View Full Version : I.R.A Fired on british paras 1st on bloody sunday
An IRA gunman has come out and said that they fired on the paras 1st.
It still doesn't justify shooting 13 civilians without any fire arms. It mainly proves that it is impossible to use combat units like the paras for controlling riots. They resort too quickly to indiscriminate violence by emptying their guns at the crowd while the gunmen were not clearly identified. Here in Holland that is called Murder. 108 shots were fired, and no one was actually hit that was carrying a gun.
This is the blackest and most scandalous day of the para regiment. Don't call me pro IRA or something, but I can't see how the killing of 13 unarmed protestors can be justified.
The amount of abuse the paras got, i can see why they shot.
madmike
Jan 19 2002, 11:57
Bloody sunday was so long ago, it was when Britian was making the rulebook on riots.
The army are totally different in riots today.
The troops are scared in riots, anyone would be if they were having petrol bombs, acid bombs, pipe bombs, bricks and piant thrown at them.
In NI the british army learned so much about the tactics of controling riots and are now the best at this.
In Kosovo they took over control from over 150 french troops(I think?) that had full riot gear.
The British had no protection and less amnpower but managed to control the two crowds from fighting.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The amount of abuse the paras got, i can see why they shot.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Soldiers of that caliber should be professionals all the way. Throwing stones doesn't justify soldiers emptying there guns on the crowd. I really cannot see how you can justify what happened over there.
Yes the IRA did some really disgusting things, hence the name terrorists. But soldiers need to be professionals. Suppose you were in a bank. A gunmen steps in and shoots into the ceiling. Police on the outside hear the shot and start shooting 108 bullets at random through the windows of the bank. Only in 3rd world countries you run the risk to get shot by security forces when you are protesting. Is the UK a 3rd world country? don't think so.
The Para's blundered big time, btw this is also the general idea at the para regiment self. I have a friend who's in the british para's and the incident is used in their "lessons learned" program. So if even the Para's acknowledge that their action was wrong, how the hell can you justify it. By saying that you acknowledge a total lacking of moral values and human rights.
After the incident british army learned lots on controlling riots and now they are very proficient in it. But Bloody Sunday was clearly the example of how not to do it
because of the shootings and dead 100's joined up to join the I.R.A.
Being a protestant and coming from N.Ireland i feel that they were wrong just to open up on anything that moved, but u cant really say anything unless u were there :/
Hilandor
Jan 19 2002, 12:39
Indeed Television doesnt show the true happenings in N Ireland, my brother was out there with infantry 2 years ago and told me some stories that fair opened my eyes
KingBeast
Jan 19 2002, 12:55
Indeed it is not justifiable whatsoever what happened back then.
But i empathise with the soldiers involved to be honest, true they acted in a comletely twattish fasion, but they were probably very scared and tense. Guess they just lost it, and because of that innocents died. Which wasnt on.
madmike
Jan 19 2002, 12:55
My dads just come back from NI and he was there during the 70s when it was troops were being murdered by the IRA every day.
I have no sympathy for the civilians that died on bloody sunday, they had the choice not to riot but they did. They didnt have to be there, they are the people that cause the tax payer billions.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (caz @ Jan. 19 2002,14:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">because of the shootings and dead 100's joined up to join the I.R.A.
Being a protestant and coming from N.Ireland i feel that they were wrong just to open up on anything that moved, but u cant really say anything unless u were there :/[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
No offense but i dont see why you should be able to blow up manchester city centre.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (madmike @ Jan. 19 2002,14:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">My dads just come back from NI and he was there during the 70s when it was troops were being murdered by the IRA every day.
I have no sympathy for the civilians that died on bloody sunday, they had the choice not to riot but they did. They didnt have to be there, they are the people that cause the tax payer billions.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
True
And i never said it justified i only said i can see why they cracked.
madmike
Jan 19 2002, 13:07
The way I see it is those troops lives are more important than the scum that were fighting.
If you were being fired at and having bombs thrown at you, which could easily kill you and others then the shooting of people that you 100% believe are a danger to your life and others is ok.
The people that died would have been doing something wrong because they shouldnt have been there, they must have been throwing stuff
If gunfire comes from the crowd u aint gonna stand there and do nuffin.
madmike
Jan 19 2002, 13:15
I believe that if the Paras had done nothing, they would have been wasted with a lot of dead troops.
Also if they had never shown up the two groupswould have killed each other anyway
monkey lib front , read my post again
im a PROTESTANT , not a catholic...IRA is a catholic terrorist group, they blew up Manchester
First off, the whole matter is absurdly exaggerated in the press. The fact of the matter is, Northern Ireland has a lower murder rate than England. Whereas England has something like 4.2 per 100,000(and rising), NI has a rate around 3 per 100,000. In fact murder is so rare there in general that is pretty much is only related to the political fighting.
The BBC and other news outlets like to show pictures of the most slummy, crappiest neighbhorhood in all of Belfast and try to make the world think that justifies the police state that these people live under. For all the talk of the IRA, lets not forget that the UDA(Protestant terrorists) has killed almost 3 times as many people over the years. Of course you never hear about them in the news because they don't want you to.
There are a lot of Irish people who are rightfully pissed off that Cromwell came into Ireland in the 1500s, murdered 1 million people, and then imported Scots and Welsh to replace the people he wiped out in the Northern counties. Lets not forget that England has it's own holocaust, not to mention the slaves that the English made out of some of the Irish and sent to the Carribean.
That said, much of what the more extreme and out of control elements of the IRA do is inexcusable.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (madmike @ Jan. 19 2002,14:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">My dads just come back from NI and he was there during the 70s when it was troops were being murdered by the IRA every day.
I have no sympathy for the civilians that died on bloody sunday, they had the choice not to riot but they did. They didnt have to be there, they are the people that cause the tax payer billions.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I think you'll find that they *did* have to be there. They weren't there for fun, they were there to protest over a lack of civil and human rights. The reaction of the soldiers proves this.
It might also be pointed out that they were paying tax to a government which was doing nothing to help the abuse they received and the fear they lived in. Murder is murder, on both sides of the line, and is inexcusable under (almost) any circumstance.
The soldiers responsible should be brought to justice, just like many of those responsible for far lesser offences.
Well said Dangus but especially the part where you said:
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">much of what the more extreme and out of control elements of the IRA do is inexcusable[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I will definatly agree with this comment. The "Real IRA" are not the best side of the organisation. They are indeed scum. But what Dangus has stated above is the real truth. This is where I come from... The media not letting all of you know the truth...
It just saddens me that you all will never fully understand (except for caz). http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
SSH
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think you'll find that they *did* have to be there. They weren't there for fun, they were there to protest over a lack of civil and human rights. The reaction of the soldiers proves this.
It might also be pointed out that they were paying tax to a government which was doing nothing to help the abuse they received and the fear they lived in. Murder is murder, on both sides of the line, and is inexcusable under (almost) any circumstance.
The soldiers responsible should be brought to justice, just like many of those responsible for far lesser offences. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Damn right the soldier's responsable should be brought to justice. They fired on a unarmed civilian protest, where's the logic in that. And Monkey LibFront, You don't fire on a civilian croud just because the call you names or throw rock's 'n' stuff at you and I think that your topic name is simply outragous, "The IRA fired on british paras 1st on bloody sunday".
If the situation were reversed (i.e IRA fireing on prod civilians) then I can guarantee you that the IRA soldiers would have been hanged the next day...
madmike
Jan 19 2002, 18:37
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You don't fire on a civilian croud just because the call you names or throw rock's 'n' stuff [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
What you mean stuff like petrol bombs, acid bombs, pipe bombs as well as hiting you with baseball bats/iron bars/knives.
All of those are killers.
Thye army went there to stop the trouble
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I think you'll find that they *did* have to be there. They weren't there for fun, they were there to protest over a lack of civil and human rights. The reaction of the soldiers proves this[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
They didnt have to protest in phyical force, any civilised people would do this talking.
They have the same rights as anyone else in Britian
Now all the riots are film by the RUC to give solid evidence and help convict the trouble makers.
Generally, even though I'm not fond of the Catholic Church, I side with the catholics on this issue. I do not, however, condone attacking a school with crowbars and hammers and then acting indignant when someone tries to stop you. Anyone who gets shot because they are endangering school children, and attacking what by all means should amount to holy ground, gets little sympathy from me.
The English really have no business being in Northern Ireland, but then again, neither do the seperatists who attacked the school. We should send both groups to Afghanistan and force them to deal with people even more insane than themselves.
madmike
Jan 19 2002, 20:26
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The English really have no business being in Northern Ireland[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Its not the just the english, the welsh gaurds are out thier at the moment and they are there to help and restore peace, not to be targeted and murdered
Also Northern Ireland is part of Great Britiain so they have every right to assist the RUC
The IRA have no quarrels with the Welsh Guard. To tell you the truth I have great respect for the Welsh. As far as I know they have never done anything to "offend" the Irish comunity...
KingBeast
Jan 19 2002, 21:15
I do believe Welsh and Scottish were sent to Ireland to quell the rebellion. At least i think thats what it said on the documentary the other night.
( im talking about back in the day. Old times)
madmike
Jan 19 2002, 21:27
No the Welsh gaurds are there because its thier turn to do the 6 month tour of NI, it has nothing to do with where they come from.
The IRA dont make much trouble in NI at the moment
(probably busy training rebels in Columbia), its mainly splinter fractions.
The riots are caused by teenages generaly causing trouble like in Bradford last year. They used excuses to fight and riot.
When the Welsh gaurd was there in the 70s they lost a few men from landmines, booby traps and all the other nasty stuff.
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (madmike @ Jan. 19 2002,20:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They didnt have to protest in phyical force, any civilised people would do this talking.
They have the same rights as anyone else in Britian
Now all the riots are film by the RUC to give solid evidence and help convict the trouble makers.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
You miss the point. They didn't have the same rights as everyone else in Britain, that's why they were protesting. There had been peaceful protests before then, but they were widely ignored.
I do not and cannot condone violent protests, but I also refuse to condone minority groups being denied religous freedoms, the right to protection from a non-biased police force and the rights to equal employment opportunities. Deny this fact all you want, Catholics in Northern Ireland were being refused these rights.
See how calm you'd remain if you were treated like they were.
madmike
Jan 19 2002, 21:40
What else do you want the ability to live forever??
The police and army are doing an exelent job over there, if it wernt for them the Catholics would all be dead http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
The police force are certianly not biased, people always expect them to do super human stuff.
There will always be this problem in NI and all that I can think of that would work would be mixed schools and housing, but then that could make things worse http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (madmike @ Jan. 19 2002,23:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What else do you want the ability to live forever??
The police and army are doing an exelent job over there, if it wernt for them the Catholics would all be dead http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
The police force are certianly not biased, people always expect them to do super human stuff.
There will always be this problem in NI and all that I can think of that would work would be mixed schools and housing, but then that could make things worse http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
You say the police and army ARE doing an excellent job. I agree. They ARE.
But they WEREN'T 30 years ago. Hell, they weren't doing that great a job 10 years ago. That is where this all comes from. Go look it up in a (non-British) history book.
Here, take a look at this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi....046.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/northern_ireland/newsid_1677000/1677046.stm)
Basically, a Northern Irish civil rights lawyer was murdered 10 odd years ago, and overwhelmingly strong evidence is appearing suggesting that the RUC urged UDA/UFF members to murder him.
I am guessing that you are from mainland Britain, and I will confess I am a Dubliner myself... to the outsider the truth might appear to be somewhere between our opinions, but I really feel that you are failing to recognise the problems that existed in the north over the last 30 years.
brgnorway
Jan 19 2002, 22:14
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">What else do you want the ability to live forever??
The police and army are doing an exelent job over there, if it wernt for them the Catholics would all be dead http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
The police force are certianly not biased, people always expect them to do super human stuff.
There will always be this problem in NI and all that I can think of that would work would be mixed schools and housing, but then that could make things worse http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Even if things are getting better, one really shouldn't believe that the paras and Royal Ulster Constabulary did a good job. Thats disgusting! If you were a catholic - innocent or not - you were likely to get a bullet through your head or be tortured. The RUC and the Paras had a "shoot to kill policy" - ecpecially during the seventies. All parties have a bloodstained history.
But I do think you are right about more catholics having a harder time without the RUC. Especialy during the last years before the peace proces started, but only because the protestant terrorgroups also started to fight the RUC. Everyone started to fight everyone - not everyone against the catholics.
What you said about mixed schools and housing is very interesting indeed. Historically, during times of troubles the inhabitants of Belfast seem to move to segregated areas for protection and security. It's a paradox that these areas in effect became the least safe place to be. Actually, the safest area to live is as close to the "border zone" as possible. The reason why? Because the terror has a much more terrifying effect when you hit them at their own doorstep.
You should all read a very good book about this. It's called
"Formations of Violence : The Narrative of the Body and Political Terror in Northern Ireland", by Allan Feldman.
It's a difficult book to get through, but it's worth it. For those of you that "enjoy" vivid descriptions of violence this book is a must! I actually had to put it aside for a while before I could continue. The violence is that bad!!
http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Get it here:
http://www.amazon.com/exec....0612136 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0226240711/cyberhaven00/102-4804187-0612136)
madmike
Jan 19 2002, 22:16
But you need to understand that the Britsh army and the RUC were having thier men murdered everyday( average 9+ per week), they needed to stop this and by breaking the rules they have.
I read the article on the Lawyer and most of the information will never be released to the public.
I would say that the SAS and MI5 would have been watching him for months, maybe even years and built up enough info agianst him.
The army were not fighting a conventional army so the rules ans laws of war dont apply.
I feel that there would have been a reason to justify this but I will never know
ChickenHawk
Jan 20 2002, 01:05
Im english and I never fully understood all the bs that went on in Northern Ireland and I dont really care. It seems to me that people are arguing over land and religious shy&. Not very holy imho. Anyways, its prolly the same as Israel, why the hell cant they all get along, look at each other they are all freekin human. Sometimes I wonder if they just like voilence. I remember watching the news once and the police were sent in to stop the riots, it turned out that both groups both started on the police.. I say nuke em to hell I dont care about Northern Ireland I dont know why were are there its a pos place if they wana kill each other then let them do it..
PHY_Hawkeye
Jan 20 2002, 01:10
Let me Say this; many of you here are focusing on what happened in the past, that's what has kept this Country in the position it is for so long. Small groups of extreamists can't forgive, forget, and move on. The majority of people here are sick of all this crap and just want to try and get some normality around here. Both sides have done wrong, now both sides need to work together and try to repair the damage that has ripped this country appart.
brgnorway
Jan 20 2002, 01:29
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (PHY_Hawkeye @ Jan. 20 2002,03:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Let me Say this; many of you here are focusing on what happened in the past, that's what has kept this Country in the position it is for so long. Small groups of extreamists can't forgive, forget, and move on. The majority of people here are sick of all this crap and just want to try and get some normality around here. Both sides have done wrong, now both sides need to work together and try to repair the damage that has ripped this country appart.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I agree, but people always draw upon their experience (history) and their current situation when planning for the future. I still think the peace process is going to succed.
Red Oct
Jan 20 2002, 01:48
i fail to understand the concept that if a large group of rioters are throwing bricks, bottles, rocks, and other blunt but still very dangerous projectiles that the police or army is just suppose to stand there and take the abuse. we all would like to have a life were everybody gets along however i dont see that happening, in my opinion they had every right to open fire if i was in that mess i wouldnt want to be killed by a mob of rioters. its not like soldiers take pride in killing those protesters nor the with any other country for that matter. the bottom line is that there will always be violence its what all animals do, you dont honestly think that we didnt become who we were today with out slaughtering millions of people?
brgnorway
Jan 20 2002, 01:54
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Oct @ Jan. 20 2002,03:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i fail to understand the concept that if a large group of rioters are throwing bricks, bottles, rocks, and other blunt but still very dangerous projectiles that the police or army is just suppose to stand there and take the abuse. we all would like to have a life were everybody gets along however i dont see that happening, in my opinion they had every right to open fire if i was in that mess i wouldnt want to be killed by a mob of rioters. its not like soldiers take pride in killing those protesters nor the with any other country for that matter. the bottom line is that there will always be violence its what all animals do, you dont honestly think that we didnt become who we were today with out slaughtering millions of people?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I see......you'r saying that the bloody sunday incident is......well, acceptable?
This another israel thing ?
Red Oct
Jan 20 2002, 02:07
which bloody sunday are you talking about? im thinking of the one that took place in russia during the rule Czar Nicoles and if your talking about a different one describe to me what happened
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (madmike @ Jan. 19 2002,23:16)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But you need to understand that the Britsh army and the RUC were having thier men murdered everyday( average 9+ per week), they needed to stop this and by breaking the rules they have.
I read the article on the Lawyer and most of the information will never be released to the public.
I would say that the SAS and MI5 would have been watching him for months, maybe even years and built up enough info agianst him.
The army were not fighting a conventional army so the rules ans laws of war dont apply.
I feel that there would have been a reason to justify this but I will never know[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
That still says nothing about what happened 30 years ago... Them paras murdered innocent and I stress the word UNARMED catholic protester's. Deadly force is the LAST resort in any situation. You NEVER shoot unarmed people (even if they are throwing petrol bomb's). Deadly force will only be autorized if the protestors are fireing weapon's (gun's not petrol bomb's).
If the protestors did have weapon's back then, we would'nt be having the conversation. But it turn's out they did not. In my opinion the were shot dead in cold blood because they were Catholic's.
Somebody said above that "there is not alot of IRA activity up there these day's". Agreed! because they showed the ultimate sign of good faith by decomishoning their weapon's. And what about the UDA, UFF, UDF??? Naa... not a peep out of them. Since the IRA are no longer showing a "Strong" presence in NI then who is to blame??? I think you all know...
This new group that call themselves the "Red Hand of Ulster" is the crowd that killed that Catholic postman up there a week or 3 ago, and they are/were stoping the Catholic school children from getting to school. The IRA's decomison was the first step to peace... now it's the prodestant's turn...
brgnorway
Jan 20 2002, 02:27
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Red Oct @ Jan. 20 2002,04:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">which bloody sunday are you talking about? im thinking of the one that took place in russia during the rule Czar Nicoles and if your talking about a different one describe to me what happened[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I'm talking about Northern Ireland!
brgnorway
Jan 20 2002, 02:29
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MP @ Jan. 20 2002,04:21)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But you need to understand that the Britsh army and the RUC were having thier men murdered everyday( average 9+ per week), they needed to stop this and by breaking the rules they have.
I read the article on the Lawyer and most of the information will never be released to the public.
I would say that the SAS and MI5 would have been watching him for months, maybe even years and built up enough info agianst him.
The army were not fighting a conventional army so the rules ans laws of war dont apply.
I feel that there would have been a reason to justify this but I will never know[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
That still says nothing about what happened 30 years ago... Them paras murdered innocent and I stress the word UNARMED catholic protester's. Deadly force is the LAST resort in any situation. You NEVER shoot unarmed people (even if they are throwing petrol bomb's). Deadly force will only be autorized if the protestors are fireing weapon's (gun's not petrol bomb's).
If the protestors did have weapon's back then, we would'nt be having the conversation. But it turn's out they did not. In my opinion the were shot dead in cold blood because they were Catholic's.
Somebody said above that "there is not alot of IRA activity up there these day's". Agreed! because they showed the ultimate sign of good faith by decomishoning their weapon's. And what about the UDA, UFF, UDF??? Naa... not a peep out of them. Since the IRA are no longer showing a "Strong" presence in NI then who is to blame??? I think you all know...
This new group that call themselves the "Red Hand of Ulster" is the crowd that killed that Catholic postman up there a week or 3 ago, and they are/were stoping the Catholic school children from getting to school. The IRA's decomison was the first step to peace... now it's the prodestant's turn...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
100% right!
Something different now:
I've read in a dutch opinion magazine that the suicides in NI are rocketing up like mad. Youth say they have no future anymore now the troubles have ceased. In the past, the way that the youth chose was pretty clear. You left school at an early age and joined one of the military faction inside NI, be it the IRA or UVF, UDF etc. Nowadays most of the youths have brothers or fathers who've fought for what they believed was right and maybe died for it. In their eyes they're the heroes and will never be forgotten while the younger generations will mean nothing according to themselves. Many of them choose to commit suicide because of this. In 2001 there were some 1400 suicide attempts compared to an average of 200 when the troubles still existed. Sad but true. Every progress also has a backside. Also because almost every NI criminal (they call themselves political prisoners) was released from prison. Thereby overflooding the labour market and dramatically increasing the unemployed figures.
Yes the real troubles have gone for now, but the future certainly doesn't look bright in NI
madmike
Jan 20 2002, 10:52
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That still says nothing about what happened 30 years ago... Them paras murdered innocent and I stress the word UNARMED catholic protester's. Deadly force is the LAST resort in any situation. You NEVER shoot unarmed people (even if they are throwing petrol bomb's). Deadly force will only be autorized if the protestors are fireing weapon's (gun's not petrol bomb's).
If the protestors did have weapon's back then, we would'nt be having the conversation. But it turn's out they did not. In my opinion the were shot dead in cold blood because they were Catholic's.
Somebody said above that "there is not alot of IRA activity up there these day's". Agreed! because they showed the ultimate sign of good faith by decomishoning their weapon's. And what about the UDA, UFF, UDF??? Naa... not a peep out of them. Since the IRA are no longer showing a "Strong" presence in NI then who is to blame??? I think you all know...
This new group that call themselves the "Red Hand of Ulster" is the crowd that killed that Catholic postman up there a week or 3 ago, and they are/were stoping the Catholic school children from getting to school. The IRA's decomison was the first step to peace... now it's the prodestant's turn...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Sorry but I disagree with that, most of the protesters were armed, some with firearms but most had acid bombs which are far worse than petrol bombs. acid bombs soke throught clothing to get the the skin which slowly melts, if any of this is swollowed the person would die, if it goes into the eyes it blinds them for life.
Bricks can kill easiy.
Nail bombs are like grenades
The reason why I hate rioters so much is because they come along to spoil the peaceful demo and turn it into madness.
As part of a college course I am doin we work closely with the police and other public services.
Before we went to have a pretend riot with the police they showed us a vidio of some riots.
The first clip was a police horse that was attacked by animal rights protesters with a pole, the legs of the horse were broken and it fell to the floor to be stabed to death.
The female police officer that was riding it fell to the floor to get punched and kicked until she was rescued by another police officer.
Another clip was a policeman in full riot kit, he gets hit by a spade in the face by a human rights protester, he was left brain damaged and disabled.
Theres alot more I could go on about.
I dont believe the rioters that were left when the Paras openedfire were demostraters, they were troublemakers and deserved what they got
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ChickenHawk @ Jan. 20 2002,03:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Im english and I never fully understood all the bs that went on in Northern Ireland and I dont really care. It seems to me that people are arguing over land and religious shy&. Not very holy imho. Anyways, its prolly the same as Israel, why the hell cant they all get along, look at each other they are all freekin human. Sometimes I wonder if they just like voilence. I remember watching the news once and the police were sent in to stop the riots, it turned out that both groups both started on the police.. I say nuke em to hell I dont care about Northern Ireland I dont know why were are there its a pos place if they wana kill each other then let them do it..[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Thank you for your wonderfully informed post. We are all the more enlightened for reading it.
If you confess to know nothing about it, then call the place a piece of shit and deduce that it should be nuked, why on earth did you bother to post your opinion in the first place?
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (madmike @ Jan. 20 2002,12:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Sorry but I disagree with that, most of the protesters were armed, some with firearms but most had acid bombs which are far worse than petrol bombs. acid bombs soke throught clothing to get the the skin which slowly melts, if any of this is swollowed the person would die, if it goes into the eyes it blinds them for life.
Bricks can kill easiy.
Nail bombs are like grenades
<snipped irrelevant stuff>
Theres alot more I could go on about.
I dont believe the rioters that were left when the Paras openedfire were demostraters, they were troublemakers and deserved what they got[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
You continue to change the subject and miss the point. The Widgery report which was released in 1972 was hugely flawed and factually inaccurate... and I think this is what you are basing your opinions on. I'm going to assume you weren't actually there, if even alive when it happened... so do try to get 2 sides to any account of what happened.
go, read this, think:
http://www.irlgov.ie/taoiseach/bsundayreport/conclusions.htm
Pretty much, the soldiers got off the bus and opened fire within a minute or so. There were unarmed civilians found with bullet wounds in their backs. Explain how this happened, if it was only the violent protesters who ended up getting shot.
ChickenHawk
Jan 20 2002, 15:44
If you confess to know nothing about it, then call the place a piece of shit and deduce that it should be nuked, why on earth did you bother to post your opinion in the first place?
Because I'm tierd of people arguing and killing each other other pathetic reasons.
That is rediculous. You admit you don't even know, or care about the reasons, but then you say that the reasons are pathetic? You can state all you want about the situation, but you clearly don't know a lot about it, or care to. It's well within your rights to post totally senseless and pointless words but why do it?
madmike
Jan 20 2002, 17:43
I like threads like this where the posts are valid and contain reasoning.</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">go, read this, think:
http://www.irlgov.ie/taoiseach/bsundayreport/conclusions.htm
Pretty much, the soldiers got off the bus and opened fire within a minute or so. There were unarmed civilians found with bullet wounds in their backs. Explain how this happened, if it was only the violent protesters who ended up getting shot.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I would imagine that they were doing something wrong, every member of the armed forces are given info on what they can and cant do, this is called the rules of engagement.
The law states that if a person is about to throw or is aiming a weapon the soldier is fully within the law to shoot, however if the "missile" has beeen thrown and the offender vis running away then shooting him is not justified.
I realy dont know the exact detail of what happened and the only people who do are those that were there, but they have two different stories of the event.
I am not going to watch the program on TV because I feel it will be biased.
I imagine that it will be them inocently marching down the road and then getting attacked by the army which is fantasy http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
I would also like to add that the catholics are no longer causing all the riots.
Longinius
Jan 20 2002, 18:49
You can still watch a program even if its biased. There is always some element of truth. And if not, well, you can atleast say you saw it and it was biased and flawed.
It is always wront to shoot innocent people. Doubely so if the shotters are trained government representatives, as in this case. I wasn't there myself but from what I can deduce the people killed had no ranged weapons (pistols, rifles, carbines), or atleast, none were found. So, they could have had rocks, sticks and canister bombs. This still does not give the government right to shoot and KILL them.
Someone also posted that violent demonstrators sometimes infiltrate the ranks of demonstrations and cause violent clashes. This is very true and an even bigger reason for the cops / soldiers not to fire. Because they will only hit innocent people, since that is one of the "black blocks" goals in such actions.
Which ever way you turn it, Bloody Sunday was a terrible thing, it could have been avoided. They should not have opened fire the way they did.
madmike
Jan 20 2002, 19:11
The army were fired apon first form the direction of some flats, the army returned fire to that area and shot people who they believe were shooting, some civilians were caught in the crosssfire.
The march was ilegal anyway so those demosraters had allready broken the law which is there to avoide this.
Also is there any solid evidence that says any inoccent people were shot? the only evidence is what people say and there are hundreds of different stories.
Aparantly some that were shot did have acid bombs, petrol bombs and one man was known to have been shot whilst aiming a pistol
Hilandor
Jan 20 2002, 21:02
For those interested a film/documentary is on Sunday Night at 10.00 pm on ITV called Bloody Sunday. (for those in UK )
brgnorway
Jan 20 2002, 23:17
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (madmike @ Jan. 20 2002,21:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
The army were fired apon first form the direction of some flats, the army returned fire to that area and shot people who they believe were shooting, some civilians were caught in the crosssfire.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
This really looks like an invented incident to excuse the action of the paras!
KingBeast
Jan 20 2002, 23:29
Well watched the program, it didnt portray the paras as monsters or anything, which was good. Though despite my knowledge on bloody sunday not being great, there was a part in the program where a man was waving a white flag and just standing still, then the paras shot him in the head after he had been standing for abotu 10 seconds. It didnt seem credible to me.
Did that happen in real life?
brgnorway
Jan 20 2002, 23:37
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ Jan. 21 2002,01:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well watched the program, it didnt portray the paras as monsters or anything, which was good. Though despite my knowledge on bloody sunday not being great, there was a part in the program where a man was waving a white flag and just standing still, then the paras shot him in the head after he had been standing for abotu 10 seconds. It didnt seem credible to me.
Did that happen in real life?[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Dont know!
KingBeast
Jan 20 2002, 23:40
That was Blatant spamming sir. If you dont know, then you need not comment in such a manner jsut to state that you do not know. http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
brgnorway
Jan 20 2002, 23:48
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (KingBeast @ Jan. 21 2002,01:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">That was Blatant spamming sir. If you dont know, then you need not comment in such a manner jsut to state that you do not know. http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
I wouldn't do that would I? http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Seriously - I dont know. It's one (claimed) incident among several. I'm sure there were many incidents we will never hear about, but I suppose there are incidents that are made up.
On the hole though, I do believe that the actions of the paras were terrible. Maybe they shouldn't have been there at all. Police usually cope better with peaceful demonstrations, although I wouldn't trust the RUC.
http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
ChickenHawk
Jan 21 2002, 01:27
Hey dangus maybe you want to tell us what they are all fighting about and if its pathetic or not?
SSH stated above:
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There were unarmed civilians found with bullet wounds in their backs. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
This is so true... If they were found with bullet holes in their back's that mean's that they were running away in terror when the para's opened fire. http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
brgnorway
Jan 21 2002, 04:00
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">SSH stated above:
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">There were unarmed civilians found with bullet wounds in their backs. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
This is so true... ***If they were found with bullet holes in their back's that mean's that they were running away in terror when the para's opened fire. http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
True it is! But some people obviously confuse patriotism with ignorance. I posted a thread earlier about a book on political violence in N.I. There are interviews with imprisoned IRA members which can only be described as pretty bad regarding the general behavior of the paras. On the other hand, the IRA members also tell stories about their own actions. Im afraid it is just as bad. I'll see if I can scan a few pages from the book and post it here later.
If you are interested you can find the book here:
http://www.amazon.com/exec....5723068 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0226240711/cyberhaven00/103-2163123-5723068)
John C Flett
Jan 21 2002, 07:16
Like most people in the UK I get a less than complete report of events in Ireland but the more I learn the more I'm horrified by things which my government has done. Yes the IRA has done many dreadful things and I have no sympathy for those who would use terror to achieve their goals. Sadly things like Bloody Sunday make me think that the British Government of the time also falls into that heading.
Firing on unarmed civilians is NEVER justifiable. Protesting abuse of civil right and injustice is ( or should be ) everybodies right. As for the issue of who started the violence and what was used against British troops I don't know. What I have heard is the paras came under repeated, sustained and heavy fire. As some people here have said fear and confusion can explain a lot. My problem is when I watch archive footage from the day I only see the protesters afraid and under fire. I see british soldiers standing in the open and talking. What kind of fire were they under at that time?
Most of us will never know the truth but as a number of people have pointed out this incident was a major catalyst for the current troubles and until some answers come out there are many people who will never be able to find peace. Its taken too long but I'm very glad these questions are being raised in a very public forum.
Krull SGC
Jan 21 2002, 07:25
I don't see the point in debating something that happened over 20 years ago, something nobody here had any control over, or no doubt even saw/experienced first hand, all we have is hind sight and second hand opinion, both are biased and both see perfectly.
To that end I offer this to the discussion:
"Bygones, what was, was, what is, is".
Lets get over it and hope that the people of N.Ireland can one day learn to live in peace with one another, with the help of the international community.
Failing that I say Britain declares N.I to be a fully free and independent nation, albeit one excluded from the international community (until such time as the UN deems them fit to rejoin the community) and let the people fight it out themselves (after preventing any current "political" group, and any other nation from taking part in the process, send them all for a nice trip on an iceflow or something, but I don't think they should be involved).
In my opinion this is the only way peace could ever occur, and if it fails napalm might be the only viable option, assuming that they haven't killed each other by then.
Well thats my thoughts on the problem, take what you want from them.
madmike
Jan 21 2002, 20:31
Sorry Im posting still on this topic but ive been reading as much about Bloody sunday and I have found a few things that I find odd.
Please reply if you can explian these http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I read up about someone who was shoot in the chest and survived. The bullet was deflected by the zip on his coat and I might be wrong but Im sure a 7.72 bullet would go striaght through him. I have pictures of dead argies from the falklands and even at a long range the 7.62 bullet does more damage.
It might be the the Paras were using different ammo but I cant find anything about that.
I also think that it could have been possible that the IRA opened up on civilians as well in all the confusion for more people to support them.
Also the pictures of those that were killed have very small wounds for close range shote with the SLR, just look at pics from the Falklands and youll see what I mean.
These just seem realy odd to me so I would love some feedback http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
KingBeast
Jan 21 2002, 20:45
Are you implying that perhaps it was all a rouse, and that troublemakers shot the civvies to try and put the blame onto the paras?
Interesting theory but hardly credible http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
madmike
Jan 21 2002, 21:28
No im not saying the trouble makers shot the civies, the trouble makers were the civies.
People said they had seen what they believed were army snipers on the rooftops of some flats.
The army claims no snipers were there, but the IRA has admitted that an IRA gunman was in a block of flats.
He was the one who fired at the British army with what troops say sounded like a tompson machine gun.
If I could find anything about the postmortum of thje dead it would let my mind rest because they would have been able to find out the caliber of the bullets and what gun it was fired from
[quote]Sorry Im posting still on this topic but ive been reading as much about Bloody sunday and I have found a few things that I find odd.
Please reply if you can explian these :)
I read up about someone who was shoot in the chest and survived. The bullet was deflected by the zi
madmike
Jan 21 2002, 21:40
well i take it you mess up on quoting, so what is your verdict on a zip deflecting a 7.62 round.
I would say it is impossible but im not 100% sure, im divided
Longinius
Jan 22 2002, 05:10
I am sure there was autopsies made to determine what killed them and how. If it had been anything other than 7.2 Brit ammo the government would surely have used that as an arguement, don't you think?
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