Tank Idea

[WebDog]

I have heard of a tank class challenger or somthing like that. It can whip a T-80 pretty quick.

[Aaron Kane]

The Challenger is the main British tank. I think its also one of the most heavily armored IRL, and its gun packs one #### of a punch also.

Hurray for England

[Miles]

yeah its cool

[Hasha]

T-95 kick its mama!

[Aaron Kane]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Hasharajima on 2:36 am on Nov. 20, 2001
T-95 kick its mama![/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Dude, the Challenger's mom died in labor! Show some respect!

[Unl33t]

Ah hahahah

[Intruder]

Challenger Rules :biggrin: !

[The Blind Sniper]

T-95?

My hovertank can beat that

[Havelock]

Challanger 2 has the best armour of any Western production tank, a gun control system based on an upgraded version of the Abrams's system, and a rather nice gun.

Its immediate ancestor, the Challanger 1, was a tad reliability-problem prone but the new version seems to have fixed that.

As long as stupid cost-cutting measures are not implemented. During the recent exercises in Oman the MoD tried to save money by not properly preparing the vehicles for the desert. (Sand Filters, etc). Result: a significant proportion of engines damaged within 48 hours.

Bloody typical, as my grandmother would say.

--
Currently reading - The Crow Road - Iain Banks
Currently listening - Is That It - The Strokes

[bertiebasset]

Talking of british units along with the SA80 id like to see the challengers predecessor the Chieftain and the Scimitar Light scout tank included.

(Edited by bertiebasset at 8:39 pm on Nov. 20, 2001)

[Gilroyg2001]

Hwy, you forgot the warrior APC, now thats a good APC, wayyy better in my view than a M113, the english army rule! (As you can probably tell I'm from England)

[ACT SMILEY]

Is it me or do we start with unreliable but quality stuff for the army and then make it into the best in the world later?
Now the airforce, thats the best stuff from the start http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[The Jub-Jub Bird]

I think thats because they are crazy ideas in the first place, nothing bog standard, must be the best and most powerful and gonna whoop you ass! As a result we tend to go a little to far and over do them resulting in mass failure all round. But hey once they finished do we get rather lovely kit!!!!!!

[Havelock]

Without wishing to raise anyone's hackles, I think the British Army is a tad more accurate than the English Army (unless you want some of the more scary Highland regiments on the other side).

The strength of the British Army (and its armed forces in general) is not in its equipment (which tends to be average/good, with occasional bloopers and brilliants) but in the superb training of its fighting men (and women of course)

--
Currently reading - The Crow Road - Iain Banks
Currently listening - the news

[The Jub-Jub Bird]

Well it is the excellently trained (some say best) service men that put up with the kit and inprevise when something goes wrong with the kit.

[Chernaya Akula]

The Black Eagle kick Challenger ass....

http://www.warsecrets.hpg.ig.com.br/internacional/38/warsecrets-4-fl_album1.gif
http://www.warsecrets.hpg.ig.com.br/internacional/38/warsecrets-4-fl_album3.jpeg
http://www.warsecrets.hpg.ig.com.br/internacional/38/warsecrets-4-fl_album2.jpeg

This is a MBT..

(Edited by Spetznaz at 11:52 pm on Nov. 20, 2001)

[Krull SGC]

The folks who designed that tank (a T-80UM2 I believe) watch way too much Star Trek, look at the turret, Federation starship anybody?!?!?!?

[Chernaya Akula]

His name is Black Eagle, and anyone know too much about this tank first because I think that he still a test tank, and secont becuse the Russians don't give no information about him,, I just know that he 'll rules the combat zone... http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[murphywnjuk]

finally, a group of people who are interested in BRITISH (not ENGLISH) units!!!!!!

[M79]

the Challanger WITHDREW from NATO tank trials because it kept coming last.

Great tank , fit in well to OPF http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[ACT SMILEY]

M79 - probably because it stopped working. Typical British stuff, always great always breaking down.

[The Jub-Jub Bird]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from ACT SMILEY on 8:58 pm on Nov. 21, 2001
M79 - probably because it stopped working. Typical British stuff, always great always breaking down.[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

And yet still has what is considered to be the best army world-over, crazy that.

[Aaron Kane]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Spetznaz on 12:17 am on Nov. 21, 2001
His name is Black Eagle, and anyone know too much about this tank first because I think that he still a test tank, and secont becuse the Russians don't give no information about him,, I just know that he 'll rules the combat zone... http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>


Oh? Lets see how tough it is when a NATO FCS (They're bound to give it an offical name someday http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ) nails it from 10km away http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[The Blind Sniper]

Russian & American tanks have a history of sucking
Russian tanks have usually been quite relable, but underarmed & underarmored
Abrams is the first good idea the yanks have had

British tanks such as the Centurion & the Chieftan ruled the 50s-70s

I think the challenger is one of the world's best existing tanks... would be a good addition to OFP

I understand why the Abrams and T80 are an "almost" equal match in OFP, for gameplay.. but lets look at it realistically.. I think the kill ratio between the 2 would be 5-1, if that. Driving the Abrams would be like having god mode on.

[ChickenHawk]

Hey M79 give me some proof of that pls.. & #### yes the brit army is the best in the world & the special forces too. I know the Spetznaz is good but we prolly have the best special forces record. We got new rounds too that can reach 5 times further than the origionals check mod website I cant b bothered to copy n paste..

[[S.I.S.]Necromancer]

the Leopard 2A6 is better looking http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Gilroyg2001]

You may mock the british army, but the SAS IS the best special operations service in the world. Whenever a job needs doing, the SAS are sent in first, whenever a dictator needs assasinating the SAS are sent in, compared to the SAS the delta force are like normal grunts.

[The Jub-Jub Bird]

I would almost agree with you. But I should imagine that the SBS are pretty d*amned good too. It some respects its a shame that their activities have remained such well kept secrets when compared to the SAS because we have no idea what they are doing. All I know is they are complete phycos and would eat the SAS for breakfast.

[ran]

sbs..... special boat service no ?
date of creation ? i think it was before the sas http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[The Jub-Jub Bird]

Indeed, kinda like the Seal in the US.

[Stag]

They were created at the same time. They are to the Royal Marines what the SAS is to the Army. As a matter of fact, a lot of missions which are attributed to the SAS were actually done by the SBS, but they really do keep their mouths shut.

BTW, It's "Special Boat Squadron."

[Scooby]

And once again discussion gets into special forces.

There is little you know...

[Stag]

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Okay, back on topic, then. I'd like to see Challenger as well, And Warrior, Chieftain, FV432 Scorpion, And Scimitar, which is almost the same as Scorpion, But mounts a 30 mike RARDEN cannon instead. it is Recon for infantry formations, while the Scorpion with its 76mm gun is issued to the armoured regiments. Lynx, Puma Wessex and Harriers, SA80, LSW, SLR and GPMG, and that green plastic thing with a screw lid which nobody has any idea what the #### it's for...

They're never seen in the field BTW. Just on the shelves in Army Surplus stores...

(Edited by Wardog at 10:27 pm on Nov. 22, 2001)

[Miles]

......and ghurkas, as90 bravehearts etc

[ScreamingWithNoSound]

For the record, I *think* the best tank in the world is the Leopard 2... Germans have always been fantastic engineers... look at WW2, they, inside 4 years, went from having the *worst* tanks in the world, to having the best.

Don't get me wrong, I use to live next door to one of the factorsy where Challengers were built (ahh... the sweet sound of that turbine engine at 7:30 in the morning...), that is, until they moth-balled the plant.

The thing about the British, the people at the top don't understand investment... We are the best inovators in the world - Jet engine, HTML, Dyson vacuum cleaners http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif, but we never spend the money on developing the ideas... that's why all the equipment we have is so poor. Take the SA80 - introduce in 1989-1991. It was soooo bad, that you have to clean it RELIGIOUSLY and even then, if it gets a bit cold or a bit hot or a bit dusty, you'll get 1 round from it, before it jams... The pre-production was so bad, that if you put 60 round through one on full auto, the plastic grip around the barrel would literally melt!

As for British soldiers. They are the best. It says so in the advert! http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif But seriously, even American officers can see that our training techniques are superior. Not much good when you gun won't fire though http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

SBS are the real top dogs... the word SAS is deliberately put about to cover up the fact that the SBS was involved. Also for the record, std issue to British special forces is either MP5xxx (for close quarters) and M4 Carbine (general / field). For some reason, they don't bother with SA80s...

[Krechet1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from The Blind Sniper on 2:58 pm on Nov. 22, 2001
Russian & American tanks have a history of sucking
Russian tanks have usually been quite relable, but underarmed & underarmored
Abrams is the first good idea the yanks have had

British tanks such as the Centurion & the Chieftan ruled the 50s-70s

I think the challenger is one of the world's best existing tanks... would be a good addition to OFP

I understand why the Abrams and T80 are an "almost" equal match in OFP, for gameplay.. but lets look at it realistically.. I think the kill ratio between the 2 would be 5-1, if that. Driving the Abrams would be like having god mode on.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

actually British tanks have a loooong history of sucking. Since WW2, when concept of sloped armour did not exist for the British (shining examples of British "genous" are Mathilda and Crusader).

As for Russian tanks supposetly sucking, well T-34 won WW2 and generally during WW2 Russian tanks had heavies armour (single KV-1 held whole german Armoured devision, untill 88 gun could be towed during early stages of Barbarossa). IS-3 was the beast of the '40s and early '50s and T-55 ruled the '50s with T-64 replacing it in mid '60s.

[ScreamingWithNoSound]

You're spot on there Krechet! British tanks during WW2 sucked, BIGTIME!

[Havelock]

They certainly did .... until 1945 when the Centurion tank came along. That, and the Chieftain that followed, were truely kings of the battlefield until the late 70's. Challanger 1 let it go, I agree (in maintainance, not ideas), but Challanger 2 brings it back home.

A University friend of mine works for Vickers as a tank designer. He always said the best armoured designs in the world were Brazilian.

[Supah]

brazilian?http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif are those ppl who fled germany after its defeat in ww2? or are they just that good in brazil?

[Satchel]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Krechet1 on 4:50 am on Nov. 23, 2001
As for Russian tanks supposetly sucking, well T-34 won WW2 and generally during WW2 Russian tanks had heavies armour (single KV-1 held whole german Armoured devision, untill 88 gun could be towed during early stages of Barbarossa). IS-3 was the beast of the '40s and early '50s and T-55 ruled the '50s with T-64 replacing it in mid '60s.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Sure, the T-34 was a tool to help win the war on the eastern front such as the U.S. Jeep, C-47 and others, but what actually decided the fate of german troops was the russian winter and no vehicle. German Troops had inappropiate clothes and gear for such a drastic climate change, their attack became bogged down in mud and cold. Much needed supplys didn´t came through, when they did, it wasn´t enough and not in time.
Many german vehicles had to be abandoned, because of fuel and parts shortage.
Soviets however didn´t have those problems, for every T-34 destroyed 2 replacements rolled out of the plants. At times it was this hefty, that at 500m or even less located from the T-34 manufacturing plant there were battles raging, as soon as a T-34 had been assembled in the hall, a crew was on standby to drive it directly into battle. After all russians were fighting in their enviroment, not against but with natural elements and their production capability couldn´t be destroyed yet.

As far as the T-34 is concerned, it was probably the toughest Tank at beginning of Barbarossa, german Panzerfausts, 37 mm PAK´s and Panzer III (5cm KwK L/42) were mostly unable to penetrate its armor, the early Pz IV had to shoot the T-34´s rear with it´s short 7,5 cm Cannon to destroy it.
At the beginning of the campaign the only effective weapons against a T-34 was 88mm Flak and heavy Artillery, that both were not in sufficent numbers available. As a last resort to kill a T-34 german soldiers used charges, mines and handgenades.
With increased output and usage of the 7,5 cm PAK and later the Pz IV F2 w 75mm cannon 40 L/43 , the T-34 could be destroyed at ranges around 1000m and more.
With later introduction of the Panther and Tiger the T-34 was outgunned, outdated and outarmored completely.
While Tiger crews achived kills with the extremely capable 88mm cannon on ranges as far as 2000m from any angle on the T-34, in some cases even at 3900m, T-34´s needed to shoot from 500m or less on the Tigers side or rear to have at least a chance to penetrate the armor. For comparison, first Tigers had 60mm of minimum armor and 110mm on the front, whereas the T-34 had armor between 30mm min and 45mm max.
The T-34 as all other russian tanks, was simple and of conventional design, it never was anywhere near the ergonomic and command&control abilities of german Tanks.
The soviets had a simple doctrine for building tanks; the normal soviet soldier is of low education, therefore complicated vehicle constructions are of disadvantage.
This however resulted in virtually to simplistic design for the T-34, that put it behind any german tank in regards of ergonomy and control.
Regarding command&control; a radio was missing in most T-34´s in 1941/1942 so virtually no control in unit operations, also the turret was to small for the commander accomplishing his actual role (commanding the tank/ or other units) there were no effective possibilities to observe the battlefield with hatches closed, instead he was more busy readjusting the cannon, as he was gunner at the same time till 1943.
There was no rotary turret compartment seperated from the hull, so that Loader and Commander either had to stood in the hull, or seating on seats mounted in the turret, with their legs dangling freely.
Both the commander and loader had to enter the vehicle through one large hatch, there were no seperated hatches for entering/ exiting/ observation.
The ammunition was stored mainly on the hull floor, below some mats and was difficult to access, therefore the T-34 had a relatively low ROF in a sustained battle as nearly all soviet tanks, especially the JS models.
The last T-34 model to see action in the war was the T-34/85-I introduced in late 1943, to overcome the disadvantage to later Panzer IV´s, now featured a bigger turret and 85mm cannon instead of 76mm, and a gunner took place near the commander, so that the commander was finally able to do what he´s supposed to.
Because of the flat turret, the cannon could hardly be aimed at negative angles, only -3° were possible.
But it had good mobility, due to an V-2-34 500ps Diesel engine, big wheels and wide treads it was able to move were most german tanks became bogged down.

[NVA Killer]

http://wsphotofews.excite.com/006/Dw/HY/Pq/jZ63890.jpg

is it me or does the Warrior APC look like a bradley?

[Aaron Kane]

I just found out a while ago that the Fairchild plant is about 30 minutes from my house http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Those are the guys who manufactured and designed the A-10, for anyone that didnt know.

[Greg Dragunovski]

Ummmmm just wanted to say something about the challenger........its ass can be kicked anyday by a "little" tank called the "T-90 TWARDY(polish version)"!!!!

SORRY GUYS BUT I HAVE NEVER SEEN A GOOD ENGLISH TANK OR HELICOPTER OR PLANE OR JEEP OR TRUCK AND NO I AM NOT BLIND!

T-90 has everything you need "additional cushion armor"(armor that takes the impact before the principal armor),flares that can blow any freaking AT missile, a good old FREAKING CANNON and machine gun to take care of any English crew that tries to escape from the burning CHALLENGER......

[Charlie_McSheenie]

''--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For the record, I *think* the best tank in the world is the Leopard 2... Germans have always been fantastic engineers... look at WW2, they, inside 4 years, went from having the *worst* tanks in the world, to having the best''

the russians were the best tank manufacturers in WW2, the tigers and panthers etc.. may've packed a large, whopping guin, and b*tch slapped the american and british tanks, but on the eastern front they totally sucked ass. dump a bit of snow down and a hill and they'd stop in there tracks, while all the russians tanks would seamlessly cross over all terrain. T-34 was the best tanbk of the war, you could probably get 5 for the price of one tiger, they were easy to maintain (unlike most german tanks) reliable, and had large whopping guns capable of f**king up even tigers by the end of the war, they had a lot of armor too, and you could probably make one nowadays in CDT class (given a week or two).

then you had the ISU 152, the animal killer, which killed loads of loads of panthers and tigers (hence the name).

and the challenger 2 would b*tch slap a T-90 all over siberia if given the chance, better gun, heavier armor, more electronics etc... thats why russian tanks are so cheap, so they can have 4 or 5 to take on every one NATO tank.....

[The Jub-Jub Bird]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Greg Dragunovski on 4:28 am on Nov. 24, 2001

SORRY GUYS BUT I HAVE NEVER SEEN A GOOD ENGLISH TANK OR HELICOPTER OR PLANE OR JEEP OR TRUCK AND NO I AM NOT BLIND!
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Well then if your not blind...then you need to get out more. mmm a good English tank? Well we needent go far from the thread to answer that one. The Challenger 2 is widely accepted across the world as the best tank and is setting the standards for design of tanks in other countries (even the US).

A good English helicopter? Would the Army Lynx do for you? Not only does it have laser designating facilities, troop carrying capability, side mounting pylons capable of carrying TOWs, Hellfires, HOTs, RBS-70s, AS-12s, Stingers, a variety of minigun designs and SNORE and SNEB rockets but it is also the fastest production helicopter in the world! Breath

Good English plane? My God. How about the whole Harrier range? Or the Panavia Tornado which formed the backbone of all very successful airstrikes during the Gulf War and provided a huge proportion of the allied air presence.

Good English Jeep? Are you stupid? Jeep is an American company who make off road vehicles. But I can name good English off road vehicles, just have to name a Land Rover really.

And a good English Truck, well not knowing much about trucks, I would say the 4 tonner is probably pretty good.

Thankyou for listening and a good day to you all!

[Stag]

Jub-Jub, You do realise that you have exactly ZERO chance of convincing an adolescent?

If you do manage, you could probably make a fortune nailing jelly to ceilings...

BTW, you forgot the big one; The Apache Longbow. Westland took the US airframe, re-did the avionics and sensor suites and sold it to the British Army. The US is in the process of ugrading its Apache fleet to British standards. http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Satchel]

The T-34 didn´t had "a lot of armor", it wasn´t even half of the armor strength the Tiger I featured.
The largest gun in use on a T-34 during the war was a 85mm cannon, that wasn´t near as capable in regards of armor penetration, range and accuracy as German 88mm 36/ L56 in combination with the PzGran 40.

Some Tiger War stories:
On July 7th of 1943, single Tiger tank commanded by SS-Oberscharfuehrer Franz Staudegger from 2nd Platoon of 13th Panzer Company of 1st SS Panzer Grenadier Division "LSSAH" engaged Soviet group of some 50 T-34 tanks around Psyolknee (southern sector of the Kursk salient). Staudegger used up his entire ammunition after destroying 22 Soviet tanks, while the rest retreated. For his achievement, Franz Staudegger was awarded the Knight's Cross.

On August 8th of 1944, single Tiger commanded by SS-Unterscharfuehrer Willi Fey from the 1st Company of sSSPzAbt 102, engaged a British tank column destroying some 14 out of 15 Shermans, followed by one more later in the day using his last two rounds of ammunition. sSSPzAbt 102 lost all of its Tigers during fighting in Normandy but reported 227 Allied tanks destroyed during the period of 6 weeks.

Regarding the ISU/SU -152, it was an assault gun, with large calibre howitzer, no dedicated main battle tank- a self propelled piece of artillery if you will.
It´s large 152mm AP rounds, weighting nearly 50kg, were proving effective against Tigers and Panthers, it was especially suited for city fighting and assaulting Strongholds, where it´s HE rounds proved devastating.
But it was relatively slow, featured no rotating turret, and had a very low rate of fire( 2 shots/ min) in addition to a small ammo loadout (20 rounds mixed AP/HE), so ammunition carriers had to accompany it for reloading.
The armor of the ISU-152 was good, but not as good as that of later German Tanks, it was 90mm maximum, compared to the Tigers 110mm.
It´s like comparing apples to oranges, for a realistic comparison you should compare the ISU-152 to the PzKpfw VIII Maus or PzKpfw VI Tiger II Ausf. B
Königstiger. The later one was the most powerful Tank of WW2.

"On the road from Bollersdorf to Strausberg stood a further 11 Stalin tanks, and away on the egde of the village itself were around 120-150 enemy tanks in the process of being refuelled and re-armed. I opened fire and destroyed first and last of the 11 Stalin tanks on the road....My own personal score of enemy tanks destroyed in this action was 39."

SS-Hauptscharführer Karl Körner,
schwere SS Panzer Abteilung (103) 503 / III SS Panzer Corps,
East Germany, April of 1945.

You don´t have to forget that germans almost always fought in minority and disadvantage in later stages of WW2, mainly with unexperienced men and in serious shortage of everything. It was not uncommon that a single group of 8 men and one Tank defended a terrain strip as wide as 3 KM, the industry was completly destroyed, there were not enough tanks, those destroyed couldn´t be replaced. It was rare on most frontlines to spot a german heavy tank after 1944.

[The Jub-Jub Bird]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Wardog on 4:34 pm on Nov. 24, 2001
You do realise that you have exactly ZERO chance of convincing an adolescent?

If you do manage, you could probably make a fortune nailing jelly to ceilings...

BTW, you forgot the big one; The Apache Longbow. Westland took the US airframe, re-did the avionics and sensor suites and sold it to the British Army. The US is in the process of ugrading its Apache fleet to British standards. http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Fair point. I can actually nail jelly to ceilings though.

And yes I did miss the Longbow - but the Lynx is English through and through.

[Stag]

BTW, you probably never would see a good British tank before your T90 brewed up...

[murphywnjuk]

Us British people do have our successes. I mean, as mentioned we took the AH-64, made it a whole lot better and called it a WAH-64 Apache Longbow (or Longbow Apache....i dont know which).

However in places we are still kind of backwards. Take the Jaguar....how many refits have those things gone through. The MoD seem to take the old Jaguars, put something minor in like a new ejection seat handle.... call it a new aircraft and then say its gonna last another 10 years.

SA80 is now one of the best weapons in the world of its type, just a shame not everyone in the armed forces has the updated version yet. This weapon SHOULD be put into OPF along with standard British troops.

[ran]

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http://www.multimania.com/creol/gifhtml/drapeaux/frapeau6.gif


(Edited by ran at 9:59 pm on Nov. 24, 2001)

[Black Op]

the char de bataille was a better tank than the leclerc :biggrin:

[Black Op]

http://www.wwiitechpubs.com/garage/afv-francaise/afv-fr-mt-char-b1/images/afv-fr-mt-char-b1-tp.jpg

it would kick a T80's ass :biggrin:

[The Blind Sniper]

Pffrt. The T-90 is an overrated scout tank.

Who are all these commie bastards who stick up for it all the time?

The Russian tanks dont even appear on lists of the world's heavy tanks.
Things the likes of the Challanger, Abrams, Leopard2.. outclass russian tanks by so much you cant even compare them.


A story from the gulfwar, I recall.. where an Abrams became stuck in the sand, and unable to free itself...
An Iraqi T72 came along.. shot the Abrams, to no effect, the Abrams then destroyed it. Another T72 came along.. shot the Abrams.. also to no effect, the Abrams destroyed it as well.
A 3rd T72 came along.. behind a nearby sand dune, hiding from the Abrams.. but the crew of the M1A1 spotted its ariel sticking up above the dune, and fired a Sabot right through the dune, killing the 3rd T72.
They tried pulling it out, unsuccessfully, with 3 more Abrams, as I recall.. they ended up taking out some of the tech & blowing the insides with demo charges, to stop anyone from stealing its tech. I think it was the only abrams lost in the gulf war.. or one of few.. none lost to Iraqi tanks.


German tanks from WW2.. the less common ones, like the Panther, the Tiger, the King Tiger (400), and the Hunting Tiger (44) amaze me. I love those tanks.. if they had been mass produced like Shermans they would have won the war for the Germans.
The Russian KV was a nice heavy tank. The T-34 was good.. compared to Shermans & mark VIs.

[Black Op]

i love talking about ww2 tanks http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif, sherman was the most produced tank of ww2 but it was weak as s**t :)m a tiger tank usually took about 6 shermans with it, the allied tanks were hopeless against them, most german tanks were destroyed by the rocket firing typhoons.

The t34 was not as strong as a tiger but it had more manouverability which is a big advantage in the mud off the eastern front, a later model of the t34 came out in late 44 i think with a 85mm cannon, the previous model was only 76mm, when the t34 came out in 42 it obsoleted all tanks previously :biggrin:

i love t34's http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

not that any of this has much to do with ofp http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gifhttp://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gifhttp://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[DVII]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from The Blind Sniper on 8:49 pm on Nov. 24, 2001
Pffrt. The T-90 is an overrated scout tank.

Who are all these commie bastards who stick up for it all the time?

The Russian tanks dont even appear on lists of the world's heavy tanks.
Things the likes of the Challanger, Abrams, Leopard2.. outclass russian tanks by so much you cant even compare them.


A story from the gulfwar, I recall.. where an Abrams became stuck in the sand, and unable to free itself...
An Iraqi T72 came along.. shot the Abrams, to no effect, the Abrams then destroyed it. Another T72 came along.. shot the Abrams.. also to no effect, the Abrams destroyed it as well.
A 3rd T72 came along.. behind a nearby sand dune, hiding from the Abrams.. but the crew of the M1A1 spotted its ariel sticking up above the dune, and fired a Sabot right through the dune, killing the 3rd T72.
They tried pulling it out, unsuccessfully, with 3 more Abrams, as I recall.. they ended up taking out some of the tech & blowing the insides with demo charges, to stop anyone from stealing its tech. I think it was the only abrams lost in the gulf war.. or one of few.. none lost to Iraqi tanks.


German tanks from WW2.. the less common ones, like the Panther, the Tiger, the King Tiger (400), and the Hunting Tiger (44) amaze me. I love those tanks.. if they had been mass produced like Shermans they would have won the war for the Germans.
The Russian KV was a nice heavy tank. The T-34 was good.. compared to Shermans & mark VIs.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

I love Jagdpanthers and they will be in the Invasion1944 mod.

[Aaron Kane]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from The Blind Sniper on 9:49 pm on Nov. 24, 2001
Pffrt. The T-90 is an overrated scout tank

The Russian tanks dont even appear on lists of the world's heavy tanks.


A story from the gulfwar, I recall.. where an Abrams became stuck in the sand, and unable to free itself...
An Iraqi T72 came along.. shot the Abrams, to no effect, the Abrams then destroyed it. Another T72 came along.. shot the Abrams.. also to no effect, the Abrams destroyed it as well.
A 3rd T72 came along.. behind a nearby sand dune, hiding from the Abrams.. but the crew of the M1A1 spotted its ariel sticking up above the dune, and fired a Sabot right through the dune, killing the 3rd T72.
They tried pulling it out, unsuccessfully, with 3 more Abrams, as I recall.. they ended up taking out some of the tech & blowing the insides with demo charges, to stop anyone from stealing its tech. I think it was the only abrams lost in the gulf war.. or one of few.. none lost to Iraqi tanks.

[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>


Shh! Dont say this here, all the T-80,90, whatever lovers will come and say its bulls**t, then proceed to talk about how their tanks can tank 10+ RPG's to the top of the turret and still roll around http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[The Blind Sniper]

Jagdpanthers was another one I was gonna mention.
I love the Jagdtiger especially. It's a meaty tank, by today's standards, with a 128mm gun.
Armor was plain steel of course, would have trouble now. Problem is, they only ever made 44 of them before the war ended. lol

lol, no doubt Kane.
Dont get me wrong, I like the commie tanks.
The thing is, they're in a different league to the Western ones. They just dont compare.
It's like comparing GR to OFP.

Commie tanks are cool, they have their good features. Nice armor. Fast. Lightweight. Big (125mm) gun.

But Western tanks have better armor. And roughly 20 tons more of it.
A small turret doesnt mean much if you can blow it up with a RPG7
Whereas who cares about the Abrams - Leopards - Challangers big turrets.. Unless you've got a TOW or one of those downward firing Bofors missiles, you arent gonna scratch it's paint.



BTW, I really hate that Britney song "Slave 4 U"
If that doesnt scream "2 dolla sucky sucky" I dont know what does. (aside from bad music, bad lyrics, and general lack of talent)
Sorry, it just came on MTV, and it had to be said.

[King Kong]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from The Blind Sniper on 9:49 pm on Nov. 24, 2001
Pffrt. The T-90 is an overrated scout tank.

Who are all these commie bastards who stick up for it all the time?

The Russian tanks dont even appear on lists of the world's heavy tanks.
Things the likes of the Challanger, Abrams, Leopard2.. outclass russian tanks by so much you cant even compare them.


A story from the gulfwar, I recall.. where an Abrams became stuck in the sand, and unable to free itself...
An Iraqi T72 came along.. shot the Abrams, to no effect, the Abrams then destroyed it. Another T72 came along.. shot the Abrams.. also to no effect, the Abrams destroyed it as well.
A 3rd T72 came along.. behind a nearby sand dune, hiding from the Abrams.. but the crew of the M1A1 spotted its ariel sticking up above the dune, and fired a Sabot right through the dune, killing the 3rd T72.
They tried pulling it out, unsuccessfully, with 3 more Abrams, as I recall.. they ended up taking out some of the tech & blowing the insides with demo charges, to stop anyone from stealing its tech. I think it was the only abrams lost in the gulf war.. or one of few.. none lost to Iraqi tanks.


German tanks from WW2.. the less common ones, like the Panther, the Tiger, the King Tiger (400), and the Hunting Tiger (44) amaze me. I love those tanks.. if they had been mass produced like Shermans they would have won the war for the Germans.
The Russian KV was a nice heavy tank. The T-34 was good.. compared to Shermans & mark VIs.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Simple, because Iraq used export versions of a Chinese T-72 copy wich have less armor and no ERA
Gulf-war was mostly airstrikes instead of tank battles
it was the APFSDU round wich is ment for piercing armor and kill the crew in it it, Many Iraqi childeren who played in burnedout tanks have cancer and tank crews who have the "gulf syndrome" it produces a radioactive dust its banned in warfare now

gulf-war was also an US "propaganda" war.

[Scooby]

That story about Russian tank taking 11 or 13 RPG hits is true.

I'm somewhat sure that side hit to M1A2 tank from 112mm Apilas would destroy it or severly damage it.

[King Kong]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Scooby on 11:31 pm on Nov. 24, 2001
That story about Russian tank taking 11 or 13 RPG hits is true.

I'm somewhat sure that side hit to M1A2 tank from 112mm Apilas would destroy it or severly damage it. [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

It was in Cheyna a couple of Chechen rebels who were fireing 13 RPG's against a T80U or T80UK i can't remember

[Krechet1]

Jagd Tiger was actually a s**tty tank unless used in very specific conditions (very flat terrain and good 2km between you and the enemy). Jagd Tiger had very little sloped armor, no rotating turret, very unmaneuvrable (there were cases of Soviet infantrymen destroying those beasts with well placed Molotovs), and very prone to side and rear hits. T-34 could simply circle around Jagd tiger if gotten close enough and plink shots at it untill it brewed up (same applies to "normal" Panzer VI ausf E btw, very slow, unmaneuvereable and unreliable).

Soviets were always wondering why Germans went on with developing "wonder" tanks when upgraded Mark IV in sufficent numbers could do the job just fine. Panther was also a respected tank on the eastern front, but then again it was a direct ripoff from T-34 concept (with beefed up armour and added reliability problems). By the time Panther came out, T-34-85 dominated the battle field.

those who still think German tanks were "holy", read those documents (Actual WW2 reports):

http://history.vif2.ru/library/battles/battles18.html

http://history.vif2.ru/library/battles/battle16.html

http://history.vif2.ru/library/battles/battle1.html

Germans did destroy 5 times more tanks, but there were very few T-34s, KV-1 and JS tanks amongst them. Most of those destroyed were older T-28s and such during first 2 years of the war. On later stages kill ratio was on Soviet side (in both men and equipment).

[Stag]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from The Blind Sniper on 9:49 pm on Nov. 24, 2001



I think it was the only abrams lost in the gulf war.. or one of few.. none lost to Iraqi tanks.


[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

This is an official account of the battle of 73 Easting; I dispels a few myths about the Gulf War. You'll find out what the Combat performance of the Abrams is realisically; It isn't a super tank.

Er, actually, thinking about it, it is..

No info about Challenger losses, though. but this has got my interest...

http://www.mideasti.org/articles/bourque.html

Oh, BTW, The people there called it "Fright Night..." the worst losses to the Iraqi's in a single action in the whole campaign.

(Edited by Wardog at 12:31 am on Nov. 25, 2001)

[Aaron Kane]

Baah... the Challengers didnt take much punishment from our A-10's http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif



J/k.... J/k....

[The Blind Sniper]

Or the Warrior the stupid americans blew up.

Partly fault of the British, the Americans radioed and asked if there were any friendlies in the area, and they said there wasnt.
But still.. a warrior is pretty distinctive.

Pffrt. It's easy for a tank to take that many RPG hits, RPGs suck. Read Blackhawk Down?
RPGs on the wrong angle would bounce off a Trabant.

Scooby - You said that the T80 takes 13 hits, or whatever.. then quote a different kind of RPG to blow up an Abrams? That's somewhat misleading, dont you think?
I doubt it. A 125mm sabot has trouble penetrating an abrams.. even from the side.

From the top, however, is a different story.


All tanks are s**t. They need constant maintaining, which is a side where the Russians win. They also need lots of gas. Which is where the Russians lose.

Also - I didnt say the JagdTiger was great... I just said I liked it. It's a nice tank in Close Combat 2, lol.

And Queen Kong - Good for them. Depleted Uranium is cheap, and effective. It gets rid of a small part of nuclear waste. Oh d*amn. The people we're trying to SHOOT might get sick from the radiation from the bullet.
f**k I hate all that.. no lead bullets, they might get poisoned. You just shot them!! Who cares if they get lead poisoning. Same with shotguns, hollowpoints, etc. God. Fuss fuss, politically correct bulls**t. We have to kill them humanly. Pffrt.

[madmike]

the black eagle would loose against an air rifle

[Aaron Kane]

Hmm... I dont know Blind Sniper. I can see how someone could confuse a Warrior with a BMP, or a Challenger for a T-55.

When you have that many aircraft and vehicles buzzing around a big ass sandbox, somebody is going to get sand thrown into their eyes.

[DVII]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from The Blind Sniper on 10:02 pm on Nov. 24, 2001
Jagdpanthers was another one I was gonna mention.
I love the Jagdtiger especially. It's a meaty tank, by today's standards, with a 128mm gun.
Armor was plain steel of course, would have trouble now. Problem is, they only ever made 44 of them before the war ended. lol

lol, no doubt Kane.
Dont get me wrong, I like the commie tanks.
The thing is, they're in a different league to the Western ones. They just dont compare.
It's like comparing GR to OFP.

Commie tanks are cool, they have their good features. Nice armor. Fast. Lightweight. Big (125mm) gun.

But Western tanks have better armor. And roughly 20 tons more of it.
A small turret doesnt mean much if you can blow it up with a RPG7
Whereas who cares about the Abrams - Leopards - Challangers big turrets.. Unless you've got a TOW or one of those downward firing Bofors missiles, you arent gonna scratch it's paint.



BTW, I really hate that Britney song "Slave 4 U"
If that doesnt scream "2 dolla sucky sucky" I dont know what does. (aside from bad music, bad lyrics, and general lack of talent)
Sorry, it just came on MTV, and it had to be said.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

No offence man but there wer 70 Jagdtigers built, maybe you mean only 44 with a 128mm gun, they made some Jagdtigers with 88mm(PaK 43/3) guns because they wer out of 128mm( PaK 44).

And i love the Jagdpanther: 46 tons with a max speed of 55 kmh (same speed as a T34) It could take out any tank it encounterd (It took 1 shot to the side to take out a IS2). Sometimes single or small groups of Jagdpanthers could hold up Alied armored advance for considerable periods.
Only 382 wer built and even 40 years after its design would still have been a good weapon.

[Krechet1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from The Blind Sniper on 1:13 am on Nov. 25, 2001
Or the Warrior the stupid americans blew up.

Partly fault of the British, the Americans radioed and asked if there were any friendlies in the area, and they said there wasnt.
But still.. a warrior is pretty distinctive.

Pffrt. It's easy for a tank to take that many RPG hits, RPGs suck. Read Blackhawk Down?
RPGs on the wrong angle would bounce off a Trabant.

Scooby - You said that the T80 takes 13 hits, or whatever.. then quote a different kind of RPG to blow up an Abrams? That's somewhat misleading, dont you think?
I doubt it. A 125mm sabot has trouble penetrating an abrams.. even from the side.

From the top, however, is a different story.


All tanks are s**t. They need constant maintaining, which is a side where the Russians win. They also need lots of gas. Which is where the Russians lose.

Also - I didnt say the JagdTiger was great... I just said I liked it. It's a nice tank in Close Combat 2, lol.

And Queen Kong - Good for them. Depleted Uranium is cheap, and effective. It gets rid of a small part of nuclear waste. Oh d*amn. The people we're trying to SHOOT might get sick from the radiation from the bullet.
f**k I hate all that.. no lead bullets, they might get poisoned. You just shot them!! Who cares if they get lead poisoning. Same with shotguns, hollowpoints, etc. God. Fuss fuss, politically correct bulls**t. We have to kill them humanly. Pffrt.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

What RPGs are you talking about? RPG-7 is a great tool in close combat (and for taking out doors in urban fighting). But saying RPG-29 is s**t is a little ignorant. Or famous Shmel', which produces practically a mini nuke effect right out of a tube. RPG development didnt get stuck on the Shaitan trube (RPG-7). But RPG-7 is still great for lobbing grenades into buildings and such and against light armour.


As for gas, Russian tanks need twice less gas than any NATO tank. And they can run on practically anything without worrying about clogging the combustion chamber or air filters. Economically for a long term warfare Russian tanks are way to go (that's why middle eastern countries dont want American or Western European equipment: they are constantly at war and cannot afford their tanks to break every 100km).

[NVA Killer]

whats so different about the WAH64 and AH64 that makes it better?
<a href="http://www.voodoo.cz/ah64/wah64.html

what" target="_blank">http://www.voodoo.cz/ah64/wah64.html

what</a> ever modifications made was done by boeing so says this site.

(Edited by NVA Killer at 8:05 am on Nov. 25, 2001)

[Scooby]

"Pffrt. It's easy for a tank to take that many RPG hits, RPGs suck. Read Blackhawk Down?
RPGs on the wrong angle would bounce off a Trabant.

Scooby - You said that the T80 takes 13 hits, or whatever.. then quote a different kind of RPG to blow up an Abrams? That's somewhat misleading, dont you think?
I doubt it. A 125mm sabot has trouble penetrating an abrams.. even from the side.

From the top, however, is a different story. "


I would say that chechens were using RPG-7's or LAW look alike RPG's to destroy that tank. I dont know and cant remember what type of the tank it was which was destroyed.

As far as I know there are different, less modern and more modern ammunition for RPG-7. Basic ammo would be about as effective as 66mm LAW round? (not claiming that I would know too much about RPG's)

I mentioned Apilas taking out M1 tank because you compared damage done on tanks by taking weapon from least effective end and almost most effective end totally forgetting weapons from the middle.

I'm certain that Apilas would be enough to harm it from side or rear sectors.

[Stag]

Doh! you're right.

Lost the source of the duff info, so can't even inform them they're talking bollocks.

[The Blind Sniper]

I meant the RPG7 vs tanks.
I wouldnt mind a RPG7 for shooting at my neighbours house, though.

I was mostly referring to how the Russians cant afford gas for their tanks, not the actual gas consumption of the tanks... lol

I know a guy with a T-80 :biggrin: I'm itchin to take it for a cruise!

[Hawkeye]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from NVA Killer on 7:01 am on Nov. 25, 2001
whats so different about the WAH64 and AH64 that makes it better?
<a href="http://www.voodoo.cz/ah64/wah64.html

what" target="_blank">http://www.voodoo.cz/ah64/wah64.html

what</a> ever modifications made was done by boeing so says this site.

(Edited by NVA Killer at 8:05 am on Nov. 25, 2001)
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>


The WAH-64 has a Merlin engine in it, also, I believe it uses TOW's rather than Hellfires. It's about tine the British Army got a proper attack chopper. I cant believe the actually use Gazells in the attack role. They use the Lynx too, but it's cool.

[NVA Killer]

isn't the lynx fast though? like one of the fastest helicopters or something?

[Krull SGC]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from NVA Killer on 8:01 am on Nov. 25, 2001
whats so different about the WAH64 and AH64 that makes it better?
<a href="http://www.voodoo.cz/ah64/wah64.html

what" target="_blank">http://www.voodoo.cz/ah64/wah64.html

what</a> ever modifications made was done by boeing so says this site.

(Edited by NVA Killer at 8:05 am on Nov. 25, 2001)
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

The only modifications I know of that GNK-Westland have made to the UK Apache are to the engines, in fact they have replaced the standard ones with nice new, and much more powerful Rolls Royce Turbomeca engines. Though Hawkeye, according to Westlands own page, it still uses the Hellfire.

And as for the Lynx NVA Killer, it is indeed the holder of the Absolute World Speed Record for helicopters, having achieved a top speed of 400.87 km/h in 1986. However the Lynx in question used a special BERP rotorblade system, and it has never been implemented in Combat aircraft.

Still the Lynx is a pretty cool copter, though it serves the same purpose as the Huey and I love the Huey, especially the UH-1N Twin Huey Gunship, two door mounted machine guns, and two side mounted rocket launchers, and more power than a standard single engine Huey, that thing is a wolf in sheeps' clothing.

[Satchel]

"I have heard of a tank class challenger or somthing like that. It can whip a T-80 pretty quick."

Hehehe, this is how the original Thread started...
As always the thread goes wild once equipment is involved, especially true for tanks, but i like it.
We now had everything in this thread, from russian and german WWII tanks, Fairchild manufacturing plant, Warrior look-a-like clone to the M2/M3 Bradley, the british version of the AH-64 (WAH-64), RPG-7´s- over to the Lynx helicopter....i think we covered it all.

[King Kong]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Scooby on 1:47 pm on Nov. 25, 2001
"Pffrt. It's easy for a tank to take that many RPG hits, RPGs suck. Read Blackhawk Down?
RPGs on the wrong angle would bounce off a Trabant.

Scooby - You said that the T80 takes 13 hits, or whatever.. then quote a different kind of RPG to blow up an Abrams? That's somewhat misleading, dont you think?
I doubt it. A 125mm sabot has trouble penetrating an abrams.. even from the side.

From the top, however, is a different story. "


I would say that chechens were using RPG-7's or LAW look alike RPG's to destroy that tank. I dont know and cant remember what type of the tank it was which was destroyed.

As far as I know there are different, less modern and more modern ammunition for RPG-7. Basic ammo would be about as effective as 66mm LAW round? (not claiming that I would know too much about RPG's)

I mentioned Apilas taking out M1 tank because you compared damage done on tanks by taking weapon from least effective end and almost most effective end totally forgetting weapons from the middle.

I'm certain that Apilas would be enough to harm it from side or rear sectors.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

The M72 LAW uses a 66mm SHELL wich is ment for bunkerbusting and against light infantry

The RPG-7 is a different story it uses a 40mm HE rocket propelled grenade wich is far more effective then the LAW, LAW is a throw away weapon

[NVA Killer]

lets get a LAW 80mm http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Scooby]

66mm LAW we have has shaped charge... I'm pretty much sure that it is the same in the US LAW.

You were correct that it is used against bunkers but it is not used against infantry. It is used against APC's, IFV's and other lightly armoured targets.

Only reason I could see RPG-7 being more effective is possibility to use different ammunition for it if available. Though it weights alot compared to LAW's and in theory you would have to carry it around after you have used all the ammunition which isnt the case with LAW unless you want to get it reloaded.

(Edited by Scooby at 10:42 pm on Nov. 25, 2001)

[Aaron Kane]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Satchel on 8:44 pm on Nov. 25, 2001
"I have heard of a tank class challenger or somthing like that. It can whip a T-80 pretty quick."

Hehehe, this is how the original Thread started...
As always the thread goes wild once equipment is involved, especially true for tanks, but i like it.
We now had everything in this thread, from russian and german WWII tanks, Fairchild manufacturing plant, Warrior look-a-like clone to the M2/M3 Bradley, the british version of the AH-64 (WAH-64), RPG-7´s- over to the Lynx helicopter....i think we covered it all.



[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Hey now, leave the folks at the former Fairchild plant out of this! http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[NVA Killer]

http://images.janes.com/micro_sites/paris/images/image_lib2/0076751.jpg
http://www.arrcmedia.com/New%20web%202/Pictures/Pictures/kfor/YUGTANKS.JPG

warriors

[Krull SGC]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Satchel on 8:44 pm on Nov. 25, 2001
"I have heard of a tank class challenger or somthing like that. It can whip a T-80 pretty quick."

Hehehe, this is how the original Thread started...
As always the thread goes wild once equipment is involved, especially true for tanks, but i like it.
We now had everything in this thread, from russian and german WWII tanks, Fairchild manufacturing plant, Warrior look-a-like clone to the M2/M3 Bradley, the british version of the AH-64 (WAH-64), RPG-7´s- over to the Lynx helicopter....i think we covered it all.



[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Thats the beauty of the OFP Forums Satchel, I consider it to be military brain-storming at its best, you get ideas from the whole spectrum, even though some can be considered very stupid and childish, and they invariably start the flames burning.

[Greg Dragunovski]

Hope you guys enjoy the comparison of the CHALLENGER2 and the PT-91 "TWARDY".....

CHALLENGER2 DESCRIPTION:

In 1974, Iran commanded(ordered) to the Royal Ordnance Factory de Leeds 125 Shir 1 and 1225 Shir 2. Shir 1 was essentially , in fact, one of the last alterations of Chieftain. The British army intended then to replace Chieftain by a German-British machine, but this one not having exceeded the stage(stadium) of project, United Kingdom realized its own project, baptized MBT-70. With the fall of Chah of Iran, the enormous commands(orders) of this country were cancelled, before the deliveries were not able to begin, although in this time Shir 1 is in production for the Royal Ordnance Factory de Leeds. Jordan commanded(ordered) afterward 278 MBT Khalid, who were practically identical to Shir1, and the deliveries began in 1981. They are at the moment ended. In 1980, the British ministry of the Defence announced that the project of the MBT-80 had been abandoned not only because it turned out too dear(expensive), but also because its date of starting was vague. In its place, an initial command(order) of 237 Challenger was crossed(spent) in Royal Ordnance Factory. It was about Shir 1 modified to adapt them to the European climate. The first copies were put back(handed) to the British army in March, 1983, and four regiments in post(post office) on the Rhine were equipped with this tank. In the middle of the years eighty, the Challenger will be endowed with a system of aim Pilkington EP (known also under the name of Therman Observation and Gunery System) which will allow the tank to improve its capacities of commitment and acquisition of targets in all weathers and of day as of night. The first produced vehicles were provided with a standard standard(cannon) L11A5 120 mm, realized by the Royal Ordnance Factory de Leeds, but it(he) was replaced by a new standard(cannon) of high technology, which was studied by Royal Armament Research and Development Establishment ( RARDE) of Strong Halstead. This standard(cannon), in better worked steel, possesses a new breech and can throw(launch) missiles having a bigger muzzle velocity, and this fact endowed with a capacity of penetration superior to that of the common(current) missiles. He can throw(launch) also, quite as L11A5, missile APFSDS of the Royale Ordnance Factory de Birley, capable of drilling all the known armour platings. A vehicle of repair was developed according to the frame of the Challenger, whereas at the same time, certain number of Chieftain was provided with a hydraulic crane intended to allow them to change  the driving block of a Challenger on the ground; So equipped, these armored cars will receive the naming ARRV (Armoured Repair and Recovery vehicle, " armored cars of recovery and repair "). There is also a Chieftain affected person of bridges which is also useful by the Challenger.  
Armament:
1 standard(cannon) of 120 mm, a coaxial machine gun of 7,62 mm, and a machine gun AA of 7,62 mm  Crew:
4 men(people)
Armour plating:
?
Weight:
65 000 kg  
User countries:
Challenger 1: user Countries: United Kingdom, Jordan, Iran.
Challenger 2: user Countries: United Kingdom, Oman
Speed:
56 kph
Autonomy:
450 km
Equipment:
-

PT-91 "TWARDY'' DESCRIPTION:

PT-91 Twardy This Polish variant of the T-72 has a number of improvements over the earlier T-72M1. The major improvements include: Polish-developed explosive reactive armor Type ERAWA-1; four laser warning receivers, which warn the crew if they are being targeted by a laser rangefinder or designator; new computerized fire control system, with thermal sight; new passive night sights; improved automotive components including 850 hp engine, rubber bushed tracks, and a modern fire detection and suppression system.

For several years Poland builds Russian armored cars under license, as the main tank T-72 and its variants, for national custom(usage), as well as for the export. Further to a development of the tank T-72, is appeared a new version, knew under the name of PT-91, who also has as reference name (hard) Twardy. The first prototype of the vehicle was ended in 1992, and a first series of copies were delivered to the Polish army. The configuration of PT-91 is identical to T-72 with the driver in front centre, turret in the center of the hull(shell), the engine and the transmission system behind. The gunner sits to the left in the turret and the leader of vehicle to the right. The turret can revolve on 360 ° with the possibility in rise of - 6 ° in + 13 °. The improvements of equipments with regard to T-72, are a new reagent armour plating developed by Poland, placed in front of the hull(shell) and of the turret, a system of defence against aims laser, a system behaviour(canal) of shot assisted by computer, a series of 12 throws(launches) smoke grenades placed to the left and to the right of the turret, the armour plating strengthened on the bottom of the hull(shell), and the more powerful engine. A machine gun of 12,7 mm rose on the right hatch on the roof of the turret. The standard(cannon) has a thermic muff and a sluice of smoke. The train of movement of the vehicle is protected by patches of reagent armour plating.
Armament:
1 standard(cannon) of 125 mm, 1 coaxial machine gun of 7,62 mm, 1 antiaircraft machine gun of 12,7 mm
Crew:
3 men(people)
Armour plating:
?
Weight:
45 300 kg
User countries:
Poland
Speed:
60 kph
Autonomy:
650 km
Equipment:NBC protection system, rangefinder laser, fire control

REMEMBER,A TANK CAN BE "BETTER" BUT IF THE CREW SUCKS THEN IT'S PRETTY EASY TO TAKE IT OUT OF ACTION-challenger2 or pt-91 destroyed by a t-34LOL;)

JUST WANTED TO KNOW HOW TO PUT IMAGES ON THIS FORUM(HTML IS OFF)

[Badgerboy]

A Warrior which had a huge recognition flag on the back, specifically because we knew you sodding Yanks were cruising round. I'm in the RAF, training as a pilot, and the Americans (respected, and a bloody good laugh) DO have a bad rep for friendly fire incidents. (Kosovo/Gulf).

Oh, and pls don't joke about our guys being toasted by A10's. I find it a bit distasteful. -Thanks

[Badgerboy]

Errr, see page 5 to get a clue what I was talking about.

[PV]

If I am looking at the correct pic for a warrior, I can see how it could be confused with a Russian tank at distance or at a glance.

[pzvg]

Mistake nothing, At low level, moving around 300KIAS,
you can id something as man-made in the time you have to shoot, period.
That's why they ask if there are friendlies in the AO, an armored box is an Armored box on first glance.

And let's not be too hard on the USAF folks, the only reason your nations aren't known for bombing the wrong target is due to a relative lack of bombing of any kind whatsoever in recent history, dig?

P.S. 66mm LAW is old crap, same RPG7V, neither one is worth a d*amn against ANY MBT built after 1979.
Oh and Russian tanks do have better gas mileage, trouble is the tracks don't last long enough to make that mean much, although they're improving in that field too.

[VIIL Max]

Challanger? I think we are forgetting the one that is for sure the best "west tank": Merkawa III of Israeli Army. It's a powrful tank heavily armed and... for what I know, the only tank able to survive to almost everything. Despite it has been used in many war actions it has never been perforated... and this one is the best warranty we can have I guess...

[NVA Killer]

the guys wasted by the A10 in the gulf wondered into its kill box, not really a way to tell who is enemy or friendly.

[Aaron Kane]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Badgerboy on 5:48 am on Nov. 26, 2001
Errr, see page 5 to get a clue what I was talking about.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

*Pulls out collar*


Tough crowd.... tough crowd.... http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Sorry, I didnt mean to offend anyone with that post http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[Greg Dragunovski]

....hmmmmm a Jewish tank....Israel is not a Western country....they are arabs with diff. faces LOL.Jewish equipment is such d*amn crap that a man armed with a 9mm pistol could destroy a whole platoon of jewish KOSHER TANKS!

I don't see why you love the challenger so much but hey it's your choice OHH and the guy who talked about the black eagle.....many experts say that the Black Eagle is the "best" tank(everything is "tip-top")in the world.

AND GUYS PLZ RESPOND THIS TIME lol

[Greg Dragunovski]

no it's not crap(last post,jewish tanks) because all they have(99.9%) is stuff from the......uhmhmh AMERICANS(rifles,APCs,tanks,choppers,planes)for example:m-16,abrams,f-15,f-16................and if they wouldn't have got those things from the Americans then there would be no Israel at all after the conflict between the israelis and arabs......

[King Kong]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Greg Dragunovski on 4:12 pm on Nov. 27, 2001
no it's not crap(last post,jewish tanks) because all they have(99.9%) is stuff from the......uhmhmh AMERICANS(rifles,APCs,tanks,choppers,planes)for example:m-16,abrams,f-15,f-16................and if they wouldn't have got those things from the Americans then there would be no Israel at all after the conflict between the israelis and arabs......[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

No, they copy and improve American things

[Stinger]

look at it this way the US and Russia Have enough nukes to destroy the WORLD 6 times over.... kinda makes tanks look punny huh?

nukes=terrible

also alot of the stuff given to them are given by the US, but what they do is modify it to their likings and then sometimes they take the original, modify it, then build the modified versions themselves.

[Greg Dragunovski]

Ok, first of all, Israel gets stuff from Americans because 99.9% of the American(U.S.A not Canada) governement is jewish(donald RUMSFELD for example !JEW!)Almost all of the ministers are jewish and the only ppl that are not jewish are Colin Powel(l?),that black chick and "Curious" George W Bush.And as you know when ministers group up then you are sure that the PRES becomes a puppet at their will.AND WE ALL KNOW JEWS "help" JEWS KILL ARABS.........VOILA! IT IS MORE SERIOUS THAN IT LOOKS HERE!

Second of all NUKES can't be used anyway and anywhere you want!If, for example, the USA nukes Afghanistan then it is 100% sure that Iraq or Iran (or maybe even China or Russia) will respond with a nuke of their own.Iran or Iraq(yes they have nukes) would respond with a nuke because USA is their #1 enemy and they attacked an arab country full of civilians(duhhh!) and Russia or China could respond with a nuke because a nuke on a country normally means a large WAR(WWIII for example) and don't think for a second that Poutin(with extra cheese...poutine=quebec food lol)
or Mr.Ping Pong(CHINA'S BIG DADDY)wouldn't attack the USA if they had an excuse...........................GOODBYE MY FELLOW READERS

[NVA Killer]

saying 99.9% of the US government is jewish is just bull s**t, alot of them are not jewish, such as people in the congress.

[Badgerboy]

I see Zionism is still alive and well in the US Government, and your tax dollars are being put to work. In fairness though, the US gives a #### of a lot of equipment and funding, and Israel keeps 'b*tchslapping' the US in return.

Frankly the hardline, 'crusading' goverment is pretty worrying. The Minister that got topped recently, wanted to kick all the Palestinians off the disputed land with force, not to mention his other deranged ideas.

Hmm.... in need some extra Lebensraum do we? (Look it up)

[Greg Dragunovski]

HAHAHAHAH IT'S NOT BS IT'S THE TRUTH EVEN IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO ACCEPT IT..............................IT'S YOUR CHOICE OH YEAH I WAS WRONG ON THE OTHER HAND BECAUSE IT'S 99.9999999% JEWISH......MY BAD LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

LEBENSRAUM HAHAHAHAHAAHHA YEAH THAT'S PRETTY JEWISH TO ME *NVA KILLER: NO IT'S NOT GUYS!!!HUKHUK.....OHH AND NVA RAPED USA'S ASS(also true do not deny it)*

[Badgerboy]

That was frankly, bewildering, if not hard to read. What point are you trying to make?

Do you know what 'Lebensraum' means? Hint : It was quite popular in the 30/40's.

[LeperMessiah]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Greg Dragunovski on 4:23 am on Nov. 28, 2001
HAHAHAHAH IT'S NOT BS IT'S THE TRUTH EVEN IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO ACCEPT IT..............................IT'S YOUR CHOICE OH YEAH I WAS WRONG ON THE OTHER HAND BECAUSE IT'S 99.9999999% JEWISH......MY BAD LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

LEBENSRAUM HAHAHAHAHAAHHA YEAH THAT'S PRETTY JEWISH TO ME *NVA KILLER: NO IT'S NOT GUYS!!!HUKHUK.....OHH AND NVA RAPED USA'S ASS(also true do not deny it)*
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
<span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>YOU=f**kING IDIOT</span>

[Krechet1]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from LeperMessiah on 5:13 am on Nov. 28, 2001
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Greg Dragunovski on 4:23 am on Nov. 28, 2001
HAHAHAHAH IT'S NOT BS IT'S THE TRUTH EVEN IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO ACCEPT IT..............................IT'S YOUR CHOICE OH YEAH I WAS WRONG ON THE OTHER HAND BECAUSE IT'S 99.9999999% JEWISH......MY BAD LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

LEBENSRAUM HAHAHAHAHAAHHA YEAH THAT'S PRETTY JEWISH TO ME *NVA KILLER: NO IT'S NOT GUYS!!!HUKHUK.....OHH AND NVA RAPED USA'S ASS(also true do not deny it)*
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
<span style='font-size:17pt;line-height:100%'>YOU=f**kING IDIOT</span>[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

indeed....

[Stinger]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Greg Dragunovski on 8:10 am on Nov. 28, 2001
Ok, first of all, Israel gets stuff from Americans because 99.9% of the American(U.S.A not Canada) governement is jewish(donald RUMSFELD for example !JEW!)Almost all of the ministers are jewish and the only ppl that are not jewish are Colin Powel(l?),that black chick and "Curious" George W Bush.And as you know when ministers group up then you are sure that the PRES becomes a puppet at their will.AND WE ALL KNOW JEWS "help" JEWS KILL ARABS.........VOILA! IT IS MORE SERIOUS THAN IT LOOKS HERE!

Second of all NUKES can't be used anyway and anywhere you want!If, for example, the USA nukes Afghanistan then it is 100% sure that Iraq or Iran (or maybe even China or Russia) will respond with a nuke of their own.Iran or Iraq(yes they have nukes) would respond with a nuke because USA is their #1 enemy and they attacked an arab country full of civilians(duhhh!) and Russia or China could respond with a nuke because a nuke on a country normally means a large WAR(WWIII for example) and don't think for a second that Poutin(with extra cheese...poutine=quebec food lol)
or Mr.Ping Pong(CHINA'S BIG DADDY)wouldn't attack the USA if they had an excuse...........................GOODBYE MY FELLOW READERS
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>


Amazing how a total idiot can get the point and miss it at the same time isn't it?

And one more thing about the ragging on the Jews, I thought we showed the Nazis they had to play nice or die... to bad I guess we missed a few.

[Greg Dragunovski]

YOU DIDN'T GET IT DID YOU!?!?!I SAID THAT PRES BUSH IS A GOd*amn PUPPET WHO CAN'T DO s**t WITHOUT THE APPROVAL OF THE MINISTERS........IF HE DOES HE IS SURE TO LOSE ON THE NEXT ELECTION....OR GET BOOTED OUT SOMEWAY BEFORE THAT AND YOU KNOW HOW THE MINISTERS CAN DO THAT ........BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS WHO HAVE SO MUCH MONEY THAT IT COMES OUT THEIR ASS AND EVEYBODY KNOWS THAT THE GREEN STUFF CONTROLS EVERYTHING......

AND WHO THE #### ARE YOU TO SAY THAT I AM A NAZI........

AND MY OTHER POINT WAS THAT THE NORTH VIETNAMESE ARMY AND THE VIET-CONG RAPED USA's ASS AND THAT THE GERMANS ALSO KICKED ASS SO STFU.
AMERICANS WHO THINK AND SAY THAT THEY ARE THE WINNERS OF WWII SUCK d**k
BECAUSE YOU WERE NOT THE ONLY ONES DEAD FIGHTING SO AGAIN PLZ STFU
IF YOU RESPECT PPL WHO FOUGHT TO SAVE FREAKING HUMANITY!

[Greg Dragunovski]

OH AND SORRY FOR NOT KNOWING CRAPPY AMERICAN SLANG!!!!! SORRY FOR NOT KNOWING WHAT OR WHO LEBENSRAUM IS!!! SORRY I BETTER EXCUSE MYSELF TO THE LITTLE BABIES THAT CAN ONLY SAY YOU FUC KING IDIOT!!!

[pzvg]

Lebensraum, german literally "living room" or breathing space, the pretext of which (pretext, big word, look it up) is why Hitler invaded Russia, surprised even an ass like you didn't know that.
As for some of you's definite anti Zionist leanings, If you so convinced they suck, go take the Isreali's on, I'd love for you to learn what so many dips**ts before you have.

And as for your little dig against my service vs the little yellow people, I'd gladly give 'em a rematch, only this time we get to use all of our power in an attempt to win,
Not playing political pattycake, should be interesting, if rather short.
BTW greg (gregor) Pretty obivious you hate the US, So from me to you, just go play in traffic, that is, if you actually live in a country that can afford enough cars to HAVE traffic.

[The Jub-Jub Bird]

Greg Dragunovski, can we please keep you racist views and comments out of our forum please. I am not one of any of the groups you have slagged off in this thread, but it saddens me that some people can be so offensive to fellow human beings.

So you have a problem with the Jews? Whats the problem? Some of them happen to have more money than you? Is that a hint of jealousy I note in your tone?

So what if the Isreales buy alot of their equipment from the USA? Its good stuff, if they have the cash then go for it, the stuff is of good quality and specification and when they advance them, they do a d*amned good job at it.

I also would have to point out to you that they do make some of their own equipment (eg Galil, Desert Eagle, Uzi) and they certainly have the best airforce in the world.

And all the other stuff you have said was totally unneccessary, the Americans do love themselves, I agree. But their patriotism and confidence is something that has to be admired, not shunned.

The world could be alot worse, let it not be you that causes anymore hurt or anguish.

[NVA Killer]

some of you may disagree, but im just stating what ive read, but ive read and heard US conflicted more casualties on the NVA/VC then they did on us.

and i expect some one to ask "then why did the US leave Vietnam?" well simple really, moral. People back in the US were not happy with the war, to many protests, yada yada, same with the russians during the afghan war. so you point where the NVA raped the US up the ass is just total nonsense.

[The Jub-Jub Bird]

Not only morality, but the US wasn't making significant advances on in Vietnam. The terrain was like nothing that the US troops had trained for. Many involved had never seen any combat, let alone have to fight a hidden enemy and the gurrialla tactics emplyed by the NVA overwhelmed the US troops.

I have no statistics for you. But this is not the point. The arguement does not belong on this thread. Or indeed this forum.

[NVA Killer]

well jub jub, some were trained in the terrian, well atleast special ops, before being sent into Nam, alot were sent to Panama for jungle training. also not alot of them have seen war because...they were drafties, the average US civilian has never seen battle lol.

[Stag]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Greg Dragunovski on 3:03 pm on Nov. 28, 2001
OH AND SORRY FOR NOT KNOWING CRAPPY AMERICAN SLANG!!!!! SORRY FOR NOT KNOWING WHAT OR WHO LEBENSRAUM IS!!! SORRY I BETTER EXCUSE MYSELF TO THE LITTLE BABIES THAT CAN ONLY SAY YOU FUC KING IDIOT!!!
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Okay, you nausiating little specimen, listen up.

All you are able to prove is that you are a totally immature pillock. You haven't  an ounce of evidence to back up any of your  statements, So why the #### bother when anybody that can use a mouse can disprove anything you say? You are making a fool, of yourself, and the thing that REALLY pisses me off is that you appear to be of Polish decent, I find you personally embarrasing, because so am I, and to me, there is nothing so embarrasing to a nation as a racist.  You are doing nothing for the reputation of my heritage. Read and learn.

The Merkava is arguably one of the best tank designs in the world, and owes nothing to any previous designs of either the East or West. Nobody else has got anything quite like it. The T-91, Jeez, you can't even get the designation of Poland's native AFV right, appears to be a product improved T-80, nothing more, and as such should never be deployed by any country against western vehicles, unless they want their soldiers to live short, exciting lives. The reactive armour of which you boast would have almost ZERO effect against an incoming sabot round, and the 125mm gun starts putting rounds into the dirt at 2.5 klicks. The missile may be a threat, but it's unlikely you would just be meeting tanks; You don't have to beat the tank, you would have to beat the Army.

Now if you want an intelligent argument, I suggest you go and check your facts before hitting the keyboard. If you are going to reply with your usual crap, go ahead; make yourself out to be an even bigger pratt.

Oh, yes, And Liebensraum is a soundbyte from your best mate Hitler. It's got sod all to do ith the USA. Was the only education you ever had called obnoxious 101?

(Edited by Wardog at 2:46 am on Nov. 29, 2001)

[residuum]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from The Jub Jub Bird on 4:38 pm on Nov. 28, 2001
And all the other stuff you have said was totally unneccessary, the Americans do love themselves, I agree. But their patriotism and confidence is something that has to be admired, not shunned.
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>

Go USA, winners of WWII. You see, USA won because the Italians, Germans, and then Japanese gave up.

[Arkan Raznatovic]

Ok, i was just reading some of the comments on this forum and i can see that some people don't know real life. First, the Jews : (it's not racism, it's life and past generations' expirence) they are the nation that is the incarnation of evil. I don't know where all of you reside but from where I come from, they caused a lot of pain and suffering. They are people that will sell their mothers to protect their lives. They were the #1 informants to Nazis during WW2. They have killed millions. But no one will ever talk about this. He will be called anti-Semitic right away(as probably will i, but i'm proud of it). Second, the PT-91 : it's a formidable machine. All the talk from "Wardog" about its performance is based on no expirence at all. And, "residuum", USA didnt win WW2, they just steped in when everybody was down, to boost their economy(which wasnt too great before WW2). And you want to bomb Afghans? I would like to see you fighting man to man with one of them(No, i got no warm feeling for them). You just a coward, no offence. The problem with USA is that they think bombing can solve everything. They too afraid of real combat, they fear casulties. I was waiting for you ,"residuum", in Serbia, you never showed up, that's a shame...

P.S. and for the tanks, it's usless to compare them, compare the crews.

[Havelock]

Okay, this is a (slightly hypcritical) plea to all ... forum members with a nodding acquaintance with sanity to not look in thes topic again, don't post to it and consider it dead. Or at least quarantined. Someone earlier said that this was a good example of an OFP thread, as it covered many different aspects of military topic and history. Unfortunately it then degenerated into another common theme(s) of these forums: Xenophobia, racism, anti-semetism and my-125mm-gun-is-bigger-than-your-120mm-gun-ism.



Please.

[LeperMessiah]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Greg Dragunovski on 2:58 pm on Nov. 28, 2001
YOU DIDN'T GET IT DID YOU!?!?!I SAID THAT PRES BUSH IS A GOd*amn PUPPET WHO CAN'T DO s**t WITHOUT THE APPROVAL OF THE MINISTERS........IF HE DOES HE IS SURE TO LOSE ON THE NEXT ELECTION....OR GET BOOTED OUT SOMEWAY BEFORE THAT AND YOU KNOW HOW THE MINISTERS CAN DO THAT ........BECAUSE THEY ARE JEWS WHO HAVE SO MUCH MONEY THAT IT COMES OUT THEIR ASS AND EVEYBODY KNOWS THAT THE GREEN STUFF CONTROLS EVERYTHING......

AND WHO THE #### ARE YOU TO SAY THAT I AM A NAZI........
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Arkan Raznatovic
Ok, i was just reading some of the comments on this forum and i can see that some people don't know real life. First, the Jews : (it's not racism, it's life and past generations' expirence) they are the nation that is the incarnation of evil. I don't know where all of you reside but from where I come from, they caused a lot of pain and suffering. They are people that will sell their mothers to protect their lives. They were the #1 informants to Nazis during WW2. They have killed millions. But no one will ever talk about this. He will be called anti-Semitic right away(as probably will i, but i'm proud of it). [/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
honestly, you both are f**king morons who obviously have no idea what you are talking about...you Greg, need to 1) lay off the caps lock, and 2) get some f**king facts... 99% of the US gov't is NOT jewish, you idiot, and the jews don't have some f**king conspriracy like you seem to think...
and to you Arkan, you're proud to be an anti-semite...good job, you have proven yourself to be an ignorant buffoon...jewdism has nothing to do with evil, nor were they the #1 informants in WW2...if you didn't know, the nazi's had a mass genocide of jews, you twit...nor have the jews "killed millions"...where are these "millions" of dead people that you speak of? again, you are a f**ktard...
both of you please go educate yourselves

[Miles]

someone close this please

[Arkan Raznatovic]

LeperMessiah,how old are you? I won't call you names or something childish like that. I'm a grown man that has read some history books. And unlike you, I'M FROM places where there were supposedly 6M jews killed(I will never deny that they didnt get it pretty bad, but the figures are wrong). Go to Poland and ask anyone over 50: who were the people that were selling out lifes by 100's during WW2? You will get the real stories. You will see the suffering, the families destroyed and killed, just because a Jew wanted to save his own life. While Poles where fighting, dieing and trying to protect everyone(INCLUDING Jews) from the German onslaught, Jews(no, not all of them) were making pacts with the occupation forces how to be on their good side...
So, first of all, I know that you are a big man on the computer, I would like to see you say all that name-calling in front of me, but that's another story. Second, you are asking ME to get educated??? Look at yourself first, then try to judge others. People who think that they know all, most of the time know nothing...

[Albert Schweitzer]

I find this threat amusing and I feel like sitting on a bench in the borderzone of the Gaza-strip.

It is like playing ping pong: You are.....
I never said that.....
Okay, now shut the f.. up
you are just jealous....

Nice nice! And I am surprised that you talk so much about the Nazis, is that a phenomenon or something?

Well anyway, I am half german and I can only tell you that we are back! we want to conquer the world again, we already have developed our super hyper new planes, a stealth-bomber is a yoke agains the new Messerschmidt. See here!

http://www.soldat-und-technik.de/images/0012/lg8.gif

typically german, we always overestimate ourselves!

Liebensraum, by the way, means space to make love! I like that expression, my girlfriend an me need a lot of that, but if you mean the Hitler expression, it is "Lebensraum"
Enjoy life :biggrin:

[LeperMessiah]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Arkan Raznatovic on 10:12 am on Dec. 1, 2001
LeperMessiah,how old are you? I won't call you names or something childish like that. I'm a grown man that has read some history books. And unlike you, I'M FROM places where there were supposedly 6M jews killed(I will never deny that they didnt get it pretty bad, but the figures are wrong). Go to Poland and ask anyone over 50: who were the people that were selling out lifes by 100's during WW2? You will get the real stories. You will see the suffering, the families destroyed and killed, just because a Jew wanted to save his own life. While Poles where fighting, dieing and trying to protect everyone(INCLUDING Jews) from the German onslaught, Jews(no, not all of them) were making pacts with the occupation forces how to be on their good side...
So, first of all, I know that you are a big man on the computer, I would like to see you say all that name-calling in front of me, but that's another story. Second, you are asking ME to get educated??? Look at yourself first, then try to judge others. People who think that they know all, most of the time know nothing...
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'>
you just proved how uneducated you obviously are...btw, the poles gave up in 3 days, so much for "trying to protect everyone"...not to mention it is one of the most anti-semetic countries in the world, therefore "asking anyone over 50" wouldn't apply, since most would probably just deny anything ever happened in the first place...
and fine, you don't have to be "childish", but i will
<span style='font-size:12pt;line-height:100%'>YOU = f**kING IDIOT</span>

[iloveyanks]

Now watch it lads, we can't go skitting the Russian stuff, the reason we never saw any decent kit for years is, surprise surprise, because they wanted to keep it secret so we would s**t ourselves as they crossed the border. To be honest the new BMP's would definatly comprehensivly beat the s**t out of the bradley and probably do about the same to the warrior2000 (desert warrior for the saudis and kuwaitis) and the new marders. The T80's and T90's by mid 80 and early 90's had fire control systems thanks to the french and although maybe they are slightly under in quality compared to leopard 3 and challenger 2, they weigh only half of a challender and are a fraction of the price meaning you get several tanks to the price of one AND they have ERA. Not bad i'd say.

[iloveyanks]

 Baah... the Challengers didnt take much punishment from our A-10's http://www.flashpoint1985.com/ikonboard3/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Yeah on that note i must say you americans are either pretty sh** at vehicle recognition and/or map reading as the Fusiliers who were in the warrior that was blow up by the A10 were waving as they have charged through the enemy line and had reached their objectives the quickest in the entire campaign. they were then waving to an f-16 or something which barrel rolled for congradulation, unfortuantly two a-10 pilots turn up 20minutes later and use thier 30mm on one of the wagons and kill all 11 fusiliers. The warriors also had britsh flags on top, which every other pilot recognised, so the yanks were obviously blind. Enough said nob ends.

[madmike]

It was 2 warriors that were attacked on that occassion and the British troops were so furious at the pilots of the A-10s that they were nearly shot down. The thing many brits feared was not Iraq but freindly fire incidents that america is well known for.
About 50 members of the SAS were also nearly wipped out by an A-10 but luckly escaped with minor injuries.


The list is endless...........................

[DoubleTAP]

Why Marines only trust Marine Aviators for combat air support.

[Captain Kickass]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Quote: from Greg Dragunovski on 4:05 pm on Nov. 27, 2001
....hmmmmm a Jewish tank....Israel is not a Western country....they are arabs with diff. faces LOL.Jewish equipment is such d*amn crap that a man armed with a 9mm pistol could destroy a whole platoon of jewish KOSHER TANKS!

I don't see why you love the challenger so much but hey it's your choice OHH and the guy who talked about the black eagle.....many experts say that the Black Eagle is the "best" tank(everything is "tip-top")in the world.

AND GUYS PLZ RESPOND THIS TIME lol
[/QUOTE]<span id='postcolor'> You want to know why we like the Challenger so much? Its because we Brits are patriotic chaps thats why!

[Miles]

and its the best tank in the world bar none