Community Feedback Thread - TOH:CP [Archive]

Mavericko

Jun 24 2011, 11:03

Oh, that was difficult. As soon as I take auto hover off, the helicopter starts spinning out of control, and I can't find any way of stopping this. Any helpful tips on how to fly this thing would be most welcome!:o

You need to counter-act with your rudder controls, same buttons as in Arma.

It was poorly done in my opinion, because unless you have pressure based buttons/axis and not just a "normal" button, the rudder won't be perfectly controlled. I did not check to see if there was any setting to change this however.

The first thing I noticed when I started the preview scenario, was that the pilot is in the wrong seat. Yes, you can fly choppers from both seats, but if there is only one pilot, they are flown from the right-hand seat.

I never understood why in Arma, Black Hawks were flown from the right-hand seat, but little birds from the left for example.

The flight-model was.. interesting, it felt a bit sluggish, and you need a pretty sensitiv joystick to fly it well, my joystick has fairly big dead-zone, for my taste anyway. I fly helicopters in FSX so I'm fairly demanding when it comes to my joystick.

Turn on the auto trim. ;)

I did not actually try the trim, but the real-life trim does not trim the rudder, it trims the cyclic.

I was also a bit disappointed that the start-up procedure was so automated..

This said, I will try the final version before deciding wether it is worth it.

Johan S

Jun 24 2011, 11:09

I did try to counteract it with the rudder controls, and while it helped, it was not enough to gain control. Also, as far as I remember, when I looked in the action menu, the auto trim was on.

But I'm sure the solution is just to keep trying and getting more training/experience. I think it's a good sign that you can't just jump in and start flying. You can't do that in real life, so if you can do it in a game then it is obviously very simplified and not very realistic.

Celery

Jun 24 2011, 11:17

Currently the keyboard throttle is way too insensitive. It can result in crashes when you're landing but you can't increase collective in time.

wolfbite

Jun 24 2011, 11:24

Anyone wanna do a quick video to get me through the working day :P

SmukY

Jun 24 2011, 11:43

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brKOmkBZt-8

here you go, my little test on Chernarus. Video is still being processed, after some moment the 720p option will be available.

RoyaltyinExile

Jun 24 2011, 11:47

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brKOmkBZt-8
here you go, my little test on Chernarus.

Hey, auto-trim is for noobs! :p

I should know, afterall, I am one :cool:

Nice vid, though, easy to forget how beautiful Chernarus can be!

Best,
RiE

CarlGustaffa

Jun 24 2011, 11:59

Done. Flying. Well, not the first attempt - went pretty bad. Second flight with auto trim went a lot smoother. Maybe joystick and pedals are recommended? :D Works with the addons I have, including gaia's debug. It's just simply awesome to be able to give commands while flying. Relatively steady wind at 10,10 gives 14.14m/s gives 27.21kts, but airspeed kinda bounced around 15-20, probably not aligned with the wind, but the bouncing? Is turbulent airflow over the pitot tube modeled or something? :D Loved the mirror ;)

SWAT_BigBear

Jun 24 2011, 12:00

I really like the transparent GPS overlay.

Who's idea was the "Bubble Gum Pink" option? :D

RoyaltyinExile

Jun 24 2011, 12:10

Who's idea was the "Bubble Gum Pink" option? :D

I'll give you a hint -- he likes suit-case 'proper' nukes, and end of the world gameplay...

:)

Moricky

Jun 24 2011, 12:10

Who's idea was the "Bubble Gum Pink" option? :D
:whistle:

Papanowel

Jun 24 2011, 12:11

Track Ir 5 seems to be too sensitive with default settings (compare too other sims).

twisted

Jun 24 2011, 12:12

awesome fun. very sensitive. may i ask please to enable full analogue throttle mapping on saitek x52 throttles as mine only goes between full power and half way down - screwing up the control a bit.

CarlGustaffa

Jun 24 2011, 12:14

LOL! Just, LOL :D

YasT

Jun 24 2011, 12:16

awesome fun. very sensitive. may i ask please to enable full analogue throttle mapping on saitek x52 throttles as mine only goes between full power and half way down - screwing up the control a bit.

I'm having the same problem with my Saitek X52. Also, it looks like I cannot apply full yaw and pitch because the helicopter turns quite slow.

Max255[PL]

Jun 24 2011, 12:17

awesome fun. very sensitive. may i ask please to enable full analogue throttle mapping on saitek x52 throttles as mine only goes between full power and half way down - screwing up the control a bit.

Mine's kinda fine... Thought it works only from 50 to 100% like in ArmA, I have a full control over throttle :)

But I do have some issues with sensitivity of roll axis, maybe pitch too...

Can any X52 user post a pic with their in-game controller settings?

_michal

Jun 24 2011, 12:24

I had only Arma2, without OA, and I've just ordered OA to play TakeOn CommPreview.

Awesome video, keep them coming, cant wait to fly by myself.

twisted

Jun 24 2011, 12:41

LOL! Just, LOL :D

if you're lolling at me, well I am glad to have provided you with amusement. but the glovepie work around http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=108410&highlight=glovepie] gives full control in arma2. just was hoping in this heli sim i would get full control as defualt. guess not. just lol hey.

4 IN 1

Jun 24 2011, 12:46

First impression: FLYING WITH AUTO-TRIM OFF WITHOUT A PROPER JOYSTICK IS SCARY :p

CHKilroy

Jun 24 2011, 12:48

I'm getting a "Wrong CD Key" error when trying to install the Community Preview. I've tried running the EXE as admin, and running the EXE from the OA folder, but I've had no luck with either of those.

I have a Steam install of Operation Arrowhead on a 64 bit version of Windows 7, if it matters.

Edit: Fixed by starting Operation Arrowhead on Steam before installing the Community Preview.

SWAT_BigBear

Jun 24 2011, 13:09

if you're lolling at me, well I am glad to have provided you with amusement. but the glovepie work around http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=108410&highlight=glovepie] gives full control in arma2. just was hoping in this heli sim i would get full control as defualt. guess not. just lol hey.
I would think he was laughing at "Take On Barbie", as I was also!

Mr Burns

Jun 24 2011, 13:13

This is serious lol, my first 4 tries already resulted in the worst crashes since ArmA1 was released :p

Undeceived

Jun 24 2011, 13:14

@<hidden> CP:

I don't have words to describe the happiness!! :) :)

This dev is just unbelievable! Really, BI, you get me speachless again and again! :)

CarlGustaffa

Jun 24 2011, 13:14

@<hidden>: Sorry, no lol'ing at the "dialogue" above, "Bubble Gum Pink" and nukes and the like :)

Sorry, been a long time since I installed from scratch, but in what file do I set resolutions? Esc alt+enter takes me to windowed mode as in Arma, but I get a 4:3 aspect ratio rather than the 16:10 I need.

SWAT_BigBear

Jun 24 2011, 13:19

Sorry, been a long time since I installed from scratch, but in what file do I set resolutions? Esc alt+enter takes me to windowed mode as in Arma, but I get a 4:3 aspect ratio rather than the 16:10 I need.
Yeah, my video options for the demo went to odd options also, but it has it's on Video Options where I only had to change about 4 of them to my likes.

BoboCZ

Jun 24 2011, 13:20

So my first impressions:
First I tried fly over Chernarus from main airfield to north east airfield, somehow for third time I managed to get there, with no luck with landing :D.
Then I tried takistan mission, after "few" try I get to landing era, there after 5 minut sweaty landing attemp I finally crash and died.
So far I'm positive, I like it :). Next attemp tomorow or at night.
I fly without trim with same Joystick like BI have on E3.

4 IN 1

Jun 24 2011, 13:23

Is it a know issue(or should I say, non-feature) that the right hand pilot seat rudder paddle is not animated?

also, is the collective control sensitive control a bit too low? or is it realistic?

Trim control is some what expected for keyboard pilots, we don't have controlled continuing input for rudder, only something like ON/OFF

Sethos

Jun 24 2011, 13:28

My first attempt: "Why am I spinning left ... Hello, stop with the shaking ... AND THE SPINNING, STOP oh phew now I got OMFGHOUSE ah phew AHGROUND!" ( With keyboard, haven't hooked up my X52 )

Then I discovered auto-trim :D

Seriously, this is fantastic! Man I'd give both my legs for this kind of flight model in ArmA 3, wow!

Buying this day 1 nonetheless.

Mr. Charles

Jun 24 2011, 13:39

My first few landings on that ridge were pure fails. Once i was flying with like 220 km/h and only 29 meters high, when i suddenly fell down really quick. I killed my rotor blades on one of these huge Takistani trees :(. Now i will try the Manual Trim.

Where is that bubble gum pink thingy?

€dit: When i first set manual trim, then auto trim and then release Manual trim, my engine just cuts out and i fall to death, is that normal?

Cvrnda

Jun 24 2011, 13:40

CarlGustaffa

Jun 24 2011, 13:41

Ahh, found it: TKOHPreview.cfg in Documents and Settings\Arma 2 - I was checking the install dir, app data dir, and "Arma 2 Other Profiles", never use the default profile anymore. To change, simply set winW=800; and winH=500; (for 16:10 aspect), then you can resize the view as you see fit afterwards.

Edit: Also set the winDefW and winDefH to the same as the above, or the view will snap back to 4:3 the moment you start dragging.

Sethos

Jun 24 2011, 13:41

Really great, I installed Take On Preview, I allowed it in the game, and restarted it. And now? Game is crashed, when i want start the game, I see only error table "Error compliling pixel shader PSSSSMSpecularAlpha:1"

Thanks anyway, I'm enjoying reinstall of ArmA II, Operation Arrowhead, Reinforcement and tonne of patches...

... That's because you didn't bother reading the "Readme".

And you don't need to reinstall anything, don't be a drama queen.

4 IN 1

Jun 24 2011, 13:46

... That's because you didn't bother reading the "Readme".

And you don't need to reinstall anything, don't be a drama queen.

Wait, ain't he already been a drama queen?:confused:

OChristie

Jun 24 2011, 13:47

Ok so just loaded it up, No load issues, did the community preview scenario, runs smoothly and the controls are fine, flys very well, handles better than standard OA helicopters.

Overall very impressed :)

Cvrnda

Jun 24 2011, 13:53

... That's because you didn't bother reading the "Readme".

And you don't need to reinstall anything, don't be a drama queen.

Thanks, and sorry for my anger, I only hoped the preview will be more simpler, I didn't expected errors

Big Dawg KS

Jun 24 2011, 13:55

Man this helicopters shit is hard... :386:

I really hope they keep the simplified flight model in ArmA 3.

kylania

Jun 24 2011, 13:57

First impression... spinning wildly, no control. Better read more about how to control this thing! :) Is it at all intended to be used with the keyboard/mouse?

Mr Burns

Jun 24 2011, 14:02

Stop cheating guys, there is no auto-trim!

Whenever this new flight model finds it´s way into Arma(3) we´ll finally have the wannabe pilots stopped. Looking forward to it!

PS:

NF3fYGtCxTw

:D

edit:
I really hope they keep the simplified flight model in ArmA 3.

No. Serverside setting / optional is the way to go methinks.
It definately must be in!

Macadam Cow

Jun 24 2011, 14:08

Any chance to have a torrent ?
Already tried to download the preview several times with no luck, average speed of 2.2Ko... :(

PurePassion

Jun 24 2011, 14:08

do you know how i can solve the "Error compilling pixel shader PSSSSMSpecularAlpha:1" error?

Big Dawg KS

Jun 24 2011, 14:09

No. Serverside setting / optional is the way to go methinks.
It definately must be in!

Most people (myself included) aren't going to want to spend hours practicing just so they can go from point A to point B in ArmA 3. Forcing it upon people is only going to make them ragequit, so if it is in it better be optional (and not default).

I really can't comment much on MP usage though...

Sethos

Jun 24 2011, 14:17

do you know how i can solve the "Error compilling pixel shader PSSSSMSpecularAlpha:1" error?

Start the game with the Take On shortcut in the root folder, as the readme says. Don't try and fiddle around with having mod launchers on the original OA .exe and whatnot.

Mr Burns

Jun 24 2011, 14:18

Most people (myself included) aren't going to want to spend hours practicing just so they can go from point A to point B in ArmA 3. Forcing it upon people is only going to make them ragequit, so if it is in it better be clientside.

Personally i woulnd´t want to have arcade and sim pilots mixed on our server. It´s either one or the other.

If someone doesn´t like it, search another server - usually goes like that anyways when opinions differ.

Any chance to have a torrent ?
Already tried to download the preview several times with no luck, average speed of 2.2Ko... :(

*setting up mirror*

edit: http://armed-assault.de/downloads/take-on-helicopters-community-preview.html :)

sxp2high

Jun 24 2011, 14:29

Here's a mirror:

http://server.arma2.co/Files/Mirror/TKOH_Community_Public_Build_82161.zip

Cole

Jun 24 2011, 14:37

my first community preview experience in a nutshell:
http://i.imgur.com/mrILK.jpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQ6A7bKQiLI)

its goddamn hard flying with a mouse. I should dust off my joystick.

Mavericko

Jun 24 2011, 14:37

Really great, I installed Take On Preview, I allowed it in the game, and restarted it. And now? Game is crashed, when i want start the game, I see only error table:

"Error compiling pixel shader PSSSSMSpecularAlpha:1"

Thanks anyway, I'm enjoying reinstall of ArmA II, Operation Arrowhead, Reinforcement and tonne of patches...

I had that error the first time, I reinstalled the TKOH preview, and then found a shortcut to start it in the Arma 2 folder - worked like a charm.

Liquidpinky

Jun 24 2011, 14:42

Personally i woulnd´t want to have arcade and sim pilots mixed on our server. It´s either one or the other.

If someone doesn´t like it, search another server - usually goes like that anyways when opinions differ.

It would certainly sort the men from the boys, I am all for them having to play it the hard way.
It would be nice if the AI have to suffer the extra realities of Turbulence and vortex Ring etc, would make for some interesting missions for sure.

Looking forward to getting home from work to have my first taste of the Take On experience. Already downloaded and fed onto a USB drive to save valuable time.

CameronMcDonald

Jun 24 2011, 14:44

Heh, well, if I set trim to auto, it's just like flying an MH6 with the occasional shake, and a touchy bitch on landing.

...if I don't set trim to auto, I tend to die. :(

But hell, I remember struggling when ArmA's flight model came out. I remember that great video of some guy doing a preview taking off in the AH1 and dying several seconds later, which was hilarious. I don't see anything that is unconquerable.

aeggwards1

Jun 24 2011, 14:46

First impressions for Take On are great.

Takistan at 20KM view and object distance is awesome.

I also ran Zargabad and Chernarus at 20KM but needed to drop objects to 10KM to be playable, looks awesome and performs as well as CO with the same settings (High) but much lower (3KM) view distance.

The flight model is tough, like most others the first few tries without auto-trim ended with me impacting the dirt. Liking the 6DoF for TrackIr and Render to Texture also.

Thanks

Turin Turambar

Jun 24 2011, 14:46

So... wth taking off is so damn hard? Once i am in the air it's manageable, even landing is hard but not as hard as the take off!

PurePassion

Jun 24 2011, 14:54

one thing i noticed:

Opening doors does currently not affect the flight behavior

4 IN 1

Jun 24 2011, 14:54

Like I said, for keyborad pilot auto trim is a must, having auto-trim off the FM works beautifully with joystick that acturaly came with a rudder paddle(unless you want to get tennis elbow:D)

CarlGustaffa

Jun 24 2011, 14:55

CarlosTex

Jun 24 2011, 14:57

oh i like this flight model

Macadam Cow

Jun 24 2011, 15:03

Thanks a lot for the mirrors guys :)

I've been watching SmukY's vid and it looks like 6 DOF isn't fully implemented (yet?) ?
Can someone confirm this ?

EDIT : woops forget about that

SWAT_BigBear

Jun 24 2011, 15:14

Where is that bubble gum pink thingy?

Found it yet?
Options/Game Options/User Interface/
Beware, I do not know of long term effect on the mind.

CameronMcDonald

Jun 24 2011, 15:17

An impossible wish, but it'd be nice if the avatar-using-the-controls theme was carried across to every vehicle in A3. :don8:

...and static weapons, etc. :)

CarlosTex

Jun 24 2011, 15:18

I just tried engaging a tunguska with a maverick from a 2km altitude...

B-E-A-UTIFUL

10 years since flashpoint i never had this much fun flying. Epic, pure epic...

4 IN 1

Jun 24 2011, 15:19

I have the feeling that once I tackle the hover part and the landing part then I will be ready to have a go with the real thing:D

Time to get myself a new set of TIR5+headclip pro and a joystick thats work!:p

j/k BTW

I just tried engaging a tunguska with a maverick from a 2km altitude...

B-E-A-UTIFUL

10 years since flashpoint i never had this much fun flying. Epic, pure epic...

erm...ain't there only the MD-500 mockup acturally function?:confused:

Turin Turambar

Jun 24 2011, 15:31

@<hidden> Turambar: Well from what I've heard they suffer primary, secondary, and tertiary effects on all controls. You thought it was going to be easy? :D

Btw, does your volume clouds work? I only get them in the interface, like during pausing, not while flying.

I should say i am trying to fly with the keyboard. But it's almost fun how the chopper will crash by itself only using the collective, without touching the direction.

In the changelog they warn of the inside-chopper sound being too low.

Mr. Charles

Jun 24 2011, 15:32

Wow, that custom colour thingy is neato.

*currently rendering 6 DOF Video and uploading

4 IN 1

Jun 24 2011, 15:36

wait, 6DOF is functional?

CarlGustaffa

Jun 24 2011, 15:48

I should say i am trying to fly with the keyboard. But it's almost fun how the chopper will crash by itself only using the collective, without touching the direction.

In the changelog they warn of the inside-chopper sound being too low.

Doing mouse and keyboard flying too. Impossible without auto trim, but my "landings" still suck. Feel like all of a sudden I just drop out of the sky. Never felt this in real choppers though, but then I guess those pilots knew what they were doing :D

On sound, depends. Although the outside cuts through, I thought it was simulating the muffled sound you get wearing ear protection. Some calm music combined with steady hum from the engines - welcome to dream world :)

Big Dawg KS

Jun 24 2011, 15:52

So... where do we send crash logs?

CarlGustaffa

Jun 24 2011, 15:53

From the logbook or from the computer? :D

Big Dawg KS

Jun 24 2011, 15:55

From the logbook or from the computer? :D

Well, both I suppose. :rolleyes:

[DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

Jun 24 2011, 16:26

it minimized and I couldnt get it back to fullscreen. problem with my hardware, apparently

Source
Windows

Summary
Video hardware error

Date
‎6/‎24/‎2011 12:16 PM

Status
Not reported

Description
A problem with your video hardware caused Windows to stop working correctly.

Problem signature
Problem Event Name: LiveKernelEvent
OS Version: 6.1.7600.2.0.0.256.1
Locale ID: 1033

Files that help describe the problem
WD-20110624-1215.dmp
sysdata.xml
WERInternalMetadata.xml

Extra information about the problem
BCCode: 117
BCP1: FFFFFA800CFAB4E0
BCP2: FFFFF88003B58354
BCP3: 0000000000000000
BCP4: 0000000000000000
OS Version: 6_1_7600
Service Pack: 0_0
Product: 256_1

CarlGustaffa

Jun 24 2011, 16:33

Hey, cool! You no longer have to go to advanced graphics menu, it shows up automatically on the side. I just asked for this feature :p Uhm, of course somebody else might have asked long time ago. Should get some sleep now, has been a long night.

[DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

Jun 24 2011, 16:44

suggestion: needs more control when using keyboard and mouse. I cant land the dam thing without crashing.
http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/6821/takeonhpreview201106241.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/takeonhpreview201106241.jpg/)

:rolleyes: precision landing lol :p

RobertHammer

Jun 24 2011, 16:48

I know this is very stupid question ,but is it possible to stop engine without using option from menu?

Because i can easy start without using a option to start ,but don't know how to stop it :D

SWAT_BigBear

Jun 24 2011, 16:51

Keyboards? I just repeatedly tap throttle up/down, easy to land.

CarlosTex

Jun 24 2011, 17:02

erm...ain't there only the MD-500 mockup acturally function?:confused:

I tried the A-10, flying with 20k view distance. Picked the target up from +2km altitude and took the shot.

It felt like in the future RV engine can have a more believable Air2Air combat/better flying simulation.

Mr. Charles

Jun 24 2011, 17:03

My Vegas Pro rendered a 40 GB videofile FPDR

Rerender!

Max255[PL]

Jun 24 2011, 17:08

Damn, and I was assembling furniture instead of practicing... I can't let you guys be ahead of me with your flying skills xD

PurePassion

Jun 24 2011, 17:29

Ohh boii Takistan just looks so small with a 20k VD! ;)

EagleEye[GER]

Jun 24 2011, 18:04

awesome fun. very sensitive. may i ask please to enable full analogue throttle mapping on saitek x52 throttles as mine only goes between full power and half way down - screwing up the control a bit.
Same problem for me with Warthog Throttle. Fine movement of the collective is not possible. Going back flying DCS: Black Shark until they fix the controller routine or someone show how to setup the Throttle properly.:confused:

josche

Jun 24 2011, 18:12

Gabe_Ruckus

Jun 24 2011, 18:19

Using the X360 controller, there is no response to pushing the right thumb stick down, so I can't nose down in the chopper. I'll try again after the next patch! :D

I am going to go fly some A-10s with proper view distance, though...

swissMAG

Jun 24 2011, 18:30

;1965023']Same problem for me with Warthog Throttle. Fine movement of the collective is not possible. Going back flying DCS: Black Shark until they fix the controller routine or someone show how to setup the Throttle properly.:confused:

Hey there,

With the Thrustmaster Warthog Thottle its fairly simple. Just open your Target Script editor and copy that one into it:

include "target.tmh"
int main()
{
Configure(&HCougar, MODE_EXCLUDED);
Configure(&T16000, MODE_EXCLUDED);
if(Init(&EventHandle)) return 1;
SetKBRate(32, 50);
//SetKBLayout(KB_FR); ---------’b’--------------------

//Axis management----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

//Joystick
MapAxis(&Joystick, JOYX, DX_X_AXIS, AXIS_NORMAL, MAP_ABSOLUTE);
SetCustomCurve(&Joystick, JOYX, LIST(0,0, 25,25, 50,50, 75,75, 100,100)); //create a perfect linear response

MapAxis(&Joystick, JOYY, DX_Y_AXIS, AXIS_NORMAL, MAP_ABSOLUTE);
SetCustomCurve(&Joystick, JOYY, LIST(0,0, 25,25, 50,50, 75,75, 100,100)); //create a perfect linear response

//Throttle
MapAxis(&Throttle, THR_RIGHT, DX_Z_AXIS, AXIS_REVERSED, MAP_ABSOLUTE);
SetCustomCurve(&Throttle, THR_RIGHT, LIST(0,50 ,100,100)); //custom curve designed to offer complete axis travel control

}
int EventHandle(int type, alias o, int x)
{
DefaultMapping(&o, x);
}

Compile and Start it. Gives you the full Analog Throttle after you set it up properly.

SmukY

Jun 24 2011, 19:01

JumpingHubert

Jun 24 2011, 19:05

is it possible to deactivate the mirror? It seems to eat performance a lot.

AH 64 cockpitview: 40fps
new TakeOn-Heli: 20fps

@<hidden>
the problem is that the throttle isn´t proportional to ingame move. In the middle area it accelerate too fast ingame.
(hotas cougar, analoge setting)

Sniperwolf572

Jun 24 2011, 19:13

I know this is very stupid question ,but is it possible to stop engine without using option from menu?

Because i can easy start without using a option to start ,but don't know how to stop it :D

There are three action menu items associated with the throttle switch: Off, Idle and Full Power, off doesn't seem available just by clicking, you have to hover the mouse over the switch, then select the Off state from the action menu.

RobertHammer

Jun 24 2011, 19:21

There are three action menu items associated with the throttle switch: Off, Idle and Full Power, off doesn't seem available just by clicking, you have to hover the mouse over the switch, then select the Off state from the action menu.

Yes , noticed and i was wondering how to switch the throttle off heh

thx for info :)

Daniel

Jun 24 2011, 19:25

Agreed with Celery on the keyboard flying, the throttle needs to be more sensitive. Not a big issue for me though, i'll be buying some proper gear when TakOH is released, looking forward to it!

[DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

Jun 24 2011, 19:35

i flew up to about 4900 meters and it ran out of gas :D
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/6821/takeonhpreview201106241.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/195/takeonhpreview201106241.jpg/)

the falling chopper seems to retain a characteristic of being on a string, the way it swings back and forth during freefall.
'reference' video uploading ... .. . trying to at least

sbsmac

Jun 24 2011, 19:46

Just had a quick go and it was a bit easier than I was expecting! :) FWIW in my one and only helicopter lesson IRL the instructor let me try to hover. I very quickly ended up in a feedback-induced oscillation whereas in the game i found it much more stable. This was with auto-hover and auto-trim disabled and using a logitech gamepad.

Other comments...
* Like everyone else, I've noticed that the collective only ranges from 50-100% if you set the 'thrust' to analogue.
* The options for "auto hover on" and "auto trim on" are confusing since it's unclear whether they mean "TURN xx on" or "xx IS currently on". Changing the wording would help a bit.

Other than that - great job - this looks like fun :)

Petko

Jun 24 2011, 19:51

wow, this preview is awsome...
All my dreams come true with this engine upgrade... trackir 6 dof, better flight phisics, interactive cockpit etc.
I just hope all this gets into Arrowhead and Arma 3.

sbsmac

Jun 24 2011, 20:00

One other thing... despite the hint saying to use "right ctrl-H" for enhanced HUD, I couldn't get it to do anything.

Sniperwolf572

Jun 24 2011, 20:22

One other thing... despite the hint saying to use "right ctrl-H" for enhanced HUD, I couldn't get it to do anything.

It just toggles the majority of the HUD on and off as far as I could tell.

http://i.imgur.com/wd1W2l.jpg (http://imgur.com/wd1W2.jpg)

sbsmac

Jun 24 2011, 20:33

Thanks Sniperwolf. Strange, it definitely isn't doing anything for me though. Maybe a keybinding issue ?

Mr. Charles

Jun 24 2011, 20:51

NjNa292QROI

promised 6DOF video

(forget the landing oO)

Zipper5

Jun 24 2011, 20:54

Thanks Sniperwolf. Strange, it definitely isn't doing anything for me though. Maybe a keybinding issue ?
Right Ctrl + M is the keybind to toggle the GPS provided you are using the default controls. If you've changed that binding then maybe it will work if you use your keybind for it.

Edit: Scratch that. Thanks to sbsmac for pointing out the difference.

sbsmac

Jun 24 2011, 21:11

Right Ctrl + M is the keybind to toggle the GPS provided you are using the default controls. If you've changed that binding then maybe it will work if you use your keybind for it.

It's R-CTRL-H (not M) to toggle the HUD. According to the key-bindings in my options/controls settings this is still set but I'm certainly not seeing any effect when I hit that key combination. (R-CTRL-M does show GPS though!)

Max255[PL]

Jun 24 2011, 21:18

Check your difficulity settings, extended HUD was disabled for me by default :)

[DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

Jun 24 2011, 21:21

-Ziggy-;1965099']i flew up to about 4900 meters and it ran out of gas :D
the falling chopper seems to retain a characteristic of being on a string, the way it swings back and forth during freefall.
'reference' video uploading ... .. . trying to at least

MnvMRH_oBZ8

ArmAriffic

Jun 24 2011, 21:26

+ This is going to be sooo fun, nice model, pink UI is sexy!, RENDER TO TEXTURE, awesome work BIS

- I broke the helicopter before I had gotten 5 m high :p

bonefire

Jun 24 2011, 21:33

I wrapped the the instruments for an Hind as a paintwork :)
Maybe this would short down my learning curve for becoming an Tkoh elite pilot? :P

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/2711423/TKOH-skinned2.jpg

One of the first Tkoh skins? hehe ;)

EagleEye[GER]

Jun 24 2011, 21:45

Did you set the digital or analog throttles in ArmA 2/ComPrevTakOH controls setup? If you have it under Throttle then no wonder why they go full up and full down because they're recognized as digital input. If you put it at Throttle Acceleration (analog) (or something alike, you can find it at aircraft controls) you will not have any problems ... that worked for me.
OK, my fault. :o
Thx SmukY!:bounce3: Hmm, never used these analog settings for Thrust before.
Now I´m back in ToH testing the FM.:dance1:
@<hidden>: Thx for reply to!:)

Mr. Charles

Jun 24 2011, 22:22

YT flagged my video in germany. I will upload it to Vimeo.com ;)

BrandonF

Jun 24 2011, 22:31

I really wish I could try out TKOH, but I don't have Arma 2 Operation Arrowhead! :(

[97thRR]ANGEL

Jun 24 2011, 22:36

Bug:
I was trying to land when my chopper flipped over and I was still alive, It did not burn but all that happend was that the bottom broke of and all the rotors.
http://i55.tinypic.com/wtc8le.jpg

Edit: Why is the picture so blurry? (Atleast you can see what I mean with it)

metalcraze

Jun 24 2011, 22:36

Pretty nice job on physics. Now add chopper physics to ArmA - I want to fly Apache with all the turbulence and inertia

The only problems I've noticed so far are:

- moving head (as I take it that's moving head) using CTRL is too fast, too sensitive
- when using CTRL and moving mouse to the left, the camera goes through the door
- have to hold ALT to see interaction points, while the idea is OK it needs polishing as navigating in such way isn't comfortable.

[97thRR]ANGEL

Jun 24 2011, 22:42

I have heard stories from my friends that the TrackIR support is not very good aswell
I do not know anything about it though but I will send them this forum thread.

Le_CuLtO

Jun 24 2011, 22:44

Please make the trims work like in DCS Black Shark:

The difference for trim between a FFB stick and non-feedback stick for Ka-50:

FFB ex: - You push stick forward to maintain a desired pitch while flying. You press trim and the stick will stay in that position allowing you to release pressure with your hand to make things more comfortable and less fatiguing. How well certain FFB sticks do this for Ka-50 I am not sure since I never owned one. Also, with a FFB stick it can be used for other sims like IL-2 and FSX and the stick will react to different events, cannon fire, stall buffet etc.

Non FFB ex: In Ka-50 to simulate the above, you push stick forward to maintain a desired pitch while flying. You press trim, then release the stick to let it center. You now have a new center that is equal to where the stick was when you pressed trim. There is also another trim simulation option, but the above method is the default.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=69999&highlight=trim+force+feedback

NodUnit

Jun 25 2011, 00:13

- have to hold ALT to see interaction points, while the idea is OK it needs polishing as navigating in such way isn't comfortable.

Perhaps if it could be toggled instead.

metalcraze

Jun 25 2011, 00:21

Indeed. The best way will be to press ALT and have a cursor appear, only not stuck in the center like it is now but completely controllable by mouse and rotate the camera only when moving the cursor to edges of the screen. Interact then press ALT to get back to character control.

CarlGustaffa

Jun 25 2011, 01:21

Currently I use ALT to freelook. Not everyone have TrackIR (actually I do, but I don't have it hooked up right now), nor should it be a requirement. But I agree, center based clicking rather than free mouse is tiring to work with. Not sure what would be a great way to tackle it though.

Alex72

Jun 25 2011, 01:25

Dont know if i set it up right, but first impressions:

Very funny to fly! Felt pretty good so far.

Performance was down the drain though even with lowest view and object draw distance. Im guessing its the pic-in-pic? Looked like it was full quality in the mirror so that might explain it.

Anyway, a WIP test and the heli felt very fun to fly. Will test more tomorrow. Thanks BIS for the opportunity to play with your toys. :)

Big Dawg KS

Jun 25 2011, 01:32

Performance was down the drain though even with lowest view and object draw distance. Im guessing its the pic-in-pic? Looked like it was full quality in the mirror so that might explain it.

Hopefully it can be disabled/optimized for people who barely/never use it (like myself). :p

steven breen

Jun 25 2011, 01:48

Using the X360 controller, there is no response to pushing the right thumb stick down, so I can't nose down in the chopper. I'll try again after the next patch! :D

Im having the same problem. However, Ive had great fun flying with a (very old) joystick this evening!!

zooloo75

Jun 25 2011, 02:14

I love this new interface! I want it integrated into ArmA 2 OA/CO!!! Or at least the color mixer.

CameronMcDonald

Jun 25 2011, 02:52

Well, I finally pulled off a landing without dying horribly.

+1 on the throttle not being responsive enough - you can't recover quickly enough 90% of the time when you are touching down and your chopper faceplants.

Has anyone tried autorotating?

Also, if one of you Black Shark pros would like to explain trim and how the hell it works (slash, how to tame it in ToH:CP) in less than 2 paragraphs, you get a virtual beer.

Steakslim

Jun 25 2011, 03:05

I just use autotrim. I don't think my little 20 dollar joystick is made to handle it lol.

Muahaha

Jun 25 2011, 06:31

Can't even fly straight for me... tends to rotate in circle. Totally different from how OA handles helis. Need more practice

CameronMcDonald

Jun 25 2011, 06:49

Can't even fly straight for me... tends to rotate in circle. Totally different from how OA handles helis. Need more practice

Autotrim is your friend. :)

USSRsniper

Jun 25 2011, 07:41

Also, if one of you Black Shark pros would like to explain trim and how the hell it works (slash, how to tame it in ToH:CP) in less than 2 paragraphs, you get a virtual beer.

As I see it after playing for few minutes trim is completely different from DCS Ka-50... To be more correct trim is the same its the implementation which is different. Move your cyclic and rudder pedals where you want them to be and press Manual Trim Set. In game cyclic and rudder pedals will keep its position.

LeftSkidLow

Jun 25 2011, 08:05

Well, I finally had enough time to give this a go and I have some feedback. The following observations are based on my first hour using the community preview. For whatever it's worth, I do hold FAA helicopter pilot certificates but I only logged about 500 hours PIC when I moved on from aviation and flight instructing in 2008. Most of my time is in the Schweizer 300C/Cbi and a small amount is in the MD-500D and MD-520N.

Now that we go that out of the way, I'll start with the things I felt need work:

1) There appears to be an animated vibration for Effective Translational Lift around 25-35 knots as indicated on the airspeed indicator. The expected increase in lift after passing through ETL is either absent or extremely understated. Also, ETL should be effective sooner, at about 15-20 knots.
(Note: A helicopter performing poorly due to heavy weight and hot/high conditions will barely slog through ETL and the increased lift will be much less noticeable.)

2) There appears to be a joystick deadzone of the X and Y axis that hasn't been decreased from ArmA II. This deadzone will cause players to make too large of control movements, over compensate, and eventuallly swing around like a pendulum. It's possible this is just my hardware (Microsoft Sidewinder) but if not, I recommend shrinking the deadzone and implementing a deadzone slider control in the options.

3) I think the helicopter's tendency to keep rolling into a banked turn has been exaggerated. This applies somewhat to the behavior in a hover also. The rotor disc is a giant gyroscope, it doesn't like moving around much. At 100 knots on the airspeed indicator, this over rolling tendency is very evident in right hand turns, while left hand turns are not very effective and feel out of trim. There may be some nose dipping going on in turns also, I'd have to spend more time to verify this.

And some little things:
- the torque indicator moves but isn't going high enough (you probably knew this already)
-I don't know if that modeled pilot is supposed to be an American but you wouldn't find an American helicopter pilot caught dead wearing a scarf...ever.

I'd also like to say that I'm very impressed with how the flight model is coming along since ArmA II. I was quite surprised to find ground effect working when I tried to land.
On that note, my collective inputs work just fine below 50%, I'm not sure what the other users are talking about but I think they expect a helicopter to move like an airplane would at low thrust settings. Most helicopters will not leave the ground near 50% collective, you have to pull in a lot of pitch before the skids leave the ground.

USSRsniper

Jun 25 2011, 08:12

-Please put the HUD airspeed in knots, or maybe give the option.

Go to Options, Game Options, and there you can switch units from Metric to Imperial.

LeftSkidLow

Jun 25 2011, 08:35

Go to Options, Game Options, and there you can switch units from Metric to Imperial.

Thanks! I should have looked for that before posting, I'm removing it from the original post.

Muahaha

Jun 25 2011, 09:16

Autotrim is your friend. :)

Indeed, but the control is still very wild. Still trying to tame this beast on my logitech f3d stick...

But this engine is indeed built for flight sim, putting a few J35B in the editor with a few Su34. It's a blast.

PeterBitt

Jun 25 2011, 11:16

this is so much fun! thanks for letting us test this BI!

suggestion: now that you can open the doors of the heli, you should definitely allow get into the vehicle only when the door is open. this way it would be a very cool gameplay feature instead of a just visual feature.

sbsmac

Jun 25 2011, 11:22

;1965165']Check your difficulity settings, extended HUD was disabled for me by default :)

Ah - nice one ! There's also a few other 'helpers' available in 'recruit' such as the ability to disable the effect of wind.

Another tip for anyone using an analogue controller for the collective.. you need to map the 'brake' function to the bottom half of the controller if you want to get full control over the collective ! Landings are a bit easier since I worked that one out ;)

EDcase

Jun 25 2011, 11:29

Great job BiS, loving it sofar...

My comment at the moments would be: (Having only a few hours flying time in a Robinson R22)
-YAW(pedals) are not sensitive enough. I mean full deflection in a hover would spin the aircraft ALOT faster. (Full deflection would never be used tho perhaps in high crosswind)
-I think the roll effect is too high with auto-trim off.

Small detail but when main rotors are destroyed the engine should over rev. (go high pitch and then probably fail)

The main thing that hit me when I first flew a real heli is how ridiculously sensitive all the controls are. In reality the cyclic only needs to be moved millimeters in normal flight.

On a separate note:
I'm not so keen on new UI layout. For some reason I prefer the menus in the middle or right side.

Sethos

Jun 25 2011, 11:30

EDIT: Disregard this, think Analogue controls was the fix.

Remon

Jun 25 2011, 11:50

Ah - nice one ! There's also a few other 'helpers' available in 'recruit' such as the ability to disable the effect of wind.

Another tip for anyone using an analogue controller for the collective.. you need to map the 'brake' function to the bottom half of the controller if you want to get full control over the collective ! Landings are a bit easier since I worked that one out ;)

Can't thank you enough. I saw the brake (analogue) option in the controlls but couldn't figure what it was.

Le_CuLtO

Jun 25 2011, 11:58

2) There appears to be a joystick deadzone of the X and Y axis that hasn't been decreased from ArmA II. This deadzone will cause players to make too large of control movements, over compensate, and eventuallly swing around like a pendulum. It's possible this is just my hardware (Microsoft Sidewinder) but if not, I recommend shrinking the deadzone and implementing a deadzone slider control in the options.

+1
Or something like in any other flight sim: axis sensitivity.
http://en.wiki.riseofflight.com/images/thumb/e/e0/Curves_smooth_yaw.jpg/600px-Curves_smooth_yaw.jpg

http://en.wiki.riseofflight.com/index.php?title=Responses

MisTyK

Jun 25 2011, 13:01

little feddback:

a simulation aspect that makes the game very enjoyable to play, that's what missing a lot! Toh is on track, giving the sensation of realism and flight
without too much difficulty.

+ +: Interactive Model of the helicopter

+ Doors open (with open animation)
+ Control buttons (on / off switch and push / pull)
+ Stick axis (turn righ the stick turn right in game)
+ Left bottom mirror (fully work for back and look from under the heli)
+ Possibility to put on ligh the day and anti-collision test mod
+ One feels the weight of the helicopter that we must master
+ Breakable part of heli ( i broke mrot and now its not on heli; dont know where he is, but i break it ^^ )

Should be interesting to put the auto start mode only for easy and normal level game.

Only enter in heli when the door is open, i think its more immersive and give utility for the open interaction. Or open door for ejection

Maybe more detail in instrument panel ( fuel and engine status ) led control ( green/red )

Why not* an animation for entering in heli ( not directly teleport in, and the same anim can be used for other heli ) for a litlle little compirison, the opening and entering animation in the GTA look good ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0eG2pp-SkWA#t=83s

Only one bug, after put off the engine in ext view, go back to 1 view and the rotor continue to turn.

EDcase

Jun 25 2011, 13:29

I understand that this is early days but the shadow of the rotors on the ground are not nice.
I think it would be better not to have any shadow of rotors on the ground as they would be very faint and diffused anyway.

Friction with ground is a bit too high.

PurePassion

Jun 25 2011, 13:32

please note that you saw all of this in the original arma 2 (oa) engine and not the updated TOH one ;)

RoyaltyinExile

Jun 25 2011, 13:35

Hi everyone, thanks for your feedback so far.

Separating the 'narrative' feedback into distinct topic-based threads will make it a little easier to respond to; i.e., 'Throttle' or 'animations'.

We won't have time to go through it all really until next week, although there are some plans for releasing the next patch soon, maybe Monday or more likely Tuesday. For now, enjoy the new features and the rest of your weekends!

Best,
RiE

Ok, just a little note: when you're setting up the controls, be sure to map the 'thrust (analogue)' and 'brake (analogue)' to control your collective more accurately.

Why not* an animation for entering in heli ( not directly teleport in, and the same anim can be used for other heli )

Animations are very WiP, we'd expect to see getting in and out animations made possible in the final build.

Lastly, I can't emphasise enough to those having setup problems to read the 'read me' (http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=1957198&postcount=1). I'll try to make it a little clearer, but there's only so much you can do! :D

Hellfire257

Jun 25 2011, 13:52

No problems flying her what so ever really, apart from the odd brain fart where I see I'm flying in ARMA and switch back to 'retard' flight mode. I look forward to trying new builds so I can feedback properly. At the moment there isn't really much to say. Good stuff RIE and Co.

MisTyK

Jun 25 2011, 14:06

Hello,

do not see critical to our post, just suggestions from a small
mission. I am convinced that there is a lot of work we do not see cause it used in ArmA2 at the moment. We just sent message in a bottle, hoping that a developer can open it! :D

Tonci87

Jun 25 2011, 14:29

Well I wasn´t that interested in Take on until now, but this little preview has showed me how beautifull it is to fly around without blowing stuff up.
I really like the Freelook inside the helicopter, where you can activate switches by looking at them. The flying was different than the usual arma flying and I had to get used to it but it was really fun after a minute.
I totally crashed my first landing and was very surprised to see ground effect on my second one.
The Auto trimm function is very much needed since I fly with mouse and Keyboard, thank you for integrating it.

Now I have some wishes.

-Please include this Flightmodel in Arma 3
-Please make Community Previews for Arma 3 so that Bugs can be ironed out before the Release
-Please add this Object Viewdistance into the next OA patch
-And please keep Toh playable for people without Joysticks (its fine as it is now)

I really start to like this game and I´m looking forward to its release.

Muahaha

Jun 25 2011, 15:47

Now I have some wishes.

-Please include this Flightmodel in Arma 3
-Please make Community Previews for Arma 3 so that Bugs can be ironed out before the Release
-Please add this Object Viewdistance into the next OA patch
-And please keep Toh playable for people without Joysticks (its fine as it is now)

+1 to the above. Definitely think that it's a good move from BIS to have a BIS preview to sort out the bugs or have better game play from community feedback.

I wasn't really interested in helo sims that doesnt involve blowing things up, but TOH seems to be getting me enthusiastically wanted to try out more.

My feedback on TOH would be:

1. The green icons sometimes seems elusive such as the door icon or the rotor brake icon. would be good if something more obvious is put in place.
2. like some has mentioned, the animation of door is more for visual if it's not used when entering the helos.
3. Flying the helo is a steep learning process, maybe a novice or beginner difficulty can be created so that new players can start with the basics first then eventually learn the harder stuffs like trim.

Thanks BIS.

IceBreakr

Jun 25 2011, 16:08

Not to be missed by BIF:
Review of TOH: Preview by a pilot:
http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=121292

Daniel

Jun 25 2011, 16:49

Okay, i've just read the advice on remapping the thrust and brake to analogue. Thrust is really responsive now, i'm on the way to mastering mouse and keyboard flight.

CarlGustaffa

Jun 25 2011, 17:36

Well, I finally got the balls to get the dust off my old Logitech Sidewinder stick (the amount of dust suggested it was gone forever from suffocation, but lo and behold - it worked) and CH Pedals to try this out in its full glory. I figured the joystick would feel more natural than CH Yoke and CH Twin Throttles :p And it's the first time ever I use a stick in Arma.

Had a couple of crashes trying to setup the controls, and the non responsive collective issue was found in the analoge brake setting. First flight after that - takeoff, long flight, and landing, without crashing or using auto trim. Not pretty, not by a long shot, and the room stunk of sweat - I was exhausted when I finally touched down :D

After that, a few crashes as I got overconfident saying this was easy - it wasn't. Had a few successful flights since that. It appears to be fully possible to become a good pilot with practice, as long as you have the equipment - stick with good movement (mine feels a bit insufficient but it might be only the curves that are incorrect and I cannot set) and pedals. I can't even imagine a twister based stick be good enough for the precise inputs needed.

1) Not impossible to fly using only mouse and keyboard without autotrim, but will require some practice.
2) Forget not using autotrim if you don't have pedals (or is able to use a twist stick with success) and analogue collective control. I found no way to get control without over or under compensating using a keyboard only. Did others?

Requests:
1) Some kind of zoom and zoom reset control and also default/preferred FOV value. I.e. gradual zoom on + and - keys, with a reset to default FOV on the * key. Or mappable to controller so you hold a controller qualifier button while using the throttle (typically mapped to collective).
2) Default analogue throttle and analogue brakes should be mapped by default to the sticks throttle, unless an actual collective device is detected. I get the feeling many don't get the brake mapping and only get "half the response".
3) Let there always be an option in the settings that enables the current Engine On (debug) action. It will be welcome to the new pilots trying to learn to fly even in the finished product.

OMAC

Jun 25 2011, 17:50

I'm playing the preview (THANK YOU, BIS!) with OA 1.59 + 82128 beta using keyboard and mouse.

I cannot find a manual or boot camp, so I assume we are to guess at the controls.

I was able to successfully complete the flight path (albeit with broken rotors upon landing)! Yahoo. Now I can't land at all.

First, questions.

1) What are the advantages of having auto-trim off?

2) What does Manual trim set/release do, and how do I use them?

3) Is there a hud showing yaw, pitch, etc.? I see only the transparent overlay map which has no hud.

4) Will some helis have huds and others not?

5) Is TKOH meant to played optimally with a keyboard and mouse, or just a joystick?

6) What is Engine off (debug)?

Comments:

* landing (at least on the mountain top) is WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY too hard (even with auto trim on and in autohover mode). The sensitivities of the keyboard buttons are off and have to be tweaked and play tested EXTENSIVELY to make this game fun for a large audience.

* Much of the problems have to do with the sensitivity of the Q/Z thrust buttons, and to a lesser extent those of the X/C yaw buttons. The success of the entire game rides on how these buttons work. X/C are NOWHERE NEAR sensitive enough - I have to hold them down for 10 seconds just to rotate 90 degrees. Q/Z are WAY TOO SENSITIVE - hold them for a second or two and you're moving up/down uncontrollably fast. The controls in A2/OA are much easier to get a handle on, and are just sensitive enough to make flying helis incredibly fun. I assume that auto trim is always on in A2/OA.

* The heli seems way too light and blows over (rolls) WAY too easily, especially on landing. I know wind is a big factor, but there is no wind direction/speed indicator, so it is very difficult to compensate for.

* All too often, hovering at 1 m above the ground, speed <1, I tap Z, touch down, roll over, and blow up. NOT FUN.

Celery

Jun 25 2011, 18:01

Wind doesn't seem to have very much effect on the chopper. I set wind to 100 meters per second and could fly the helicopter fine.

KrAziKilla

Jun 25 2011, 18:32

I like it :)
Here my first tryes to fly the scenario mission.
Landing is a bit more complicated then in ArmA though, have to get a feeling for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVeLBUfhrUU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVeLBUfhrUU

Daniel

Jun 25 2011, 19:17

I'm playing the preview (THANK YOU, BIS!) with OA 1.59 + 82128 beta using keyboard and mouse...

* The heli seems way too light and blows over (rolls) WAY too easily, especially on landing. I know wind is a big factor, but there is no wind direction/speed indicator, so it is very difficult to compensate for.

* All too often, hovering at 1 m above the ground, speed <1, I tap Z, touch down, roll over, and blow up. NOT FUN.

Make sure you keep a hand on that mouse, use it for constant gentle corrections and use your keyboard for the bigger, more predictable moves. Make sure you've remapped your throttle and break keys too.

I can basically fly as I would in regular Arma 2 with just mouse and keyboard and auto-trim enabled. I can land accurately on the Khe Sanh anyway.

I can just about take off, circle once, and land again in roughly the same spot with Auto-Trim disabled, only just though.

OMAC

Jun 25 2011, 19:30

Thanks, Dan. Why should I remap throttle (Q/Z)? I'm not using brake. Why is that not already mapped to a key? S key raises nose to slow down. What does brake do?

Daniel

Jun 25 2011, 19:42

As it is now, Q and Z are mapped to Increase thrust and Decrease thrust respectively. Change these to Q = Thrust (analogue) and Z = Brake (analogue). That way you have digital control over your throttle; you hold Q for maximum collective and Z for minimum. Letting go knocks it to 50%. So you have to hold Q down OFP style for maximum speed. You get used to it though and start doing it instinctively. You don't have to worry about how much throttle you have at any point and you get instant response.

Note, any advice I give is purely for mouse and keyboard players. I intend to get proper peripherals myself once TakOH is released but till then i'll keep testing the previews this way.

CarlGustaffa

Jun 25 2011, 19:54

First, questions.
I'll have a go, but I'm no expert.

1) What are the advantages of having auto-trim off?
More realistic? Auto trim makes it easier as it's constantly (I'm guessing, but it appears so) adjusting trim so you don't have to apply forces to the controls.

2) What does Manual trim set/release do, and how do I use them?
I guess similar as an aircraft. Setting trim removes the need to apply pressure to the controls for a given part of the flight. Takeoff and landing require different forces applied. Like the rudder trim on an aircraft. During takeoff you can set it a bit to the side so you don't have to apply constant pressure on the pedals, but is more central oriented. As you pick up speed after takeoff, you center the rudder trim. I've never piloted a helicopter though, so maybe a bunch of wheels are too complicated to operate and you instead just "center the controls"? Not sure.

3) Is there a hud showing yaw, pitch, etc.? I see only the transparent overlay map which has no hud.
Right control h does it for me. It's not realistic, but as the real helicopter pilot said, it could be seen as a visual indicator for what goes on in the inner ear. May I suggest for future that when flying IMC, this one fades away and you have to rely on instruments? Without visual reference, the inner ear is not to be trusted (resulted in many tragic accidents).

4) Will some helis have huds and others not?
Guessing all will have this kind of HUD.

5) Is TKOH meant to played optimally with a keyboard and mouse, or just a joystick?
I had huge problems with mouse and keyboard, so I'm guessing joystick for cyclic and collective (assuming power irrelevance) and pedals is pretty much required at least without auto trim.

6) What is Engine off (debug)?
The only way (I know of) to turn off the engine. :)

Comments:

* landing (at least on the mountain top) is WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY too hard (even with auto trim on and in autohover mode). The sensitivities of the keyboard buttons are off and have to be tweaked and play tested EXTENSIVELY to make this game fun for a large audience.

This is a simulator, compared to Arma which is a game (at least wrt helicopter flying). It's not meant for a large audience, but for those wanting a realistic flying experience. Fly in Arma if this is too difficult. Ask this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOgZ2n9L_ZQ) guy if real flying is easy ;) Oh, and we are doing the testing, or at least partly.

* Much of the problems have to do with the sensitivity of the Q/Z thrust buttons, and to a lesser extent those of the X/C yaw buttons. The success of the entire game rides on how these buttons work. X/C are NO WHERE NEAR sensitive enough - I have to hold them down for 10 seconds just to rotate 90 degrees. Q/Z are WAY TOO SENSITIVE - hold them for a second or two and you're moving up/down uncontrollably fast. The controls in A2/OA are much easier to get a handle on, and are just sensitive enough to make flying helis incredibly fun. I assume that auto trim is always on in A2/OA.

As I said earlier, I had serious control issues with keyboard. With the small corrections needed, sometimes slowly done, sometimes more swiftly, I cannot imagine realistic flying using keyboard input. Get better controls. I have no objections to flying being this hard, it feels right, I just need more practice. But at my current level, I have no idea how I would be able to do hoisting and complex lifts :D Uhm, Arma is auto everything - auto trim (actually, there is no trimming at all), auto cyclic, auto anti torque, and auto collective. :)

* The heli seems way too light and blows over (rolls) WAY too easily, especially on landing. I know wind is a big factor, but there is no wind direction/speed indicator, so it is very difficult to compensate for.
Actually I found wind to be of minor effect. The wind indicator is in the HUD (right control+h). Too light? I've been in light aircraft (having some forward momentum) where turbulence (wind over mountains) being so heavy I doubted we would be able to land - the runway was all over the windscreen. And then, some 5-10 meters over the ground, it just stopped. On way home, had to get to about 3-4000 feet before we could attempt reading a map. Bouncy? Oh yeah!

* All too often, hovering at 1 m above the ground, speed <1, I tap Z, touch down, roll over, and blow up. NOT FUN.
Imagine the fun when it stops being like that :p Also, invest time in learning (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-9GW8OShclc) about the problems you have.

Here my first tryes to fly the scenario mission.

The (sideways) force is strong on this one :) Still, better than mine :D

Dimebug

Jun 25 2011, 20:10

Hello,

My first post here, and for feedback.

Well, i must say that i've been involved in many flight simulators development as a beta tester or a little bit more but my main job in this computer area is mainly create flight sim controllers and software. I've piloted several kind of flying stuff in real life and practice RC helo and planes.
From this little introduction to Take On, i fell good improvement of the flight model but still have some frustration. The way axes are managed was good enough for Arma, but if the axes are still managed like this for a software closer to an helo simulator, there's a serious risk of waste of energy somewhere.
You can have the best flight model, the most realistic one, if you cannot control the helo the right way, you will never be able to take advantage of the quality of the flight model. It's also important for the customer to feel "at home" at the first launch of the software, axes must be easy to map.
Yet, the way axes are internally managed is totally different from all other software. For example, to control the rudder,
You need to map one direction of the rudder movement to "Pedal Left" and the other to "Pedal right".. that can be a way but in flight, the result is a totally non linear reaction to axes movement not very compatible with smooth control, probably due to internal deadzone to avoid conflict. The throttle analog mapping is a pain, most of the people will only get 50% of the range working.
The simple (and chosen by others simulators developers) is simply to have an axis binding to command (for example rudder). You map the controller axis on it and that's all. When the axis reach is minimal value, you're at maximum deflection pedal left, when at max value, you're fully pressing the right pedal. If you need to invert the axis direction, you simply check a box.
If you want to have a deadzone, there's an adjustable parameter in the axes fine tuning menu or you can do it with the controller programming software.
Today 99% of the controller of the market have an internal deadzone. Why add a deadzone on another one, this just create poor control sensations and hide your work.
This is the first steps to have a better idea of the improvement and quality of the flight envelope.

Add a real time view of the axis value coming from the joystick and the one used by the simulator after Take On internal tools fine tuning (deadzone, sensibility...) could be a great feature.

For the other point, i totally agree with Mr Vaaf_rup, i would also like to point the fact that the speed vector doesn't seems to work like a real one, at least, the way it moves is much too mechanical, too straight, it should be floating a little bit, more reactive to external parameters like wind ect... here it seems to be the direct (and too quick) result of calculation between inputs and speeds without any care of intertia. Small and Smooth corrections on controller are the keys of Helo piloting. Please makes thoses parameters easy to reach.

OMAC

Jun 25 2011, 20:19

THANK YOU, Carl and Dan! For fun, try landing without using brake, like I was - NOT FUN. Dan's thrust/brake remapping appears to be vital. Brake should be automatically mapped to a key, eh? I was just using A2 controls - a manual would help.

Only pussies need a stick! ;) Keyboard/mouse only for me! I have no plans to buy "better controls" just for TKOH.

Flying without autotrim is fun, and I did it up the valley. For landing, though, I wouldn't recommend it.

Do you guys think that playing with the A2/OA beta patch is a good idea? Could that cause problems? I'm getting a lot of CTDs ("Display driver nvlddmkm stopped responding and has successfully recovered"), but overall, performance is good (avg around 44 FPS).

What visibility and object visibility settings do you guys recommend?

I'll remap those keys now and give landing another shot. Without using brake, I've landed without crashing only 2 out of about 50 times - both of those times with broken rotors. I'm playing on Veteran, so hard landings are not allowed.

Thanks again for your help and advice.

Edit:

Carl,

Obviously, "Engine off (debug)" is NOT the "only way" to turn off the engines - what about "Engine off (auto)" that I have been using? What is the difference between the two?

Dan,

After remapping the keys as you suggested, I landed perfectly THE FIRST TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://tinyurl.com/6y46ghf
http://tinyurl.com/6gaql7b

So, thanks to Dan, I now am 110% impressed with TKOH, even when using only keyboard and mouse - can't wait for the real deal to come out.

Since Q and Z are now remapped, will I have to map them back to what they were for normal A2 operation?

I hope that the real TKOH will have controls and key mapping completely separate from that of other installed BIS games, so that key mapping in TKOH does not affect that of other games.

Nikiller

Jun 25 2011, 21:05

hi,

I have no knowledge in fly sim the only stuff I know to pilot are ofp/ArmA choppers/planes so I will not try to be technical about fly model. I'm just a user who want to have fun even if the learning curve is long.

I fly with mouse+keyboard.

First time I tried it, I died 2 times just at start, not even made 10meters before crashing miserably on the nearest hill/rock. With more practice I managed to fly to the end (with some trouble sometimes) but I crashed my copter while trying to land and stabilize at the same time. Manual piloting is hard but fully possible for a player used to fly chopper/plane in ArmA2. I tried again and finally landed a bit hard (but I landed :)) all this without respecting the altitude and the speed. I tried again and it was finally very funny trying to respect altitude and speed even if any error is paid cash. I'm more confortable now but you must be much more carefull than in ArmA you need all your attention.

promising for a preview.

cya.

Nikiller.

derdoe

Jun 25 2011, 21:53

First of all a big thank you to BIS for involving the community into the development process.

Feedback:

Flight model:
- very nice
- could be a bit harder to control a helicopter
- more power to tail rotor, agile helicopters can spin 360 degrees within 2-3 seconds

Overall impression:
- helicopter skids dont look very realistic
- proper engine control (flight - idle - ground) is missing, no option to turn engine off

Wishes:
- more system depth, e.g. fuel pumps have to be switched on for helicopter engine to work, turning pumps off makes the engine go out etc.

[DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

Jun 25 2011, 22:03

OMAC

Jun 25 2011, 22:23

Another option for key mapping is to map the brake to a new key (like left Windows key), leave Q and Z as they are (+/- thrust), and map Throttle (analog) to Left Shift. I completed the flight successfully with that setup, and that way A2/OA mapping remains unaffected. I also like mouse 4 (near thumb) for zooming the view (optics).

nightsta1ker

Jun 25 2011, 22:40

For reference, I am a low time commercial helicopter pilot.

I am taking in mind that this is a WIP. My impression of the flight dynamics was not great. I am still trying to tweak my controls so that sensitivity is right and such, but I found that there was a null zone in my controls that I could not get rid of. This made it very difficult to get the helicopter to do what I wanted. Helicopters are extremely sensitive. All the pilot must do is THINK about moving the cyclic and the helicopter will respond. Sensitivity was there outside of the null zone, I just didn't like the fact that I would need to move my controls an eighth of an inch before the helo would suddenly respond. This could be user error and any advice is welcome.

Torque induced yaw is a bit excessive. This could be reduced by a quarter to a half and still be realistic.

Translating tendency is there. Good. Not bad for in the hover, but the effects of this also diminish with foreward airspeed and I found that the tendency of the helicopter to roll was strong even in foreward flight. If this was supposed to be dissymmetry of lift, I would not bother simulating that unless the aircraft exceeds its VNE (Velocity Never Exceed) because the flapping tendency of the rotors counters dissymmetry of lift within it's normal operating airspeed range (also, if it is supposed to be dissymmetry of lift the helicopter is banking the wrong way).

Turbulence/Transverse Flow Effect: That turbulence I got after accelerating through 20 knots, was that supposed to simulate Transverse Flow (fore and aft dyssimetry of lift on the rotor system as part of it passes through Effective Translational Lift, causing a chattery vibration) or was this just turbulence? I encountered it several times at different airspeeds etc, but noticed it was ALWAYS present at about 20 knots. In any case, this turbulence is more irritating than realistic. It is excessive in size and unnatural in frequency. Real turbulence is usually experienced as a pitching motion or slight vibration in the rotor system as parts of it pass through air of different temperature and density. It is usually a little more subtle.

Collective authority: I found that in foreward flight, when I lowered the collective all the way, the helicopter did not descend at a rate that it should. I would say, double the rate of descent with full down collective over what you have currently.

Other than that, the model looks great, I LOVE the working mirror, and I think with some work, this could be a really great game.

CarlGustaffa

Jun 25 2011, 23:43

Maybe something for the future, but the airports have ILS defined in the world config. On the HSI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwBB4g2Oqo0), why not make a working CDI and GS indicator that respons while within the "ILS cone" (I know it's a bit more advanced, but good enough for me). Helicopter pilots also fly instrument approaches :)

If we don't get tunable radios (I doubt we will, world not big enough), how about a working RMI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKDxb99Iuws) whose VOR indicator points to the center of the runway, and an ADF needle that points towards some fake closest NDB station along the extended runway centerline at about typical middle marker distance? Video has VOR needle pointing to a LLZ he claims? I didn't think that was actually possible?

Max255[PL]

Jun 26 2011, 00:01

To turn the engine off just set throttle back to off... At least it's what I'm doing...

rfc

Jun 26 2011, 00:54

Crossfire support doesn't work to me (works in A2:OA), I assume it's because the EXE is named differently and thus no known profile matches.

twisted

Jun 26 2011, 01:07

having great fun with this now. just made first landing which after crashing a lot was easier than i'd thought. Love to see a user made mission simulating a working airport - i tried but i lack the knowledge how. but even just having a few other planes flying around was pretty immersive. night flying is tricky but still have the pronounced popin of lights below - for a flight sim this would be best avoided.

EDcase

Jun 26 2011, 01:20

I can't believe that people want realistic flight characterisitcs etc and play with mouse and keyboard :eek:

If you are into flying how can you NOT use a joystick???????

Pathetic_Berserker

Jun 26 2011, 03:33

Wow! Actually passed the speed at altitude test after just a couple of tries but the landing sure aint pretty, just lucky if I can walk away from the wreck, lol.

Nice buzz,

Now I wonder how many of us are expecting these features to be snuck in with a new chopper to the next offical OA patch a' la' BIS camel.

4 IN 1

Jun 26 2011, 03:58

My question right now is how far did the FM came to represent the real life MD500

OMAC

Jun 26 2011, 04:23

In my GTX 295 SLI setup (two PCBs in one card), I noticed that usage of GPU 1 was mainly ~24%, and usage of GPU 2 was at 99%. Strange. In A2/OA, usage of both GPUs was even (near 100%). FPS was 43-49.

_____________________________________

Answers to some of my own questions, and more questions:

1) I get no hud with ^H, as I'm running on default Veteran difficulty.

2) The only way to see the fuel level is to look at the gauge on the instrument panel , right?

3) Myself and others have noticed strong clockwise rotational drift at slow speeds, necessitating constant pushing of the X key. This is apparently realistic (I'm no pilot). Is this because the rear rotor is on the left side of the heli? Does the manual trim set correct for this drift?

I still don't get the Manual trim set/release. Does that involve setting the trim based on info in the hud? With no hud in Veteran and Expert..... ??? Does one hold down the X, C, A, or D keys to compensate for trim and then set the Manual trim?

4) I strongly recommend having Brake bound to some key by default, and a tip at upper right screen in the demos reminding new users that brake is essential to land the heli, not just the reduce thrust X key as is the case in A2/OA. That will most likely reduce frustration in ToH noobs (like me this morning).

5) I also recommend a demo scenario with some miniguns, Hydras, and Hellfires on the chopper, just for fun, and of course some poor souls and vehicles to utterly destroy. :681: (just kidding)

zooloo75

Jun 26 2011, 05:39

I can't believe that people want realistic flight characterisitcs etc and play with mouse and keyboard :eek:

If you are into flying how can you NOT use a joystick???????

Lol, this is coming from a community whom is mostly playing this for the FPS or infantry factor :P

Spec_Ops_Sniper

Jun 26 2011, 06:28

Hi Guys, i uploaded a video my friend made. His impression is that it is AWESOME!!!111one

http://youtu.be/ARiwDAV8Tjk

sbsmac

Jun 26 2011, 08:30

Hi Guys, i uploaded a video my friend made. His impression is that it is AWESOME!!!111one

http://youtu.be/ARiwDAV8Tjk

Very nice - interesting to contrast his flying with my 'drunken bumblebee' style :)

Tonci87

Jun 26 2011, 11:22

I really don´t know why I should get myself a Joystick?
Lets see the benefits of a joystick:
There is a joystick->I have my mouse, works great if the game is designed in a good way
Ther are buttons on a joystick->I have my keyboard with way more buttons

EDcase

Jun 26 2011, 11:29

Lol, this is coming from a community whom is mostly playing this for the FPS or infantry factor :P
What gave you that false idea? Why do you think there are so many people asking for more flight realism????

I really don´t know why I should get myself a Joystick?
Lets see the benefits of a joystick:
There is a joystick->I have my mouse, works great if the game is designed in a good way
Ther are buttons on a joystick->I have my keyboard with way more buttons
If you like flying then YES, you need a joystick. Do you know of any real aircraft that are controlled with keyboad and mouse?????
We are off topic so I'm not going to discuss this any more.

Celery

Jun 26 2011, 12:02

If you like flying then YES, you need a joystick. Do you know of any real aircraft that are controlled with keyboad and mouse?????
We are off topic so I'm not going to discuss this any more.

No, you don't need a joystick because the devs have done the mouse and keyboard controls so well. There are m+kb pilots out there who will wipe the floor with most joystick users any day of the week.

Liquidpinky

Jun 26 2011, 12:54

No, you don't need a joystick because the devs have done the mouse and keyboard controls so well. There are m+kb pilots out there who will wipe the floor with most joystick users any day of the week.

That may be true, but I know who I would rather be sat beside in a real helicopter.

Tonci87

Jun 26 2011, 12:57

Remember Men in black 2 where Will Smith controls the car with a gamepad? :D

CarlGustaffa

Jun 26 2011, 14:05

Do you know of any real aircraft that are controlled with keyboad and mouse?????

I don't know many keyboard and mouse infantry either, so pretty irrelevant. For regular Arma flying, joystick is not a must. But with a more realistic flight model, you need to do constant small adjustments, which is not possible (at least for me) without analogue throttle (collective in this case) and rudder pedals.

Try imagining this with mouse and keyboard (digital input on rudders? yikes) :p
-7nHh7KicC8

JumpingHubert

Jun 26 2011, 14:35

is there a tweak to eliminate the death zone of x-y-axis?

OMAC

Jun 26 2011, 15:34

I still have problems landing where I often roll over to the right after touching down. Hard to control that roll. Happens even if brake is engaged. Do I have to have the throttle lower to prevent the roll? Compensate more for the roll with the A key? Am I still touching down with too much speed? I think careful use of brake and throttle (analog) is required to touch down VERY softly.

[DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

Jun 26 2011, 17:34

try using auto hover during the last few moments of landing.

all my control issues were resolved by changing the Q and Z keybinds to analogue Thrust and Brake. I was able to land on the preview mission objective the very first time the keybinds were modified. I had landed one time without the analogue Q and Z, but it was very difficult for keyboard/mouse, and after 4 failures.

OMAC

Jun 26 2011, 19:05

-Ziggy-;1966719']try using auto hover during the last few moments of landing.

all my control issues were resolved by changing the Q and Z keybinds to analogue Thrust and Brake. I was able to land on the preview mission objective the very first time the keybinds were modified. I had landed one time without the analogue Q and Z, but it was very difficult for keyboard/mouse, and after 4 failures.

As I wrote earlier, I also landed perfectly the first time after remapping those keys!

However, see this post for the settings I use now that maintain the analog and standard thrust keys.

http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=1966105&postcount=166

sbsmac

Jun 26 2011, 21:17

I am still trying to tweak my controls so that sensitivity is right and such, but I found that there was a null zone in my controls that I could not get rid of. This made it very difficult to get the helicopter to do what I wanted. Helicopters are extremely sensitive. All the pilot must do is THINK about moving the cyclic and the helicopter will respond. Sensitivity was there outside of the null zone, I just didn't like the fact that I would need to move my controls an eighth of an inch before the helo would suddenly respond. This could be user error and any advice is welcome.

I hooked up my X52 tonight. After going to Controls/Controllers/Customize and maxing out the sliders on sensitivity for all axes I found things a lot more responsive but there still seemed to be a little deadzone at the center of the joystick.

Regardless, I'm enjoying this a lot. If you head 90degrees from your initial heading in the example scenario you can hop over the mountains to the airport which is a great place to practice hovering and landings :)

Jake_Krieger

Jun 26 2011, 23:39

OMAC

Jun 27 2011, 00:40

Is it normal that i have to press my left pedal all the time .

Same for me - this is a known issue, I believe.

All those CTDs were caused by ATOC=7, as it did in A2/OA. Setting it to 0 in my ToH config file stops the CTDs. An issue with SLI, perhaps?

"Display driver nvlddmkm stopped responding and has successfully recovered."

I made a new ToH profile to keep the settings separate from my A2/OA settings, but now ToH crashes every time on exit. Something to do with video settings I think. A2/OA videos play sometimes as I am about to exit ToH! :mad::j:

Exception code: C0000005 ACCESS_VIOLATION at 0044547F
graphics: D3D9, Device: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 295, Driver:nvd3dum.dll 8.17.12.7533
resolution: 1680x1050x32

Mods: TKOH_preview
Distribution: 0
Version 1.59.82161
Fault address: 0044547F 01:0004447F C:\Program Files\Bohemia Interactive\ArmA 2\tkoh_preview\takeonhpreview.exe
file: intro2
world: takistan
Prev. code bytes: CC 51 56 8B F1 8B 06 85 C0 74 20 8B C8 83 CA FF
Fault code bytes: F0 0F C1 11 4A 75 0E 8B 0D 20 70 D4 00 8B 11 50

Registers:
EAX:00000001 EBX:00D69620
ECX:00000001 EDX:FFFFFFFF
ESI:0B6EF8C4 EDI:0000000A
CS:EIP:0023:0044547F
SS:ESP:002B:016BFBA0 EBP:016BFC18
DS:002B ES:002B FS:0053 GS:002B
Flags:00010286

ToH didn't crash at all the first day. Maybe I'll reinstall, make new profile? Any ideas?

nightsta1ker

Jun 27 2011, 02:27

Is it normal that i have to press my left pedal all the time . The controls are very sensitive and the controls are very hard . I just cant enjoy flying with the current version . Please try to fix the controls and make it better .

Seems you guys are becoming familiar with the wonderful challenges of helicopter flight. That right yaw tendency that requires left pedal to counter it is called Torque Induced Yaw. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. When the engine turns the rotor blades counter clockwise, the nose of the helicopter wants to turn clockwise, That's why there is a tail rotor, and as you increase collective, you also need to increase the left pedal to counter the additional torque.

As far as the roll goes OMAC, that is called Translating Tendency, and is caused by tail rotor thrust which pushes the helicopter to the right and also adds a rolling moment. Left cyclic is required to compensate for this in a hover and one skid (the left, on counterclockwise turning rotorcraft) is going to touchdown first, then the right. It needs to be carefully done or the helicopter will roll over as you are experiencing. It seems alot of you are trying to do all of this with a keyboard. If you are not able or willing to buy at least a cheap joystick, you are going to have alot of problems with the realistic flight physics. Either turn your settings to easy mode, or get a joystick is my recommendation. Of course, with ALOT of practice, you might actually figure out how to do it. But I wouldn't waste my time.

BIS is doing a fantastic job of implementing real helicopter behaviors into their game. Unfortunately real helicopters are not very easy to fly, there are alot of complicated things going on and the two that I mentioned above are very basic and really just scratching the surface. I have several large volume books on the subject that have taken me months to read (then re-read because I flushed half of it). Everyone screams for realism, then they complain when they need to hold left pedal and discover that the helicopter wants to roll over on touchdown! Welcome to reality boys!

OMAC

Jun 27 2011, 02:47

nightsta1ker

Jun 27 2011, 02:54

Thanks for the info about rolling on landing!! So hitting the X key (left cyclic) should help, eh?

I'm not complaining at all. Just trying to learn the complicated ropes. While I have completed the flight on Veteran quite a few times now, landing is the real hard part, and I am sure it is made more difficult without a stick (all those keys to press simultaneously!) Landing on a slope makes things even more difficult (it's hard to get exactly onto the flat space on the ridgetop).

I have never "screamed for realism." All I'm looking for is a fun game, and I love the way BIS makes games. If BIS makes it, I will buy and learn it. And I know extraordinarily little about flying helis.

I removed and re-installed the demo, and I still get the crash on close. I'm now playing with OA 1.59 + 79600 beta.

I was generalizing a bit and not directing those comments strictly at you. Everyone has their interests and expectations. The helicopter behavior battle has been fought on many a forum for many a game. The real pilots, who know all the squirelly tendencies, and fight viciously to have them replicated correctly always get shot down by the average gamer who does not realize that needing to add left pedal IS realistic and not some sort of glitch. The Dodo Simulations 206 for FSX is THE most realistic add on for that game, and probably a close competitor for any other helicopter sim/game out there (in fact, I doubt anything other than Blackshark has done it better), and people were complaining INCESSANTLY that the model was F'd up because they needed left cyclic and pedal to hover, not realizing that is the way it is SUPPOSED to fly.

No offense to you or any other gamer types. Just letting you know, they are shooting for realism on this one, and what they have so far (though a little rough around the edges) is realistic.

OMAC

Jun 27 2011, 04:05

CarlGustaffa

Jun 27 2011, 04:33

I'm now playing with OA 1.59 + 79600 beta.

Why such an old beta version? As of now the latest on is build 82128.

Zipper5

Jun 27 2011, 05:46

79600 is much more stable than the current patches for some people, including myself.

nightsta1ker

Jun 27 2011, 05:48

Amazingly, I can now fly that heli to some extent, even with all that realism. It sure seems that the vast majority of people in this forum are REAL EXPERTS at flying real helis and/or playing heli sims. They are coming to the right place! I'm sure BIS is quite happy about that, and all the attention the preview is getting. I'm surprised at the disdain heaped on those heli sim noobs who don't have sticks (like me). Lots of purists here. Maybe I will go out and get one! What is the best make/model?

Your post is dripping with sarcasm. I am sorry if you took my snobbiness to be disdain. Maybe I am a snob. I apologize if you thought I was talking down to you. However, if you read through the various forum threads posted on this game I would say the "noobs who don't have sticks" and the "purists" are about 50/50, and both are heaping loads of disdain on each other, to the point where it is counterproductive. Personally, I think there is room for all of us. Can't we all just get along? :butbut: There are tons of makes and models, some are crappy but cheap, some are fantastic but very expensive. There may be some happy mediums in there too. Right now I am using a Logitech extreme 3d pro, with saitek pedals but I will soon be using custom built heli controls (full cyclic,collective and pedal combo, very expensive, but hey, I'm a purist).

Innomadic

Jun 27 2011, 06:05

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrDQUwbDpOg

My take on the community preview.

edit: Also since its obviously possible to put this into A2, reckon its possible this could be modded into Arma 2?

twisted

Jun 27 2011, 06:19

really enjoying the FM without autotrim. the more i muck around with it the less i notice having to hold left twist on my joystick to compensate for that movement of chopper. i have a cheapish joystick (T1600) partnered up to the throttle of a x52 (the x52 joystick has become way too loose very soon over time and too expensive to replace/fix) and its real enjoyable to fly. can't wait to see how far BIS can take this.

one of things i'd like off the cuff is to hear the engine change as i pull on cyclic etc as right now its pretty monotone. also what's with the shaking of the cockpit at random - what does it signify? its great to have but it should be providing feedback about the Fm and environment not a seemingly random occurrence - or maybe i just don't understand it enough.

Mr Burns

Jun 27 2011, 06:27

also what's with the shaking of the cockpit at random - what does it signify?

I guess it´s the airframe wanting to part from the rotor because you are flying too gung-ho .... hopefully one day it actually will do come apart once BI has fleshed out the damage model moar.

http://simhq.com/forum/images/graemlins/default/copter.gif

Max Power

Jun 27 2011, 09:40

If the helicopter is of the free turbine type, I don't think the rpm should change very much if at all.

You don't have to hold left cyclic all the time if you set a key or joystick putting to set your manual trim. Then it's just a matter of zeroing in on a good trim setting for your current flight situation.

I have the joystick deadzone problem as well. I have an x52. I have made a devheaven ticket about it. If you have that problem and have a devheaven account, or wish to make one, vote up that issue.

From reading the thread and the comments of the real helicopter pilots who have given their feedback, the shaking animation seems to be from turbulence from air pockets and the point at which the helicopter is achieving effective transitional lift.

SUBS17

Jun 27 2011, 10:27

Awesome work BI the preview is quite good it would be cool to have that FM in Arma2. I also have the impression that it is indeed much more complex than what can be seen in the preview by some of the options.:yay:

Sheps

Jun 27 2011, 10:40

First and foremost, this is a comment from someone that knows absolutely nothing about helicopters or any form of aircraft.

After fiddling around with the preview for about 30 minutes, I'm having a really hard time seeing how this can be fleshed out into a full game. Turn on Auto Trim and the flying isn't all that dissimilar from the original ARMA heli's.

Maybe I'm missing something but this game feels, by the day, more and more like some sort of April Fools joke that refuses to reveal the prank.

Mr Burns

Jun 27 2011, 11:23

After fiddling around with the preview for about 30 minutes, I'm having a really hard time seeing how this can be fleshed out into a full game. Turn on Auto Trim and the flying isn't all that dissimilar from the original ARMA heli's.

Don´t like it? Avoid it.
Everythings fine for somone who wants to be challenged by a game rather than ... well, just looking at it´s shiny graphics.

Remember OFP? The time it was released it was mighty challenging too, some loved it, some didn´t.

From reading the thread and the comments of the real helicopter pilots who have given their feedback, the shaking animation seems to be from turbulence from air pockets and the point at which the helicopter is achieving effective transitional lift.

There´s also that "mission objective" of not making your passengers vomit on the flight to their destination, was mentioned during one of those interview/preview thingies, so it could aswell be associated to the wobbly air stuff.

Theres this game for PSP, Pilot Academy, which does sort of the same - make airbus barrel roll, red bar fills up, boom mission failed - game really sucked arse btw :D

Innomadic

Jun 27 2011, 12:00

I have the joystick deadzone problem as well. I have an x52. I have made a devheaven ticket about it. If you have that problem and have a devheaven account, or wish to make one, vote up that issue.

Use the programming software and slave the mouse to the joystick (so that joystick inputs are translated as mouse inputs). Works a treat.

OMAC

Jun 27 2011, 15:37

Your post is dripping with sarcasm. I am sorry if you took my snobbiness to be disdain. Maybe I am a snob. I apologize if you thought I was talking down to you. However, if you read through the various forum threads posted on this game I would say the "noobs who don't have sticks" and the "purists" are about 50/50, and both are heaping loads of disdain on each other, to the point where it is counterproductive. Personally, I think there is room for all of us. Can't we all just get along? :butbut: There are tons of makes and models, some are crappy but cheap, some are fantastic but very expensive. There may be some happy mediums in there too. Right now I am using a Logitech extreme 3d pro, with saitek pedals but I will soon be using custom built heli controls (full cyclic,collective and pedal combo, very expensive, but hey, I'm a purist).

Actually, my last post wasn't meant to be sarcastic. I have no disdain for experts and purists, just respect (although I think having a joystick for a home computer is a bit nerdy). I think that the keyboard/mouse controls are good enough to not necessitate a joystick unless one MUST fly with autotrim off all the time for purist reasons. I like to fly up the canyons under 50m alt. and >150 knots with autotrim off, and kick in the autotrim on landing and takeoff only, sometimes only on landing.

Very importantly, I haven't figured out how to set the manual trim, which could alleviate the constant/heavy left pedal. That skill must be mastered.

These g-damn crashes on exit are really bothering me. I set my interface and game resolutions to the same value (1680x1050), but that didn't stop the crash. I think it is some interference with A2 CO, but I don't know.

JumpingHubert

Jun 27 2011, 17:12

throttle, x and y axis needs simple setting for curve and deathzone.

EDcase

Jun 27 2011, 19:47

My earlier post about needing a joystick was not to put anyone down or feel superior.
What I meant was that its been designed as the best tool for controlling aircraft and is also available for our PCs.
Its just a fact that keyboards are not analogue so you can't control how much yaw pedal you are exerting and in a helicopter that is especially important.

OMAC: What makes you think its nerdy having a joystick????

The best ones like Thrustmaster Warthog are a bit extreme I must say but reviews say its good so if you have the money....
Try a cheap one first maybe.

It sure seems that the vast majority of people in this forum are REAL EXPERTS at flying real helis and/or playing heli sims.
I know you weren't being sarcastic but remember that most of us are here because we like heli sims so naturally want the more realistic/difficult experience.

Sethos

Jun 27 2011, 20:04

Am I the only one with some inconsistent sounds when viewing the helicopter from the outside?

It's like, when you're directly behind it you hear the turbine / exhaust ( Whatever it is ) but it'll cut out and sound more like when viewing it from the side. When viewing it from the side it'll also rotate between these sounds - It's like there isn't any correlation between the on-screen action and the sounds when seeing it in 3rd person.

PurePassion

Jun 27 2011, 20:17

Maybe I'm missing something but this game feels, by the day, more and more like some sort of April Fools joke that refuses to reveal the prank.

lol wut u serios (http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRptZYLlocdbykZ3DIwAjO4E7saP1O-1OQ-8JV9gbVpHPnG3tZv5Q)?!?!

@<hidden>

== Known issues ==
* Helicopter sounds are too soft in interior view and loop badly in exterior view

;)

CarlGustaffa

Jun 27 2011, 20:18

No, sounds like sounds is using a bit of trickery at the moment. I expect these things to be fixed eventually. Try opening the map :)

Some feedback:
The lights look really really bad imo. Inside you have a big nasty flare going on. External lights when on should use an illuminated texture for navigational lights and even animated for rotating/flashing beacons, and flashing strobes. Currently we have a glow object with a black thing inside.

There are some really, really nice new parameters and commands available (like air density etc, proving some aspects are planned for), but I can't find anything about ambient air temperatures or new weather things (new fog commands seem to be visual only).

PurePassion

Jun 27 2011, 20:18

snap my damn connection caused a double post... :

Sethos

Jun 27 2011, 20:27

@<hidden>

;)

Ah didn't see that, thanks man. :)

PurePassion

Jun 27 2011, 20:30

no Problem, youre welcome!

and you can be sure BIS will fix that in the main game release

BoboCZ

Jun 27 2011, 21:28

Todays impressions. I learn that my fly skills are every day better and better. Everything what TKOH need is training. To everybody who complain that control is not precise, I recommend set sensitivity for x,y axis to about 75%. Then you need drill, drill and again drill.

Extended HUD is really helpful. You have to eye circle and try to get it to "volley". Initially I have to sometimes hold joystick with both hands, now I hold it with one hand, maybe joystick is more loose. You really need solid wrist for fine manoeuvring. Rest after longer fly.

First try slowly fly on airfield, slowly turn machine, try land an so on. When you are fell more comfortable with helicopter. You can try something harder.
For example I tried land in front of hotel at Chernogosrsk. First it was really difficult, I was happy that I "fell" there. Now this task is "quite" easy and I'm able to land on top of the hotel.

Today I was able fly where I want and not where chopper want. I don't know how to describe it, but now I'm able to use helicopters momentum, it is like you gently kick it to opposite side and chopper do what I want (mostly :p).

I have to compliment FM, dunno if it's realistic, but it's enjoyable, especially fly near ground is pleasure. I have not problem fly through forest path and even it's seems more easy then with Arma2 FM. Actually helicopter with momentum is more predictable and controllable.
One thing I'd like to ask someone with flying experience, it seems that helicopter descent rate is too slowly, is it right?

I summary it, to everybody who thought that fly is hard, train, train and again train, you will soon realise that it's gonna be easier. Even pedal is not necessary, I have only logitech extreme 3d Pro joystick and it looks like satisfactory for precise flying (I'm afraid that will not have long durability :)).
I'm really looking forward to full game.

NeMeSiS

Jun 27 2011, 22:04

I finally got around to trying it today. I am flying with an XBOX1 controller which works nicely(Had to map increase and decrease throttle, added them to the triggers, also had to map turn left/right myself i think), though one suggestion i havent seen yet: Some Force Feedback during the turbulence (or whatever it is) would be nice, maybe also when you are overstressing the helicopter and you are breaking it or something, once that is implemented.

Overall the flying was quite enjoyable, even though i really suck at it. I dont know what auto trim does but it at least it prevents me from turning upside down all the time. (I could compensate for it for a while by turning left all the time which made me go straight forward... :p )

JumpingHubert

Jun 27 2011, 22:32

, I recommend set sensitivity for x,y axis to about 75%. .yes, 75% is the sweet spot between too big deathzone and exploded sensitivity the first centimeters beside the minimized deathzone.

Liquidpinky

Jun 27 2011, 23:03

I have noticed that the instrument dials go nuts when an AI is piloting, and maybe you need to tone down the animations for AI pilots. Looks like they are trying to get rid of some frustration if you know what I mean.
Also, once an AI has been piloting and you get into the pilots seat, the switch's action positions have moved to the left by about a quarter of a cockpits width.
If you turn all the systems off and get out, when you get back in the engine instantly restarts like the debug start up. This deosn't happen however if an AI pilot has shut down the helicopter first.

Still enjoying the preview though, looking forward to the updates.

CarlGustaffa

Jun 28 2011, 00:06

Yeah found that out too, 75% is nice setting for my old Logitech Sidewinder stick. Now I can park inside hangars. Before I was lucky if I landed on the airport, but at least now I know why airports are so large :D

OMAC

Jun 28 2011, 00:38

Based on the preview and knowledge of A2/CO/PMC/BAF, if there was any game for which I would consider buying a stick, ToH is it.

Frankly, I was going to buy ToH when it came out even without a demo, but now that we will have a series of constantly-improving free preview demos of awesome quality, I am TOTALLY STOKED for ToH.:dancehead:

[DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

Jun 28 2011, 00:58

SLI doesn't work unless the application is renamed.
I renamed it to arma2oa.exe and it works.

:whistle:

nightsta1ker

Jun 28 2011, 02:20

OMAC

Jun 28 2011, 02:36

-Ziggy-;1967932']SLI doesn't work unless the application is renamed.
I renamed it to arma2oa.exe and it works.

:whistle:

What????? I'm using SLI, but am having a terrible crashing problem - could this be the cause?

Uh-oh, please reply BIS!

I will try this idea now and see if it fixes my crash on exit problem.

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=121432

Edit:

No, renaming the .exe to arma2oa doesn't solve my crashing problem.

CarlGustaffa

Jun 28 2011, 04:56

Please change the font. Yeah, of all things, right? :) Unsure of resource, but ampersands (&) look extremely weird.

Liquidpinky

Jun 28 2011, 11:32

-Ziggy-;1967932']SLI doesn't work unless the application is renamed.
I renamed it to arma2oa.exe and it works.

:whistle:

SLi works for me without renaming the exe.
I always monitor performance with EVGA Precision and it appeared to be working both cards quite evenly.

OMAC

Jun 28 2011, 13:39

In my GTX 295 SLI setup (two PCBs in one card), I noticed that usage of GPU 1 was mainly ~24%, and usage of GPU 2 was at 99%. Strange. In A2/OA, usage of both GPUs was even (near 100%). FPS was 43-49.

The above suggests that SLI is indeed not working properly, although the game seems to play fine (except for crashes on exit - another problem).

---------- Post added at 07:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:30 AM ----------

When flying with auto trim off, there is a frequent need to correct a rightward roll by pressing the A key (bank left). Is this normal in heli flight?

[DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

Jun 28 2011, 15:10

SLi works for me without renaming the exe.
I always monitor performance with EVGA Precision and it appeared to be working both cards quite evenly.

wow, that is odd!
I use the same app to monitor gpu usage, but I did have to alt tab to view it. The brief graph history showed the 2nd card doing nothing, until I renamed the exe.

SLI GTX 275, for reference.
i have to go back and verify my observation, for my peace of mind! :o

OMAC, just for shits and giggles, you should try renaming the exe and tell us your result (gpu usages).
please, and thanks.

OMAC

Jun 28 2011, 15:23

Will do.

DirtyDeeds - you are correct. Renaming the exe to arma2oa makes both gpus run (more or less) evenly.

http://tinyurl.com/3skvqxl

CMB Unit 01

Jun 28 2011, 15:26

Really enjoying the preview. The updated flight model is a lot of fun. Still have to work on landing properly with it, though! :p

OMAC

Jun 28 2011, 15:34

All I can say is use brake, slow your drop with analog throttle, and use bank left ("A") when landing to have left skid hit ground first, or you'll roll over. This advice comes from experts in this thread.

Liquidpinky

Jun 28 2011, 16:00

-Ziggy-;1968401']wow, that is odd!
I use the same app to monitor gpu usage, but I did have to alt tab to view it. The brief graph history showed the 2nd card doing nothing, until I renamed the exe.

Maybe my default global 3d settings are spot on perhaps.
Actually now that I have looked, I have both Take On Helicopters(takeonh.exe) and Take On Helicopters(takeonhdemo.exe) profiles in my NVIDIA drivers. They are version 275.33 currently.

[DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-

Jun 28 2011, 16:04

Maybe my default global 3d settings are spot on perhaps.
Actually now that I have looked, I have both Take On Helicopters(takeonh.exe) and Take On Helicopters(takeonhdemo.exe) profiles in my NVIDIA drivers. They are version 275.33 currently.

yep, that explains it. I'm using v 266.58

so... use the latest drivers or rename the exe. I should probably update, eh? :o

Focha

Jun 29 2011, 00:32

I can't run this. When I start the sim it says;

"No entry '.profilePathDefault'."

I click OK but the sim CTD.

I am running Win 7 64 bit. Is it because of DX11? Also my GPU is not DX10 but it's a DX9 card. Nvidia 9600 GT 512.

OMAC

Jun 29 2011, 00:42

-Ziggy-;1968451']yep, that explains it. I'm using v 266.58

so... use the latest drivers or rename the exe. I should probably update, eh? :o

I AM using the most recent drivers (275.33), and, unless I rename the exe, my gpus are not running evenly (see image below). How does one check to see what games have NVIDIA SLI profiles (nothing related to ToH is listed in the NVCP)?

http://tinyurl.com/3rz2429

CarlGustaffa

Jun 29 2011, 00:57

Please fix the mouse cursor bug where it jumps double it's current location each time it is shown. I.e. each time you hit escape to bring up the menu or use the debug interface, any location of the mouse offset from center is doubled.

Am I the only one suffering from this? And the suffer is huge...

OMAC

Jun 29 2011, 02:10

Maybe my default global 3d settings are spot on perhaps.
Actually now that I have looked, I have both Take On Helicopters(takeonh.exe) and Take On Helicopters(takeonhdemo.exe) profiles in my NVIDIA drivers. They are version 275.33 currently.

How is this possible? The preview didn't even exist when 275.33 came out. :confused:

Even if those previews exist, they don't match the name of the takeonpreview.exe! How could SLI work properly in that case?

Yes, now I see them. I unchecked the "show only programs on my computer" and they appeared. However, I still don't know how those would work for takeonpreview.exe, unless you rename it. In any case, the NVCP doesn't think they are on my computer, which they are not.

kylania

Jun 29 2011, 05:33

Max Power

Jun 29 2011, 08:37

How is this possible? The preview didn't even exist when 275.33 came out. :confused:

Even if those previews exist, they don't match the name of the takeonpreview.exe! How could SLI work properly in that case?

How do I get those profiles (or check to see if I have them already)?

Evidently they were testing the game before they put out the preview.

Focha

Jun 30 2011, 13:57

Read the readme.txt Focha, you're starting the game wrong.

Thanks for the help. I figure it out. I read the read me file but did not clearly understand how to start it... The read me file should be more cleaner and simple.

OMAC

Jul 1 2011, 02:48

You might also try renaming the EXE to TakeOnH.exe, so the Nvidia drivers see it properly. This does mean changing the shortcut also.

BIS Developer DnA confirms that the preview exe should be renamed to TakeOnH.exe (or perhaps takeonhdemo.exe) to get SLI to work with NVIDIA drivers.

NeMeSiS

Jul 1 2011, 13:51

Not sure if its a known issue, but the waves at the shore dont seem to work.

EagleEye[GER]

Jul 1 2011, 15:45

The new public build 82390 is available! THX BI!

Is it me or do we need no more pedal compensation when raising collective? Its absolutely stable now without autotrim and more armaish me thinks. Don`t know if it is a good sign, though.:confused:
What do you guys think?

SJ_MarcL

Jul 1 2011, 15:59

Gotta say guys, you've done it again!

When I first tried it i was utterly gobsmacked! The flight model is just wonderful. The UI in cockpit is very intuitive. The manual trim method is very conveniently made(Albeit requires just a tiny input after trimming to set it where it's supposed to be). And back to the flight model. It was exactly what i expected. Challenging on one hand, but offering all characteristics of rotary wing flight you can take advantage of, ground effect and all. Yes, the ArmA flight model was far easier to get figured out in a very short amount of time but did some incredible goofs and even provided worse performance at times than a chopper sim flight model would. Since this is your first Chopper sim i was expecting something good, but reasonably clunky. Not the case, I am utterly sold. Sold since i saw the rotor pitch change on the ground actually :D . My only criticism so far is that the turbulence vibration effect seems too canned, but I'm not going further into it since it's a very early release.

And on a side note. Since i saw that you were considering applying the flight model as a difficulty setting to ArmA 3 all I have to say is; DO IT! I for one would absolutely love it.

Thanks again
MarcL

KeyCat

Jul 1 2011, 16:56

Just grabbed the update (thanks!) and I know this have been mentioned before...

- DirectX 10 February 2010 is required

I run the preview fine on my computer (DX9) but wonder if this a typo or will the final ToH require DirectX 10?

Now back to testing, curious if that somewhat wierd shaking (could find any direct pattern) is changed, that being said I've never flown any helicopter in RL so maybe things just are as they should.

/KC

cm.

Jul 1 2011, 16:59

flight model is really good :yay:

would fucking LOVE this in arma (in response to your recent interview ;))

sbsmac

Jul 1 2011, 17:15

We've finished our first update, which introduced some basic exe fixes, and some specific things too. Other feedback (partly noted in the above post; particularly in regard to the flight model and handling), is in WiP, but requires a longer turn around or are not yet internally tested for distribution.

I think there's a few more changes than are listed in the changelog :) Handling seems much easier now - deadzone on x52 is either gone or very much reduced, ground effect 'bounce' when trying to land seems to be virtually gone, much less 'pendulum' effect when flying, much less requirement to apply rudder when changing collective etc.

I have no idea whether these changes make things more or less realistic but it's certainly a lot easier to fly now. I even managed to fly inside a hangar, land, take off and fly back out again without crashing and there's no way I could have managed that in the earlier build :)