same time and nobody gets to play the first days http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif
deanosbeano
Aug 10 2006, 21:06
i think it will be in a box anyway.
reason 1
The final release date is the day you walk into your local game store and say "Bloody hell that's Armed Assault on the shelf over there" http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
reason 2
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/7123/armacoverww3.jpg
Dwarden
Aug 11 2006, 13:09
2scruffy :
since Steam started use new filesystem for 3rd party games where .gcf are no needed You can directly copy Your e.g. ROO folder @<hidden> another computer as files are extracted in \Common\ dir ...
1. like i said before you can disable that autoupdater http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif (game propertiers , do not keep up2date automatically) ...
2. what types of bugs in localised versions ? like less gore because of German law and other countries laws? and i doubt if steam damages itself You loose all the files , usually all whats needed is get rid of blob config file and steam program related .cfg filse (like winui.gcf) or just reinstalling steam self ... if game .gcf and directories are untouched there is no need steam to redownload them ... something else is if they became damaged (hdd, cpu , memory errors by OC or hw issues) ....
from my own experience 2/3 of all hates @<hidden> Steam are just user errors ... and usually such people get problems with boxed version too ...
NOOOOO PC/DVD Rom.. bugger, my dvd rom drive broke few weeks back and i have Ł-25 in the bank http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/sad_o.gif http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/sad_o.gif
Lets hope i get paid at the start of next month http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif
Sanctuary
Aug 11 2006, 14:33
Dwarden, can you explain me why a legal customer that want to buy and get his game online should prefer the Steam method instead of just buying , getting the whole and complete game .exe from a secured URL given after the transaction, getting the patches all by himself manually , without having a single need of a 3rd party program running in the background
...or just without having to download a single 3rd party application to install the whole game .exe and the patches ?
... a method several other games are using to be sold online without steam.
Honestly, i don't see the interest for the customer in Steam over the other methods of selling games online ?
Scruffy
Aug 11 2006, 14:35
2scruffy :
since Steam started use new filesystem for 3rd party games where .gcf are no needed You can directly copy Your e.g. ROO folder @<hidden> another computer as files are extracted in \Common\ dir ...
Yes, still a whole backup would be 9,85 Gb on my hard drive at the moment. I prefer having a separate patch file instead and still find it impractical.
1. like i said before you can disable that autoupdater http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif (game propertiers , do not keep up2date automatically) ...
Yes, right. I have done this already. But that doesn't change the fact there is only the full update you can get. If you're stuck on a lan without internet access and everyone has a different version of the game it sucks. You have to copy GBs of data and steam folders and might overwrite something wrong.
2. what types of bugs in localised versions ? like less gore because of German law and other countries laws? and i doubt if steam damages itself You loose all the files , usually all whats needed is get rid of blob config file and steam program related .cfg filse (like winui.gcf) or just reinstalling steam self ... if game .gcf and directories are untouched there is no need steam to redownload them ... something else is if they became damaged (hdd, cpu , memory errors by OC or hw issues) ....
The smaller ones were buttons you can't read because the localised text was too long. But there were also some things not working properly, for example settings were not saved.
And yes, his whole steam wouldn't start after an update, just some cryptic error message. I don't know if it could have been solved easier, but he deleted it and reinstalled everything.
By the way, just yesterday I told my cousin about this and he told me about his friend. Every once in a while there comes a new steam update and after finishing it steam crashes. When he restarts steam the update starts again and crashes after 100% and so on. Everytime that happens he has to install steam again.
from my own experience 2/3 of all hates @<hidden> Steam are just user errors ... and usually such people get problems with boxed version too ...
That might probably be right, but having seen some of steams bugs myself the user is not always the problem.
As said before: There are different ways to distibute via internet, without steam. We can have enough problems with a game itself, no need to fix steams bugs and find workarounds, too.
I'm not really familiar with Joint Operations, but it had an easy auto-updater but singel patch files, required a valid key but had no copy protection and there are many different platforms for online distribution.
I still see no way why steam would have any advantage, but only some disadvantages.
Dwarden
Aug 11 2006, 15:08
lot of people will name CD2drive as its most known digital internet distribution but there are even more problems than with Steam (due to CD2drive versions incompatible with normal retail patches, for MP games etc ... )
otherway is that BIS can use ANY digital distribution via download (including just ftp/http iso download http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif
combined with sort of auth/key system i proposed in this thread http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....110;hl= (http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard311/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=64;t=51110;hl=)
Nephilim
Aug 11 2006, 15:41
SCREW STEAM IN THE INVENTORS HAIRY FAT A**!!!
Ouch, that sounds like a bad experience issue to me.
I've just used Steam for HL1-mods and HL2. It's a bit wonky because of the online tinkering you have to do, or rather the computer takes time and does. But I haven't had too many problems.. Just frustrating is all.
Steam is the worst thing, I think the spanish flue is better then steam. all steam games are crappy just cuz they are on steam.
Kill steam and play the games as they are ment to be played
Batstat
Aug 15 2006, 22:22
I has used Steam since HL2, zero problems whatsoever. A far bigger problem is my kids wrecking my cd's.
I also has lost count of how many times one or more in our lan gatherings had to reinstall OFP, with the cd's and cd key at home or lost som other places.
Steam got my vote.
This topic still going? I never answered.
My answer is... what is steam?
Lol, I know what it is but I have never used it myself.
My oldest son uses(d) for Counterstrike I know
Does it cost money nowadays?
Nevertheless,I am a believer in online download.
One day when I wasn't thinking I bought BF2 (lol)
I loved it when Special Forces came out and I could buy and download the addon without leaving my house
I prefer the purchase to be a cdkey or account.Alot of places you can have email the cdkey/account info to you,even in the future
I think only single player games should incorporate cd/dvd based copy protection
Multi-player games should use the online account/cdkey type protection.That way they can leave the cd/dvd alone
And people could freely download the cd/dvd
On another note,I could understand people with slow connections may not want online download
Dwarden
Sep 11 2006, 11:39
Not sure if anyone noticed but Dark Messiah seems to be first Steam hybrid game
retail box released w/o Steam
+
Steam version (needs Steam of course)
yet they both compatible for MP
such approach could solve problems for these arguing about Steam in boxed version = teh evil http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif ...
4Bratty:
Steam itself cost nothing, just purchase of games via Steam store ...
who would like to see that happen? http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif
Oh god noes..
My .02
[APS]Gnat
Sep 12 2006, 10:48
Quote from Placebo recently on the OGN forums.
Quote[/b] ]We're working on an online distribution system as well as the traditional boxes on shelves type publishing, so people have choice
"an online distribution system" could well mean "existing" or "new".
ryankaplan
Sep 12 2006, 11:26
i have had pretty much no problem with steam. I dont want to wait another month just so you people can a plastic fucking box which is going to get lost/torn apart by your kids/ chucked in the bin by your mum/ etc. Boxes are a no-no for me (personally speaking and thinking of oneself selfishly) as all they do for me is increase the price of the game.
Journeyman
Sep 12 2006, 18:41
Gnat @<hidden> Sep. 12 2006,11:48)]"an online distribution system" could well mean "existing" or "new".
New please! http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/whistle.gif
CameronMcDonald
Sep 14 2006, 07:18
Christ, I just noticed Nephilim's little explosion a page back. Poor thing.
My gaming computer isn't connected to the internet, so any crappy-ass-dodgy-Microsoft-RiseofLegends-style-autoupdating-without-an-option-to-copy-a-pa
tch-file-separately bullsh*t will end in my waltzing into the BIS Prague offices toting one of the following:
- Protesting sign.
- Steyr.
- Motor vehicle.
- Pained expression.
Or any combination of the above.
DarkOmen
Sep 14 2006, 07:34
I would have no problem buying it off of steam. I think Valve is doing a great job, they are improving a lot.
I don't really mind, as long as I have the game I can always go back to and install. I understand some people might have a preference for boxed versions but blatantly rejecting Steam/DigitalD like it's a curse is beyond me.
Journeyman
Sep 14 2006, 08:24
I would have no problem buying it off of steam. I think Valve is doing a great job, they are improving a lot.
I don't really mind, as long as I have the game I can always go back to and install. I understand some people might have a preference for boxed versions but blatantly rejecting Steam/DigitalD like it's a curse is beyond me.
Not rejecting DigitalD just Steam! Or at least Steam as I remember it a year ago! http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/tounge2.gif
Armalite666
Sep 14 2006, 08:26
My only connection with steam was HL2. It was murder when I first used it. I recently reloaded HL2 and it has improved a great deal. Once you knock the automatic updates and downloads on the head its fine.
El_MUERkO
Sep 14 2006, 11:05
Steam was pap when it first came out but now its fine.
TBH I'd prefare something like Direct2Drive which doesnt restrict access to the files in any way
EvilNate
Sep 14 2006, 17:01
If BIS can't find a US/UK publisher that suits their terms, i'm all for online distro until they can.
Point is.. I just saw some new screens and now I just wish I could sleep until it's released...
Big Boss
Sep 15 2006, 10:28
Steam is a great tool for people who have internet.But for those who dont is a pos.
I would relly like an Online Option , since where i live we dont get those new games or We get at a Uber price , Right now where i live HL2 cost 100 us (plain edition) , i got the same edition for 30 US.
IMO a game should be release in a "Real" way and in an Online way , and ofcourse no Online validation for those w/o internet
_IrřnMan_™
Sep 15 2006, 15:05
That would be great http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/pistols.gif
Eurofighter
Sep 16 2006, 17:07
I just want the game. I'd prefer to get it from the shops though I'll settle for steam if I have to.
Dangerdog
Oct 8 2006, 23:00
Dir Sirs,
I’ve been looking forward to this games release for a long time now, reading news sights and postings on other forums, the news that Starforce protection was used on the E3 press demo and now the beta version concerns me greatly.
There’s no amount of PR that could rectify the negative image that surrounds games which use Starforce for copy protection. I appreciate the need to protect your investment and as a small studio any amount of revenue lost due to piracy is too great; however, accepting the use of this form of copy protection ultimately assures you will have extremely low return on your investment, please reconsider before seriously damaging the relations with the community of fans and perspective new ones too.
Thank You,
Aaron Smith
Balschoiw
Oct 8 2006, 23:08
Morphicon, the german publisher has already confirmed that Arma will not be accompanied by Starforce.
Copy protection is publisher issue, not software studio issue, while I do think that BIS have a word on such issues before they sign deals.
Dir Sirs,
I’ve been looking forward to this games release for a long time now, reading news sights and postings on other forums, the news that Starforce protection was used on the E3 press demo and now the beta version concerns me greatly.
There’s no amount of PR that could rectify the negative image that surrounds games which use Starforce for copy protection. I appreciate the need to protect your investment and as a small studio any amount of revenue lost due to piracy is too great; however, accepting the use of this form of copy protection ultimately assures you will have extremely low return on your investment, please reconsider before seriously damaging the relations with the community of fans and perspective new ones too.
Thank You,
Aaron Smith
I'm pretty sure you didn't search for "Starforce" on this forum. Otherwise you would have noticed that there have been alot of threads about it, and that they were all closed. That most likely means that the forum rules forbid discussions about copy protection http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif
If they released it over Steam, then they should have a option of playing single player offline unlike HL-2. You do not need a constant Internet connection to make missions on your mission editor.
what You speak about?
-unplug Network cable.
-start Steam
-You will be informed about Steam unable connect and asked to continue in offline mode or re-try
- choose continue in offline mode
- start HL2
- play HL2 singleplayer
simple ....
Sounds like a total nightmare. How about the software only logs on if I choose to use it online?
No cable unplugging, no waiting for time out. Just works.
PainDealer
Oct 9 2006, 14:54
i have had pretty much no problem with steam.
my only experiences with steam are solving my friends' problems with it.
Even if Steam did work perfectly and 100% of the time I still wouldn't want to use it. It's a heavy handed and intrusive approach to online distribution. The fact that it doesn't work 100% of the time just makes the situation worse.
If the steam system were applied to the real world, no-one would put up with it. Imagine walking into a store, purchasing a game and then being followed everywhere by two big security men as long as you own that game. They'd take up room in your home, report on your actions to their boss, occassionally prevent you playing your game until they had 'upgraded' it .... You never wanted these idiots, yet you can't use what is lawfully yours without them around.
Imagine walking into a store, purchasing a game and then being followed everywhere by two big security men as long as you own that game.
And, if those security men would find you something they dont allow you doing ("cheating") they would not only take away your legally purchased game, they would also take your TV, audio system, bed and fridge that you just happened to purchase from the same store you bought the game from. And of course you would have no way to complain about this action and they would not provide you with any details why it was done.
Imagine walking into a store, purchasing a game and then being followed everywhere by two big security men as long as you own that game.
And, if those security men would find you something they dont allow you doing ("cheating") they would not only take away your legally purchased game, they would also take your TV, audio system, bed and fridge that you just happened to purchase from the same store you bought the game from. And of course you would have no way to complain about this action and they would not provide you with any details why it was done.
I feel at home amongst cynics.
For consumers Steam is definitely a big step in the wrong direction.
I used to by off of Direct2Drive along time ago, but I notice that apart from the incompatable patching, they also charge highstreet prices now.
I don't like the idea of paying the same price for downloading as I do for printing, pressing, designing the box and manuals, distributing and retailing in a rented shop on an expensive high street with full time staff etc.
I do feel that downloaded distribution will be able to offer both the developer a larger share of the proceeds and the end user a cheaper product.
If the price is the same, I will mail order the disc everytime.
Like a previous poster I found the Joint Operations software extremely user friendly. I highly recommend that system.
N.B. was almost exclusively an internet game. It doesn't provide much protection for singleplayer developments.
Straw Dog
Oct 9 2006, 16:21
It's DVD from the local radioshack for me. Hardware packages still goes a long way. And i don't refer to my nether regions but thank you for noticing.
Dangerdog
Oct 12 2006, 07:42
Morphicon, the german publisher has already confirmed that Arma will not be accompanied by Starforce.
Copy protection is publisher issue, not software studio issue, while I do think that BIS have a word on such issues before they sign deals.
That's good news, I searched but didn't come up with anything regarding if they were going to use it in the final product or not.
If others don't follow suit I guess I'll have to get the german version and learn german.
I read the rules and it said nothing about discussing ArmA's copy protection, just Operation Flashpoint's http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/tounge2.gif
Dwarden
Oct 12 2006, 09:09
GBee keeping ur game always forced to last version got both negative and positive points. One of strong positive is, any techsuppport done is always oriented on "GOLD" build and latest build, not tons of mid versions ...
Gbee. may i ask what actions Steam reports me doing ?
i guess You was simple lazy to do some packet analyze of what's and when being sent at all ... these myths are funny ...
or You got problem with EP2 reporting via Source extension where users got stuck (died etc.), if they finished level or game, how long it took them for each and so on ? ...
details on stats page http://www.steampowered.com/stats/ep1/
that's from developer point of view excellent feature of Source engine combined with Steam ...
Keygetys http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif ... hardly take away hardware http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif VAC bans by engine so cheater gets banned only in HL1 engine games or Source games or Unreal engine games (due fact there is only 1 UE2.5 game on steam and one UE3 (Roboblitz) upcoming i can't say if UE ban cover all or get split by major builds)...
there were some complete account bans for huge violations (mainly frauds etc) yet hardly to compare with equipment confiscation (wish cheaters deserve that http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif
i know Steam is far from perfect and D2D is even worse in that term , TG and GG are way too small ... still
why people cry here about Steam/DD/TG/GG online distribution ... in most cases it's additional option (especially for games already in retail channels) ...
http://www.steampowered.com/status/ep1/
It seems pretty harmless to me, although there is a lot of it, ostensibly beneficial even.
It does of course leave the door wide open for abuse and it is an invasion of privacy.
I strongly disagree with global bans for cheaters.
I know of numerous occaisons when for example peoples children have used cheats resulting in them getting banned from their favourite servers. I wouldn't consider this reasonable if it disabled their software completely.
I far prefer Punkbusters method of simply disconnecting you anytime a cheat is detected. What more is needed?
What seems harmless to one is invasive to another.
I personally deeply dislike the idea that they know how long I spend playing games, the time of day I play games the type of games I play. Combined with the other data they collect - such as my real name/address, bank details, my online nicknames, chat logs, forum posts etc They can build up a quite a picture of me as an individual. Whether they say they wouldn't abuse that information is immaterial - if that should ever happen, it will be too late.
My main point is this, if people want to use steam knowing that this information is being collected then that's fine by me. I don't care how little information they collect on me or how little space Steam takes up on my HDD - it's still more than is necessary and I don't want it!
I'm not anti online distribution, but I want an ISO with none of the extra crap. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/biggrin_o.gif
I strongly disagree with global bans for cheaters.
I know of numerous occaisons when for example peoples children have used cheats resulting in them getting banned from their favourite servers.
Well I advocate global bans for cheaters. If your kids use cheats, then punish the kids and take responsibility for their actions.
The punkbuster approach is flawed in that you can't detect all cheats, all of the time. If someone cheats once, then they will almost certainly cheat again. Kicking them just means they go off and upgrade to the newest, undetectable version.
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