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shinRaiden
Oct 18 2005, 16:30
21 days left in the US people! http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/biggrin_o.gif


Quote[/b] ]First off, I'm not a console fanboy, and to be honest the best use of them imho is for wheel chocks on trucks. I've always preferred the sharper displays and enhanced editing capabilities of the PC platform, and I've always been suspicious of the viability of console ports of PC games. That said, OFP on the Xbox works. It honestly actually does work, and if you stop to think about what that means it's going to really spin the gears in your head.

I had the chance to go on a merry little vacation this summer, and as a obsessed fanboy I dutifully paid a visit to BIS. After arriving in Prague, I got stuffed in the trunk of a small car by a bunch of big burly ex-military types and driven to an undisclosed location somewhere in the greater Prague metro area. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/crazy_o.gif After being pried out of the trunk I looked around at a familiar looking house with a very familiar logo hanging discretely by the entrance. The general location is fairly remotely isolated, but the house has a clear view (free fire zone?) of all the approaches and is heavily secured. It's also surrounded by dense forests at a suitable range filled with things that go bump in the night. The hill above is also likely secured, that might be where they hid the tank. The village down the road is narrow and likely filled with informants on the lookout for n00bish looking people excitedly pointing at things while reciting the list contents of Data3d.pbo Definitely not a place to go uninvited, because as the old saying goes, if you see the flash it's too late.

After an extensive security check to verify that I wasn't smuggling in any EA contraband or recording devices ("Oh yeah, the other pocket, d'oh. Hmm, how did that get there? Honest, it's not mine, I swear! http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif ) I got ushered into the lounge meeting area. The villa is a partially remodeled upscale lodge-resort-type building, and is very nice, much nicer than the cheapo rathole I stayed in while in Prague. They have a nice projector theater setup in there, with extra padding on the walls and doors so as not to disturb people working. Interestingly, the DVD collection by and large is almost exclusively old John Wayne Movies.

After a little bit Marek himself came down to give me a tour of his little empire. He's incredibly humble and pragmatic about his achievements despite being a very successful businessman in a number of markets. I'd done a little bit of homework going in so I knew a little about some of the other affiliated businesses, but it's still amazing the amount of work that he has his hands in across multiple sectors of the computer software market and across Europe. Definitely a key player to watch, especially over the next few years as Eastern Europe comes more fully into the EU.

The first stop was the office shared by Placebo, Sith, and DnA. Placebo was off on yet another vacation so I didn't get banned from the forums for his Uber-Admin pleasure. The amusing thing about gaming companies is that when the boss walks in, the minions all scurry TO the games, instead of FROM them. The conversation went something like this :

Marek : "Hey, whatcha doing?"
DnA : "Sir! Playing Xbox, Sir!"
Sith : "Yeah, just some more testing. Who's the grub?"
Marek : "This is (shinraiden), he's wandering around today, so give him a tour ok?"
DnA : "Ah that guy. Heh-heh. Nice to meet you. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/rofl.gif So, we like show him the Xbox and stuff?"
Marek : "Sure. (Placebo) isn't in today, so feel free to borrow his."
Sith : "I think (Placebo) had his rigged up for video capture, but it shouldn't be too hard to take it apart."
Marek : "No problem, I got it" - and proceeded to yank the spaghetti mess of video cables out of the back of poor Placebo's Xbox. (My apologies to poor Placebo for having to put it all back together.)

As DnA started to show me the Xbox, he explained some of the details about the Xbox development process. The developer version Xbox's are a cool transparent green and have hooks for loading disc images off a network server. Since the guts are essentially a normal PC, development is done on a PC then quickly packed into an image and sync'd onto the Xbox over the LAN. I'm not certain about the development process for Playstations and Gamecube/Revolution, but the platform commonality between the Xbox and a standard PC makes it very easy for development. Whether that still holds up for Xbox/360 development remains to be seen.

What you do need to remember about the Xbox though is the baseline system guts :

CPU : Intel Mobil Celeron 733mhz/133mhz FSB
GPU : ~Geforce3Ti (Using Special Xbox DirectX)
RAM : 64mb
HDD : ~10GB IDE shared bus with DVD drive

I haven't played a console in a very long while, and even then not hardly at all. With any new game I always notice load times as I'm impatient to dive right in. As you well know from the PC, the OFP load point is at the beginning of the mission where it loads the map and objects needed, then the mission content. So in the PC OFP you have a big mission loading before you get to the main start screen. BIS removed that in the Xbox so that as soon as it boots up, it kicks you almost immediately to the main launch screen.

Placebo had it set in "Release" mode, so DnA switched it to "Developer" mode to switch through the missions and profiles quicker, rather than stay in the campaign system. The campaigns are all there, as well as most if not all the addon missions. I didn't get a good look at the list to confirm it, and that wasn't the intent anyway, it was to look at the functionality. Like the PC game, you've got three easy to access options : Single, Live (Network), and Editor. I didn't get the chance to see it on the Xbox Live network since they were just on a LAN, but the developers assured me that the notoriously bloated net code had been completely overhauled and it was now something that they could be really proud of. We'll have to see what Network Analyzer has to say about that. ;-) Options mainly center around configuring your user profile and your controllers. OFP:Elite has a couple of preset profiles for each controller type AND operation mode, and you can customize them as you chose.

The first thing we took a look at was the mission editor. As you probably know already, there's no keyboard for the Xbox, so that changes things around a bit. The editor is significantly more than the SP/MP Templates, but not quite a complement to the full PC mission editor. You first start with a basic template that fits the map and mission profile, then tap one button to bring up a menu to add a unit or group. Tap another button to select that component, then use either the pad or the stick (I forgot, it's been a couple months) to move it around. Tap-and-push, that's all that's needed. Same thing for waypoints and triggers. Both of course don't have the edit fields you're used to, but are prepopulated with the options lists you need make a successful mission.

This is the point that the mission editor debate kicks in. Without the full editor and external coding tools and a keyboard etc-etc, you can't make some of the crazy scripting functionality and epic cinematic missions that we're used to in OFP : PC. However, in a later discussion with Marek about the development, he talked about where you have to draw the line in terms of implementation. Yes it's annoying that it's not in the Xbox. But more importantly, it's not needed to make a quality mission. How many missions have we played that have exaggerated intro's, music, and cinematics, then suck for gameplay? For BIS, supporting technical SPAM was far down the priority list compared to enabling the users to make playable and enjoyable content.

You the readers are all going to hate me for this, but I neglected to ask the details about future addon content, since that's such a crucial part of the OFP : PC world. All I got was that "it's supported via Xbox Live, more info to come later." What's likely to happen is that BIS will make an announcement and explanation of what's available and how it will work sometime (soon I hope) after the launch.

Next up we went in-game to see what they really accomplished. The Xbox was hooked up to a medium sized average tube TV. Visually everything was as crisp as could be. At home I play OFP and VBS normally in a 1280x1024 window on one of two 19" CRT monitors set to 1600x1200, so I'm picky about the sharpness and resolution. That's another reason why I don't like consoles. But when I took a step back and considered it for what it was - a console game plugged into a TV - it was as good as it could be. I didn't remember to ask if the TV was NTSC or PAL, but you can get a similar setup on your home computer by switching your refresh to 60hz and 640x480, or just running an S-Video-out patch if your video card supports it, and turn up the AA/AS.

On the other hand, such a setup doesn't adequately or accurately reflect what you're going to see on OFP : Elite on your TV. The content has all been completely rebuilt over the comparable CWC and RES content. You'll recognize it by the roles of course, but the new detail and artistry is wonderful. A lot of people have complained about how it appears that VBS1 content was lifted and dropped into OFP : Elite. After seeing Elite however, and in talking with the developers, and in light of the time I've spent with VBS, I'm more convinced that the similarities is due to VBS1 getting early preview builds of content intended for Xbox and Armed Assault. But in any case, the underlying technical differences are such that the Xbox content might as well be all new content that just happens to look like the models in VBS1.

The next item of note is the graphics immersion. It was hard to take mental notes, because it did what it was supposed to, that is not be visually distracting. BIS spent a lot of time and effort researching researching how players visually sense their environment, and it's paid off. The visual environmental effects are not noticed at first, because you're not supposed to notice them. Rather, you're supposed to concentrate on your task, and the effects impact your experience. In one mission I was running up a hill from a forest to a town when DnA told me to stop and turn around. I did, then turned back towards the village. He told me to keep doing it until I noticed the dynamic visual difference between the views. While the effect is really cool, what makes it awesome is that you don't notice it because it's so natural and smooth. Running into town, I didn't notice any problems, because the problems with collisions and shadows etc were fixed. It ran normally and naturally, and when it does that it gets far more immersive. There were the birds and the bugs if you concentrated on them, but normally you don't notice them because they're environmental ambiance like they should be, not a visual distraction.

Of course there was bad guys in town. The last console shooter I played admitted was Goldeneye along time ago, it's really fuzzy now. But I do remember hating it because the sloppy aiming was swiveled around the wrist. That doesn't work for pistols let alone rifles, and BIS didn't go that route. Rather they used the same animation system that we're used to with Torso / full-body-motion aiming, and the calibration is sufficiently weighted so your gun isn't flopping around, but is still soft enough that you have to be careful if you want to aim precisely. And it works, it works smoothly, and it works naturally. Like I said, I hate consoles and I hardly play them, but even I was able to pick up the obese controller and quite quickly get the hang of things. If there was any trouble, it was because DnA and Placebo both personally prefer controller layouts totally different from each other, although DnA didn't say too much about Placebo's eccentricities since since on a normal day Placebo can toss stuff at the back of DnA's head in their office.

Having run around on foot, next it was time to hop in something and drive and fly. No surprises with vehicle driving, if you drive like I do in-game you live with the consequences for getting TK'd by your team members who now have to get out and walk. Same with helicopters. The controller is very flexible to give a wide range of motion to the flight controls, but if you're heavy on the stick or erratic, then you're going to bite the farm. Any complaints about flight controls on a gamepad go in the same bucket that flying with a keyboard does, it's not a natural interface. But it gets the job done, and a n00b like me can make it work reasonablely well.

Lastly I flew down to a beach to check out the water. This I think will open a whole new chapter in the OFP experience over the next several platforms, since the water is volumetric and dynamic. This means REAL modeled waves. Now go over to BF2. It's a perfect sheet of glass. At least good old OFP had tides and moving 'wave' heights. But OFP : Elite introduces real waves with real crests and troughs. If you hop in a PBR, it goes up the wave, then down the other side. Up, then down. Up, then down. And if you take it sideways it tosses you around, though I didn't get it to roll. Driving the PBR, you look towards land and see it bobbing up and down sometimes hidden by the waves. We're going to have a lot of fun out on the water.

After we'd abused poor Placebo's Xbox for a while Marek came back to take me on more of the tour. We poked our heads in on a few other people then went down the hall to his office. I was pleased to see that he too is a proud member of the dual monitor addicts club. Better still, off the end of this desk is the medium-sized widescreen Plasma flatpanel that you saw from Ralphwiggum's E3 secret camera phone video. After chatting about the weather and other pleasantries, we got back to business and he handed the controller over to me to play around some more while sitting there in his office. OFP : Elite is not a button-mashing console rage-machine. Like the standard OFP, it takes calm and decisive action to survive, let alone succeed, although there's room for jumping on the couch yelling "BOOM, HEADSHOT!!!111" when you finally nail that sadistic little camper who's been ruining your raid on the village.

The other red flag item of concern with the Xbox was the action menu. In OFP you have a massive command menu and a unwieldy action menu. The command menu is widely scorned, and the action menu is aggravating. The concern was if that was the model to be used on the Xbox, how to make it work. Well, they rebuilt it and it works. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/yay.gif The command menu has been gutted and the functionality by and large moved elsewhere. The action menu pops up the single most likely action when it should be obvious. For example, if you move up to a vehicle getIn point, you'll see a single action menu item, triggered by one of the quad buttons, for the most likely command of "Get in vehicle as (something)". If that's not what you want to do, which isn't likely, you tap another button to popup the full list then scroll down usually no more than one or two items. It's simple, it's intuitive, it's reliable in testing, and it works on the Xbox.

We discussed how BIS had grown and developed, how they had made the decisions they had along the road, and so on. BIS is basically a whole new company compared to when they did the first work on OFP. Back then, it was just the Spanel brothers and friends stuffing code together bouncing from bankrupt publisher to publisher, while Marek was trying to start a bunch of businesses and Ondrej was finishing college and writing code. Now BIS has a complex of development facilities, cash in the bank, a trained and developed staff, controlling interests in a variety of entertainment media companies, industry visibility and reputation, and products to boot. One of the later parts of our discussion was quite interesting. In determining some of their marketing strategy, he figured out what it would cost to pay reasonable salaries to the BIS employees, what it would cost to put food on his own table, and keep the lights on at work for the next couple of years. That's his ballpark revenue target, and anything beyond that is gravy. It's not at all like EA where their emphasis is market share of total revenue. It was really wonderful to see a game developer who was so down to earth, and understood the decent market of gamers making games for gamers. There might be some rough spots when the Czech economy switches to the Euro in the next few years, but if there's any difficulties that will be more than made up by all the other business stuff BIS has their fingers in.

On the rest of the tour I got to see most of the rest of the developers. The lead artist, (Ohara), had a mountain of books all across his desk, with more on the floor and bookshelf. All the books were advanced academic reference texts on physiological forms, botanical structural analysis, and lots of other topics that were making my head spin just looking at the titles. I'd been rather skeptical of why BIS had elected to do a lot of their components such as the graphics engine, plant modeling, and physics system in-house, when they could have simply walked up and down the aisles at E3 and cherry-picked library licenses. The unspoken response that I got walking around observing the developers was that by researching and developing the systems internally, that trained them to be experts in their areas of content development, and to much better appreciate what they were building, as well as more accurately and immersively create the game content. Ultimately, I think this is the best possible Win-Win solution for BIS and us Gamers. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/notworthy.gif

While the Xbox was obviously a hot priority item when I was there two months ago, nearly all the developers seemed to be actually working on Armed Assault and Game2 content. Unfortunately Game2 crashed and was unplayable on Marek's machine, but he cheerfully blamed his brother for breaking his build. On an interesting side note, I had come with a short list of engine features I wanted to see implemented. One of the items was a subject that BIS had considered, but due to weak support for it in current DirectX libraries they're delaying possible integration until Game2 and Windows Vista. Apparently there's a lot of major DirectX upgrades under the hood in D3D.10 that should make certain functions much more robust. That will be interesting to watch.

The other impression that I had was that the gaming world may be coming to a crisis in modding content development. If you consider how much time and effort and money it takes for professional studios such as BIS to create insanely high-detailed content using the very latest in 3d Modeling and Texture development, how much more difficult is it going to be for the community to step in and create content to a similar level? With the imminent demise of Maya and Gmax, and the high cost of 3DS Max and Photoshop, either community tools such as The GIMP and Blender will need to be seriously upgraded to provide affordable high-detail content creation to casual hobbyist modders, or risk a significant decline in the modding culture and a shift to more passive non-interactive content. On the plus side for now, Armed Assault and Game2 pwn for eye-candy, and the completely rebuilt engine is wonderful in terms of functionality.

After many other merry adventures in BIS's hallowed halls, it was time to get stuffed back in the trunk by the same bouncers and driven back up to the rundown cheap hostel across the street from the stadium that looked like a place that prominently featured public executions in the bad old days. That evening, I had the opportunity to go out to dinner with DnA and Sith, and a number of the other developers the next night as well. They'd all been working hard all week on crunching out OFP Elite, but it was Friday night and time to honor the old adage "What goes on in Prague stays in Prague." Except for the games of course. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/whistle.gif

Like I said before, I hate consoles, and I suck at them. I was worried that OFP : Elite would be crippled or clunky. Plus we were all sure that there's no way to cram all the OFP goodness onto a Celery Xbox. Well BIS did, and it's a landmark improvement over CWC / RES. The controls are intuitive enough that a n00b like me could pick it up and within a minute or two play as competently as I can on the PC. Note that some in the community may disagree with my interpretation of competent, but I assure you that my vehicle driving in-game is generally deliberate, if unorthodox. The mission editor works, and is intuitive, and in many ways superior to the current OFP mission editor for simplicity. This may encourage more mission development by those not previously inclined to do so. The game runs smoothly and at no point was there any stuttering. The environmental ambiance was incredible because I didn't notice it, yet it significantly impacted the gameplay appropriately. You've seen in the screenshot pics rather shiny textures, this is due to the Xbox DirectX library and GPU limitations. The screenshots are also 'worse' on your PC because they're not blurred by the structure of your lower res TV screen. When played on a standard TV, or a widescreen plasma display, the shine is much less aggravating.

Is it enough to make me break my piggy bank and go buy an Xbox? Probably not, considering I don't play games much, rather I just wander around in the editor tools, unless it's an RTS and then I can kiss the entire day and night and week for that matter goodbye. I'll probably buy a copy anyway out of fanboy courtesy and obnoxiously promote it to game store sales clerks and friends though. It's simple and intuitive enough that a Halo kiddie can grab the controller and start mashing buttons, but complex enough that an OFP old-timer has something to do and enjoy. BIS has also made it reasonably playable so those that have short time console interests - ie pick up a controller for a quick few-minute gaming high - can play it, while those who want to settle into their couch for an all-night invasion can do so as well.

Amazon and EB Games both have it listed for preorder for $40. It's cheap enough under an EA title that you can still afford to grab some pizzas and go to town root out Guba's minions all over again. Only this time, they're not going to go easy on you. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/banghead.gif

.pablo.
Oct 18 2005, 17:15
awesome review! i'm really excited about seeing all these improvements in ArmA...the new waves especially blew me away in ralphwiggum's video, and your description of them makes them seem even better!

Gameer
Oct 18 2005, 17:28
Thanks for the great and detailed review.

Did you notice any improvement in the AI in your time at BIS?

Sputnik Monroe
Oct 18 2005, 17:32
Nice and informative, thanks Shin.

Would it be alright if I posted this in a thread at the SIMHQ forums? I keep hoping to convert them from the evils of BF2 and over to Bohemia Interactive.

Goeth
Oct 18 2005, 17:47
awesome review!  i'm really excited about seeing all these improvements in ArmA...the new waves especially blew me away in ralphwiggum's video, and your description of them makes them seem even better!
Yeah kinda nice but i don´t give a rat´s ass if theres waves http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/banghead.gif To me it would be more important to be able to swim and dive in the water.

Berghoff
Oct 18 2005, 18:38
http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif hmm 3d waves, nice ... wonder if its still dangerous to go in the water :P.

redface
Oct 18 2005, 19:38
very informative and very well written, thanks

mchide
Oct 18 2005, 19:39
Nice long read Shin...
http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/yay.gif

Evishion
Oct 18 2005, 20:11
Very good review..


this little note made me smile a little bit bit.. :P (the ironc way)


Quote[/b] ]Unfortunately Game2 crashed and was unplayable on Marek's machine,

gandalf the white
Oct 18 2005, 22:01
Very nice review, but what disturbs me is that nobody is talking about wether you can swim. or not even if your movements create ripples! http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/sad_o.gif http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/tounge2.gif

shinRaiden
Oct 18 2005, 22:40
Because I forgot to jump out and check. I had a rather one-track mind at the time if you couldn't tell. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif

Sure, go ahead and cross-link it where-ever. Just make sure that it get's attributed.

gandalf the white
Oct 18 2005, 22:46
I had a rather one-track mind at the time if you couldn't tell. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif
Lucky focker you are http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/tounge2.gif .

Say, would you happen to know wether the "move to that tree" is still thesame, or changed? and where did they got the new voices?

RalphWiggum
Oct 18 2005, 22:56
Because I forgot to jump out and check. I had a rather one-track mind at the time if you couldn't tell. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif
and that explained why you are a conservative. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/whistle.gif


http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/tounge2.gif http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif


thanx for your report http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/biggrin_o.gif

Uziyahu--IDF
Oct 18 2005, 23:53
Yeah, read a bit like hype.  Well-written, but it reminds me of one of those "take my word for it" reviews.

I'd like to know how the mission editor is better than a template when the adjustable fields for units, triggers and waypoints have been removed.  Random placement, random presence and random time-outs went a long way in making replayable missions for those of us who don't have good scripting skills.

The only consolation would be that the A.I. would be much more dynamic, smart enough to do the things that soldiers would do without being ordered, like scrounge for ammo and weapons during a lull in fighting, for example.

The radial type-pad found in some X-Box games actually works pretty well for those cases where you would absolutely need the ability to add init scripts and text events.  Drop-down boxes and sliders would have been easy enough to manipulate with a controller.

Do soldiers talk or bark orders out-loud, now? I noticed that they removed vocal A.I. in Far Cry: Instincts for the X-Box, though the A.I. were quite mouthy in the PC version.

Would have liked more details on the helo flight model.  Is it more fluid, or will the bird sit at a perfect motionless hover indefinitely?

brataccas
Oct 19 2005, 00:06
you actually met maruk? no way! http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wow_o.gif did u get the privilage cos u work for BIA or something? http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wow_o.gif

Heatseeker
Oct 19 2005, 00:24
Good read, could have focused a bit more on the game and less on BIS if you aimed for a review though. Perhaps a bit biased, you sure there wasnt anything you didnt like Shinraiden? It felt like the game is so uber that all its glory cant be described with simple words so you filled it with funny moments spent at the studio http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/notworthy.gif .
Best part is you made for some very enjoyable reading, nothing i felt i didnt know already but it was one of the reviews i enjoyed reading the most, well done http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif .

shinRaiden
Oct 19 2005, 02:14
Well there was a bunch of things I couldn't do, so hold yer horses.

1) I couldn't hook up Etherreal and poke around to see what was going on in terms of net traffic. Plus as it was on a LAN, and they were mainly showing me SP mode, that's not indicative of how it's going to perform on laggy cable modems when the whole neighborhood lights up. Tbh, the trust me part is just me quoting the devs saying that stuff like the net code is vastly better, ok?

2) One of the hard things to notice is the changes and additions that are not supposed to be noticed. Principally lag. It plays smooth, without jerkyness, which you're not going to notice. That's why DnA had to take the controller out of my hands until I paid attention and noticed it. In OFP:PC you notice that because it's not natural, in Elite you don't notice it because it's not interfering. And there's a lot of stuff like that in Elite that significantly and positively impacts playability, which you're not supposed to notice since it's supposed to be natural.

3) I don't remember what exactly all the buttons and options are in Elite's mission editor, it's been a couple months and I got the impression that notetaking probably not welcome. The general policy seemed to be "if you want to take pictures, we've got a dark forest out behind the place and plenty of shovels."

That said, what little I do remember is that you've got all the basic functions, and they're reasonablely - to me - flexible. I'm not the greatest mission maker or scriptor or anything, but it was adequate. The potential that that opens up is it could well jumpstart the mission making community in terms of gameplay design prior to the next gen's. You also have to keep in mind the typical console audience. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif

There are plenty of drop-down boxes and stuff, and the access is smooth and easy on the Xbox controller, I just don't remember what's all in there.

4) Couldn't tell if / how the flight behavior was different, though flying via the Xbox controller instead of my preferred keyboard + freelook was different. Like in the videos, the voices have been redone and they barked out similar, but tweaked and smoother comms.

5) @<hidden> :

Liberals are like that all the time, conservatives only when the liberals egg them on. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif If you couldn&#39;t tell, there were a number of tracks there and I was getting switched through the yards back and forth constantly. But all well worth it.

6) @<hidden>

Didn&#39;t you ever learn anything from the dear old Mr. Iraqi Information Minister?

http://www.tatsumaki.net/base.gif

http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/band.gif http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif

DnA
Oct 19 2005, 06:48
Quote[/b] ]If there was any trouble, it was because DnA and Placebo both personally prefer controller layouts totally different from each other, although DnA didn&#39;t say too much about Placebo&#39;s eccentricities since since on a normal day Placebo can toss stuff at the back of DnA&#39;s head in their office.

Placebo isn&#39;t in yet, so I can say all kinds of stuff now http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif It should be noted that I am using the proper "Default Scheme" with proper non-inverted controls for infantry and inverted controls for aircraft. Paul has issues, he&#39;s using the "Left-Handed" scheme and most likely inverted too http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/tounge2.gif


Quote[/b] ]Same thing for waypoints and triggers. Both of course don&#39;t have the edit fields you&#39;re used to, but are prepopulated with the options lists you need make a successful mission.

Oops&#33; I missed this when Placebo asked me to proofread this long, cool text: the OFP:E mission editor does not actually have triggers. You can add units and waypoints for them and also move around the template markers (defining starting positions, etc.). Oh btw, we improved the Cycle waypoint, in that it is now clearer than ever which waypoints will actually make up the cycle.

I can tell you though, that even without triggers you can make very cool missions with the editor and it&#39;s super easy to do http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif

Uziyahu--IDF
Oct 19 2005, 06:57
No triggers?  http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/sad_o.gif

I&#39;d fall down faint, if I weren&#39;t already sitting down...

Since the title has already gone gold, may we see a video of someone creating a "cool" mission?  DivX or Xvid?

I&#39;m working on a 3rd map (which admittedly doesn&#39;t deal with A.I.) using the Far Cry: Instincts map editor, and after seeing how much that map editor can do, this series of announcements about what won&#39;t be in OFP:E&#39;s mission editor comes as really bad news.  Basically, you&#39;ve taken my left cahone, and now my right one.

Tell me something concrete that will give me the balls to once again talk up the mission editor to gamers on X-Box Live&#33;

It was hard enough to make a cool mission with all of the tools we had at our disposal in OFP:R, but now I am supposed to believe that I can create cool missions with all of those tools removed?

I&#39;ve been told nothing to make me believe it.

You wanna see "cool".  You should see the map I am making for FC:I, right now. I&#39;ve done in hours what would have taken me about 20 - 30 hours of work in the OFP:R editor.

I really hope that seeing becomes believing. Removing game features because devs are getting "spam" from people who are keeping your game alive? That&#39;s an interesting approach.

brataccas
Oct 19 2005, 07:37
I dont know waht you mean shinraiden me getting confused again...

Was the place snowing at BIS? (like this pic)

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y1/brataccas/bis_zima.jpg

I reckon BI headquarters is the best designed building ive ever seen http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/inlove.gif (this is the part when im told that pic isint bis headquarters.... http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/banghead.gif http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/biggrin_o.gif

Uziyahu--IDF
Oct 19 2005, 07:46
There are Talon robots patrolling the property.

AUS_Twisted
Oct 19 2005, 11:58
Why worry so much about the mission editor in OFP Elite when Armed Assault will hopefully be out not to long after if your main concerns are about the editor? Theres only so much you can do with a XBOX and I think it&#39;s good that theres even a mission editor included with the XBOX version which is good for the people who dont own a PC and are not so much into the editing side of things like a lot of PC gamers are.

In future I think it will be possible to make missions in Armed Assault on PC and port them over for the XBOX onto the HD, I&#39;m sure someone will make a utility that will convert missions if BIS dont release their tools.

Dinger
Oct 19 2005, 12:37
Quote[/b] ]I got stuffed in the trunk of a small car by a bunch of big burly ex-military types

I gotta say Shin, you travel in style.
Technically, some would call your account a "preview" or a "First Look", since you haven&#39;t had time to thoroughly thrash a copy. Still, it&#39;s nice work: reading it made me feel I was right there with you.
Is that satellite dish on the front porch their uplink?

Uziyahu--IDF
Oct 19 2005, 12:47
Why worry so much about the mission editor in OFP Elite when Armed Assault will hopefully be out not to long after if your main concerns are about the editor? Theres only so much you can do with a XBOX and I think it&#39;s good that theres even a mission editor included with the XBOX version which is good for the people who dont own a PC and are not so much into the editing side of things like a lot of PC gamers are.
You&#39;re assuming that I am going to buy Armed Assault.  Thanks for thinking of all of those X-Boxers who ARE NOT going to buy ArmA.

Drop-Down Boxes, Sliders, and even a Radial Typepad are clearly possible on the X-Box.

Uhhh, X-Boxers have been "not so much into the editing side of things" because X-Box games haven&#39;t allowed it.  Right now, players of Far Cry: Instincts on the X-Box are having a hard time finding hosts serving out the default multiplayer maps because of how many owners of the game are creating and hosting their own maps, myself included.

Jinx of the FragDolls on Editing on the X-Box (http://www.fragdolls.com/us/blog.php?doll=jinx)

When it comes to level and mission editors on the console, "If you build it, they will edit."

And I KNOW that there are OFP fans who would take the time to type out init scripts on a radial typepad if it meant more editing power.

AUS_Twisted
Oct 19 2005, 13:48
The main purpose of a XBOX and why most people actually buy them is to play games on like a PS2, there not designed to have all these editing options like you would expect to have on most of the good PC games. I really think some people are asking for to much especially for such a game or sim like OFP on the XBOX, I&#39;m surprised how well they have OFP working on the XBOX from the videos I&#39;ve seen.

Also reminds me of games made for both consoles and PC&#39;s released fairly close together or at the same time, a lot of the time the PC version is just like the console version with barely any options along with no mouse support in the menus which gets really annoying.

Alot of developers and publishers these days dont care to much for games on PC as obviously more games are sold for consoles because the consoles are cheaper to buy, easier to use and quicker to develope for as theres not so many different types of hardware and software to develope for and test on to make sure the game is working properly which can take up a lot of the developement time, even though PC&#39;s are easier to develope for then they used to be which a lot of that comes down to the standard of DirectX.

More versions of the same title are made on consoles because people get sick of console games so much faster then on PC because of all the options and addons that are available to keep things interesting which is why I stopped buying consoles since I bought my first PC.

andersson
Oct 19 2005, 15:10
Nice review&#33;

But..

Quote[/b] ]In one mission I was running up a hill from a forest to a town when DnA told me to stop and turn around. I did, then turned back towards the village. He told me to keep doing it until I noticed the dynamic visual difference between the views. While the effect is really cool, what makes it awesome is that you don&#39;t notice it because it&#39;s so natural and smooth.
Maybe I missed something obvious but what is that dynamic visual difference?

Mr Reality
Oct 19 2005, 15:36
Maybe I missed something obvious but what is that dynamic visual difference?
I&#39;m assuming he was refering to smooth transition of the image when moving around not like OFP where it stutters slightly...

Edit; I&#39;m getting an Xbox 360 but i want this game so much i stilll need to know if it will be compatible..... http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/crazy_o.gif

Uziyahu--IDF
Oct 19 2005, 16:52
The main purpose of a XBOX and why most people actually buy them is to play games on like a PS2, there not designed to have all these editing options like you would expect to have on most of the good PC games. I really think some people are asking for to much especially for such a game or sim like OFP on the XBOX, I&#39;m surprised how well they have OFP working on the XBOX from the videos I&#39;ve seen.

Do you even read my responses, Twisted?

"there not designed to have all these editing options"

Have you seen the Far Cry: Instincts editor?  It sure is AMAZING that CryTek accomplished what you say is so darn impossible&#33;  In reality, consoles are designed to have whatever the programmers can cram into the system.  It&#39;s not like there is a little man in the DVD drive who says, "Nope, no map editors&#33;  Turn back, now&#33;  Nope, no cut-scenes, either&#33;"

"some people are asking for too much"

Well then, it is always nice when a developer gives you more than you ask for, AFTER you have asked for "too much".  Lessee, Far Cry: Instincts has a single-player campaign, multiplayer, AND a complete map editor.

What exactly does that leave out?  Genetic mutant sing-along?

And the actual executable is one of the smallest parts of most games.  Mission editor applications don&#39;t tend to be very large in size, either, no matter how many adjustable fields you put in.  And we know how small OFP missions are if you don&#39;t use custom graphics or sounds...

I just don&#39;t like the sound of how many times the OFP mission editor has had a vasectomy.

Dinger
Oct 19 2005, 17:13
Quote[/b] ]Maybe I missed something obvious but what is that dynamic visual difference?
Well, not having seen dynamic visual differences on the xbox, but judging by Shin&#39;s description, I think he&#39;s talking about dynamic range effects.

Basically, the eye is designed to work under all kinds of lighting conditions, thanks to the pupils. The pupils are constantly working to get you the best image possible. At times, there&#39;s a bit of a lag, such as when things get really bright all of a sudden (stepping out of a theater into broad daylight, someone setting off a flashbang in front of you), or the opposite direction (turning off the light). But sooner or later, you make things out pretty well.
The most impressive effects we see are often at dawn or dusk, when the sun is brightly illuminating in one direction: looking into the sun we see a bright object and a bunch of shadows; looking away, things are richly textured.



As far as the mission editor goes, I&#39;d withhold judgment until I saw the thing. Yes, OFP missions have .sqs and .sqf files, and description.ext, briefing.html and overview.html. For the latter two, I wouldn&#39;t be surprised if they came up with some more user-friendly system. For the scripts, well, they&#39;d have to put in a full text editor to do that, which is more than they&#39;ve done for the PC. Anyway, we&#39;ll see. If it has all the OFP missions in there, there has to be a way to get at least that functionality out of it; which should be enough.

Uziyahu--IDF
Oct 19 2005, 17:21
Nope.

The missions are made on the PC and then imaged over to the X-Box.

shinRaiden
Oct 19 2005, 17:33
In all fairness, it&#39;s not really appropiate to compare Farcry&#39;s MAP editor with OFP:E&#39;s MISSION editor. They&#39;re totally different things.

First, the Farcry editor is primarily used to make new island maps. If you want to do that in OFP, you&#39;re going to use WRPtool, Visitor, or WRPedit. That also gives you the potential to make terrain modeled on RL locations instead of artificial sandboxes.

Secondly, what&#39;s with the abyssmal 300 vegetation items limit they mentioned in the map editor promo video? I&#39;ll see your 300 shrubs, and raise you the > 175000 objects on Nogova. And it&#39;s coming to Xbox.

Third, Object placement looks nice. I&#39;d love to see something similar with live camera object placement in the editor like that. But object placement is still technically a world design study, not a operational desgin system.

Fourth, Farcry&#39;s gameplay design consists of placing spawn points and hotspots, which is totally different in mindset from OFP&#39;s waypoint pathing. Remember that like Farcry, OFP:E&#39;s MP mindset is for primarily human players, so the amount of custom scripting required is thus reduced since the AI management needs are likewise reduced in MP.

Uziyahu--IDF
Oct 19 2005, 17:56
In all fairness, it&#39;s not really appropiate to compare Farcry&#39;s MAP editor with OFP:E&#39;s MISSION editor. They&#39;re totally different things.

>>>Which is more difficult to provide to gamers on an X-Box?  Most will answer a map editor, especially when it allows you to configure your map for up to 4 different game types.

First, the Farcry editor is primarily used to make new island maps.

>>>And 4 different game types for that map.  (Essentially what you&#39;re doing when you&#39;re making a multi-player mission using OFP&#39;s mission editor.)  New island maps would be useless without the ability to place multiplayer game types on those maps.  (In fact, you can&#39;t even "publish" the map for play until you meet all of the requirements for at least one game type.)

If you want to do that in OFP, you&#39;re going to use WRPtool, Visitor, or WRPedit.

>>>Right, but we don&#39;t see any of those in OFP:E, do we?

That also gives you the potential to make terrain modeled on RL locations instead of artificial sandboxes.

>>>You can STILL make terrain modeled on real-life locations in the Far Cry: Editor.  You just have to sculpt the elevations by hand, which is exceedingly easy.

Secondly, what&#39;s with the abyssmal 300 vegetation items limit they mentioned in the map editor promo video? I&#39;ll see your 300 shrubs, and raise you the > 175000 objects on Nogova. And it&#39;s coming to Xbox.

>>>YOU are the one comparing apples and oranges.  Nogova is already resident on the DVD, so don&#39;t act like you&#39;re providing any kind of editing power to the user by mentioning something that B.I. made.

Third, Object placement looks nice. I&#39;d love to see something similar with live camera object placement in the editor like that. But object placement is still technically a world design study, not a operational desgin system.

Fourth, Farcry&#39;s gameplay design consists of placing spawn points and hotspots, which is totally different in mindset from OFP&#39;s waypoint pathing.

>>>I already admitted that Far Cry: Instincts map editor doesn&#39;t allow you to make single-player or cooperative missions employing A.I.  Why they chose to leave that out, I haven&#39;t heard.

Remember that like Farcry, OFP:E&#39;s MP mindset is for primarily human players, so the amount of custom scripting required is thus reduced since the AI management needs are likewise reduced in MP.

>>>Malarkey, if the human players are COOPERATING to perform some mission, it is vital that the mission creator be able to manipulate the A.I. as much as possible.  I&#39;ve seen no evidence that B.I. has decided to leave out or even downplay the use of A.I. in missions made by the OFP:E editor.  What I HAVE heard is that the tools by which I make replayable missions, through the randomization or scripting of A.I., have been removed.

>>>And a full map on Far Cry: Instincts probably weighs around 5 Megs, judging by the downloading time, so you tell me which is more system-intensive.  A mission that&#39;s anywhere from 9 - 200kb, or a 5 Meg map?

>>>The whole point of my bringing up FC:I&#39;s map editor is that incredible things you wouldn&#39;t expect from a console are quite possible if you will stop thinking that they are impossible.

>>>And I&#39;m one of the biggest fan-boys OFP has, but I don&#39;t like the sound of this snip-snip job on the mission editor.  All I&#39;m asking for is some information that will CONVINCE me that "cool" missions can be created using the mission editor, not merely someone&#39;s word or opinion.

>>>For example, how is the probability for fleeing handled now that it can&#39;t be adjusted through an init or event script?  If you responded, "there is now a drop-down box where you can select the probability of fleeing", that would be one reassurance.  Or, if you said, "probability of flight is calculated more dynamically than it was in OFP:R through the consideration of many constantly-changing factors, like wounding, number of soldiers remaining in the squad, proximity of reinforcements, enemy unit type, etc." (which OFP:R probably did, already, anyway).
...

moe4
Oct 19 2005, 17:57
Ok forgive me if this info has been already discussed but I need to know two things...

In the single player there are huge battlefields that they boast about. Now are those battlefields that large for adversarial on Xbox live??? I hope so....


Can anyone drive the vehicles or do you have to be a certain class??

I&#39;ve been interested in this game since it was announced for the Xbox a while ago and held out on the PC version since I play Live everynight. Finally my military heaven is coming&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/inlove.gif

Uziyahu--IDF
Oct 19 2005, 18:00
Moe, the answer is yes, the battlefields can be as large as the whole island you choose in the editor, but in the end it depends on what the creator of the mission decided.

For example. You might want to make a paintball-style field, one that is nice and small. You fence in your area and place all spawns inside that area. Now your battlefield is small.

See?

D.murphy man
Oct 19 2005, 18:05
yep, the mission is only limited to the mission creators imagintion (and the size of the island - which are huge). Also there is no classes in OFP like BF2(ergh..). Any one can jump in a car and drive it,or a tank,or a boat,or a plane&#33; and also can pick up any indivisual weapon - not &#39;kits&#39; like BF.

moe4
Oct 19 2005, 18:06
Moe, the answer is yes, the battlefields can be as large as the whole island you choose in the editor, but in the end it depends on what the creator of the mission decided.

For example.  You might want to make a paintball-style field, one that is nice and small.  You fence in your area and place all spawns inside that area.  Now your battlefield is small.  

See?
I&#39;m sorry. What I meant was the maps already in OFE that are for Live adversarial. Not anything you create. Will all of them be scaled down like in BF:MC or will at least some of them be as large as OFE&#39;s single player battlefields?

D.murphy man
Oct 19 2005, 18:09
Yes, they will all be at full size. single or multiplayer. Inless the creator of the mission you happen to ne playing has fenced the players into a small area useing physicle objects. It really depends on what mission you happen to be playing. Some missions allow players free roam of the islands, some try to fence them in.

moe4
Oct 19 2005, 18:15
Ok thanks Murphy&#33;&#33;

Uziyahu--IDF
Oct 19 2005, 18:16
It works like this:

The island that the mission is on is loaded into your X-Box&#39;s memory. ANY mission can be designed to use as much or as little of that island as the creator wishes.

I do believe that I read that some of the multiplayer missions that come pre-made in OFP:E use a complete island.

When you see how big a complete island is, you&#39;ll realize that most players aren&#39;t going to want to wait 20 minutes before they run into another player. You&#39;ll have to use helicopters or some fast vehicle (an M1 Abrams is a pretty fast tank) to cover all of that ground quickly, and that&#39;s no guarantee that another human or A.I. soldier will be in THAT area when you get there.

Remember in other games where it was down to you and one enemy player and the two of you were running in circles around the map trying to find each other, never running into each other? Well, if you use large portions of the islands in OFP, the very same thing can happen on a massive scale. lol

(In cases like that it is good to use helicopters for location of enemy vehicles, reporting the grid coordinates to fellow players.)

You can always order some of your A.I. squad members to various parts of the map to act as scouts. They will report enemy sightings to you. When they do, you&#39;ll know the location and eventually the type of enemy forces in that location (if your scout doesn&#39;t get killed before he can report further details).

moe4
Oct 19 2005, 18:28
How many total players and bots are allowed in a game? This here is probably the best and only real source I&#39;ve found to this game. I really don&#39;t know much about it.

Uziyahu--IDF
Oct 19 2005, 18:37
I&#39;ll have to let someone official answer that.

On the one hand OFP:E will be running on a console. On other hand, OFP:E has been streamlined and optimized for the X-Box. I don&#39;t know what that combination will allow in terms of # of player or A.I. units on an X-Box Live connection at the same time.

Uziyahu--IDF
Oct 19 2005, 19:58
Here&#39;s a link to the Lifeless music video (http://www.filefront.com/?filepath=/theofpfaq/omtv/OFP_OMTV_Lifeless.exe), if you haven&#39;t seen it, already. This was for OFP: Cold War Crisis. The game looks even better, now. It&#39;ll give you an idea how much you can have going on.

NaveReyem
Oct 19 2005, 20:52
wow, wonderfull interview. I hope BIS never dies&#33;

Korax
Oct 19 2005, 20:57
Very good review Shin http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/biggrin_o.gif


How many total players and bots are allowed in a game? This here is probably the best and only real source I&#39;ve found to this game. I really don&#39;t know much about it.
If you&#39;ve read the reviews, it was mentioned that a dedicated Xbox server on a good connection could handle up to 32 players, or more, and that isnt including the AI &#39;bots&#39; that may be in the mission. We havent really been given exact numbers of AI allowed in the Xbox version, but on the PC version you could easily put up a dozen or so players up against hundreds intelligent AI in a large-scale cooperative mission.

Uziyahu--IDF
Oct 19 2005, 22:17
...eh, at the cost of frames per second. Some people have been playing OFP for years at frame rates I consider unplayable because they like to have 100&#39;s of units going at once.

Cozza
Oct 20 2005, 02:30
Quote[/b] ]I had the chance to go on a merry little vacation this summer, and as a obsessed fanboy I dutifully paid a visit to BIS. After arriving in Prague, I got stuffed in the trunk of a small car by a bunch of big burly ex-military types and driven to an undisclosed location somewhere in the greater Prague metro area. After being pried out of the trunk I looked around at a familiar looking house with a very familiar logo hanging discretely by the entrance. The general location is fairly remotely isolated, but the house has a clear view (free fire zone?) of all the approaches and is heavily secured. It&#39;s also surrounded by dense forests at a suitable range filled with things that go bump in the night. The hill above is also likely secured, that might be where they hid the tank. The village down the road is narrow and likely filled with informants on the lookout for n00bish looking people excitedly pointing at things while reciting the list contents of Data3d.pbo Definitely not a place to go uninvited, because as the old saying goes, if you see the flash it&#39;s too late

Makes em sound like the russian Mafia..........wait a minute, Money, a succefull game company...they are http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wow_o.gif Quick to the bat cave.

cool review shin. Just a Q? Did actully go to the dark forest. I rekon that were the undersirible go.

I got to stop smoking.

SpecOp9
Oct 21 2005, 02:37
great review


Quote[/b] ]on a normal day Placebo can toss stuff at the back of DnA&#39;s head in their office.

I knew he would get bored easily.

I&#39;m suprised one day Placebo hasnt made the forums fruit loop colored. Just for giggles.