View Full Version : Barbarossa
The attack of nazi Germany to Soviet Union in the WWII is generally considered to be an unjust surprise invasion of another country. However, there are some historians (finnish and russian) that claim the Soviet Union was plotting to invade Germany (and the rest of Europe), so Hitler had to do a preventive strike. These historians base their claims on several things, like the fact that the soviet forces were in attack formations and thus easily overrun by the attacking germans (the artillery was near the border instead of deployed far back to defensive posture and armour was in parking formations nearby the border ready to roll to attack).
If this was indeed the case, it puts the whole issue of the eastern front into a new light: Germans actually did a favour for the rest of europe by banging themselves against the soviets, until both sides got so tired of war and decimated that the soviets never did come around rolling over the whole europe. Thus the whole "evilness" of nazi germany in the end actually just served to preserve the status quo in Europe.
Or what do you all think?
Jan 20 2002, 09:28
not sure about that i was always under the impression that as the germans moved east to take control of europe that they went the russian way too and russia was purely defending itself, from the german advance.
sometimes i think its too easy for people(historians) after the fact to put together their little consiparcy theories imo
Jan 20 2002, 09:29
I think aliens told him to attack the Soviets.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">not sure about that i was always under the impression that as the germans moved east to take control of europe that they went the russian way too and russia was purely defending itself, from the german advance.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I'm sure you know that in the beginning of WWII the soviets and germans both invaded Poland and sort of divided it between themselves (so soviets did a little invading themselves). Then they made a sort of alliance (The Ribbentrob Treaty) not to attack each other. In the officially accepted version of history, Hitler has been blamed to be so stupid that he entered a two-front war by invading Soviet Union after the treaty had been in place for a while. So was Hitler stupid or was Stalin about to breach the treaty by attacking west, so germans had to do a pre-emptive strike? Why else would soviet forces be in attack posture (a documented fact)?
Jan 20 2002, 09:41
ah well it seems you have done your homework so indeed it could be a viable conspiracy theory then.
I was just telling this as an example how things can actually sometimes work out. It was good that two people of questionable sanity (Hitler and Stalin) just kicked the crap out of each other instead of (mostly) somebody else. Unfortunately a huge lot of their soldiers had to die, because of their insanity.
hitler wanted a german empire : the Reich
the germany was too small for the amount of population in it : only solution = expension
hitler wanted to expend germany to the east because in his mind the people who lived there was unable to fight correctly against a blitz-type attack , but before attacking russia , he needed more ressources and to be quiet he needed to destroy the western forces wich could be dangerous and could open a second front
so , he signed the treaty with staline to be quiet in the east and to leave him(hitler) the time to prepare himself
and he signed because , in the near future (before 1941) he would have to move his forces to the east
but hitler in his book has said that he would like to invade the russia to give the germany more place and more ressources , and he could do a lot for the "races purety"
I think that Hitler probably wanted Russia like you said. But he wasn't finished in the west, when Barbarossa took place. There was the issue with U.K. still completely open. Thus he might have been forced to ivade earlier, because there were reports of imminent russian invasion. Who knows?
but during barbarossa , the red army was unable to attack the germany
They were unable to attack Germany, because the german pre-emptive attack (Barbarossa) slaughtered and destroyed the soviet attack posture deployed men and materiel. It was a shooting gallery. That's what happens if somebody attacks your troops preparing for an attack.
no , they were really unable to attack germany , do you want a comparaison of the material beetwen the two sides ?
for exemple :
me109 vs I16
he111 vs TB3
pzkpfwg4 vs BT7
Jan 20 2002, 10:54
well the russians did compeltely outnumber the germans
the germans had 3000 tanks to 7000 russians tanks
however about 4000 of the russian tanks were broken down
the initial blitzkrieg into germany was a amzing achievement by military standards, 2000 russians planes kinocked out within 2 weeks to the loss of 140 German planes, and 3million Russian prisoners were taken in the first month, in fact so many prisoners were taken that they ended up shooting them as they couldnt take anymore
However one thing that shocked one of the German generals was that by the end of 1941 the Russians failed to realise that as a military force they has ceased to exist http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Jan 20 2002, 12:06
The issue with the UK was left alone because Hitler never wanted to invade the UK! Operation Sea Lion was a scam to scare the UK into capitulation or truce. The bombings were supposed to do that as well. Hitler had written in "Mein Kampf" that he wanted to occupy Russia to create "Lebensraum" (ie breathing space) for the "Aryan" people. He also wanted to get the Ukraine, which is comparable to Iowa or Kansas - lots of food production. Then there were the oilfields near...umm...behind Stalingrad. The plan was to take Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrad, while Rommel would link up with them through Turkey and into that oilfield place. Nice plan, but it just didn't work out. The original plan, however, did not include such a split up of forces. Instead, it was an invasion after the French example: just one massive thrust into the capital to capture or kill Stalin.
As for Stalin wanting to attack Germany, that is ridiculous. Although Nazism and Communism are natural foes, Hitler only created the truce pact to be able to finish of Europe first. After that he went out to kill Communism. The reason for attacking troops placed on the border were simple: Stalin was in command in those days, and he was useless. Please note what happened in 1942: Hitler assumed command over the armed forces, and Stalin relieved himself from command. interesting, huh http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Soviet Union was very capable of attacking Germany, considering they already had the best tank in the whole war: T-34 plus a serious industry base. But since the soviet troops were in attack posture, the german pre-emptive offensive destroyed or captured 3500 tanks and 6000 planes during the first three weeks of the war. During following months, about 3000 more tanks and artillery pieces were lost. The germans knocked out more materiel that they had themselves! I doubt it that Stalin was so stupid as to deploy his troops into attack posture if he was intent on defense.
Besides, the concept of Stalin attaking Germany is not stupid at all. Stalin had already demonstrated willingness for expansion by conquering half of Poland, the Baltic states and parts of Finland. So really, he probably wanted to expand rodina and the influence of communism.
I'm not claiming that Hitler wasn't nuts. I'm just saying that he did all of us europeans a favour by stinging the bear, until it went back to sleep.
Jan 21 2002, 11:45
To protect yourself, you dont need to force yourself right into your enemies homeland, the germans could have properly fortifeid themselves without going that far into russia.
The advanced scout puma's could see the kremlin.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">To protect yourself, you dont need to force yourself right into your enemies homeland, the germans could have properly fortifeid themselves without going that far into russia.
The advanced scout puma's could see the kremlin.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Yeah, but if you are nuts like Hitler was and also want to kick commie butt, you just don't do that kind of a halt of offensive. I'm just trying to make you all appreciate the fact that with his expansionist exploits, Hitler accidentally protected the whole of europe from the russian bear. Ironically, malicious intents sometimes sprout something good.
One of the reasons why Hitler so hastily wanted to conquer Russia was Russias bad performance against Finland. During four months of winter war at the end of the 39 Russians lost around 1.000.000 soldiers and big amount of equipment against poorly equipped but well trained and motivated Finns.
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