multiprocessor and dedicated server

[Skal]

hi people hi,

I'm running 2 dedicated servers, and was planning to buy a third, eventually bi-Athlon XP-MP, but I've just tried on a "little" bi-PIII and it seems the second processor is not used ... quite weird, as OFP seems to be full multi-thread, I was thinking it could take advantage of a second CPU .... anybody have informations about that http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

C U :cool:

[Suma]

OFP is not optimized to be able to use dual CPU systems. I am not sure what is your sentence "as OFP seems to be full multi-thread" based upon.

[Mister Frag]

I have a multi-processor system myself, and the threads are distributed across all processors. That is in fact the default behavior for any process under Windows 2000 / XP Professional -- unless you fiddle with the Processor Affinity Masks, the scheduler is free to assign the threads to any processor that it wants, and even re-assign them as needed.

The programmer can set the PAM himself/herself, or you can take matters into your own hand (but not really fine-tune things) by running the IMAGECFG utility that comes with the DDK and the NT 4.0 Option Pack -- it lets you alter the image that is read by the loader so that you can restrict the process to specific processors, or any one single processor.

[Ender]

Suma:

I think he maybe used TaskInfo or a similar program and saw all the threads the game is utilizing.

Mr. Frag:

Just because it's multi-threaded doesn't mean it will increase performance. I've done a lot of multi-threaded programming, and I own a dual system so I know what I'm doing (mostly http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif and if something is not optimized for a multi-processor system, it generally doesn't do much for you.

However, look at it this way: If you have two processors and run a game, the game will (hopefully) run on the processor with the most resources available, leaving things like drivers and other system level resources to be run by the other CPU. This of course will give you a performance increase.

However, like I said, multiple threads don't always mean a faster application. You can get into situations where one thread is waiting for another to complete before it continues execution. This causes one thread to hang for a bit, essentially reducing your application to a single-threaded app. A lot of other problems occur, like contentions when two threads are accessing the same RAM locations for extended periods and not letting other threads access it.

Most likely, the threads in OFP are light weight and probably something to do with UI, maybe network code and a few other things, nothing that will give you a huge boost on a multi-processor system.

[WisdoM]

OFP doesn't utilize the two processors http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif theres a program at www.techtv.com that you can run in the background and it will tell you wether or not both processors are being used. And if you run it while playing OFP you will see it does not http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[ScreamingWithNoSound]

Wisdom you are obviously not familiar with Win2K. W2K's task monitor can show usage for each CPU independently.

I'm in a ranty mood, so I'm gonna dumb down what Ender said (cause I like to see my own typing, K?)

Modern games programming for Windows, is, by it's very nature, multi-threaded. As most PCs that play games are going to have 1 CPU, then those threads need to be arranged and optimised for 1 CPU, this, sometimes, can cause problems when you try to run on 2... is it Q3, or UT that runs like a dog on 2 CPU, unless activate the 2 CPU architecture/change the *.exe?

[ScreamingWithNoSound]

I'm a wannabe, can I have a job? LOL http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[ScreamingWithNoSound]

I'm stupid, Wisdom, I appologise.

[Mister Frag]

Ender, I write multi-threaded network code for a living, so I'm not exactly ignorant of the issues. I currently write code to handle credit card and electronic check transactions on SMP systems. Prior to this, I spent the better part of the last decade as a Principal Software Engineer in Symantec's Peter Norton Group and in Hewlett-Packard's OpenView division. In fact, I can't remember the last time I wrote a single-threaded application.

The point is that a multi-threaded application will always run faster on an SMP system, provided there are no thread synchronization issues where one blocks the other through a critical section, mutex, or another type of synchronization object.

If you have two threads and a single processor, they are scheduled according to the process' base priority class and the invididual threads priority. If both have the same priority, they are allocated the same CPU quanta, and scheduled to execute alternatingly. Even though there are multiple threads on one CPU, the CPU can't really execute multiple threads at the same time.

If you have more than one CPU however, each thread can execute independently on a separate CPU, and the only time there will be any waiting is when shared resources need to be accessed.

So yes, even if a multi-threaded program hasn't been specifically designed to run on a system with multiple processors, it will execute in less time on such a system.

[Mister Frag]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from ScreamingWithNoSound on 5:46 am on Dec. 5, 2001
<Snip>
Modern games programming for Windows, is, by it's very nature, multi-threaded. As most PCs that play games are going to have 1 CPU, then those threads need to be arranged and optimised for 1 CPU, this, sometimes, can cause problems when you try to run on 2... is it Q3, or UT that runs like a dog on 2 CPU, unless activate the 2 CPU architecture/change the *.exe?
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

One has to try very hard to get the poor results that Quake shows on SMP systems. The problem isn't with multi-threaded programming in general, but extremely poor software design and faulty thread synchronization on the part of the Quake developers -- Quake has "my first multi-threaded application" written all over it.

I can't count the number of times I've seen examples of this, such as using global variables instead of events to synchronize threads...

[Mister Frag]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from WisdoM on 5:01 am on Dec. 5, 2001
OFP doesn't utilize the two processors http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif theres a program at www.techtv.com that you can run in the background and it will tell you wether or not both processors are being used. And if you run it while playing OFP you will see it does not http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

The CPUs in a SMP system may not both run at the same utilization level, but OFP does use multiple threads, and they will execute on more than one processor. That means that it does run faster than it would on a single CPU.

[tlx]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Mister Frag on 11:19 pm on Dec. 4, 2001
Ender, I write multi-threaded network code for a living, so I'm not exactly ignorant of the issues.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Frag, nice profession. Maybe you could help BIS in redesign of the "network code" http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

(Edited by tlx at 12:37 am on Dec. 5, 2001)

[Sergeant Rock]

Mister Frag either knows his stuff, or he's a #### of a bulls**t artist! He's got me convinced!

[tlx]

My post was not meant to make _fun_ of Mr. Frag. But the game could really need some tweak by a "network code specialist".

(Edited by tlx at 12:49 am on Dec. 5, 2001)

[Suma]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">The point is that a multi-threaded application will always run faster on an SMP system, provided there are no thread synchronization issues where one blocks the other through a critical section, mutex, or another type of synchronization object.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
Unfortunatelly OFP is not multithreaded by design. Almost all threades you can when attempting to debug it are helper threads that are created by DirectPlay or DirectSound.

[Kegetys]

At least Windows 2000 allows you to change a process to run into another processor from the Task Manager... If you run two dediservers on the same system, you could change the other one to the second CPU from there? Or run the dediserver on other and the game on the other...

[Suma]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Kegetys on 2:47 pm on Dec. 5, 2001
At least Windows 2000 allows you to change a process to run into another processor from the Task Manager... If you run two dediservers on the same system, you could change the other one to the second CPU from there? Or run the dediserver on other and the game on the other...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
This should be working that way without any user intervention - Win2000 process/thread sheduler should do this normally when it makes sense (like when one CPU is fully loaded).

[WisdoM]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Mister Frag on 4:34 pm on Dec. 4, 2001
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from WisdoM on 5:01 am on Dec. 5, 2001
OFP doesn't utilize the two processors http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif theres a program at www.techtv.com that you can run in the background and it will tell you wether or not both processors are being used. And if you run it while playing OFP you will see it does not http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

The CPUs in a SMP system may not both run at the same utilization level, but OFP does use multiple threads, and they will execute on more than one processor. That means that it does run faster than it would on a single CPU.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Oh really? it would appear a desiginer SUMA says you're wrong, go ahead, tell him hes lying.

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from WisdoM on 4:28 pm on Dec. 5, 2001
Oh really? it would appear a desiginer SUMA says you're wrong, go ahead, tell him hes lying.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

It WILL run faster.  SUMA simply said OFP wasn't OPTIMIZED for SMP.  Anything will run faster with multiple processors because the load of the OS at the very minimum will be spread across multiple processors (assuming the kernel supports SMP).  This leaves more resources for other programs, even non-SMP programs.

[Mister Frag]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Suma on 10:59 pm on Dec. 5, 2001
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Kegetys on 2:47 pm on Dec. 5, 2001
At least Windows 2000 allows you to change a process to run into another processor from the Task Manager... If you run two dediservers on the same system, you could change the other one to the second CPU from there? Or run the dediserver on other and the game on the other...[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
This should be working that way without any user intervention - Win2000 process/thread sheduler should do this normally when it makes sense (like when one CPU is fully loaded).
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I agree, I would not force the dedicated server or any other process to execute on a specific processor, since that defeats the automatic load-balancing that the scheduler performs on an SMP system.

That being said, I have changed the Processor Affinity of some processes (like Rogue Spear/Urban Operations) on my system in the past. This was due to buggy SoundBlaster drivers, and I found that that running the drivers and the game on the same processor cured the audio problems I was experiencing.

[Mister Frag]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from WisdoM on 11:28 pm on Dec. 5, 2001
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Mister Frag on 4:34 pm on Dec. 4, 2001
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from WisdoM on 5:01 am on Dec. 5, 2001
OFP doesn't utilize the two processors http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif theres a program at www.techtv.com that you can run in the background and it will tell you wether or not both processors are being used. And if you run it while playing OFP you will see it does not http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

The CPUs in a SMP system may not both run at the same utilization level, but OFP does use multiple threads, and they will execute on more than one processor. That means that it does run faster than it would on a single CPU.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Oh really? it would appear a desiginer SUMA says you're wrong, go ahead, tell him hes lying.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

WisdoM, please re-read the messages in the thread, nobody said that there aren't multiple threads, or that they aren't running on any and all available processors.

Any thread that can be off-loaded to a less busy CPU will improve performance. The scheduler in the OS will try to maximize performance of the system by dynamically allocating the threads in an application to the CPU with the lowest utilization.

[Skal]

ouch, I've forgotten to come back and see the answer to my question, and now, ouch !! http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

in fact Suma gave me the answer: even if there are multiple threads in the game, the game itself is not fully multihtreaded, and won't gain a lot beeing run on a bi-pro...

thanx for the answers guys

[MitchSchaft]

We need to get this cleared up.