Problem with lods

[Chris Death]

Well, i'm working on these cement barriers - my first addon
since i decided to head over from mission making to addon making - but that's another story.

here's a link to the thread in a&d mods discussion so that
you can see what it is, i'm talking about:

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....4;st=15 (http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard311/ikonboard.cgi?act=Post;CODE=08;f=54;t=39749;p=558684;st=15)

I ran into a problem with my geo lod.

AI is shooting through them - i too tried to shoot through them, it can be done. Not everywhere but near the ends of
the geo lods.

Therefore i got a few questions, before messing around with it at maybe the wrong place;

a)
When using named properties (i got: map : wall - class : wall - dammage : no) for the geo lod - do i need to create a fire lod
too, or should this be covered by the geo lod?
I've read so many forum threads and tutes now, but i couldn't
get really exact answers for that yet (most ppl comming up
with: "forget it i already solved the problem")

:update - i've already tried to add a fire lod:
x: - 25 - y: 1 - z: 0.5
named properties:
LodNoShadow : 1

This didn't help not to let shots through

Maybe i should add here that:

I didn't binarize anything yet because of work in progress.
Could this be the reason that the lods with named properties
aren't doing their job right or is there still something else wrong.

b)
As i've read in brsseb's tutorial, the geo lod must not break through the basic shape - is this true or doesn't it matter, wether let's say the geo lod is not brighter but higher than
the basic shape?

c)
I got 5 meter blocks - 25 meter sections - 50 meter sections lined up close together - then i got the same 3 kinds with about 30 centimeters of space inbetween them.
(also i created for each 25 and 50 meter section a version
with one end piece).

Now AI always tries to run around them instead of walking through the 30 centimeter spaces - even if it's no problem for
players.

Do i need to make AI paths into these gaps, or would that only
lead to the fact that vehicles would then too try to drive through there?

OK these were my questions, i don't think they're too hard
to be answered, as i already mentioned some possible answers
http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/biggrin_o.gif

~S~ CD

[BraTTy]

I can help answer some:

Not binarizing (sp) isn't your problem,you are correct that you have a in progress addon and when you binarize you may encounter new problems,but it all should work well before binarize,if anything binarizing may mess it up.

The geo lod can be bigger than the actual model and often it needs to be.Making the geo lod structure larger will help things like:seeing thru your model because you might be able to walk into it some
Making it larger some may actually help alot

The fire lod will only give the AI a basis of where it can shoot,what parts are peneratrable (ie:windows,holes)
And what parts it can hit (put proxies there if they are able to get hit)
So I doubt thats your problem

I think it must be in your geometry lod,so some geometry hints:

Make it very simple,doesn't need to look like your actual model.
Make it like you are making a LEGO structure,with no parts intersecting and such,simple blocks
Do not texture anything there and do not highlight any vertices (shining)
Each part must be named (find components works well)
Each part must have some mass

maybe that helps some

[hardrock]

a) Generally fire geo LOD is covered by the geometry LOD, only make a fire geo if you have a very complex shape that isn't exactly covered by the geo LOD and that has to be more detailed in the fire geo.
For the geometry LOD as well as the fire geo applies: structures have to be convex. Also every single object has to be named with "Component01", where the number is ascending. To achieve this select "Structure">"Convexity">"Component Convex Hull", every single object will be named right and the hull will be a bit transformed to be convex. Now it should neither be possible to walk nor to shoot through (if the faces aren't inverted!)

b) In fact it doesn't matter if the geo LOD breaks through the basic model or not. The geo LOD only defines where collision is detected between the model itself and other models. Because of that geo LODs can (and should) be very basic, only with some boxes or simple shapes. Brsseb tells that in his tutorials because it doesn't look very good if you run against "air", means against a part of the geo LOD that isn't covered by a visible LOD.

c) Do you mean you place these parts in the editor or already in O2? You could try to make a "Path" LOD, shouldn't matter for cars as well as with forests, ever seen a car trying to drive into a forest in OFP? http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif

[BraTTy]

Now AI always tries to run around them instead of walking through the 30 centimeter spaces - even if it's no problem for
players.

Do i need to make AI paths into these gaps, or would that only
lead to the fact that vehicles would then too try to drive through there?
Path wouldn't hurt of course (dunno I mostly fancy vehicle addons)

But it is possible that the AI just can't see where to walk,did you make a "View Geometry" lod.

[Chris Death]

Thx for your quick replies Bratty and hardrock.

This helps alot of better understanding the whole lod thingy.

I can't try it out atm - need to get at least 5 hours of sleep
before goin to work http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/crazy_o.gif but i think i found a few things
in theory upon your hints.

a) not each lod part of the geo lods is named;
if you meant that.

Let me explain:

i made let's say 5 x 5 basic shapes
+ 5 x 5 geo lods for them
Now there's only Component01 here

Did you mean i would need Component01 - 05? - if so then
everything's clear for that part.

b)
A "view geo lod" i haven't made
path lods neither too

Would i need both then or would be one of these two enough?

wow - i can't await 'till i'm back from work 15 hours from now http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif

thx again for your explanations - this makes much more sense to me now.

~S~ CD

[Chris Death]

OK, i couldn't go to bed before having tried that once more  http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/biggrin_o.gif

You know what? I got it to work now
No more bullets going through the cement barriers http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif

ctrl-a + "Structure">"Convexity">"Component Convex Hull"
brought 5 times more components then i expected.

This must have happened during copy/paste of the objects.

I then got rid of all useless components (a whole lot of single
points) and did again the: "Structure">"Convexity">"Component Convex Hull" with
all remaining lod objects being selected.

Then the number of components did match with objects being
placed.

OK, AI ist still running around those, but that shouldn't be
a problem upon your advice anymore  http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif

I believe path's will do the job, since AI is able to shoot through the gaps which lets me think they can see through.

cheers guys

~S~ CD

[hardrock]

If you haven't got a view geometry LOD, OFP will use the geo LOD instead (as with fire geo LOD).

Your path LOD had to be very simple I think. Only a single face for each hole in your model, that had to face the top. It has not to cover the hole exactly, it can be smaller but should reach from one side to the other side so the AI knows that it can get through at this point.

Have a look at the original buildings and woods with ODOL explorer, I think that could help a lot. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif

[Status_cz]

zwad´s tutorial about LOD (http://o2tutor.zwadar.com/lods_en.html) ,make sure if you read it carefully. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif

[Chris Death]

Well, trying to add path lods, i ran into another problem;

First i should say: yes i have read zwadars tutorial, but
i couldn't really find much more info about path lods than
in brsseb's tute.

OK, now my problem:

I've made simple plane objects in path lod inbetween the
gaps of my barriers. Now when i order a man to move to
there, the game just crashes to desktop without a message.

I've also tried to name vertice pairs like: in1 - in2 - etc.
This didn't help either -> crash to desktop.

Then i tried another thing;

Instead of my test barriere, i've used one which has no path lods, but i added the AI paths from 3WX pack, to see if that
helps.

Well, AI started running through the gaps, but again in a certain moment the game crashed to desktop. This btw came even a bit unexpected for me http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wow_o.gif
This certain moment was exactly when one of the AI units was
passing a gap between the barriers.

Without using paths, i couldn't recreate the crash, so i'm quite
sure the ctd is due to the paths.

Is there any rule for paths to be followed (like: minimum size - don't touch geo-lod - exactly on the ground - naming of objects)?

P.S: for some reason i can't get ODOL explorer to work anymore - it did already, but now it doesn't anymore - therefore i couldn't have a look onto the paths in the forrests
like being mentioned here - but i think zwadar did show such
an example in his tutorial.

~S~ CD

[hardrock]

The only thing I could find out in the BIS forests:

It's equal if the faces point to the top or to the bottom.

Every point where the AI can get in/get out is named "in1", "in2", ascending. That means, only ONE point is named, not a pair. If you have a pair, name only one of the two points.

All faces have the property (Shift+E) "Keep height (fence)"

They all lay exactly and totally flat on the X-axis, not below, not above.

It seems that size doesnt matter, but the faces are rather thin.

So, that's all I could find out, hope it helps somehow http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif

[ag_smith]

Thanks for heads up, Chris. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif

What I can tell you, is that having a Paths LOD with in* points and no pos* points will certainly result in CTD. I know this one for sure, as this has been a bug with the older versions of my Industrial Pack. Adding pos points seems to solve the problem. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif

Re AI paths in F3wx_o1, that's really weired and I have no idea, what the cause might be. I will do some further investigations and let you know if I find anything. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/rock.gif

[Chris Death]

Thanks Agent Smith,

you saved my day http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/biggrin_o.gif

It doesn't crash to desktop anymore now, wen i order them
to move to "cement barrier posx" or if they're moving through
upon their own.

OK, AI seems still too stupid in most of the cases to use the
gaps (only one or two out of 11 uses the paths), but i think
this is a general ofp bug which i noticed a long time ago:

Only one member of a group will enter any position of a house
if specified in the waypoints of a group - other members will
still wait outside a house (or whatever object).

When ordering them manually, i can send them each to any position of my choice without problems - everyone will go to
where he was sent.

One last thing i need to figure out now: how to make the
barriers match to the ground surface (like placing them on
slopes).

But i'm sure i've already read somewhere about this, and that
it's easy to fix - will go searching now http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif

~S~ CD

[hardrock]

I _think_ this can be done with Shift+E "Keep height (fence)"

[Chris Death]

OK, i found this in another thread too, but thanks anyway hardrock.

What i couldn't find is:

What do i need to select to use shift+e "keep height fence"?

Only the basic shape, only geo lod, or do i need to do this
for each part seperately?

I could imagine that it needs to be done seperately for each
part i want to get this ability onto, but i'm not really sure
about it.

~S~ CD

[Chris Death]

btw - forgot to say that:

I've already solved that issue with "keep height fence".

I did it for the basic shape and for the geo lod and everything's fine now http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif

One minor thing i noticed, where i'm not sure if this is really
right, but it's nothing to worry too much about:

AI is running through the geo lod, when using the paths, even
if the path does not lead through the geo lod, or through the
basic shape. That doesn't look perfect, but i think that's nothing serious, as i noticed the same thing sometimes with
original BIS houses.

Thanks for all your help here guys

~S~ CD

[Colonel_Klink]

Hi Chris. Good on you for taking the plunge into addon making. I can't add anymore than what the others have offered, but one thing I can say is that some time a go somebody gave the 'true' meaning of AI : Anally Inspired http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif

I've scratched my head so much now a bald spot is appearing amongst my thin greying hair, in trying to get AI to follow paths correctly and go through doorways and not walls. In the end I decided well if thats the way they wanna go who am i to stop 'em. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif Not much help I know. Anyway keep up the good work..

[Chris Death]

Thx Col.Klink,

i mean this still helps alot, as you confirmed what i already
suspected to be fact. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/smile_o.gif

Another funny thing i noticed when testing my barriers:

I've placed some to block a road, and sent an AI driven
jeep with a waypoint along there. Guess what: he crashed
with highspeed into the barrier with the result in having to
continue on foot because the jeep couldn't move a centimeter
anymore.

Well this showed me some kind'a efficiency with my barriers. http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/tounge_o.gif

I'm gonna put some different textures onto the barriers now,
so that they won't look equal each, and then they're off to
block the comunitie's roads or streets.

I'm already lookin forward to produce more complex stuff
than these barriers, and i feel this project has been a great
start to learn basic lod stuff etc.

Thx again for everyones help

~S~ CD

[Schoeler]

a) Generally fire geo LOD is covered by the geometry LOD, only make a fire geo if you have a very complex shape that isn't exactly covered by the geo LOD and that has to be more detailed in the fire geo.
For the geometry LOD as well as the fire geo applies: structures have to be convex. Also every single object has to be named with "Component01", where the number is ascending. To achieve this select "Structure">"Convexity">"Component Convex Hull", every single object will be named right and the hull will be a bit transformed to be convex. Now it should neither be possible to walk nor to shoot through (if the faces aren't inverted!)

b) In fact it doesn't matter if the geo LOD breaks through the basic model or not. The geo LOD only defines where collision is detected between the model itself and other models. Because of that geo LODs can (and should) be very basic, only with some boxes or simple shapes. Brsseb tells that in his tutorials because it doesn't look very good if you run against "air", means against a part of the geo LOD that isn't covered by a visible LOD.

c) Do you mean you place these parts in the editor or already in O2? You could try to make a "Path" LOD, shouldn't matter for cars as well as with forests, ever seen a car trying to drive into a forest in OFP?  http://forums.bistudio.com/oldsmileys/wink_o.gif
Did I mention that you rock?

Your advice solved a problem that had me pulling my hair out.

Thanks!