This is what happens when your Gfx card doesn't meet requirements. [Archive]

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nightsta1ker

Oct 28 2011, 23:31

After 5 or so min of gameplay the program crashes to windows.

But even with the 5 minutes I am getting, I am extremely disappointed in just about all aspects of the game, from the abyssimal flight dynamics to the poor graphics running at a horrible rate on my computer (I7 2600 with NVidia GT 530). Seriously, the community preview was better than this garbage. What is going on here?

Can I get my money back? Please? Please?

I would rather fly helos in ArmA and ArmA 2 than this.

Seriously, how can you claim realism? I am a real helicopter pilot with a full helicopter simulator setup (full pedals, collective and cyclic) and I can't fly the stupid thing in expert mode. The control lag makes it almost uncontrollable. Not realistic to a real helicopter AT ALL. And before anyone harps at me about settings, I have messed with all the null zones and sensitivities trying to get it right. And just when I start to really try to get into it, even from a pure gaming perspective, the graphics are so poor, and it eats so much performance, that I cannot enjoy it anyway. And then, on top of that, it keeps crashing to windows.

Seriously disappointed here guys. How did a project with so much promise fall so short?? I really went to bat for BIS early on because I beleived that you would and could pull this off. I thought you would listen to the real pilots and make it at least passably realistic. It seriously looks like you took the ArmA platform and changed it into a strictly helicopter game. No changes to the core elements to make it more flight friendly at all. I really don't know what BIS was shooting for at this point, but this is not what was portrayed to me and many others during the development.

Sincerely, No longer a fan,

Scott Swanberg

Dwarden

Oct 28 2011, 23:49

ok, re: performance problems...

1.what settings?
what driver build, OS?
* if You can provide crashdumps that would be great too

re control problems:

2 .
what issues with inability set null zones and sensitivity ?
what controllers/devices used?

3.
re FDM complains

the Flight Model used in Take On Helicopters is N times complex
and better in simulation than the one used in ARMA 2 / ARMA 2: OA

wanna explain what's missing / not right ?

what FDM abilities You expect to be there or improved
(don't fear to point at some FDM on internet saying THIS one is better/best)

something i can 'catch' and understood instead of 'it's crap' w/o details

[DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

Oct 29 2011, 00:17

Dude! chill, breathe!

LOL GT530 ? that card ranks even with a 7900, which was top of the line, what, 5 years ago? Less than an 8800GT which is the recommended minimum
the GT530 is 2 levels below the 8800GT, and 8 levels below my gtx275!

that is some of your performance problem and control lag right there.
whoever suggested to pair a brand new CPU with a shitty gfx card is to blame for your crashes, not BIS !

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/best-graphics-card-gaming-performance,3042-7.html

Take on Helicopter Minimum System Requirements
OS: Windows XP
CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo @<hidden> 2.4 Ghz / AMD Athlon 64 X2 5000+
RAM: 2 Gb
HDD: 20 Gb hard disk space free
GFX: nVidia GeForce 8800 GT / ATI Radeon HD 4850
Audio: DirectX Compatible
DX: 9.0c
Other: Keyboard, Mouse

Take on Helicopter Recommended System Requirements
OS: Windows Vista/7
CPU: Intel Core 2 Duo @<hidden> 3.0 GHz / AMD Athlon 64 X2 6000+
RAM: 4 Gb
GFX: nVidia GeForce 9800 GT / ATI Radeon HD 5850

sincerely hoping you reconsider, and APOLOGIZE
Derek Grimm

Derbysieger

Oct 29 2011, 00:46

-Ziggy-;2046265']Dude! chill, breathe!

LOL GT530 ? that card ranks even with a 7900, which was top of the line, what, 5 years ago? Less than an 8800GT which is the recommended minimum
the GT530 is 2 levels below the 8800GT, and 8 levels below my gtx275!

that is some of your performance problem and control lag right there.
whoever suggested to pair a brand new CPU with a shitty gfx card is to blame for your crashes, not BIS !

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/best-graphics-card-gaming-performance,3042-7.html

sincerely hoping you reconsider, and APOLOGIZE
Derek Grimm
+1

I have no input lag at all. When I move my joystick the heli reacts instantly even to the slightest input. And I'm able to control it (sort of) on expert with only a simple joystick.
Very low framerates can cause massive input lag though and for that is not BIS to blame but most likely your graphicscard. A GT 530, seriously?
I would recommend you to buy at least a GTX460 or similar.

Also what Dwarden said.

Kind regards ;)

dale0404

Oct 29 2011, 01:08

Agree totally but give the man a break, apart from his GPU issue let us see if he can provide some constructive input...

Panther353

Oct 29 2011, 01:29

I can say this, I find the controls react differently in missions than they do in free flight. My control inputs in free flight seem very smooth. I have no issue hold a hover, taking off or land smoothly. In the training missions though I seem to be all over the place.

twisted

Oct 29 2011, 01:53

not good to hear that you get crashes. it wont help to hear that i haven't suffered a single one, but as pointed out its probably that your video card isnt up to the task. and with my 6950 it looks damn good as well, again not what you'd want to hear but...

as for flying in expert, i have always enjoyed reading your posts and feedback as you are a real pilot and i too had (and continue to have) high hopes for tkoh. be interested to hear what you and other actual pilots think should be improved as i am also having a tricky time flying it and thought it was my lack of skill - which it probably is as well.

dga

Oct 29 2011, 02:13

first, turn off vsync

I am a real helicopter pilot

No you are not.

Your computer crashes? Maaan, you got way other problem with your computer than not being able to fly a straight :D

But...sure...the other "99%" are lying and just trying to sell you a "shi*tty game"...riiiiight.

Panther353

Oct 29 2011, 02:23

I've notice a real difference in the flight model between the missions and free flight. Both are set to the "trainee" level. In the training missions I seem to be all over. Trying to come up into a hover especially. Practice the same maneuver in free flight and she's rock steady. Doesn't make any sense that the flight model or control inputs would be different.

dga

Oct 29 2011, 02:25

I've notice a real difference in the flight model between the missions and free flight.

Different chopper?
Or...my best guess ... different weather... less wiiiind.

Panther353

Oct 29 2011, 03:02

Nope, same helo and although the weather was different there was wind. It didn't react like it was wind either. It acts like there is some wild control input happening. I did not notice this in the preview edition.

[DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

Oct 29 2011, 03:07

No you are not.

yes, he is.
open mouth, insert foot?

nightsta1ker

Oct 29 2011, 03:41

-Ziggy-;2046338']yes, he is.
open mouth, insert foot?

Yes, indeed I am a real pilot. Not only am I a real helicopter pilot, but I am an instructor as well.

As far as my graphics card goes, Yes, I know I don't have top of the line. But my card runs every other game I own very well, including Arma and Arma 2 with no issues. After looking at the recommended minimum hardware, you are right, what I have does not cut it and is probably causing my problems. So... maybe an apology is in order. I am still not happy that I spent 50 bucks on something I can't use, but if it's my own darn fault for not reading the directions, so be it.

I will try some of the other "tweaks" I am reading about to see if I can get the most of my performance. I also may have a new card purchase in order, though I really don't have the cash...

I was just really really disapointed with what I was seeing, compared to the public beta that I tested extensively, the final version felt nothing like it and I was just shocked, and disappointed.

DWarden, I would give you specifics, but since I don't have the hardware to run this properly, my feedback is basically worthless anyway.

Consider this my official apology for the original post.

[DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

Oct 29 2011, 03:57

I'm sorry if I came off rude, but I find myself quick to defend BIS and the community. :o

considering whats out there and what this game requires, for a single card, I probably would not go for anything less than a GTX460.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130570

really any card will be better than what you have. then, say goodbye to your input lag and terrible graphics. :cool:

nightsta1ker

Oct 29 2011, 04:05

-Ziggy-;2046356']I'm sorry if I came off rude, but I find myself quick to defend BIS and the community. :o

considering whats out there and what this game requires, for a single card, I probably would not go for anything less than a GTX460.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814130570

really any card will be better than what you have. then, say goodbye to your input lag and terrible graphics. :cool:

No worries Ziggy, I deserved it. Before I checked back here I knew I should have done some troubleshooting before I posted such a scathing review. I really had no idea my graphics card was that outdated... all the stupid numbers and letters... GT, GX... I thought my 530 was a decent card. And seriously, I have NO issues with other programs. I am not a computer whiz by any means. All this stuff is voodoo to me.

4 IN 1

Oct 29 2011, 04:22

my GTX260 is showing age as well, so generally, I think the first thing for you is to get a better GFX card, GTX560 seems to be a good choose for the bucks

(I myself wont go for any upgrade aside from a SDD or two untill ArmA3 "hopefully" coming out next year, if nothing went wrong that is:p)

ArmAriffic

Oct 29 2011, 04:45

Just a note, it says The brand new helicopter game from independent developers Bohemia Interactive not Helicopter Simulator :)

lucasdigital

Oct 29 2011, 05:05

I think we've all suffered episodes of game rage. I'm loving TOH, but there's no way I'd have got through the training landings/takeoff without the auto-hover, it really is tough to stop a slight pitch from getting out of control. That said, I put 400 hours into Modern Warfare 2, if I put a 10th of that time into this, how better will I fly? I guess a big part of my pleasure from flight sims is the satisfaction I get from clambering up the learning curve. Someone who already has the muscle memory of real helicopter flying is going to have a hard time with any sim. I've flown with numerous fast-jet pilots, who've all said that, while they love sims too, it's simply impossible to accurately replicate the experience on a home PC.

Tusler

Oct 29 2011, 05:17

I am running a P67 MB with the I7 2600K cpu @<hidden> with a GTX 560TI 2gig video card and I am getting great frame rates, no lag. I have textures set to high and most other stuff. I do notice the blade stall but if you back off the cyclic and the collective it is very manageable.
One thing almost all simmers have gotten use to doing is over driving, be it a car, airplane or helicopter and getting away with it. Well this sim here is not going to be over driven. In black shark over driving crashes rotor blades. Here over driving creates a blade stall condition on the advancing blade.
This one will take time, practice and study before it is mastered.
Thanks guys for another tech leap fore-ward for helicopter simulations on the personal computer!!

Gabe_Ruckus

Oct 29 2011, 05:18

I think I'm getting it with the light choppers, they're really the only ones that feel "right" in terms of flight model.

The ground effect seems overdone, it sends the birds back up into the air and I usually have to dump the collective to put them on the ground, causes a lot of overshooting the pad. It's especially bad with the heavy and fastroping, it's right at that edge of no ground effect to crazy ground effect when it wants to deploy ropes. They also shoot off the ground at takeoff, there's no sense of inertia with them.

I beat all the story missions so far, it was fairly short as far as games go, doing all the side missions now to see what happens, but the flight model on the heavy keeps me from wanting to do any sling loading. Anyway, looking forward to some patches, and to see what the community starts doing with the tools.

To get back on topic for performance issues: I was having a lot of trouble, settled on 7000 for viewdistance, and I just crank it up on the South Asia map since there's not as many objects. Post processing is off, clouds are very low (Got a lot of FPS from that, wierd), Vsync off, objects high, tex very high, 1080p screen res with no AA. Anistropic filtering is set at normal because it kills my FPS looking at the ocean with it maxed out, although it's good anywhere else. Maybe we could get a separate control for water?

The PiP was great in the community preview, I never had any slowdowns from it, but I've got it off now, it sucks up about 15 fps when it's on.

I'm using a GTX 460M, with the latest drivers and some modest, careful overclocking, it's pretty smooth at 35-45 fps, even in Seattle.

4 IN 1

Oct 29 2011, 06:13

I have to lower my VD to 5000, turn everything to low turn off shadow to get my FPS back to 30/40 ish, thats how HW hungry the final version is I think.

And yes, I agree that ground effect is still over done, and the airframe would just shoot itself off the ground by just putting slight amount of collective, and there is still too much roll applied, in short the problem in beta are still there it seems, or through I can't tell if the effect of the problem is slightly less then that of the beta with my crappy joystick and flying skill

nightsta1ker

Oct 29 2011, 06:28

Good points made by all. I am aware of the limitations of sim vs. reality, I was simming well before I ever got my ratings. I also know how accurate it CAN be within the limitations of a game. I helped the developer of the Dreamfoil R22 for X-plane test his flight dynamics and provide feedback on systems and behavior for it, and it is arguably one of the most realistic helicopters on a home computer. That doesn't make it perfect. Nothing can match reality.

I also know that this is a game and not a sim. I was not expecting a sim. What I was expecting was a game with some additional realism, which is what they advertised. After months of testing and providing feedback, myself and several other real pilots started to get worried that this game might not live up to it's potential. But maybe it did. Maybe I just cannot experience that because my hardware sucks. I don't think my expectations were unrealistic. I was not hoping for anything they did not advertise.

When I get my hardware figured out, I will give it another go and re-assess.

By the way.... is a GTX260 better than a GT530? I have the former sitting in my OLD computer, I had upgraded the stock GPU. The GT530 came with my new computer. Would I see any gain if I switched them, even if the 260 is still on the low end?

[DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

Oct 29 2011, 06:36

yes, it's way better.
If I was going to buy a card today for TOH, it wouldn't be a 260, but considering you already have it, plug that shit in ! :yay:

Remon

Oct 29 2011, 09:26

By the way.... is a GTX260 better than a GT530? I have the former sitting in my OLD computer, I had upgraded the stock GPU. The GT530 came with my new computer. Would I see any gain if I switched them, even if the 260 is still on the low end?

Much much better, the 210/310/510 and up to 230/330/430/530 Geforce models weren't meant for gaming, they were targetted at the OEM and Home Theater PC market. The entry level cards are the x50s and even those are considered slow, although adequate for most games.

Sickboy

Oct 29 2011, 09:38

If you are experiencing crashes, report them properly and they can solve them; http://dev-heaven.net/projects/cis/wiki/CIT#How-to-report-a-crash

Otherwise, it's no rocket science that if you have horrible performance that many things don't work as they are intended, and that you will have difficulty flying properly.

GTX 260? What about an AMD 6950 or 6870?

Remon

Oct 29 2011, 09:40

... Post processing is off, clouds are very low (Got a lot of FPS from that, wierd)...

Not weird at all, as they're using Simul Weather, which in turn uses volumetric clouds. Volumetric clouds are notorious performance killers (if you remember the very begining of Crysis when you paradrop out of the airplane).

4 IN 1

Oct 29 2011, 10:09

Sickboy

Oct 29 2011, 10:10

Take away the "hate ATI/nvidia" thing, GTX260 was a good card for the buck on the nvidia side.Hate ATI/nvidia thing is something you just made up.
I simply believe 6950 (often easily flashable to 6970!) / 6870 give you most bang for your buck at this moment in time, that's all.
I don't care if it's Nvidia or AMD..

Though I must admit that I have had more issues with running the ARMA engine based games with Nvidia cards, like 8800 GTX and GTX 280. If that were issues with my system or not, who knows..

metalcraze

Oct 29 2011, 10:16

It had something to do with 260/280/295 (aka 260x2) chip architecture (they are the same chip basically). Driver crashes (that black screen issue) happen once in a while and they are not exclusive to ArmA, had them in Faces of War too.

I'd personally recommend to wait until GTX6xx cards come out to be ArmA3-proof as well (it's what I'm doing right now :> )

4 IN 1

Oct 29 2011, 10:42

I don't have those problem, I do got some problem running ATI through, but having that said I also don't really care if it is ATI or Nvidia as well, as at the time I buy my GTX260 it is cheaper then ATI 69XX card.(I would love to see which side are better for Arma3)

stormridersp

Oct 29 2011, 12:03

Since we're discussing VideoCard related issues here, I won't bother creating a new topic.
I own a Macbook Pro 2.66 Dual 64bits, NVidia GT330M, which is my working station. I have W7 Bootcamp instalation btw. Right now I can't afford the luxury of having a dedicated gaming station pc.
I used to run ArmaII and its upgrades at medium/high settings specially when flying, so I wonder, will it run at all?

nightsta1ker

Oct 29 2011, 17:07

I will plug my 260 in and wait for a new high end card to come out so I will have something for A3. I love me some flying games, but I love to kill me some tangos too!

"BOOM HEADSHOT!!!!"

Thanks for the advice guys.

froggyluv

Oct 29 2011, 17:16

Heres a good point of reference for Graphic card ratings:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/best-graphics-card-gaming-performance,3042-7.html

Also note: never trust Best Buy employees on PC hardware!

TAW_RiEvEr

Oct 29 2011, 17:37

I would give the guy a break, simply because most real human beings are incapable of telling how powerful a graphics card is any more as all the manufacturers basically re-badged their crappy old cards for DX11 without saying "Hey, this is an old 7600 with a new number."

If we really want to help those less techy users out, someone needs to add the minimum and recommended card numbers from the NEW numbering systems.

Honestly guys, I see this all the time. Most end-users think stuff like "My NVidia card is way newer than an old 8800GT, it'll work really well"

Perhaps someone could do a link to a chart showing the lack of performance of some of these 'new' cards, particularly the 'S' versions! :)

EDIT: took so long over replying that Froggy linked one - great chart, now get someone to add that chart link to the system specs post/page and maybe some newer users will buy the right cards ;)

EDIT2: noticed that chart is already linked in the official 'Video Settings' thread, right at the bottom http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=126178

dga

Oct 29 2011, 22:24

Yes, indeed I am a real pilot. Not only am I a real helicopter pilot, but I am an instructor as well.

I just said "you are not", because I expected better manners and more helpful criticism from one like you :D

RoyaltyinExile

Oct 29 2011, 22:45

MD500Enthusiast

Oct 30 2011, 00:54

actually it's more than just the wind, it's called a wind gust. the wind might change directions rapidly. if you look at your wind sock you might be able to see that it's swinging around the poll. plus the in free flight you might have a stock helicopter where in career your helo might be fitted with specialized equipment which could cause the helicopter to fly differently.

nightsta1ker

Oct 30 2011, 03:59

Nightstalker has provided some really great feedback over the last couple of months, and - like other real-world pilots - it's fantastic to have their expertise on board.

The same feeling, of course, extends to everyone who's provided feedback - no matter their expertise. While changes aren't integrated as quickly as feedback is given, they never go unheard. Helicopters are wild animals, though. :o

I understand his frustration, and continue welcome his, and other pilots input in the the Take On helicopters project. Maybe next time just RTFM. :D As we mentioned in our Ripten Interview (http://www.ripten.com/2011/10/28/ripten-interview-take-on-helicopters/) (many thanks to Murray for asking the tough questions), it's difficult, it's not perfect, but there is potential here, and we're trying to unlock this potential to a whole range of simthusiasts, new and old. Hm, not sure that's a word. ;)

Best,
RiE

I was definitely in bad form when I posted that. It was at the end of a hairraising week rigging flight controls an a Chinook helicopter. I haven't gotten to fly a real helo in weeks (no students at the moment). It took 4 hours to download TOH from Sprocket. My internet has been on the fritz and I had the Comcast guy out for the 3rd time in as many months. So when I fired the game up and it pooped I was a little pissed. I probably should have taken a cold shower before posting.

I will try and be more professional from here on out.

My GTX 260 will run the game, barely. No crashes yet, but my fan spools up so fast I worry my computer will explode! I need a new card. I may sneak out tomorrow and pick one up while the wife is out.

My impression so far is as follows:

I have only tried the light helo in free flight. In expert mode, with everything mapped except throttle, I feel like the helicopter wants to float. Full down collective and the helicopter settles at a very very reduced rate from the real thing. Lowering the collective in a real helo gives you a descent rate of 1500-2000 FPM. I am getting maybe 500 FPM in TOH. Also, the stability dynamics seem backwards. By this I mean that, a helicopter fuselage dangles from the rotor system, which is supporting it as it is the part that is actually flying. So imagine holding a pendulum from your hand. As you move your hand, the pendulum responds, this is the kind of motion that should be depicted in a hover. It seems opposite to me, more like trying to balance a pencil on your hand. It wants to fall over, whereas a pendulum wants to dangle directly below you and is trying to find its equilibrium. When you tilt the rotor disk in a helicopter in a hover, you slide in that direction, not roll over, because the airframe wants to stay DOWN. In order to roll the helicopter over, you need a pivot point, like a skid touching the ground, or a rock or a grass patch. It needs to GRAB something in order to give it that rolling moment. You cant just roll the heli over by applying lateral cyclic in the hover, you will just take off in whatever direction you pointed the cyclic until you correct it, or hit something. Not to say it WOULDN'T roll over if you completely rediculously overcontrolled the thing. But it doesn't inherrently WANT to do that.

WHEW! I hope that makes sense.

Regarding the throttle.... I have a full helicopter control set with a twist grip throttle on the collective. Is there any way you could assign an analogue setting for those of us that have the hardware to simulate a roll on/off throttle? This also may be helpful to people who have a HOTAS joystick. Being able to control the throttle is key to starting, shutting down, simulating power failures and dealing with things like governor failures (manually controlling the throttle setting for a given pitch setting). This would definitely make the pilot types happy.

Thanks for being patient with me.

Scott

jcgam

Oct 30 2011, 04:07

Regarding the throttle.... I have a full helicopter control set with a twist grip throttle on the collective. Is there any way you could assign an analogue setting for those of us that have the hardware to simulate a roll on/off throttle? This also may be helpful to people who have a HOTAS joystick. Being able to control the throttle is key to starting, shutting down, simulating power failures and dealing with things like governor failures (manually controlling the throttle setting for a given pitch setting). This would definitely make the pilot types happy.

I would like to have a working analog throttle too for flexibility and realism.

4 IN 1

Oct 30 2011, 09:46

nightsta1ker

Oct 30 2011, 15:56

Rigging cable will result in whoever doing the job start swearing it seems, I know I would:p

Back on topic, Yes a direct control over throttle would be a good addiction, but I don't seems to find any thorttle control on market that are specially design for rotary, is your rig custom built?

There are several available. This is what I have. http://rainman.tv/index_files/rainman_helisim.htm

There are also several other commercial manufacturers avialable. This stuff is pricey, and I wouldn't recommend it just for TOH. This is hardcore simmer stuff here. I use mine for training with X-plane (hardcore realistic flight dynamics), but it works for TOH too.

An analogue throttle setting could also be mapped to buttons on the joystick. We just need the ability to roll it on and off. I HATE having to look down at the throttle and use my mouse to bring it from full to idle, etc. In the real thing, I just twist my wrist. Buttons on a joystick, throttle quadrant for HOTAS sticks, and setups like mine would all benefit from having an analogue throttle setting. I don't think it would be very hard to implement. And those that don't want to use it don't have to!

BeePee

Oct 30 2011, 16:56

I HATE having to look down at the throttle and use my mouse to bring it from full to idle, etc.
I perfectly understand and agree with you about analog throttle, it should be there! But you don't have to use your mouse to change throttle setting. I have two buttons on my joystick mapped to do that. One for throttle up and second for throttle down. So if I want to shut down engine I just push second button twice.

OMAC

Oct 30 2011, 17:01

Guys, there are keybinds that will make changing throttle easier:

Rctrl+insert = throttle increase
Rctrl+delete = throttle decrease

and others binds for engines 2 and 3. Check your controls. Hope that helps.

nightsta1ker

Oct 30 2011, 17:54

Thanks OMAC, I have that setup now, but I would still like an analogue option :)

4 IN 1

Oct 31 2011, 01:42

I am now using Number pad + right ctrl to do all 3 engines starter and throttle control, make sense as well because the 3x3 are very natural to use.

fboes

Oct 31 2011, 06:04

nightsta1ker

Oct 31 2011, 14:22

Yeah, on my Logitech Extreme I have the starter 1 / 2 and throttle 1 / 2 bound to the six buttons right next to collective. Feels more like the real thing. :)

@<hidden>: What are the button and the coolie hat on the stick of the real-life MD500 (or any civil helicopter for that matter) for? Trimming?

The coolie hat on top is cyclic trim. The trigger is a two step mike key, first step is intercom, second step is transmit. Other bottoms and switches commonly found are usually tied to radio freq changers, hook releases etc.

fboes

Oct 31 2011, 18:22

Thanks for the info. So I still have some tweaking to do with my controls. :)