AP Mines

[bn880]

Hello,

I know it is probably completely too late to request, but I would just like to know if Anti Personnel mine technology will be supported in the Armed Assault game engine.

For example, to enable the man simulation to hit / damage objects, or interact in any passive way.

Or to have a "trigger mass" setting for addon mines. (in config)

Currently AP mines and trip wires are extremely inefficient as the game engine has that lack of features hard coded.

Regards

I am no fan af AP mines, but once you support bombs, mines are not very different. Many bombs and bomblets do not detonate anyway, and are colored yellow etc.

[akhen]

I don't think they will reveal any kind of information right now... http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/sad_o.gif

"When the time is right" - just hoping it's going to be soon http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif

[bn880]

Information about AP mines? Well, okay then. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif Then at least it's some suggestion.

[turms]

Well there are tripwires in the fdfmod allready...

[gandalf the white]

Well there are tripwires in the fdfmod allready...
da, but the AI walks around them.

[bn880]

And there are CoC mines. Have you checked the implementation?

[kavoven]

Just place a trigger with "Setdammge 1" and create a shell... http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/nener.gif

[Major Woody]

The minepack from Spesnatz Mode works perfectly whitout any triggers. Unfortunatly the config are in russian and total impossible to read... http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif

[bn880]

Okay, yeah I guess we don't need anything to get real AP mines. Fine by me.... http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/goodnight.gif

[Major Woody]

If only the config wasin english  http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif

[bn880]

http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/banghead.gif Then what? No one has ever made proper AP mines, and not in russian configs either. You want to say they did, prove it. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/help.gif

Try about 400 of them in multiplayer, let me know how it turns out.

[Warrior X™]

Try about 400 of them in multiplayer, let me know how it turns out.
l.........a......a........a.......ggg....g  http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif

Yeah we could use some real type AP mines. Where AI will even trip them off. These things lack in ofp. Sure we have the tripwires in FDF and CoC mines and others. But they all fail to have that aspect bn880 is talking about. I'd like to see AP mines that are various in construction and react as they should. And if bodies get chucked through the air and hit something that the object it hits gets some form off damage if only a scrath or something. So you can see the dammage of the blast, not only a body and some blackened crater on the spot where the explosion was.

[Heatseeker]

http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/banghead.gif  Then what?  No one has ever made proper AP mines, and not in russian configs either.  You want to say they did, prove it.  http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/help.gif

Try about 400 of them in multiplayer, let me know how it turns out.
They did the best they could, it is an impressive package and it worked with a.i. too.
Ofcourse if BIS is to support ap mines and tripwires in the game without the need of external scripts (like the ATmines) it will be much better, lets just hope for the best http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif .

[Antichrist]

Proper AP mines will be great. I have to admit that OFP had quite bad implementation of any mines. I've been playing the game for 4 years and I rarely used mines AT or AP. Especially scripted ones - they required too much effort... http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif

[4 IN 1]

Try about 400 of them in multiplayer, let me know how it turns out.
l.........a......a........a.......ggg....g  http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif

Yeah we could use some real type AP mines. Where AI will even trip them off. These things lack in ofp. Sure we have the tripwires in FDF and CoC mines and others. But they all fail to have that aspect bn880 is talking about. I'd like to see AP mines that are various in construction and react as they should. And if bodies get chucked through the air and hit something that the object it hits gets some form off damage if only a scrath or something. So you can see the dammage of the blast, not only a body and some blackened crater on the spot where the explosion was.
seems you just have a taste on the LOLv4 http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/biggrin_o.gif

i agree with that, this is one thing OFP always lack
but is that damage thing is something for DIB?

[Sepe]

Mapfact mines anyone? Their AP mine kills AI like hell and works perfectly without any triggers... And can be used to create a nice chain reaction http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/tounge2.gif

[lwlooz]

Oh for crying out loud,
Could you guys please check the scripts of all those AP mines you mentioned and then come back and read what bn880 requested? Thanks a lot

[Mr_Tea]

Mapfact mines anyone? Their AP mine kills AI like hell and works perfectly without any triggers... And can be used to create a nice chain reaction http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/tounge2.gif
I tested them some time ago, they work perfect. Only the chain reaction could produce big lag, it could be that around 50 - 60 AP mines are a little too much. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif

[bn880]

Feel free to lock this thread, I've had just about enough.

Maybe we don't even want to request ropes or vehicle in vehicle transport, or multi gun positions in Game 2, we all know how great all those have been overcome... http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/icon_rolleyes.gif

[DracoPaladore]

I think Bn880 is going for ease of implementation. Personally, I don't use half the scripts and stuff add-ons come with because they're a pain in the ass to use. Alt_Tab, write down, back in, put in back, copy paste, rename mine, rename variables, copy paste, over and over until you die of boredome before you get any mines in there.

In fact, I wish there were alot of 'buttons' and 'sliders' we can use in the editor to ease the mission making process. I don't care how insulted some of you 'profession 100% ub3r effort' players are, I just want to be able to adjust how high my machine gun is without having to dick around with some long string of text and code that I can't be half-arsed to remember in my limited spare time.

[Jinef]

Quote[/b] ]
George: Sir, just one thing. If we should happen to tread on a mine, what do we do?

Edmund: Well, normal procedure, Lieutenant, is to jump 200 feet into the air and scatter yourself over a wide area.

George: Oh... righto then.


Short Version: No, Bn880 is not talking about 'ease of implementation' he is talking about it done fucking properly by the people who have the source code.

Long Version: Understand that Bn880 was one of the people who made CoC mines several years ago, way before mapfact or any other addon maker. They tried every possible of way implementing it and none of them were terribly efficient. They all require a extension system to be run to detect if there is any people in close proximity to the mine ...

'Hard-Coded' means that it is within the game engine's source code. If mine detection was 'hard-coded' there would be a considerable difference in performance, as the coding would be part of the game's normal functions and done efficiently as possible.

So using this system you could have something people in the military call a 'mine-field'. This is basically a large amount of mines concentrated into one area. This is useful for slowing down an enemy or focusing his movement somewhere else.

Bn880 is interested in seeing a realistic AP mine simulation, or he is interested in making one. He would just like some hard coding to support it instead of having to use inefficient coding hacks. I just hope people don't misunderstand what Bn880 is asking for.

[DracoPaladore]

Ah, I see then. My mistake for misunderstanding.

[wheres my rabbit ?]

err wild stab in the dark ..

how does the game collision detection know when your in close proximty to a tank (eg getting run over ) to kill you ?

and would it be posible to produce a model (static) that would use this detection to trigger yer mine script

instead of a fast (lag) loop in script

forgive me if that sound rediculous ive been up all night http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/tounge2.gif

[UNN]

Quote[/b] ]how does the game collision detection know when your in close proximty to a tank (eg getting run over ) to kill you  ?

I've been unable to get infantry collisions to affect static objects or vehicles.

It works with vehicles. They will damage a mine object enough, to call it's killed event. Although you also have the problem of addons using variations in their geometry, some don't represent the wheels. But you can get round that, with careful design of the geo lod. So you can still make plenty of fancy types of IED.

All they have to add is the extra collision stuff for infantry. Perhaps it’s wishfull thinking on my part, but I hope Armed Assault is all ready well into it’s final beta testing stage?

[Jinef]

No, you cannot use collision detection of infantry to set off mines. If it was possible it would be in VBS by now...

http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/rofl.gif

*Bn880 spanks me*

http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/inlove.gif

Anyway ...

I think this thread only needed to be 1 post long.

[UNN]

Quote[/b] ]No, you cannot use collision detection of infantry to set off mines. If it was possible it would be in VBS by now...

Well, I should have said. I have had some success, but nothing conclusive. But let's hope Bn880 is not just taking favours, from your pliant nature  http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/tounge2.gif

[bn880]

What is this "some success" then?
Only infantry causing an event is _some_ success... we know already about AT mines etc.



This should be 2 post long, Mine, then a BIS official's. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/yay.gif Wishful.

[UNN]

Quote[/b] ]What is this "some success" then?  
Only infantry causing an event is _some_ success...

Yep, I can get an infantry guy to call an event due to collision. But my initial attempts to get it into a form that could be used as an addon, did not work to well. Although I've yet to spend any real amount of time on it.


Quote[/b] ]we know already about AT mines etc.

I've not seen anything using it, which is a shame. Look at the Lib Mod AT mines, they lagged like crazy. When there was no need for any intensive, looping scripts. Such a simple, lag free, collision event method, could be used for all kinds of things.


Quote[/b] ]This should be 2 post long, Mine, then a BIS official's.

I wouldn’t know about that, but the sticky topic at the top of this forum, seemed pretty explicit?

[bn880]

Then Im sure you are generous enough to share with everyone how you are getting this event. Perhaps I or someone else here will have some success in turning it into a usable form? http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif

[Dinger]

UNN is correct -- IIRC, you can get "collision detection" on infantry, a la prosphere. The problem is that it doesn't work 100% of the time (for example, walking slowly); it's sensitive to other things (like bullets flying through it), and ultimately requires polling as well.

One of the big russian mods of mines is more or less a "borrowing" of CoC stuff with additional models.
CoC Mines (originally started with 1.46 and back before init EHs were global) takes a threaded approach, using EHs for effects and periodic polling for MP synchronization. Submunition effect fields are spoofed on remote clients to reduce lag. There are FPS chunders when you set off claymores and stuff, and to be honest, there are ways we can improve these.
Detonation of CoC mines occurs when they are "killed" (damage = 1). The standard way to "kill" a mine is use a trigger; so above a couple dozen mines, the strain on system resources is noticeable.

Mapfact uses a pure object-oriented polling system for their mines. In other words, each mine starts a script that (ideally) polls something like 1000 times a second (or 100) checking for unit proximity. Likewise, this creates a drain on resources.

Another approach is to only make the player susceptible to mines. That's just not fun.

The ATMine class uses very few OFP engine resources and goes off without fail when a vehicle of Tank class passes over. Ideally, a new build should include the functionality to extend mines to other classes (maybe with an arming period, so a human can place one and walk away).

My particular vocation as modmaker has always been to extend the functionality of the OFP engine by adding stuff that's not there, and in the process produce a more realistic simulation. I -- and my colleagues here and on OFPEC -- can hack up some interesting and cool things. By making these hacks unnecessary, BIS does not deprive us of our calling, but rather allows us to go further, to push the envelope of what is possible.
There will always be something to hack on the OFP/AA engine; just because a hack or workaround exists doesn't make it any less of a limitation. Remove those limitations, and we'll take on the next line of limitations.

[UNN]

Quote[/b] ]Then Im sure you are generous enough to share with everyone how you are getting this event.  Perhaps I or someone else here will have some success in turning it into a usable form?

Sure, but it's no where near pretty. It was just something I stumbled across, when working on another addon. I have no plans to make any Mine packs, so if someone can make some use of it.


Quote[/b] ]you can get "collision detection" on infantry, a la prosphere.

Not sure what a prosphere is, but I'm guessing that works by polling it's position for any changes? Which was something I considered as a backup method. Assuming 400 versions of a very basic looping script, won't lag that much more than just having 400 static objects visible on screen?


Quote[/b] ]Another approach is to only make the player susceptible to mines. That's just not fun.

AP mines for human players only is easy enough, using User Actions. If the AI could also trigger those on thier own, that would give us a quick route to AP mines for all.


Quote[/b] ]The ATMine class uses very few OFP engine resources and goes off without fail when a vehicle of Tank class passes over. Ideally, a new build should include the functionality to extend mines to other classes (maybe  with an arming period, so a human can place one and walk away).

Yeah, that would be the ideal scenario. But failing that, with the option to create triggers via scripts. There are probably a few methods of creating Mine field objects, that don't take to much from the CPU.

I can get the object (well vehicle) to self-destruct on contact with an infantry player, but the process might not prove to be any better than any other method when done on mass. That’s why I wanted to get it into a basic form first, for testing.

Give me a chance to tidy it up. Then I will send you what little I have so far, perhaps it can be put to good use?

[bn880]

UNN is correct -- IIRC, you can get "collision detection" on infantry, a la prosphere. The problem is that it doesn't work 100% of the time (for example, walking slowly); it's sensitive to other things (like bullets flying through it), and ultimately requires polling as well.
The only collision detection on infantry that I have seen is man to man simulation. So this will be interesting. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/biggrin_o.gif

Also, this is entirely off topic. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Dinger]

Damn UNN -- I'm gonna owe you a cupola pints at some point. If you go to cyprus at some point soon, let me know.

[UNN]

Quote[/b] ]The only collision detection on infantry that I have seen is man to man simulation.

Yeah, I noticed that. Although I never messed around with their armour values, to see if you could killed one with a collision.


Quote[/b] ]I'm gonna owe you a cupola pints at some point. If you go to cyprus at some point soon, let me know.

Cheers, but you may yet want to pour them over my head http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif When you see how crappy the examples are, I've sent you.

Sorry, all this, is off topic. But to try and drag it back.

If I were to think of how AP mines might be supported by Armed Assault, hopefully without having to code anything significant. It would have to be either:

A parameter for user actions in the config, that also allows AI units to activate them. Rather than just the Players camera.

Or objects with a mass of -1, get destroyed (calls the killed event) on collision with infantry or vehicles.

[funnyguy1]

Look, If we have working ap/at mines, no matter what kind, we would need working sappers! http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/inlove.gif

sorry for ot bn880, but you have to admit it`s quite interesting thing... http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif

[bn880]

funnyguy eh, no worries, that's actually ON topic.

Thanks UNN, its an idea, but not sure how far it can make it, on the simple fact that OFP likes speed for those vehicles to do dmg... we'll see.