Take On Helicopters Beta Patch 89299

[DnA]

Revision 89299 uploaded (http://takeonthegame.com/download/beta-patches/)

Changelog:
Ground Effect strength increased slightly (was hardly noticeable)
Auto-hover controller strength modified
Friction and ground contact reduced for Light

[_michal]

Great! I was flying 88888 yesterday, and I've noticed too weak ground effect. I'll try this patch later in the evening.

[Sickboy]

We want Coffee, we want Coffee! ;-)

(for those wondering what this spam is, I of course mean Java! :D)

[DnA]

We want Coffee, we want Coffee! ;-)

We want coffee as well, but the engineer manufacturing the coffee maker has discovered a clogged water supply. He hopes to have it resolved soon, so we can ship testing units to all of you ;)

[Derbysieger]

I quite like the groundeffect. It's noticable but at the same time subtle. I can't tell wether it's realistic or not - that's something rl pilots have to do.
However, the issue with torque effects stays the same. I really want torque induced yaw to be more noticable. Is there a chance for a new difficulty option or something along those lines so kb&m players can play TOH on expert while all the players who like an authentic experience can choose to play it on a 'realistic' setting or something similar?

[OMAC]

kb/mouse, Expert, no autohover:

Light: Best I've ever seen it. Excellent all around! :)

Medium: Much better than 88888, but have changes in changelog been applied to medium? Perhaps ground effect could be increased slightly (bigger rotors and more powerful engines than light), and friction + ground contact reduced? It feels like a brick on landing. Sometimes, but much more rarely, the medium can lose control at low speeds and go into an unstoppable death rightward spin (:j: :eek2:), as in previous betas.

In Free Flight, the medium always starts flight at a very low altitude, sometimes in contact with ground (or overpasses), leading to instacrash. Especially dangerous when starting in mountainous terrain.

Sensitivity to input from analog collective raise (ACR) key is INTENSE, much more so than with light. Is that intended? Perhaps this is the way it should be with stronger/multiple engines, I don't know. Tapping that key on landing to slow descent is very dangerous now; only Q/Z can be used safely in that situation, but heli is less responsive to them. I'm used to pressing left pedal along with analog collective raise since 1.03, but now too much bad stuff happens when using ACR key while landing for it to be used. On takeoff, ACR+left pedal are fine, but must be very, very lightly used. One would think that, for a heli significantly heavier than the light, that the ACR key would be less sensitive than with the light heli, but perhaps that is an erroneous assumption.

Heavy: Excellent, as before. But heli tends to feel lighter than even the light heli, as controls are very sensitive to input. But that's not a problem, and has been the case for a while.

More testing later....

Overall, excellent beta! :cool:

------------------------------

AI following in ToH: This is most likely not related to the betas. But if an AI-flown military heli is grouped with and subordinate to a human-flown military heli, the AI-flown heli has EXTREME difficulty following the commanding heli in formation, especially in combat situations and in mountainous terrain. The AI-flown heli gets lost continuously, which severely impacts gameplay. Even in flat South Asia terrain under clear skies when no opfor are present, the AI heli will get lost ("Away") within 20 seconds. I have a simple test mission if it will help. Seems like the AI pilots should have much better vision and following ability.

------------------------------

"Realistic/Authentic" flight models for controller users: Is it possible for intense torque-induced yaw requiring continuous pedal input to be applied if a controller is detected, and the normal FMs used when only kb/mouse are detected?

[Thromp]

Like the progress , Light should no longer need any tweak , i love it
well apart from its stoned :)

small materail file bug in arch of Skids , it is stone material not plastic or whichever it should be.
not connvinced about the Landcontact when approaching a roadway either to be honest but will check further.

G2ohZNdFHn4

[Derbysieger]

I just beat Gold in one of the time trials or at least I thought I did. Isn't it enough to match the required time?
http://www.abload.de/thumb/takeonh2012-02-1201-3y2fzf.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=takeonh2012-02-1201-3y2fzf.jpg)

€: Seems like you have to beat the time:
http://www.abload.de/thumb/takeonh2012-02-1323-3xa618.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=takeonh2012-02-1323-3xa618.jpg)

€²: Now I'm really confused:
http://www.abload.de/thumb/takeonh2012-02-1400-0atuir.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=takeonh2012-02-1400-0atuir.jpg)

[DnA]

You do need to beat it. The system uses milliseconds, but it does not display them. This has already been corrected for the next patch :)

[RoyaltyinExile]

I just beat Gold [...] Isn't it enough to match the required time?


One does not simply beat gold. Your medals and false pride will be stripped from you! :weakest:

Also, what DnA said ^^ - I even saw him playing them yesterday, so he's not just 'frontin' :)

Best,
RiE

[Derbysieger]

Oh no, what have I done?! :D

€: I don't know if it's related to flight model changes, but I can easily beat gold times on many of the time trials. Maybe they need a change aswell. Good example is Cool Runnings. I love the course. It offers a nice challenge (slow first half, fast second half) but I feel like the time for gold needs a slight change. I just beat gold time by 12 seconds and that wasn't a perfect run:

http://www.abload.de/thumb/takeonh2012-02-1417-5ydxtr.jpg (http://www.abload.de/image.php?img=takeonh2012-02-1417-5ydxtr.jpg)

[OMAC]

I'm finding it difficult to reach and maintain the yellow/red zone speeds necessary to get gold on the time trials. With 1.01 and 1.02, I raised collective all the way, and did forward manual trim set to get to the dangerous speeds necessary for gold. Now, I almost never reach even yellow zone speeds on reasonably flat courses. Reaching sick speeds is not a problem when you have lots of altitude to lose and fly downwards, but on flatter courses (like Crane Blame) it's very tough. My best time is 2:03 (Silver) after many tries, and there is nothing I know of to try to get faster speeds. ??? (kb/mouse, expert)

[Derbysieger]

Crane Blame is a tough one. It's pretty good as it is. I think Cool Runnings is the only one where I can beat gold time by 10+ seconds. I never fly insanely high speeds. ~120knots max should be enough on most Time Trials (exception are the long ones but I think they're not as interesting). You don't want to fly too fast. The important thing is to get the timings right so you don't loose too much speed in turns. I can imagine that beating gold times with kb&m is especially difficult because you don't have the necessary control over your collective&pedals. There are two points where you need very precise control over your collective on Crane Blame. The first is right after CP 3 (drop collective once you cleared the ridge and raise it as soon as you are back on track. Screw this up and you don't need to bother with the rest of the course) and the other one is between CP 6 & 7. You want to "fall" through CP 7, this can be a bit tricky.

On courses like Cool Runnings precise control over both, collective and pedals, is VERY important to time the slides through those tight turns right (turn your heli with pedals to fly sideways, bank left/right, carefully apply a little aft cyclic and control the collective all at the same time so you don't gain too much altitude but still loose enough speed to stay on track)
When you hit the timings right in the first part you can screw up the second (easier) part of the course and still beat gold as I demonstrated here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG_c_fR69qA (Note the small screwup before CP 4 and the big screwup right after CP 4 which effected all of the following timings).

[OMAC]

When I beat gold on Dances With Trees,

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?127150-Dances-With-Trees&highlight=dances+trees

the only way to do it was to fly at yellow zone speeds on the straight segments. Now I'm not sure if reaching those speeds around 250 km/h is possible on flat courses with kb/mouse. Not losing speed on turns is equally vital, though, as you wrote.

On Crane Blame, even if I chopped off 5 seconds in the turn after CP 3 next to the ridge (an extraordinarily difficult feat), I've still got 9 seconds to make up, and that looks to be very tough without high speed between CPs. It is very difficult for me to get over 225 km/h in this course.

But maybe I'm just overlooking something, and will keep trying.

[Derbysieger]

After little more flying I can safely say that Cool Runnings is the only TT where I can easily beat gold time by a mile. On all the others it's a really nice challenge to beat gold.

@<hidden>: 225km/h is roughly 120knots. You shouldn't fly much faster otherwise you would be going way too fast into turns. On my gold run on Crane Blame I don't think I exceeded 125knots except on the way towards the last CP. On most TTs timing the turns is way more important than max speed. Always keep that in mind. Topspeeds faster than 125knots only really matter on the long trials on South Asia (The Elder Run, Wild Wild East). On The Elder Run I flew nearly 140knots (260km/h) in some parts.

[OMAC]

Topspeeds faster than 125knots only really matter on the long trials on South Asia (The Elder Run, Wild Wild East).

Yes, and with Dances with Trees, as I wrote.

[Derbysieger]

I will upload more videos of time trials soon. Maybe you can learn something, even though I fly with Community Patch 3 ;)
I just finished Dances with Trees and I will record more. I think a joystick is a huge advantage when you fly TTs

[Slapstick]

We want coffee as well, but the engineer manufacturing the coffee maker has discovered a clogged water supply. He hopes to have it resolved soon, so we can ship testing units to all of you ;)
Does that mean it is still planned for inclusion in this patch? Or has Java been moved to the "next patch" again?

[OMAC]

I'm finding it difficult to reach and maintain the yellow/red zone speeds necessary to get gold on the time trials. With 1.01 and 1.02, I raised collective all the way, and did forward manual trim set to get to the dangerous speeds necessary for gold. Now, I almost never reach even yellow zone speeds on reasonably flat courses. Reaching sick speeds is not a problem when you have lots of altitude to lose and fly downwards, but on flatter courses (like Crane Blame) it's very tough. My best time is 2:03 (Silver) after many tries, and there is nothing I know of to try to get faster speeds. ??? (kb/mouse, expert)

I would be very interested to know if the BIS Q/A guy who got gold on all Trials with a controller is also able to do so with kb/mouse, at least for Crane Blame. I'm down to 2:00, but that last 11 seconds to beat gold will be FN brutal.

But still, the light heli is so much more fun to fly for me than in 1.03, it is ridiculous.

[EinsteinEP]

Howdy folks! FNG here.

When I activate the "beta" item in the expansions menu item, I get a CTD on startup. Am I not supposed to be doing that?

[.kju [PvPscene]]

You need to use the "launch beta" link created in your TKOH game folder or start menu.

[Derbysieger]

I just took the med helicopter for a spin and to be honest there isn't really anything positive to say about how the FM develops. Torque induced yaw is practically non-existent... This needs to change. Be it a new difficulty setting or an added option to enable/disable torque effects.

The light heli with this Beta and CP 3 is very enjoyable to fly. 1.03 was a big improvement but the latest betas are steps back regarding FM changes. I understand that this is to enable kb&m on expert but for everyone who likes an authentic flight experience in a helicopter this is disappointing. I don't have the time to fiddle with the flightmodel myself and I'm certainly not the right person to do so (not a pilot here). Plus, I don't think it is the community's job to provide an authentic FM.

So for the love of God, do something before you push out the next official patch/TOH:Hinds. Please!:pray:

[Armored_Sheep]

I just took the med helicopter for a spin and to be honest there isn't really anything positive to say about how the FM develops. Torque induced yaw is practically non-existent...
I cannot reproduce this. If I place flying Medium Heli in editor and play on hightest difficulty, I MUST use pedals to compensate, otherwise the helicopter will spinn quickly out of control. I have default linear sensitivity on pedals controler. In steady hover I use aprox 15% of left pedal pressure. The amount of required pedal presure also varies on actual colective settings and forward speed (fuselage and stabilizers aerodynamics are simulated too). Maybe your problem is that you expect that you will be kicking 30-50% percent of pedals just because of torque?

[Serclaes]

I can confirm there is torque induced yaw when you have a little weight and high density altitude. But torque induced yaw won't happen in forward flight a lot. Because the tail rotor gains effectiveness with ETL and the fuselage stabilizes.

for example: use "this setCustomWeightRTD 500;" in the init of a light chopper and see how much torque induced yaw you get. I think at 600 you won't even be able to do a hover out of ground effect.

btw: in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG_c_fR69qA&feature=player_embedded) of yours you have a lot yawing and hence skidding when you pull full collective. Too bad the turn indicator isn't functional.

All in all I don't really get what you mean Derbysieger...

[DnA]

All in all I don't really get what you mean Derbysieger...
Could this be because of the community patch 3 you're using according to your awesome TT videos Derbysieger? The beta patch is running on RTD4, meaning the XMLs modified based on older versions may not be compatible?

[Derbysieger]

I cannot reproduce this. If I place flying Medium Heli in editor and play on hightest difficulty, I MUST use pedals to compensate, otherwise the helicopter will spinn quickly out of control. I have default linear sensitivity on pedals controler. In steady hover I use aprox 15% of left pedal pressure. The amount of required pedal presure also varies on actual colective settings and forward speed (fuselage and stabilizers aerodynamics are simulated too). Maybe your problem is that you expect that you will be kicking 30-50% percent of pedals just because of torque?

I'm sorry about this post. ;) It's bollocks. I will avoid that in future.

Still I'm not entirely happy with it.
I don't know ... 15% in a hover seems very low. I was doing slingload operations before I posted and it required only very little input. When I set the weight of the med heli higher it feels more how I would expect it to be and is actually pretty good. In all the videos I watched the pilots seem to apply a lot more pressure in a hover than 15%. Torque induced yaw like it is in the light heli in 1.03 seems pretty good to me.


I can confirm there is torque induced yaw when you have a little weight and high density altitude. But torque induced yaw won't happen in forward flight a lot. Because the tail rotor gains effectiveness with ETL and the fuselage stabilizes.

for example: use "this setCustomWeightRTD 500;" in the init of a light chopper and see how much torque induced yaw you get. I think at 600 you won't even be able to do a hover out of ground effect.

btw: in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WG_c_fR69qA&feature=player_embedded) of yours you have a lot yawing and hence skidding when you pull full collective. Too bad the turn indicator isn't functional.

All in all I don't really get what you mean Derbysieger...

Yes there is torque induced yaw, it's just that I think it should be a little more noticable.
I'm flying with community patch 3 in that video and I screwed up. That's why you see this. I screwed up around CP 4. After that I struggled a little bit and missed the timings for the following CPs. You don't usually need pedals after CP 5 but I made mistakes and tried to save my run (in my other videos you can sometimes see accidental pedal input too because I still have no pedals). I'm now at 1:05min for Cool Runnings.

Btw hover out of ground effect in the light Heli with weight set to 600 is no problem in this beta (collective raised ~70-80%) but it's tricky to maintain (heli is a bit twitchy with so much weight).
With a little added weight (passengers, cargo or weight set in editor) it is a lot better, but still. The AH6 feels a little light considering all the ammo it carries.

btw, with Community Patch 3 and 1.03 it's the opposite. You almost always have to apply left pedal, even in a fast forward flight which is really weird^^

Again, sorry I exaggerated so much.

€dit:


Could this be because of the community patch 3 you're using according to your awesome TT videos Derbysieger? The beta patch is running on RTD4, meaning the XMLs modified based on older versions may not be compatible?

mhhh. I don't know ... I will do some runs without.

[Dwarden]

i wonder that too, i hope You testing these new betas w/o any FDM mods

[Derbysieger]

i wonder that too, i hope You testing these new betas w/o any FDM mods


I always remove the FDM mods when I load betas for testing ;)

I take back most of my criticism. Only I still think torque induced yaw should be a little more distinct during hover.

[Serclaes]

I'm sorry about this post. ;) It's bollocks. I will avoid that in future.
Btw hover out of ground effect in the light Heli with weight set to 600 is no problem in this beta (collective raised ~70-80%) but it's tricky to maintain (heli is a bit twitchy with so much weight).
With a little added weight (passengers, cargo or weight set in editor) it is a lot better, but still. The AH6 feels a little light considering all the ammo it carries.

That's because the AH6s guns and ammo do not seem to have been added to the weight. As long as I didn't miss another getter that is :P
That'ld be 2xM134, the FFAR launcher, the mount, 4000rds 762 NATO, 14 Hydras.

About the torque: Try setting the weather to the sunniest possible in summer and like 1300 or 1400 hrs. That should change the air density a fair bit :)

[Derbysieger]

Ok now it's almost impossible. I still managed a hover for about 15s (collective almost fully raised, almost 100% left pedal) but then the heli started to make worrying noises xD

About the time trial Cool Runnings:
Maybe you can tweak the time a little? I constantly stay below 1:10min. The other time trials are harder to beat. I'm currently flying Ursa Major and it is a real pain in the a**. Good job on that one! I just beat silver^^

[Serclaes]

You could try a running take off: make it light on the skids and push the cyclic slowly forward, slowly gain speed until ETL then take off :)

Oh about that: trying a running take off is a little strange because the chopper would skid on the front part of the skid (you know the bent part). I'm not sure it's meant to do that, meaning there is something strange happening with the flight model. Maybe the center of mass is too far ahead, or the skids don't skid lightly enough?



Just did a little googling for the AH-6:
Heres the weights I could come up with:
Hydra Pod: ~15.97 Kg
M134: 29.98 Kg
FFAR Rocket: 6.2 Kg
762 NATO round: ~10.5g

As for the mount: I have no idea. I just guessed it to 30 Kg.

[Derbysieger]

interesting.

Something I just noticed: Cars glow (not only headlights, the entire car) when you use nightvision goggles. I don't really care if that can or will be fixed. Just wanted to let you know.

See this video:
o9vpF3Oy1Vk