Can't fly in a straight line (auto trim off.). [Archive]

kylania

Jul 18 2011, 18:57

You really need to have some form of analogue control to try and get it balanced before setting the trim, you need a little cyclic and rudder to sort it out.

Unless this game is shipping with a custom controller + pedals, they'd better make it keyboard flyable without pedals. :) As it stands now it's nearly impossible for many to control since the helicopter immediately begins uncontrollable and drastic rolling and tilting from the start.

Maybe if they made the X/C work the same as Q/Z so we could apply a little and keep it applied rather than having to constantly press X or W and always end up overcompensating in doing so.

Archosaurusrev

Jul 18 2011, 19:36

Unless this game is shipping with a custom controller + pedals, they'd better make it keyboard flyable without pedals. :) As it stands now it's nearly impossible for many to control since the helicopter immediately begins uncontrollable and drastic rolling and tilting from the start.

Maybe if they made the X/C work the same as Q/Z so we could apply a little and keep it applied rather than having to constantly press X or W and always end up overcompensating in doing so.

That would fix it.

You have a 0.000001% chance to set the trim well with a keyboard, that means it's about luck. :(

Doing what is suggested above would fix it. Irl when you set trim/change pressure to pedals it STAYS set.

Jesus fucking christ, I've seen videos of people flying in FSX with no pedals, only a mouse and keyboard.

-Sn1PeR-

Jul 18 2011, 21:37

Unless this game is shipping with a custom controller + pedals, they'd better make it keyboard flyable without pedals. :) As it stands now it's nearly impossible for many to control since the helicopter immediately begins uncontrollable and drastic rolling and tilting from the start.

Maybe if they made the X/C work the same as Q/Z so we could apply a little and keep it applied rather than having to constantly press X or W and always end up overcompensating in doing so.

Isn't that why auto trim exists in the first place? You are asking to emulate a very nuanced analog control with on/off switches. I personally would rather them do exactly what they are attempting to -- give various difficulties to toggle on/off flight-aids rather than dumbing down the game so that it's flyable with a keyboard.

[DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

Jul 18 2011, 23:40

Sniper,
providing analog control over tailrotor axis X/C would only affect keyboard control systems, WILL NOT dumb the game down in any way shape or form, but rather make it more realistic when using that hardware.

-Sn1PeR-

Jul 19 2011, 01:26

How are you suggesting they provide analog control with two buttons? They could add bands (ie. 10% step sizes, etc.), but that still would not be sufficient for perfect trim.

Celery

Jul 19 2011, 01:31

How are you suggesting they provide analog control with two buttons? They could add bands (ie. 10% step sizes, etc.), but that still would not be sufficient for perfect trim.

What do you care, you're not going to fly with a keyboard anyway. :confused:

The rudder-throttle keyboard assimilation seems like a good idea, and I don't see how it will dumb down your joystick gameplay.

-Sn1PeR-

Jul 19 2011, 01:44

What do you care, you're not going to fly with a keyboard anyway. :confused:

The rudder-throttle keyboard assimilation seems like a good idea, and I don't see how it will dumb down your joystick gameplay.

I was curious, but I get the point. I think I'm done here.

[DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

Jul 19 2011, 01:45

How are you suggesting they provide analog control with two buttons? They could add bands (ie. 10% step sizes, etc.), but that still would not be sufficient for perfect trim.

the same way they did with keybinds of INCREASE THRUST and DECREASE THRUST. press and hold X (or C) while it cycles to its max 'value'.
there would have to be a way for the value to get back to neutral state...
sounds good, right? :rolleyes:

PELHAM

Jul 19 2011, 15:40

I have a 25 year old joystick somewhere in the loft with manual trim wheels. I think I might use that lol.

Why don't they introduce manual trim in the keyboard so if you press shift and W,A,S,D,Z or X it gives 1 measure of trim in the given direction? (I think someone has sort of mentioned this.)

Also lets face it - if it's a realistic flight sim it's reasonable to expect the player to use something more than a mouse and keyboard as standard. You would never be able to control a real helicopter using such basic input devices.

TheCapulet

Jul 19 2011, 16:45

Also lets face it - if it's a realistic flight sim it's reasonable to expect the player to use something more than a mouse and keyboard as standard. You would never be able to control a real helicopter using such basic input devices.
Your common sense is showing. :O

DnA

Jul 20 2011, 07:23

Also lets face it - if it's a realistic flight sim it's reasonable to expect the player to use something more than a mouse and keyboard as standard.

We will look at improving this, but generally: this is one of the reasons we've included auto-trim. Not having as many analogue axes when using keyboard and mouse means this system can handle at least one for you :)

Archosaurusrev

Jul 20 2011, 13:48

I wasn't asking to make it as easy to fly with the good ol' combo of a mouse and keyboard, that isn't possible.

Flight sims should be better optimised for sticks.

But some kind of "increase thrust" and "decrease thrust" for keyboard turning would help us keyboard people who don't have a stick (Yet, hopefully :D.).

[DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

Jul 20 2011, 14:03

I wasn't asking to make it as easy to fly with the good ol' combo of a mouse and keyboard, that isn't possible.

it's already as easy to fly with mouse and keyboard as it is with joystick, it just takes practice.

reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKq4Z9JLOkk

Archosaurusrev

Jul 20 2011, 15:09

-Ziggy-;1985736']it's already as easy to fly with mouse and keyboard as it is with joystick, it just takes practice.

reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKq4Z9JLOkk

Yeah, I can fly good with the mouse + keyboard but usually flightsim equipment allows you to more freely maneuver.

For people like me who are used to the keyboard control can get over that limit. My only problem is trim setting, everything else I do as competently.

Liquidpinky

Jul 20 2011, 16:20

They could maybe make it similar to what I have on my RC controller, the trim is a separate slider below and to the side of the stick.
This could be adjusted with plus and minus key assignments for them and maybe have a visible trim setting shown somewhere on the HUD for these.
I would find this usefull myself to set trim up before take off etc even though I use a flight stick.

Is it just set like it is in ToH, by a single toggle trim on/off, in a real helicopter?

kylania

Jul 20 2011, 19:24

Isn't that why auto trim exists in the first place? You are asking to emulate a very nuanced analog control with on/off switches. I personally would rather them do exactly what they are attempting to -- give various difficulties to toggle on/off flight-aids rather than dumbing down the game so that it's flyable with a keyboard.

The problem is AutoTrim doesn't exist in Veteran mode and I don't want to play in Recruit mode. Regular has the option to turn it on, but Veteran doesn't. For something that's so completely critical to the essence of playability for the game it should be on or at least optional for all levels of difficulty, like 3rd Person View.

Flying with AT on with keyboard/mouse is challenging to get right but actually doable. Feels like a more difficult version of what we have now and that I like. Landing with the ground effect wind is a deadly affair for me so far! heh

With Autotrim off it's completely and utterly uncontrollable bad. A "makes me want to cancel my pre-order" bad. That's a very bad bad to be. :)

PELHAM

Jul 21 2011, 01:52

Anyone noticed that if you are careless with the Joystick throttle it has a bad effect and causes most of the trim problems?

Make slow increases and decreases with the throttle or you get bad torque effects.

Fast throttle increase = roll + yaw right
Fast throttle decrease = roll +yaw to the left

I think that's normal in a helicopter? Once I learned to be cautious with the throttle and anticipate how much power I'm going to need - I don't even worry about Auto-trim now.

If you have any bad habits from Arma 2 - e.g. slap the throttle on full for take off and cruising you will have bad stability. You only need 25% - 50% power for most situations. 50% - 75% for entering a hover if speed is low and you have some downward velocity.

Probably the same with the keyboard throttle keys?

nightsta1ker

Jul 21 2011, 05:31

Some of you guys need to check out google or wikipedia and learn about helicopter flight behavior before you criticize the Devs for what is happening in the game.

I will school you up.

The effect of the main rotor being turned by the engine/transmission creates torque. This torque causes the body of the helicopter to want to rotate in the opposite direction of the rotor blades. This requires a tail rotor to counter this torque. The tail rotor can also be used conveniently to control yaw left or right. If you increase the amount of power to the rotor system you also increase the torque and need additional pedal to counter the torque. Now, with that tail rotor spinning and pushing air sideways it gives the helicopter a tendency to drift in the direction of tail rotor thrust and also gives it a rolling tendency. This is all in a hover, mind you, the dynamics change in forward flight (just to make things complicated). In forward flight the vertical stabilizer on the tail takes over and uses the wind created by forward flight to stabilize the tail. This results in the pilot not needing to apply left pedal as much or at all. If you continue to apply left pedal the helicopter will want to yaw and possibly roll. Try reducing your pedal input as you accelerate forward. Also, try not to be too liberal with your power changes as any input can drastically change the flight condition. Use smooth slow inputs, be gentle and careful. Just to complicate matters further, if you accelerate too fast, past the red line on the airspeed indicator, you will encounter retreating blade stall. The forward airspeed of the helicopter coupled with the rotation of the blades means that the blade on the right is moving faster than the blade on the left, although they are rotating at the same speed, you have to add the helicopters airspeed on one side and subtract it from the other. This dissymetry of speed causes a dissymetry of lift on either side of the rotor disc and the helicopter wants to roll left. This actually starts happening at very low airspeeds but is countered by the flapping mechanism in the rotor head, allowing the advancing blade to flap up and the retreating blade to flap down. As the advancing blade flaps up the angle of attack is decreased and thus lift is decreased. Adversely the opposite is happening on the retreating side, so the airspeed of the advancing and retreating blades are very different, the lift remains the same. The foreward airspeed of the helicopter is limited to how far the blades can flap before they cannot compensate for that dissymetry of lift any more.

---------- Post added at 05:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:25 AM ----------

Now that I have demonstrated some of the reasons why the helicopter is so darn squirrelly, I can only offer the advice that you need to keep in mind that you should be constantly adjusting things. Any control input is going to have a chain reaction of change to all the other inputs, and the behavior will vary with airspeed. Helicopters are very consistent with their inconsistencies. Once you get used to them, it all becomes second nature, but at first, it's like trying to juggle two chainsaws while riding a unicycle with a glass of water balanced on your nose.

twisted

Jul 21 2011, 07:28

The problem is AutoTrim doesn't exist in Veteran mode and I don't want to play in Recruit mode. Regular has the option to turn it on, but Veteran doesn't. For something that's so completely critical to the essence of playability for the game it should be on or at least optional for all levels of difficulty, like 3rd Person View.
)

if memory serves me right you can edit your config files to change the built in settings and give yourself autotrim at expert level. its like that in arma2 and should be like that in this tkoh preview.

not by my pc so can't tell you the exact file though.

@<hidden> - damn interesting read. always good to get pilot knwoledge on what it is really supposed to be like. seems like BIS is getting lots right.

Archosaurusrev

Jul 21 2011, 13:46

Flight model is very good, to add.

All we keyboard people need is a slider kind of meter for pedal control (Like the throttle right now.) and were good to go.

PELHAM

Jul 21 2011, 15:57

Some of you guys need to check out google or wikipedia and learn about helicopter flight behavior before you criticize the Devs for what is happening in the game.

Agree with nightsta1ker 100%!

Read Chickenhawk by Robert Mason and he says the same thing. You have many forces acting in different directions at the same time. Each time you mess with pedals, collective / cyclic things change and you have to counteract them.

E.G. pushing the pedals makes the tail rotor work either more or less. For a given power setting the tail will be taking more or less power away from the rotor when you push the pedals. So the heli will also climb or descend a little.

Mason describes escaping from a low hover over a minefield he was trapped in (overloaded helicopter) by pushing the right pedal. This allowed enough power into the main rotor for him to climb a little and hover back over the fence.
The Helicopter was loaded with a cargo of rockets so if he had not understood that he would have been a dead man!

The more I learn to fly TKOH the more I realise the DEVs have it right. I agree people who fly with keyboard may need extra things but I have tried and you can't react in time (not enough fingers lol). You need a joystick with a twist grip for the pedals - minimum.

Alex72

Jul 21 2011, 16:11

Using keyboard for pedals with the same way as the throttle is a bit hard i guess since the pedals will move "slowly" at a set pace and thus hard to do quicker maneuvers. BIS might come up with some way to solve it though. However i do think personally if one is interested in flying more realistic sims a joystick/HOTAS is the way to go. Same as getting a steering wheel when into racing.

ziiip

Jul 21 2011, 16:24

So this is realistic and not just a bug?

PELHAM

Jul 21 2011, 16:40

So this is realistic and not just a bug?

Yep it's realistic - flying helicopters is very difficllt lol. It took me awhile to realise it too.

I was flipping the throttle to max for takeoff and wondering why the helo was bucking all over the sky - it's the torque + tail rotor. We have to forget the way we flew in Arma 2.

kylania

Jul 21 2011, 17:54

if memory serves me right you can edit your config files to change the built in settings and give yourself autorotate at expert level. its like that in arma2 and should be like that in this tkoh preview.

not by my pc so can't tell you the exact file though.

No one should have to manually edit config files for something like this. It should be an option from the start.

nightsta1ker

Jul 21 2011, 23:57

The devs are working on it being realistic. They don't quite have it down pat... yet. But this is just a preview for feedback. I would say the only way to nail the flight behavior would be to have pilots with hundreds of real hours help develop the game, which they don't, letting the community test it and changing the game based on our feedback is the next best thing.

There are some quirky things about TOH that I do not like, but they have already been addressed and hopefully will be changed before the final release.

CarlGustaffa

Jul 22 2011, 04:57

The problem is AutoTrim doesn't exist in Veteran mode and I don't want to play in Recruit mode.

Why don't you want to play in Regular (I assume) mode? You can setup all the other difficulties to match what is default for Veteran. For a pure helicopter sim, I would expect autotrim not be available in Veteran, and all the other helpers (hard landing, stress forces and whatever) to be forced off in Expert mode.

Not so much for Arma3 though, which isn't a pure helicopter sim.

Celery

Jul 22 2011, 10:33

Why don't you want to play in Regular (I assume) mode? You can setup all the other difficulties to match what is default for Veteran. For a pure helicopter sim, I would expect autotrim not be available in Veteran, and all the other helpers (hard landing, stress forces and whatever) to be forced off in Expert mode.

Not so much for Arma3 though, which isn't a pure helicopter sim.

Most non-joystick players will be effectively barred from playing on many of the servers if higher difficulties prevent autotrim and if there is no solution to make them cope with it.

Archosaurusrev

Jul 22 2011, 14:39

It may be realistic, but adding a gradual slider for pedals for keyboard users will not mess with the stick controls.

It's a win win, it's not like pedals perform the same way as keys anyway, it would make it more realistic imo.

CameronMcDonald

Jul 23 2011, 07:47

I beg of you, add the option for auto-trim back to Veteran mode. Like the OP, it is nigh upon impossible to fly with a mouse and a keyboard if auto-trim is not enabled.

Stick users can keep it disabled. Stickless users can enable it. Everyone wins.

CarlGustaffa

Jul 23 2011, 10:09

Most non-joystick players will be effectively barred from playing on many of the servers if higher difficulties prevent autotrim and if there is no solution to make them cope with it.

There is a solution. Get the right equipment to fly helicopters realistically. It's not a fortune. If I run a server at a certain mode, it's because I expect those who joins to be able to run at that mode. Like in Arma, I don't run server without 3rd person or crosshairs so that people can override it. Vote to run in regular mode or join an appropriate server.

That being said, how deep will multiplayer be in the first place, compared to Arma? I really don't expect to see any co30 games going on, more like co2-5 depending on crew. If you can't fly the chopper, I'm sure other crew stations will be more suitable.

CameronMcDonald

Jul 23 2011, 11:01

There is a solution. Get the right equipment to fly helicopters realistically. It's not a fortune.

I disagree. Not everyone has a Sidewinder and pedals sitting around. This is like arguing that vehicle driving should be inaccessible to everyone who hasn't got a wheel and pedals.

Not only does preventing auto-trim in veteran exclude all players sans stick/pedals from MP, but it makes SP a pleasant walk through hell as well.

PELHAM

Jul 23 2011, 11:14

I have an old MS sidewinder with twist-grip and a throttle - With a lot of practice I am able to fly it reasonably well and I am starting to get adventurous. Honestly, the secret is small movements, care with the throttle (less power is better) so you don't over torque and follow the bouncing white stability ball!

Landings - I either hit too hard and roll over or get over cautious with stopping and fly backwards! Anyone got any tips on the last 5m of flight?

Archosaurusrev

Jul 24 2011, 12:38

Blu3sman

Jul 24 2011, 13:09

Celery

Jul 24 2011, 13:33

How about compromise: get yourself a gamepad.;)
It's good for controlling any vehicle. And it's cheap.
I am flying preview now with logitech rumblepad2 and I have absolutely no problems with control. Even in hover.
I'd rather that we didn't have to make compromises. The game is still under development, and this thread offers feedback to the devs.

CarlGustaffa

Jul 24 2011, 13:34

Not everyone has a Sidewinder and pedals sitting around.

I did say get.

This is like arguing that vehicle driving should be inaccessible to everyone who hasn't got a wheel and pedals.

Like realistic racing sims? Don't expect to win races with digital controls at highest difficulties or without aids. The aid needed is available at lower difficulties, just like every other significant aid.

It's also same as saying we're making Arma inaccessible by using no 3rd person to those who enjoy using fake 3rd person - I mean, yeah, that's the whole idea, isn't it - to shut out these cheaters? If you can't tackle non piloting slots in a realistic helicopter sim on realistic levels, take another slot (copilot/searcher/hoist operator) or choose another server. This is not Arma - a game, but a simulator.

That being said, we still don't know what the MP part of TAKOH will be. If it turns out to be more of an action game, I might change my mind about this.

Not only does preventing auto-trim in veteran exclude all players sans stick/pedals from MP, but it makes SP a pleasant walk through hell as well.

SP? You can setup SP difficulties to your hearts desire, like everything in regular and veteran being equal. Choose regular and set it up same as veteran.

Note that even with pedals and joystick, my piloting skills without auto trim (which I refuse to use so far), pretty much suck. That doesn't influence my view though.

Celery

Jul 24 2011, 13:49

Like realistic racing sims? Don't expect to win races with digital controls at highest difficulties or without aids. The aid needed is available at lower difficulties, just like every other significant aid.
BI pretty much proved that you can make awesome helicopter controls for mouse and keyboard without sacrificing much realism or performance. Making it almost 1:1 comparable to joystick in terms of flying performance rests on this pedal control feature.

nightsta1ker

Jul 24 2011, 15:54

BI pretty much proved that you can make awesome helicopter controls for mouse and keyboard without sacrificing much realism or performance. Making it almost 1:1 comparable to joystick in terms of flying performance rests on this pedal control feature.

I don't see how you can implement smooth and ergonomic pedal control without a joystick or pedals. I've thought about it, and I just don't see how it could be done. Like Carl said, if you don't have the necessary controls, use the aids that enable you to fly it WITHOUT the necessary controls. I think it's hypocritical to ask for realism and then complain that on full realism settings you can't control the helicopter with your keyboard and mouse. If you wan't realism, get some real controls. If you want to fly with a mouse and keyboard, you are going to have to sacrifice some realism. You don't fly a real helicopter with a mouse and keyboard. Just my two cents

Celery

Jul 24 2011, 16:40

I don't see how you can implement smooth and ergonomic pedal control without a joystick or pedals. I've thought about it, and I just don't see how it could be done. Like Carl said, if you don't have the necessary controls, use the aids that enable you to fly it WITHOUT the necessary controls. I think it's hypocritical to ask for realism and then complain that on full realism settings you can't control the helicopter with your keyboard and mouse. If you wan't realism, get some real controls. If you want to fly with a mouse and keyboard, you are going to have to sacrifice some realism. You don't fly a real helicopter with a mouse and keyboard. Just my two cents
Geez, it's only been discussed in this very thread. You know, analog rudder control/trimming keys? All this "you WILL need a joystick if..." stuff sounds like to me is appallment over the preposterous notion that a guy controlling his chopper with a mouse and keyboard can be better than someone who's invested money in a HOTAS/whatever controller setup simply because he's the better pilot.

CarlGustaffa

Jul 24 2011, 17:19

What?

Realism = Having to deal with rudder and trim in the proper way.
Autotrim != Realism at all, so it doesn't belong in Veteran mode where such realism is expected.

Try to come up with different control schemes that would work for you with a keyboard rather than ask for autotrim for a difficulty mode where (imo) it doesn't belong.

How about?
y - -10
u - -1
i - center
o - +1
p - +10

Or function keys setting rudder directly, with F5 being neutral?

Point being, in a veteran mode you should have to manage rudder (sorry, I'm a GA fly boy :p) rather than completely ignore it.

Celery

Jul 24 2011, 17:41

nightsta1ker

Jul 24 2011, 20:51

Celery, my point is that it's apples and oranges. You hardcore keyboard guys are blowing my mind.

Do whatever you want. My joystick cost me $30. It has proven itself worth every penny.

Nicholas

Jul 24 2011, 22:09

Can't fly in a straight line

You haven't been drinking, have you? :nener:

Anyways, I believe it has to do with the torque of the engine and other weather effects.

Celery

Jul 25 2011, 00:11

Celery, my point is that it's apples and oranges. You hardcore keyboard guys are blowing my mind.

Do whatever you want. My joystick cost me $30. It has proven itself worth every penny.

What are the apples and what are the oranges again? Ignoring the fact that the mouse and keyboard controls are very nearly perfect, you stated that you must use a joystick if you want realism. And you use that as an argument for BI to not implement a rudder control system that would solve the problem for mkb users.

[DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

Jul 25 2011, 00:53

my joystick was given free to me (sidewinder precision pro) and I'm glad I didn't pay for it ;)

CameronMcDonald

Jul 25 2011, 10:06

I did say get.

Your point? I don't want to buy a stick that I'm going to use for one game. My interest in PC air combat pretty much copped it with Chuck Yeager's Air Combat (wipes tear).

SP? You can setup SP difficulties to your hearts desire, like everything in regular and veteran being equal. Choose regular and set it up same as veteran.

Reeks of effort and doesn't solve the MP whinge I had. :D

But srsly, reading some of the other suggestions - making the X-C axis a bar like the Q-Z would probably go quite some way to making the keyboard method a bit more controllable. At the moment there's no way to tell how much or little rudder is being applied (which is usually 100% either way if you keep the button down for longer than half a second).

nightsta1ker

Jul 26 2011, 00:30

What are the apples and what are the oranges again? Ignoring the fact that the mouse and keyboard controls are very nearly perfect, you stated that you must use a joystick if you want realism. And you use that as an argument for BI to not implement a rudder control system that would solve the problem for mkb users.

I did no such thing. Now you are putting words in my mouth. What I am saying is that my opinion is that you shouldn't be begging a "realistic" flying helicopter when you don't even have a joystick. Like I said in my first post: Helicopters are not flown with a keyboard and mouse, so trying to fly one with a keyboard and mouse is not very realistic. I did not complain about their tank controls for ArmA being "unrealistic" as I do not have real tank controls. I have actually driven a tank and I don't think they are modeled correctly in the game, however, I did not say BOO about it until now and only to make a point. Point being, if you are not going to bother with proper controls, don't ask for realism. You are cutting yourself short on the realism part by refusing to get a joystick.

Now, do I feel BI should implement some sort of anti-torque function to make it easier for keyboard users? Sure! I have no problems with that. Just keep in mind, whatever they come up with will not be "realistic". Realism to me is having pedals, a cyclic and a collective in my hands. Even a joystick falls somewhat short in that category. It's all relative, but the farther away from real controls you get, the less realistic. Does that make ANY sense to you?

Celery

Jul 26 2011, 01:11

I did no such thing. Now you are putting words in my mouth. What I am saying is that my opinion is that you shouldn't be begging a "realistic" flying helicopter when you don't even have a joystick. Like I said in my first post: Helicopters are not flown with a keyboard and mouse, so trying to fly one with a keyboard and mouse is not very realistic. I did not complain about their tank controls for ArmA being "unrealistic" as I do not have real tank controls. I have actually driven a tank and I don't think they are modeled correctly in the game, however, I did not say BOO about it until now and only to make a point. Point being, if you are not going to bother with proper controls, don't ask for realism. You are cutting yourself short on the realism part by refusing to get a joystick.

Now, do I feel BI should implement some sort of anti-torque function to make it easier for keyboard users? Sure! I have no problems with that. Just keep in mind, whatever they come up with will not be "realistic". Realism to me is having pedals, a cyclic and a collective in my hands. Even a joystick falls somewhat short in that category. It's all relative, but the farther away from real controls you get, the less realistic. Does that make ANY sense to you?

No, it doesn't make sense. The helicopter abides by exactly the same rules whether you use a mouse or a joystick. The only way it gets less realistic is by BI downgrading the flight model to accommodate non-joystick control. Obviously that's not needed if an alternative way of rudder control for keyboard is implemented. Because the devs have made the controls already excellent as is, my eyebrow raises when somebody tells me that I am required to use a joystick if I am to play the game or expect any kind of realism from it, especially when the devs are still learning from feedback and adding requested features.

nightsta1ker

Jul 26 2011, 02:06

No, it doesn't make sense. The helicopter abides by exactly the same rules whether you use a mouse or a joystick. The only way it gets less realistic is by BI downgrading the flight model to accommodate non-joystick control. Obviously that's not needed if an alternative way of rudder control for keyboard is implemented. Because the devs have made the controls already excellent as is, my eyebrow raises when somebody tells me that I am required to use a joystick if I am to play the game or expect any kind of realism from it, especially when the devs are still learning from feedback and adding requested features.

OK. I see your point. As smart as I would like to think I am, I can be dense sometimes. I get what you are saying. I was skimming the thread and my mind was filling in the blanks. After reading some of the posts a little more carefully I realized that you were not complaining about it being too difficult to control with a keyboard, but merely wanting a more fluid rudder control function FOR a keyboard. I apologize.

CameronMcDonald

Jul 26 2011, 08:09

I might add at this point that I can fly the thing almost sensibly while doing the trim by hand - it's hovering and landing that causes me grief.

EDcase

Jul 26 2011, 10:15

I'm sorry, I just don't see how BIS can make the flight model realistic and still be able to control it properly with Keys and mouse :headscratch:

The main problem with keys is you NEED analogue rudder control.

The only way to do it is to use some form of auto-trim which is fine by me as long as its an option.

[DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

Jul 26 2011, 13:42

I fail to see how adding keyboard helicopter control flexibility sacrifices realism for joystick users.
Please, people. Its hard to have a meaningful discussion when we keep saying the same things over and over.

Archosaurusrev

Jul 26 2011, 14:43

How about compromise: get yourself a gamepad.;)
It's good for controlling any vehicle. And it's cheap.
I am flying preview now with logitech rumblepad2 and I have absolutely no problems with control. Even in hover.

I would do that, if the cheapest gamepads/sticks werent 60 - 200 euros. (Around here.)

I can survive for some months without good flying equipment, some people can't even afford those.

Tomek2708

Oct 31 2011, 11:24

It all sounds very reasonable, but I can not imagine that any pilot is constantly pushing the flight stick to the left, because of the effects from the tailrotor.

---------- Post added at 01:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:55 PM ----------

It all sounds very reasonable, but I can not imagine that any pilot is constantly pushing the flight stick to the left, because of the effects from the tailrotor.

I have to push my flightstick more than half of the way to the left, in order to keep my bird steady. That can't be that normal. I understand small inputs, but hanging at the flightstick doesn't seem that usual.
And pushing the pedal all the way down to prevent yaw, caused by torque?

The other thing is, that when I try to get in hover-mode with the hover-mode function, my own trimming causes the bird to drift in the direction I trimmed it before, so every time I have to release my trim and re-trim when I exit hover-mode and keep flying.

It feels like the axis are twisted and I can't imagine that this is the real behavour of a helicopter, even when the game is very realistic, and even when the tailrotor cause rolling.