Cover system for Arma3?

[r3volution]

I know this is a topic of fairly heated debate given its association with, how do I put this delicately, the more 'arcade-ish' section of the market, but I'm curious to see how the Arma userbase feels on the topic.

Would Arma3 benefit from some kind of cover system, the ability to 'lock' to cover by keystroke and then be able to return fire and pop out of cover directionally?

I will admit I never played Op. Flashpoint as that was before my PC gaming days, but having played Arma, Arma2 and Arrowhead for a sum total of probably well over a few thousand hours, I feel like the AI could use the help that a cover-based system could bring. I know many people play Arma for the vehicle combat, but for me its all about the infantry, and the AI infantry behaviour (even when improved with mods) is vastly at odds with how you see soldiers behave in actual combat. A cover system could improve the ability of the AI to survive firefights and to actually resemble a trained fighting force, as opposed to fighting like an army of child soldiers thinking they're protected by witchcraft.

I'll admit, a cover system is not the only way to improve the AI with regards to its infantry co-ordination and survival qualities, but I think it would give it a substantial leg up as well as making the game more engaging for the player.

I'm well prepared to get ripped a new one on this though, so fire away.

*Edit* I just want to clarify I'm not in favour of any kind of 3rd person cover mechanic, unless that's the general view option being used. First person for immersion!

[OB1]

im not going to tear you a new one.. try keep this thread diplomatic as possible aye ?

basically no, I think they almost got it right now.. you get shot at and you panic, your aim is all over the place and you cannot shoot strait. This forces you to take cover and recover... If only they can make this affect AI in the same way...

In terms of PvP multilayer its been nailed... if someone gets the shot off first, the person on the receiving end is strait away at a disadvantage.. Supressive fire works perfectly...

[-Puma-]

Well In real world the lean against walls , so why not in ARMA 3. Im really hoping they will implement this. allso i owuld like to see the ability to "rest" ur weapon on a for example a stone wall to reduce the recoil.

[Rye]

Mmm... aslong as you can penetrate the walls (link to destructable environment) and there's no over the top blind firing at every turn. I can see it turning into too quick of an animation and not going so well, I like the system it has now...

[OB1]

Well In real world the lean against walls , so why not in ARMA 3. Im really hoping they will implement this. allso i owuld like to see the ability to "rest" ur weapon on a for example a stone wall to reduce the recoil.

as long as its not 3rd person and you have full control of your movement on the wall...

basically if they implement it like 'Vegas' 1&2.. that would be a fail...

[AnimalMother92]

Hmmm, I think it would be tricky to pull off but could potentially be really amazing. If anyone has played Killzone 2 or 3 singleplayer, I thought that cover system was pretty well done.

[jhoson14]

If its like Red Orchestra 2 cover, or even more realistic... would love to have.


Edit:

Video showing a ingame footage of RO2 with a little use of the cover system:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMwx4Zw9RY0&feature=related

[Mr. Bravo]

For AI? Yes.

For real players? No.

I dont need a system to keep me in cover, and I really hate the feeling of being more or less "locked" in certain positions or movements. When using TrackIR to move your head separately and lean around corners, while also being able to lower/safety your weapon, you can easily control your character in cover and tight spaces without bomping around like a dinosaur or spinning around like a ballerina. It's very good as it is compared to all other games. Only thing that slows us down is the current stupid animation-system, which is hopefully improved for A3 :)

For AI it would obviously do a lot of good though, making them use their environment in a much better and safer way. At least as long as they still move from cover and not just staying there :p

[r3volution]

Not having use the TrackIR system at any point I can't comment on how that affects the cover experience but I do imagine it improves how Arma2 works in terms of being in cover vs looking around...

That Red Orchestra 2 vid is a pretty good example of the kind of thing I'm talking about, subtle and 1st person, key activated rather than automatic and it doesn't seem to have much of a 'locked in' feel to it, as much as you can tell from a video.

I know that some players may not feel they need a cover system, but the obvious joy of the key activated one is that if you want, you never have to use it. Its effectively an opt-in cover system rather than automatic and forcing you into it.

[jhoson14]

You dont get glued to the wall, to get out of cover just move back or to the side.

Was trying to find a certain video wich really shows read orchestra 2 cover system, but havent been able to find it. Will try again later and will post here.

[DMarkwick]

A more fluid and precise movement would be appreciated. It's be good to very slightly raise my head to peep over or around objects from any stance, TIR 6DoF + keypress could be implemented as the control device.

Currently I use 3rd person to peep over & around stuff, I don't see it as a cheat I see it as a workaround for reduced realism :)

[wolfbite]

Erm i would mind something that flattens you up against the wall... Its annoying trying to lean round only to get shot in the leg because the current lean is a bit... erm dodgy? If I was leanish I'd try to keep as much of me behind the wall as poss.

I'm not really bothered about blindfire... If they implemented it .. it should have the accuracy of when you're running with an mg...

[OB1]

Currently I use 3rd person to peep over & around stuff, I don't see it as a cheat I see it as a workaround for reduced realism :)

This is why I play on server with expert enabled, to stop people like you cheating :p
------------
a comment about that red orchestra cover system thing.... 'terrible' just my opinion...

[MadDogX]

I'm all for a cover system, as long as it's done properly. :)

[DMarkwick]

This is why I play on server with expert enabled, to stop people like you cheating :p
------------
a comment about that red orchestra cover system thing.... 'terrible' just my opinion...

Aha.... so you're saying you prefer reduced realism ;) :D

[KBourne]

This is why I play on server with expert enabled, to stop people like you cheating :p
------------
a comment about that red orchestra cover system thing.... 'terrible' just my opinion...

this is debatable, the third person view gives you in fact that what the op is asking in a surtain dagree, i mean ( so you're boddy won't be exposed immidiatly ) but i aggree i am not in favour of a cover system as the op is saying, keep the third person view for that is well anough.

You have the cover and peek around the corner it is not cheating! in first person it is like you have horse laps on your're eyes and in first person pc games it is alsways been that way and i disliked that in every game so far thats why i love the fact you have the third person view in arma.

if i am in real world i can peek up, down and arround a corner without exposing my self and still have the freedom to move where i want when i want and in ArmA2 the 3th person view does just that, although maybe it would be a little more realistic if the 3th person can't roll out that far like you can look over a building and way out of the second corner sometimes, it should be just so that you can peek arround the first corner and over low ridges or lower walls nothing more but yeah everything can be tweeked or have some improvement, i meen everyone has hes or her opinion on sertain points.

kind regards

[PuFu]

I would prefer to be able to peek in 1st person. The only cover system i have seen and liked was the one in RO2, together with it's rest-on feature (for weapons with bipods)

[2nd Ranger]

A more fluid and precise movement would be appreciated. It's be good to very slightly raise my head to peep over or around objects from any stance

I wouldn't mind a 'stick-to-wall' cover system, but I'd prefer this, what they call 'Fluid Posture' in Raven Shield. I think you just held the shift key and moved the mouse, and you could incrementally lean or raise/lower your stance as much as you wanted. I think the AI should use a 'sticky' cover system because it would make them harder to hit and have the added benefit of making them look more human.

[MadDogX]

I wouldn't mind a 'stick-to-wall' cover system, but I'd prefer this, what they call 'Fluid Posture' in Raven Shield. I think you just held the shift key and moved the mouse, and you could incrementally lean or raise/lower your stance as much as you wanted. I think the AI should use a 'sticky' cover system because it would make them harder to hit and have the added benefit of making them look more human.
100% agree with this.

[Smookie]

Red Orchestra cover system while very similiar to Crysis 2 (dunno which one is the rip off another;P) is extremely arcadish and I am suprised to hear "like" comments from realism crowd ;) Imho, cover system in first person, as experienced in CGA, is extremely difficult to implement for the first person without having it look ridiculous or lose the "simulation" feel.

[Make Love Not War]

I know many people play Arma for the vehicle combat, but for me its all about the infantry <snip>


Ditto.



<snip> the AI infantry behaviour (even when improved with mods) is vastly at odds with how you see soldiers behave in actual combat. A cover system could improve the ability of the AI to survive firefights and to actually resemble a trained fighting force <snip>


Dead on observations about the AI. But, to be glib, I have to say that not having the benefits of a more advanced cover system is the least of the AI's worries. You won't see a drastic improvement in the AI combat behaviour without other, key improvements in the AI first. I don't want to hijack the thread, so I'll just give a quick example: what is the point of indivdual soldiers taking cover if they don't have an overall plan of attack (or defense) in the first place? Sure, it will take longer to kill them, but they'll still end up dead.

Or, to rephrase a little: a better cover system for the AI would not be without its uses (and I would certainly welcome it), but it's approaching the overall AI problem from a bottom-up angle whereas IMO BIS needs to be over-hauling big chunks of the AI from a top-down perspective.

Also, in terms of more intricate player interactions with cover, you might want to take a look at:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=115889

Perhaps something along these lines might be what you're looking for?

[metalcraze]

A cover system was invented to compensate for the inability of gamepads in console shooters to be fast and precise - by forcing the character into only 1 dimension of movement.
Same goes for enemies - they are locked to specially pre-placed boxes so you won't have to aim at them, just wait till their head pops up and press fire.

It doesn't improve any "immersion", it just makes a gameplay much slower and clunky and removes all remaining realism - turning it into a whac-a-mole.

So a big fat NO

Use the lean key.

[MadDogX]

A cover system was invented to compensate for the inability of gamepads in console shooters to be fast a precise - by forcing the character into only 1 dimension of movement.

It doesn't improve any "immersion", it just makes a gameplay much slower and clunky.

So a bit fat NO

Use the lean key.
It seems you have a rather narrow view on what a cover system could be.

[metalcraze]

It seems you have a rather narrow view on what a cover system could be.

ArmA2 already has a perfect "cover system" where you are not limited in anything.

Use anything for cover you want in any way you want.

I don't want ArmA to turn into an empty field full of boxes that don't make any sense. Keep that shit to consoles where it belongs.

[Smookie]

MadDogX, please don't feed the troll. Metalcraze has proved himself as generally speaking narrow-viewed person in each of his 933 (and i suppose there is gonna be 934rd coming right after mine) posts.

Cover system is designed to speed up the pace of the game and get rid of ridiculous Stand/Crouch behaviour or leaning around the corner repeatedly pressing left or right button.

[metalcraze]

MadDogX, please don't feed the troll. Metalcraze has proved himself as generally speaking narrow-viewed person in each of his 933 (and i suppose there is gonna be 934rd coming right after mine) posts.
Yes because I disagree with someone I'm suddenly a "narrow-minded troll"


Cover system is designed to speed up the pace of the game and get rid of ridiculous Stand/Crouch behaviour or leaning around the corner repeatedly pressing left or right button.

Isn't that what cover system is all about? You get glued to the box (and can't move anywhere - so much for "fast paced"), you crouch, you press fire - you stand up and fire, you crouch again. Repeat. And that's what it is - crouch -stand up -crouch stand up.

It isn't realistic, it isn't "immersive", it doesn't work in first person, it requires linear levels with artificially preplaced cover - but you want it in ArmA because?..



ArmA2 already has a cover system for AI. It isn't ideal, but it makes sense and it works. Much better than the ridiculousness of Gears of War/Mass Effect

[Leon86]

I would like a crysis2/red orchestra system for leaning over a wall but for corner leaning the exposure should be just as limited, in ro they might as well run around the corner.

Also maybe add a button to incrementally peek around/over whithout the weapon so you can see without exposing yourself more than needed.

I would hate a button to "lock to wall", or automatically put your back to the wall, that's for third person shooters.

[r3volution]

@<hidden> Make Love Not War : Good points and that thread does have some interesting potential, I very much hope BI are reading it. I acknowledge that individual soldiers taking cover in an unco-ordinated way is just going to prolong how long they last, but it does emulate that first response in a firefight which is to go to ground.

I hope that BI will really do a top down reformation of the AI so that they act in a more sophisticated way but my experience with what is possible and what seems to be implemented by BI points towards this being unlikely. I see incremental improvements through the series but nothing that goes towards a groundbreaking rewrite of the tactical group/individual ai. SO to be the ruthless pragmatist, I'd like to think that the cover system would at least mean that the AI would be being stupid in cover rather than being stupid out in the open.

And thanks to metalcraze for without a smidge of irony exactly portraying the knee-jerk console/pc strawman bollocks that comes along with discussions of a cover system.

[NeMeSiS]

A system like in Call of Juarez would be pretty nice. But any other system i have played with so far: No, that is fucking retarded.

[CameronMcDonald]

If someone can actually describe a decent cover system that doesn't involve people adhering to surfaces, predictable AI popup targets and FUCKING buttsliding, my cynical meter may go down a level.

[MadDogX]

If someone can actually describe a decent cover system that doesn't involve people adhering to surfaces, predictable AI popup targets and FUCKING buttsliding, my cynical meter may go down a level.
As someone described on page #2, Raven Shields "fluid posture" would be a good start. :)

[lsp]

I gotta say I agree with metalcraze I dont know why your all saying hes narrow minded lol.I wish they would add more leans though so to speak to be able to shoot over a low wall without standing up or peak over one. Sounds like alot of you want arma on xbox turned into graw or gears.

[CameronMcDonald]

As someone described on page #2, Raven Shields "fluid posture" would be a good start. :)

Heh, forgot about that. Shame on me. Get it to work with the AI and I'm sold.

And now, some emoticons. :slayer2: :www:

[Dissaifer]

I always liked rainbow six vegas 2's cover system, you can use it if you want or not. And they even patched it later so in third person you couldn't peek behind the wall (see down the alley).

off topic... it would be cool if A3 had repelling... pipe dream.

[11aTony]

I always liked Vegas cover system the best of games I tried on PC that have it. But I dont think player needs a cover system. As mentioned, some kind of "Fluid Posture" would be much better. Most of usable cover in arma 2 offers good cover horizontaly but verticaly, it is often useless. So adjusting your hight between "crouch" and "stand up" would be the best.

However, I feel like AI cover system should be improved in a way that AI automaticly looks the "right" position depending on where AI came from. Right now you send him to a corner of a small building at his 3 o'clock that provides cover for left side of his body. He goes to cover and starts looking into a wall. In case like this one, AI should move just 10-20cm to his right and provide cover.
So if anything can be done to AI so they recognize and utilize cover better, that would be great. It would save valuable seconds in heat of battle that you dont have.
I like commanding AI so it would mean a lot and could bring joy to some that dont like commanding them right now.

[metalcraze]

As someone described on page #2, Raven Shields "fluid posture" would be a good start. :)

ArmA2 actually does have this when it comes to leaning. But it's only available for TrackIR owners (who are humans obviously)

However this thing I can relate to. CTRL key is not used in ArmA2 too

But the problem is of course animations. In RS you are very much a bodyless floating camera.

[PuFu]

no, it doesn't have any fluid posture, trackIR or not. All you can sort of duck the head, but that is available via freelook just as well.

[metalcraze]

Yeah sorry I forgot to add "leaning" at first. Fixed that.
Leaning with TrackIR sorta works like in RS

But hey if BIS will allow all of us to at least have leaning like in Raven Shield where instead of exposing a whole chunk of your body you control the amount of leaning with your mouse - it will be a nice start.

[PuFu]

Yeah sorry I forgot to add "leaning" at first. Fixed that.
Leaning with TrackIR sorta works like in RS

But hey if BIS will allow all of us to at least have leaning like in Raven Shield where instead of exposing a whole chunk of your body you control the amount of leaning with your mouse - it will be a nice start.
yeah the leaning via track IR is cool, but the real issue for me is the vertical stances, especially the in betweens. I would much rather have the same lean and fluid stances for the vertical position (especially when static, so i can control the amount of height i have, allowing me to peep over obstacles)

[MadDogX]

That would also give TrackIRs vertical axis a point in Arma2. :)

(Though it should also be assignable to a key+mouse movement combo.)

[Innomadic]

However this thing I can relate to. CTRL key is not used in ArmA2 too


It is however the primary, most convenient and widely used TS3 mic activation button, so i'd like to have that free.

[ZacharyHawk]

Hmm! cover system will make ArmA 3 more realistic !

[Avgeris]

It's easy to find cover I don't understand why making a post like this...

[MadDogX]

It's easy to find cover I don't understand why making a post like this...
The topic is really more about improving movement precision and partly about avatar interaction with the environment. Of course anyone can stand/lie behind a solid object and stop bullets from hitting them, but the real issue is being unable to easily peek around or over the object without exposing a large part of your body, like you could in real life. Popping out from cover quickly in order to fire off a few (less accurate) shots is also difficult, and in some situations not possible at all.

[Liquidpinky]

Proper cover system would be decent, being an MGS fan I would obviously enjoy it.
Ideally need the ability to peek over walls etc or possible corner peeking, which can be done currently with lean anyway.
The ability to pull yourself up a head height wall to peek over would be handy as well, especially on the no third person servers.

Just asking for more options to help me keep my avatar alive really.

[2nd Ranger]

Heh, forgot about that. Shame on me. Get [fluid posture] to work with the AI and I'm sold.


While it would be awesome and immersive to see AI using fluid posture, i.e. hiding behind a wall and raising/lowering themselves just enough to take a shot and not get hit, I don't think it's very likely we'll see it anytime soon, at least not in this series. If the AI has trouble deciding what direction to look when you order them into cover, I doubt they'd be able to judge how much they should raise their head over an object.

The AI are actually decent now at moving to cover. The main problems are that they sometimes can't get close enough to the object and that they go prone too much. If it was even feasible for a cover system to be implemented, the AI would almost certainly have to use the 'stick to wall and pop up' approach. If you observe the AI in Arma 2 right now, sometimes it seems like they already kind of get 'snapped' to the object when they get near it. As if they're being attachTo'd. This is a good start, because obviously the engine can detect when they are near the cover. All they would need is an appropriate set of animations when they are 'in' the cover.

[Kirq]

Voted Yes, but it has to be something similar to Red Orchestra 2 fpp cover system.

[OB1]

if i am in real world i can peek up, down and arround a corner without exposing my self and still have the freedom to move where i want when i want and in ArmA2 the 3th person view does just that, although maybe it would be a little more realistic if the 3th person can't roll out that far like you can look over a building and way out of the second corner sometimes, it should be just so that you can peek arround the first corner and over low ridges or lower walls nothing more but yeah everything can be tweeked or have some improvement, i meen everyone has hes or her opinion on sertain points.

kind regards

Well the fact of the matter is... In real life I cannot view myself from outside my body. So I think first person is far more realistic even with the compromise of not being able to know exactly where my body is and if it is visible or not. 3rd person is always exploited in the game.. 99% of you fly arma aircraft in 3rd person don't you ? and allot of you use 3rd person to view over a tall wall or around a corner or over a crest of a hill without being exposed to any danger... That is unrealistic...


Aha.... so you're saying you prefer reduced realism ;) :D

Derka ? having a computer to manage my cover in my opinion is unrealistic...

Cover is when you place an object between yourself and the enemy... you can do that just fine now...

a cover system reminds me too much of an arcade game.. sorry I'm going to be stubborn about this and I will never agree to a cover system..

[Binkowski]

oh hell no. cover systems are cool in games like la noire, and red dead redemption. but not armed assault.

[Moricky]

As a matter of fact, there already is cover system in Arma series. You may notice that vast majority of obstacles, be it walls, fences, rocks etc., are specificaly designed in a way that thay provide cover for at least one of the soldier stances.

What's more, there's difference between cover and concealment (http://dslyecxi.com/armattp.html#hownottogetshot_cover). Arma series provides both and sticky cover system would lead to confusion (can you already hear people complaining about being shot through cover which was not cover at all? :)).

When you look at games with 'cover system', they're usually more corridor based shooters where type of obstacle and enemy's position are clearly defined and there's little or no risk of ambush from behind. If your ever were in cover in one of these games and enemy got behind you, you know how clumsy and slow reacting usually is.

[metalcraze]

As a matter of fact, there already is cover system in Arma series. You may notice that vast majority of obstacles, be it walls, fences, rocks etc., are specificaly designed in a way that thay provide cover for at least one of the soldier stances.

What's more, there's difference between cover and concealment (http://dslyecxi.com/armattp.html#hownottogetshot_cover). Arma series provides both and sticky cover system would lead to confusion (can you already hear people complaining about being shot through cover which was not cover at all? :)).

When you look at games with 'cover system', they're usually more corridor based shooters where type of obstacle and enemy's position are clearly defined and there's little or no risk of ambush from behind. If your ever were in cover in one of these games and enemy got behind you, you know how clumsy and slow reacting usually is.


With such developer's mentality it's one less to worry about for me.


And yes. If anyone of you played GTA4 and tried to fight cops outside of corridor missions you surely remember all the "FFFUUUUUUU-" when they attacked you from behind and you were stickied to the cover.


What we have in ArmA2 is great. You have all the freedom you need. The only possible improvement is how it's done in Raven Shield

People just complain because in console shooters with cover when ducking behind the cover you are absolutely invincible and yet can immediately get up and put a precise headshot despite your avatar not knowing what's going on around him.

In ArmA2 they get killed.

[mrcash2009]

I wouldn't want a cover system, like mentioned its too much of a system that control's you to a point, want the freedom we have than that TBH.

I think it might be just looking at it wrong, rather that that one size fits all system we just need tweaking on clipping on gun and the usual things with CQB, collisions better generally with rocks etc and maybe the ability to slide to cover as an anim and some nice leaning smoothness, just the plain old anim/fix debate realy.

I think to have a system for cover doesn't realy "fit" with it.

[r3volution]

I suppose in retrospect I should have made my point about a cover system clearer in the poll options, as I'm definitely not for the 'gears of war' style of cover mechanics. But I do feel that something which provides the ability to adapt your stance to the object your taking cover behind and give you better animations/actions could benefit the gameplay, particularly in the way AI behave, as others have mentioned they do notice cover in the game, they're just woefully inadequate at using it to protect themselves in a firefight.

[tsb247]

I am against the implimentation of a cover system. Every cover system I have seen has seemed, "Arcady," to me. I don't like the though of, "Sticking," to walls, objects, or being stuck to a wall when I am trying to turn a corner.

I would rather see a fluid-stance feature implimented than a cover system like those I have seen. Even the Red Orchestra 2 system seems like a bit much for me.

However, if they did decide to go with a cover system, I would like to see it as an optional feature that could be turned on or off at the players' discretion.

[SpetS15]

I cant believe people voting yes for this noobish request in ArmA. Actually you can take cover very easy, also in low walls, in crouch position you just have to look down and your character gonna take cover lowering the head, then you can press prone key

[DMarkwick]

When you look at games with 'cover system', they're usually more corridor based shooters where type of obstacle and enemy's position are clearly defined and there's little or no risk of ambush from behind. If your ever were in cover in one of these games and enemy got behind you, you know how clumsy and slow reacting usually is.

This is a good point. Games with cover systems know certain things, like what cover is good, and where the danger is coming from. The whole point of an ArmA-like game is that you do NOT have predetermined battle scenarios like this. What happens if you're stuck in a cover-pose, and you're flanked or surprised from behind? That cover is no longer cover, it's a velcro trap made to kill you :)

[Mr. Charles]

If you get shot from behind, you are dead most of the times, cover system or no cover system doesn't matter and pressing one button to get out of the animation is hardly "being stuck" :j:

[PuFu]

in most of the games with cover systems you can take a lot of pounding before you actually die, which is not the case with BIS games.

I for once would love to see more interaction with the environment, such as already suggested fluid movement (vertical and/or horizontal)

I am against factors limiting movement in a 2d space. I believe smookie addon could be taken as a proof of concept for bohemia, as well as other systems

[4 IN 1]

Well thats because now adays people really like those "lean back to the wall" stuff because they were...er.....look COOL....

[niQ®]

Quote cover system only for AI
:j:

[sparks50]

Good first person cover systems: Call of Juraez 2, Red Orchestra 2.

Its not hard to use cover In Arma 2, but it could have been more immersive.

With a headtracking device you can lean down a bit dynamically, something I find myself using more and more.

[MadDogX]

Vietcong, anyone?

[RobertHammer]

Vietcong, anyone?

yes , vietcong had it nice :)

[Mr. Charles]

fuYL-keoGvU

This is the only thing i find searching for vietcong cover system :o

[Heatseeker]

Cover systems are for pussies! :) .

Edit: Vietcong more or less nailed it.

[metalcraze]

Quote cover system only for AI
:j:

And how will AI benefit from it exactly?

I bet cover systems helped all those 1000s of poor AIs on your killlist in games with them.


AI already has a nice cover system in ArmA2. All it needs is fine tuning - like making AI use corners better instead of exposing half of his body f.e.

[froggyluv]

Hehe, the two games I hear about again and again -Vietcong and Ghost Recon/Raven, refuse to play on Win7 64. I want to know what all the fuss is about! :D

I remember first time I tried Vegas and was like "wow, amazing cover!" -feeling died in maybe 2 hours and never played again. The point that they work well in limited, predefined mission space but would fall apart in wide open world -makes sense.

Personally I'm still amazed how far the AI have come when I see them leaning out to take pot shots at me -a wet dream from the OFP era!

[St. Jimmy]

I think everyone should try Smookie's Animation Replacement Pack (http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=14012&d=15#comments) especially those who are complaining about cover system. It's only v0.2 but it's already pretty amazing stuff.
Hope Smokie will get back to wall work on both sides not just over the left shoulder.

[metalcraze]

Dude you can shoot around corners very straight with that addon exposing only your weapon no matter how big said weapon is. And not have any hand traumas.

That's ridiculous.

Among other unrealistic or redundant things (like hugging the wall or the absolute requirement to use 3rd person near walls for a lot of animations to not look stupid, or climbing over walls with a heavy backpack).

[NeMeSiS]

Hehe, the two games I hear about again and again -Vietcong and Ghost Recon/Raven, refuse to play on Win7 64. I want to know what all the fuss is about! :D

I remember first time I tried Vegas and was like "wow, amazing cover!" -feeling died in maybe 2 hours and never played again. The point that they work well in limited, predefined mission space but would fall apart in wide open world -makes sense.

Personally I'm still amazed how far the AI have come when I see them leaning out to take pot shots at me -a wet dream from the OFP era!

Try Call of Juarez: Bound in Blood, it had the best system IMO. It didnt depend on chest high walls, not 3rd person based and you didnt need to press any buttons. There is probably a demo around to try.

[RobertHammer]

Try Call of Juarez: Bound in Blood, it had the best system IMO. It didnt depend on chest high walls, not 3rd person based and you didnt need to press any buttons. There is probably a demo around to try.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4EQFGd-Wq4

I agree thats very good :)

[St. Jimmy]

@<hidden>

If BIS can do that kind of cover system I believe they would make it even more realistic like exposing only light weapons or make MG's to be veeeery unaccurate and you can't climb over the walls with 100kg backpack etc.

[Heatseeker]

Try Call of Juarez: Bound in Blood, it had the best system IMO. It didnt depend on chest high walls, not 3rd person based and you didnt need to press any buttons. There is probably a demo around to try.

I went thru the game twice and barely used it, it was glitchy too.

[metalcraze]

@<hidden>

If BIS can do that kind of cover system I believe they would make it even more realistic like exposing only light weapons or make MG's to be veeeery unaccurate and you can't climb over the walls with 100kg backpack etc.

It's already unrealistic. How can they make it "even more" realistic?

No soldier is trained to waste ammo like that nor is it effective in any way.

It just looks "cool"

[NeMeSiS]

I went thru the game twice and barely used it, it was glitchy too.

I also didnt use it that often because the game was incredibly easy most of the time, still, i really liked that feature. It could be twitchy at times, but i still found it better than in any other game i played since its barely a 'cover system', you just walk up to an object and look around as you would in other games without any 'cover system'.

[RobertHammer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQin4AaPwJw&feature=related

MOH: Airborne had it good too - it was very usefull with that shotgun :D

[Make Love Not War]

Wanted to touch upon the AI side of this discussion again:



I hope that BI will really do a top down reformation of the AI so that they act in a more sophisticated way but my experience with what is possible and what seems to be implemented by BI points towards this being unlikely.


Unfortunately, I'm inclined to agree. :(



So to be the ruthless pragmatist, I'd like to think that the cover system would at least mean that the AI would be being stupid in cover rather than being stupid out in the open.


Good point. Yeah, upon some reflection I realize I wasn't being fair - you're right that improving the AI's ability to find and use cover would be a meaningful step forward.



<snip> it does emulate that first response in a firefight which is to go to ground.


Yes, and of equal importance is to return fire ASAP. ATM, the AI somehow manages to do neither of these two things; instead, it seems to be enamored with the idea of running from cover to cover willy-nilly. In effect this means that (A) it is actually not behind cover very often, and (B) it isn't firing back to any appreciable extent.

BTW, I was looking at solving some of these issues via scripting and the proof of concepts I've written so far seem promising. I also know SNKMAN was doing some work in that area:

http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=1760433&postcount=1943

Those vids are definitely worth checking out.

[-=seany=-]

For Players - no

For AI - maybe.

TBH the AI now, in OA, do use a cover system and will run to an object (like a building) and lean around the corner of it. It's pretty impressive. If they can improve this a bit more then that would be great. The trouble with adding things like this for the AI is getting them to do it at the right time.

There is no point in adding things like this for the AI if they do it at the wrong time, which is some thing that is already a problem in Arma, to a certain extent. When this happens it makes the game feel less realistic then if the feature wasn't there.

I think during the course of Arma3 development they will improve the Ai and things like taking cover and shooting around corners. So I doubt there is a need for some "special ability" to be added.

[froggyluv]

AI's use walls laterally quite well. What would it take for them to use objects ala cars, tanks etc....?

[St. Jimmy]

It's already unrealistic. How can they make it "even more" realistic?

No soldier is trained to waste ammo like that nor is it effective in any way.

It just looks "cool"

Ok let's replace the "even more realistic" with realistic :) And if you or your squad leader thinks that's uneffective and you are wasting too much ammo then don't use it.

[swesog]

There is a cover system in the upcoming Red Orchestra: Heroes Of Stalingrad. I think that would work for Arma 3 aswell.

[Lou Montana]

well TBH I loved the Army of Two : 40th day cover system, fluid, very effective when you know it !
But honestly not in Arma ; one thing from other games I'd like to see would be the soldier putting his weapon down (or up, but... anyway) when he's too close to a wall ; first trying to put the gun over the wall (if it is just a bit too high) and if not, keeping it against his body so you are not blocked in your movements in a small place. I wouldn't be angry if they kept the actual system tho, because it's also simple and effective - maybe just needs a bit of polish, that's all !

[gho$t]

If they devolped a well done FPS cover system, i could see that being in the game.

[.Taffy]

As others have said before me, I think there is no need for a cover system for the player, but I would really like to see the AI respond more interactively with the environment to take cover.

[kylania]

As others have said before me, I think there is no need for a cover system for the player, but I would really like to see the AI respond more interactively with the environment to take cover.

They've gotten a lot better in A2. Last night I was playing and several times I saw AI run to a tree or a wall and hide behind it poking out to shoot.

[ProfTournesol]

They've gotten a lot better in A2. Last night I was playing and several times I saw AI run to a tree or a wall and hide behind it poking out to shoot.

Yes, latest patch made it much better. Need some improvements on shooting through windows / doors etc.

[.Taffy]

They've gotten a lot better in A2. Last night I was playing and several times I saw AI run to a tree or a wall and hide behind it poking out to shoot.

True, there has been a big improvement, so I am hopeful for the future of the AI. Their behaviour in urban environments does need improvement though, and I would quite like to see a system where you could point at the corner of a building and have the selected units stack up againts it etc.

I appreciate that doing it would likely be very complicated though...

[Splintert]

They've gotten a lot better in A2. Last night I was playing and several times I saw AI run to a tree or a wall and hide behind it poking out to shoot.

When a milita hides behind a 3/4 foot pole as cover, with both shoulders and legs sticking out, something is wrong.

[SpetS15]

I think also Medal of Honor Airborne have a cover system...

If BIS put all the thinks ppl are asking for, I hope the game do not change too much. I dont want ArmA3 the same destiny as Americas Army 3, they change everything and the game FAIL so bad, that now, nobody is playing even AA2.0

EDIT: oh! btw! all those things that ruined AA3 was suggested by newcomers and casuals, even they are not playing that game now

[4 IN 1]

Aside from looking cool and make gameplay unrealisticly easier in most case, I see no difference by switching into 3rd person view, not that I am totally against any sort of cover system, for example RO2 have a good system, but thats a game that have a lots of predefined object placement. So instead of spending time on cover system, i think they should just try to make the avatar switching weapon hand when lean left.

[neokika]

In my honest opinion Arma 2 already has the best cover system ever, the traditional one, where you go prone, crouch and lean, its really amazing and works better then any other type of cover system that make you glued to a wall/cover...Also the most "realistic"!

_neo_

[Iroquois Pliskin]

Really depends on the implementation, it has to be fine-tuned to twitch FPS, preferably with no additional keys to initiate cover - I don't think there are any free keys we could assign to this function. ;)

I've seen a video in this section of the forums, showing a cover system in ArmA 2 similar to smookie's PVP animations, it could be his creation, in fact. :D

[zooloo75]

Don't know if this was mentioned yet, but I would like to see the character "adjust" to the height of a nearby object when crouched to allow more cover.

[JojoTheSlayer]

That would also give TrackIRs vertical axis a point in Arma2. :)

(Though it should also be assignable to a key+mouse movement combo.)

Ditto, but thats about it.
Cover mechanics in games work far better than what you are able to do in real life anyway and that would affect game play negatively if it could be used on hardcore settings.

I wouldnt mind that the weapon auto lowered itself if it hit objects though. Like doorways, you are to close to the wall, etc

Edit:
Blind fire with extreme recoil etc could only be discussed I think if you, like Red Orchestra, can shoot the weapons out of peoples hands besides just damaging them or it will only be misused.

[4 IN 1]

Really depends on the implementation, it has to be fine-tuned to twitch FPS, preferably with no additional keys to initiate cover - I don't think there are any free keys we could assign to this function. ;)

I've seen a video in this section of the forums, showing a cover system in ArmA 2 similar to smookie's PVP animations, it could be his creation, in fact. :D

That is his work, however there is drawback with his mod, and it does not always works with everyone, I for one are only able to run that mod half of the time.

[SpetS15]

Don't know if this was mentioned yet, but I would like to see the character "adjust" to the height of a nearby object when crouched to allow more cover.

you can do that, watch min 3:00

EAh3qWVHraY

there is also a mod for pvp animations

cOPdB6sNpx4

[-Puma-]

Cover system would (If Ai uses it correctly) bring longer firefights. If ai would just go behind cover and stay there for awhile it would bring more possibilities like flanking the dude. Now what I´ve seen run around quite alot and stops to kneel and takes a few shots, wich is very easy to predict.

I just woke so im allmost certain all of this dosent make any sense:pet5:

[sxp2high]

In my honest opinion Arma 2 already has the best cover system ever, the traditional one, where you go prone, crouch and lean, its really amazing and works better then any other type of cover system that make you glued to a wall/cover...Also the most "realistic"!

_neo_

Exactly, we can already do (http://travis-english.deviantart.com/art/AAAMT-Shoulder-Check-151763842), what a cover system would do. And after some practice, as fast as a cover system. So, no use for such a thing.

http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/025/a/9/AAAMT___Shoulder_Check_by_Travis_English.jpg

[Tom1]

Don't know if this was mentioned yet, but I would like to see the character "adjust" to the height of a nearby object when crouched to allow more cover.

In my oppinion this is all it needs.

[Norsu]

I wouldn't mind a cover system like in RO2. Simple 3rd person cover systems where you are glued to a wall would be too easy and make battles repetitive like they usually are in cover system games. Current way of taking cover suffers from couple of annoying things:

-Movement near objects and walls can be clumsy
-You can get stuck into rocks and other small obstacles
-You need to position yourself carefully to take the advantage of leaning and freelook. This wouldn't be an issue if movement was precise. With TrackIR this is easier but TrackIR shouldn't be mandatory in any way.
-We need multiple keys to do to simple things like quick freelook leaning. Maybe universal leaning function that you can adjust with mouse movement would be better? Something like in Thief 1 & 2 where you can adjust how far you lean using the mouse movement and leaning keys.

[])rStrangelove]

No special cover system is needed. Imo all cover systems that use a special button or gameplay object (crates & stuff for looking over) are just an easier way for the AI to notice the player is actually in cover and is not 'allowed' to be seen until he fires.

As an fps programmer its far easier to provide a key to the player for going into cover rather than make complicated AI - player - line of sight checks to find out whether the AI can see him or not.

[Smookie]

As an fps programmer its far easier to provide a key to the player for going into cover rather than make complicated AI - player - line of sight checks to find out whether the AI can see him or not.

Its not really the case in arma, as it would seem (according to my tests with CGA). ArmA2 seems to already acknowledge you are behind the wall and you are safe.

[Tom1]

In my oppinion the ability to automatically raise/lower your body to fit the wall you are kneeling behind is good enough. All 'cover issues' we currently have other than the inability to adapt our bodies to the height of a wall we are behind are caused by crappy animations and sometimes physics. A full cover system is deffinitly not needed in my oppinion.

[DMarkwick]

In my oppinion the ability to automatically raise/lower your body to fit the wall you are kneeling behind is good enough. All 'cover issues' we currently have other than the inability to adapt our bodies to the height of a wall we are behind are caused by crappy animations and sometimes physics. A full cover system is deffinitly not needed in my oppinion.

Maybe a suitable "rest on surface" feature would kill two birds with one stone - allow for stabalised weapons and allow for cover height adjustment.

[metalcraze]

ACE already does that. It's a pretty cool feature and doesn't break anything. Just press shift+space and your weapon is rested (provided the object is high/low enough - which ACE somehow detects well) This is the thing I want to see in vanilla too.

That and gradual leaning like in Raven Shield (and with TrackIR in AA2) is the real improvement the game needs.

[r3volution]

Got to say I'm quite surprised by how many pro-cover system votes there are, I was expecting a pretty robust thrashing. Thanks to everyone for keeping it well civilised and useful! :)

I seem to be noticing a two key points in terms of the rejection of a 'cover' mechanic.

1) The capacity to do something approximating this already exists in mods and custom animation replacement sets.

*** My response to this would be that this is good, but that unless its implemented in the core game by the game devs it will remain in terms of the AI behaviour, a strap-on system which only human players can use, thus defeating the point of most of this which is increasing realistic AI behaviour in a firefight, as we people can very effectively position ourselves behind cover manually.

2) That a cover system would 'lock' someone into place and allow them to become a target from the rear, and thus is unsuited to an open world gameplay style where targets can come from anywhere.

*** Response to this would be that I don't think a 'velcroed to the wall' model of cover system would suit the Arma series at all. The last thing I would want to see is some kind of gears of war style cover hopping button mashing crap replacing the gameplay I love. I do however feel that there is benefit to having an ability to place yourself so that your avatar conforms to the cover without having to go into contortions ingame to stay down. Also that a proper cover system would allow you to actually FACE THE REAR WITH YOUR BACK TO THE WALL, thus meaning that you're less likely to die by shooting in the back.

I understand that you do have the ability to bend down to make the game's crouch more pronounced as someone said, but nobody takes cover like that in real life for very good reason, inspecting your shoelaces in a combat situation is not great observational behaviour and will likely get you killed in short order.

I have great faith in the ability of the BI devs. I think they have managed to consistently produce games of incredible scope and capacity, and so yes, I have the faith that if they chose to do a cover system it could be implemented in a way which didn't detract from the gameplay, something along the lines of a 'conform to cover' key which allows you to stay down behind the height of whatever you're behind, and allows you to pivot through 360 degrees whilst remaining in cover, as well as allow for resting of a weapon on surface to fire back more accurately...

[2nd Ranger]

Not just leaning but stance also. That would eliminate the need for any 'sticky' cover thing. In fact, a specific 'duck behind wall' animation like in Smookie's mod would be nice as well. I don't mean being stuck to the wall and ducking, just a move you can perform anywhere, like the step over.

[4 IN 1]

Again having your back on the wall isn't really that helpful other then telling you that you are in "cover mode", if you happened having to back to a wall inorder to make you a smaller target then chance is that you are on the wrong side of the wall, i would rather have the ability that once you are just standing next to the wall your weapon became more stable because the wall is backing you. You may say that Hey, it acturally help when in a conder! Well it may, but at this point I'd have my rifle up and me looking down the sight facing poissible enemy while leaning left or right peeking around.

[gus619]

Im going to sit on the fence but I dont think that it is a necessary part of inclusion in Arma 3. Focus on some of the more interesting aspects; eg Scuba Diving, Naval Combat, Air Vehicles before cover system, if it is included add a module to remove it from the gameplay when wanted.

[])rStrangelove]

Maybe a suitable "rest on surface" feature would kill two birds with one stone ...

Not if my chosen cover is a wall 2m high and i want to shoot around it. :D

Which happens to me 90% of all situations i use cover in ArmA2 tbh, but maybe i'm sexually attracted to walls and therefore its a personal thing... :rolleyes:

[DMarkwick]

)rStrangelove;1937386']Not if my chosen cover is a wall 2m high and i want to shoot around it. :D

Which happens to me 90% of all situations i use cover in ArmA2 tbh, but maybe i'm sexually attracted to walls and therefore its a personal thing... :rolleyes:

Well, it might be argued that a lean function already exists and it just needs to be more refined i.e. there's not much leaning vs clunky movements if you wish to shuffle, it's very easy to expose too much of yourself. I think maybe there should be a lean for leaning & shooting, and a more extensive "peep" lean which leans you further but with no weapon. But I think I might be unnecessarily overcomplicating the entire thing now :)

[r3volution]

)rStrangelove;1937386']but maybe i'm sexually attracted to walls...

In combat EVERYONE thinks a brick wall looks pretty sexy... ;)

That could be considered as one of the founding principles of this thread.

[4 IN 1]

Well, it might be argued that a lean function already exists and it just needs to be more refined i.e. there's not much leaning vs clunky movements if you wish to shuffle, it's very easy to expose too much of yourself. I think maybe there should be a lean for leaning & shooting, and a more extensive "peep" lean which leans you further but with no weapon. But I think I might be unnecessarily overcomplicating the entire thing now :)
In fact if BI improve the avatar collision detection I think a lots of problem will be gone.



In combat EVERYONE thinks a brick wall looks pretty sexy... ;)

That could be considered as one of the founding principles of this thread.
Not to a point that I would rub my back at that wall knowing that incoming bullet might hit the wall, bounce off and kill me.

[2nd Ranger]

Im going to sit on the fence but I dont think that it is a necessary part of inclusion in Arma 3.

more like stuck to the fence and blind firing over it amirite guys ha ha ha ha ha

[])rStrangelove]

more like stuck to the fence and blind firing over it amirite guys ha ha ha ha ha

Yup, i had this before. It's called Uncharted2. Getting into cover is like being glued there lol. :D


Uncharted2 is surely a very good example how a scripted coversystem should NOT be done. God knows if ArmA3 would include this system i'd put my order on hold until i read somebody makes a mod to get rid of it.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1078-Uncharted-2-Among-Thieves

[Rye]

In fact if BI improve the avatar collision detection I think a lots of problem will be gone.

That would be great. You know, we'd actually have a use for shorter barreled weaponary.

[AstroMan]

I don't like it when the AI are inside of houses and go prone. The hands and gun go through the wall. which means i can kill them. if they fix the player collisions and clunky movements it'll be enough for me.

[funnyguy1]

Realistic cover system - why not [for players and AI]. Arcade sprint-jump-backflip-slide to cover-like rubbish - nope.

[Call_911]

ArmA2 was a good leap forward with ai an cover but not what i expected. Also ai having 3d vision thru trees,bushes etc is kinda annoying but playable if u know how to get around there tactics. One of the disappointments in ArmA2 for me was no Durgs Vegitation Fix from ArmA1 it was so awsomeness.8)-

[4 IN 1]

What AI have is super-human hearing, not super vision.

[AstroMan]

I personally like how the AI can see and hear you know. The problem is the shooting. They are WAY to accurate with every type of weapon.

[metalcraze]

You do know you can control maximum AI accuracy via difficulty settings in your config?

[Second]

Doing it Vietcong style would be all what i would wish, for player. Meaning that there are high shooting positions for kneel and prone and low ready position for both as well. Low prone means hugging earth and making as flat target as possible, even roots of trees became potential cover (didn't have bullet penetration). I

Now days it feels unpleasant when i'm forced to go prone and back to kneeling position if i wish to shoot from kneeling position.

There's room to improve it, but even still almost 10 years ago it's most immersive thing for me. Easy to use and learn... Unlike MOH:Airborne's system which i haven't learned even still and i've finished that game three times already. :D

For AI? They should be able to use cover as firing position and as hiding position, they don't do that and usually they just lie behind rock wall unable to do anything. They should understand that in which position they can engage target and at which position they are hiding from enemies. And they should understand how to be hard target and when they have been shot at. OFDR's lousy AI had all of these (wink-wink ;) )

Not that i'd expect these kind improvements from BIS, i'm already far too skeptical with BIS and their game-improvement policy.

[Flogger23m]

A cover system if it is done as it is in RO2. As in, no over the shoulder, 3rd person junk.

keep it first person so you can accurately peak around corners, toss a grenade around a corner with minimal exposure. When resting against a surface, have it so you can stand up inch by inch to shoot over cover. This is more realistic than the 3 fixed heights in ArmA 2.

If you don't understand what I mean, look up RO2 videos. Very nice stuff with the cover/peak system.

Assuming it takes a realistic amount of time to peak around the corners and it is not clunky, then it will be greatly immersive and realistic.

[TheRookie]

In fact if BI improve the avatar collision detection I think a lots of problem will be gone.


This and the ability to move slowly to the side. Right now hitting Shift does effect moving forward in ironsights, but doesn't effect moving left or right. I died many times stepping to fast out of cover, while i tried to adjust for leaning.

[P.Denton]

You know Full Spectrum Warrior?
A RTS style fireteam based 3rd person game.
Each fireteam consists of 4 men and you can normally control Alpha and Bravo team.
You can move 1 team by selecting a team.
Move multiple teams and set one for an attracting attention from enemies
and one for engaging enemies from back or flank.
All movement are done with a whole team moving to cover to cover, not separetely and individually.
On the contray, you can't even select one guy. What you can do is to select a fireteam.
You can order a team to supress the enemy or direction you are pointing at.
Of course all AI in the game use cover system and you can't even kill an enemy facing directly to you.
So you have to use at least one team as a decoy and send one fireteam to the place the team can hit the enemy easily.
The entire team working system is really tactical, realistic in army and reasonable.
I hope BIS to take this concept into A3.

[Hellfire257]

The cover system in Brother in Arms: Hell's Highway was pretty good I think. Something similar would be welcome.

[_sherlock_]

I find myself undecided between the faction that is in favour of the suggestion and the one against it.

But it seems that the opponents fail to realise that almost no one in favour of the suggestion to improve the way one takes cover in Arma ever suggested a system like in Rainbow six. All agree that there shouldn't be a limitation of manoeuvrability or anything like a mechanism that attaches the player to the wall.

A common problem in Arma 2 is that taking cover behind for instance the hood of a Humvee isn't possible in a satisfactory way: kneeling is to low and standing exposes too much of the torso, further more you're not able to rest the weapon on the hood.

I think what most including me are looking for (was pointed out already) is the possibilty to take cover behind objects that are too high for crouch but too low for the standing stance and the option to rest the weapon on the surface.

These suggestions/wishes shouldn't be too difficult to implement and noone can argue that they would be in any way, shape or form unrealistic or too arcady.

[Demonized]

For the AI most definetly yes. for the players i think we have it almost as we want it.
having a auto cover button would kill the realism imo.
but having a peek up, down and sideways button would fix any current issues.
peek should be used anywere, not just in cover.

[Arokfridr]

I too enjoyed Vietcong's cover system!

[Rocklobster]

WEll, I think ARMA is fine w/o a cover system; I doubt it would add much to the game except make it more arcade-y unless it was done really well IMO. For the most part, there isn't any cover around when you're playing anyway, at least not anything that would be easy to bind to.

I'd imagine getting it right with all the oddly shaped rocks would be hard to do, and would probably end up frustrating the player. There's nothing more annoying than being in cover and still getting hit because your character isn't smart enough to get their ENTIRE body behind the object.

[_sherlock_]

Please do read the other posts. I took the time to read through 127 posts because I find the topic interesting and I tried to summerise some points in my last post. The discussion shouldn't be about a cover system like most opponents of the idea imagine and therefore believe it to be too arcad-y. It should just be more flexible in certain situation like the example I made with the humvee.


A common problem in Arma 2 is that taking cover behind for instance the hood of a Humvee isn't possible in a satisfactory way: kneeling is to low and standing exposes too much of the torso, further more you're not able to rest the weapon on the hood.

I think what most including me are looking for (was pointed out already) is the possibilty to take cover behind objects that are too high for crouch but too low for the standing stance and the option to rest the weapon on the surface.

[zooloo75]

I already said this, but I guess people missed it...

If we don't get a cover system, then atleast have the crouch stance adapt to nearby objects. For example, if you were crouched behind a humvee, then your character would either raise up a bit or lower depending on the height of the humvee or anything he is near.

[Demonized]

a simple peek system would fix all issues and not being arcady.

hold a button down, move mouse sideways or up or down, release button and that is your lean/stance. tap button again and go back to default of what stance you had before peeking, or hold and adjust peek again.

No need for adapting cover to any objects or anything.
Ofc this would only apply to human players, for AI they need more improvement, but thats a whole other issue.

[Richey79]

The cover system in Brother in Arms: Hell's Highway was pretty good I think. Something similar would be welcome.

WTF?

Go and play Gears of War instead of Arma 3 - it'll be more to your taste.

It would be good to see something like the community PVP animation system implemented, although I'm not a big fan of getting locked to a wall or blind fire.

[50.cal]

I wouldn't mind a 'stick-to-wall' cover system, but I'd prefer this, what they call 'Fluid Posture' in Raven Shield. I think you just held the shift key and moved the mouse, and you could incrementally lean or raise/lower your stance as much as you wanted. I think the AI should use a 'sticky' cover system because it would make them harder to hit and have the added benefit of making them look more human.

Since we're talking about a PC title I think the "Fluid Posture" would perfectly suits.
What bothers me more is the fact that I can't hit what I see without exposing myself too much or shoot at a wall instead of my target while I have a clear line of sight on it.
This is due to the fire geometry (I think) which makes the bullets come out of the barrel instead of the head.
Although this is perfect for AI since they can use sophisticated cover systems, I think it would be better to have this as an option for players not using track IR.
This or force the player to automatically adapt its stance as soon as the barrel hits a lod when he hold the weapon in ready position.
Also the option to deploy your weapon over any cover would be a must ;-)

[Trips]

This kind of feature would be a deal breaker for me. If infantry combat isn't given a real upgrade i'm not interested.

[SgtH3nry3]

The Raven Shield system was nice, but cumbersome. I prefer the automatic snap-to-height functionality in Vietcong. It works, it's realistic and it improves on the gameplay aswell.

All first-person, no gimmicks, no cheating. It's more or less the real deal, only virtual.

The Red Orchestra system with blind fire is also very nice. Reminds me of MINIMI training.

[4 IN 1]

Automatic height adjustmeny is the way to go.

[Lugiahua]

have to remind us that this game is set in near future where advanced weapon systems like Land Warrior or FCS developed.

It would be very important (at least to me) that players who carried such systems are able to use weapon cameras to peak around the corner without exposing themselves.

[schmambuman]

Perhaps there could just be something really simple, like being able to hold a button down to control how high you "peek" when you are crouching. Double tap to "lock" the position or something. Doesn't have to be anything amazingly complicated. Don't want the gears of war style cover though. And no blindfiring. It's kind of dumb to have in a game where you rarely face anyone in close enough combat for blindfiring to be effective.

[SpetS15]

There is a mod PvP Animation that uses some cover animations, we have it in our server and when we play coop and tvt, guess what... NOBODY uses it. The only thing we use, is the "F" taunt animation o.O

[heroes maker]

i would says yes to the cover system, but if you do it ... PLEASE NO FORCED 3RD PERSON CAMERA, it's not like i don't like to use it, it's just maybe for some people it'll be weird ( see the people who reject the idea of the TPS ), and for me, well sometimes i like doing some "super-realistic" trip

[LJF]

There is a mod PvP Animation that uses some cover animations, we have it in our server and when we play coop and tvt, guess what... NOBODY uses it. The only thing we use, is the "F" taunt animation o.O

Blind fire is really useful though, and I love, love being able to jog and fire at the same time, default A2 is so unrealistic for that :(

I don't think a cover system would be a good thing, they always feel constrained and awkward, works great for a 360 or PS3, but on a keyboard you have enough controls to be able to do the same things but have more control. In a game like ArmA it only takes a centimeter of your knee poking out from behind a wall (or an enemy unit positioned in such a way they can see that 1cm of knee) and you're gone.

[Smookie]

Please mind that my animation pack cover system was designed for specific purposes such as: peaking around the corner, delivering two-way grenade throwing system and more control over blindfire. The shooting is just "unrealistic" addition. I think, when you get used to it, it's pretty handy.

[r3volution]

@<hidden>, I love the idea of your pack and think its a great addition to the arma2/arrowhead mod scene. I suppose the biggest limitation for me is whether the AI use the animations too and in an appropriate way. This is what I see as the only limitation with modding this stuff into the game vs having it there from outset.

I'm very heartened though to read back through this thread and see on the poll how many people affirm the idea of a 1st person cover/fluid posture system. I honestly would have thought I was part of a small minority before but apparently, at least according to the limited poll, I'm part of a small majority! :)

Its not that I want to see Arma turn into Gears of Brothers in Arma... to those who seem to think that.

All I want is to be able to more effectively emulate the way in which actual military personel utilise cover on the battlefield, and have my stance (and that of my AI team-mates and opponents) adapt to the cover itself rather than be limited to 3 fixed postures which have no bearing on the amount of cover you have in front of you. Given that no trained serving soldier anywhere in the world would kneel behind low cover exposing his entire upper torso/head to the world, I feel its stupid that I'm expected to in Arma, the most realistic military shooter there is around. There, I said it...

:)

[woore]

Cover system?Does it mean arkade with taking cover by pressing TAB?Please not!

[r3volution]

@<hidden>: That depends on whether you read more than the last page of the thread before posting. Nobody wants an arcade cover system. But given you have no problem hitting 'x' to crouch, or 'z' to lie down, I don't see why there'd be a problem with hitting 'x' to shift to a fluid posture adapting to cover (not any of this velcro to wall BS though).

[Igneous01]

I voted yes for the cover system, if it is made similar to how RO2 is going to incorporate it, then yes Im all in.

I would also like to see the inclusion of peeking your head, not specifically taking up a firing position, but peeking over grass while prone, walls, etc. Then that would nullify the need for 3rd person when crawling through tall grass (where you cant see anything at all)

[Choki]

a simulation game without cover? a FPS without cover? a modern war without cover? if it had used dynamic coverage like in GTA 4 would be perfect

[4 IN 1]

a simulation game without cover? a FPS without cover? a modern war without cover? if it had used dynamic coverage like in GTA 4 would be perfect

Do you know what cover acturally mean in military terms?


@<hidden>: That depends on whether you read more than the last page of the thread before posting. Nobody wants an arcade cover system. But given you have no problem hitting 'x' to crouch, or 'z' to lie down, I don't see why there'd be a problem with hitting 'x' to shift to a fluid posture adapting to cover (not any of this velcro to wall BS though).

In my case I only use 2 key: Q and Z for all those stance changing stuff:p


@<hidden>, I love the idea of your pack and think its a great addition to the arma2/arrowhead mod scene. I suppose the biggest limitation for me is whether the AI use the animations too and in an appropriate way. This is what I see as the only limitation with modding this stuff into the game vs having it there from outset.


Thats why it have the word "PVP" on that pack, it mean to be used when PVP only.

Then again I find the pack not really useful for my mindset, too many key storke to remember and not always working = chance of mistake increase = death. I ended up just go back to my old, caveman way: simple move, single key + panic key press.

[elvinjones]

I think a cover system like GTA IV's 'lock in' cover would be terrible. It's counter to Arma's stylistic thesis of freedom - in this case freedom of movement.

Instead, the WAY one is able to manipulate his or her character's movement should approach realism, thus addressing anyone's desire to find cover in one way or the other.

[Militantsausage]

Yeah I have liked the look of certain cover systems from games such as red orchestra, where you can duck behind a wall keeping almost your whole entire body (or all of it) safe from small arms while staying in first person, and it also looks pretty simple, and it doesn't seem "velcro" like Rainbow six vegas, GTA 4 etc.

[That guy]

a weapon rest feature is needed before any cover "system" in my mind.

it maybe possible to implement them into the same thing. you move to an appropriate terrain feature, hit the "weapon rest", it snaps you to another animation behind or around the "cover" and a directional or stance change breaks it. none of the silly arcady glue back to surface stuff with 360ing out and head shoting instantly

[metalcraze]

Yeah I have liked the look of certain cover systems from games such as red orchestra, where you can duck behind a wall keeping almost your whole entire body (or all of it) safe from small arms while staying in first person

You can do the same in ArmA. Try pressing 'crouch'


a simulation game without cover? a FPS without cover? a modern war without cover? if it had used dynamic coverage like in GTA 4 would be perfect

ArmA2 has cover. Or am I missing something? Like the magical button of GTA4 that makes the player invincible as soon as it glues him to a specially pre-placed brick?

[NkEnNy]

I think cover systems appeal primarily to console players.

1. Most cover systems put you in a third person perspective-- more familiar to most console games granting the illusion of increased situational awareness.
2. Cover systems, particularly when employed against the AI, grant a moments respite or safety which buys you time to manipulate the clunky controls to put your crosshair on target.
3. Cover systems reduce the need for Lean left, lean right, and to a certain extent Crouch to a single button-- easier to manipulate on more limited console platforms.


While I'd love to be proven wrong, I believe cover systems to be unnecessary for shooters intended for a PC platform. The mouse-keyboard combo gives you unparalleled accuracy for both movement and shooting. Proof of this is seen in PC games such as Rb6 Vegas, where a cover system when used for other things than camping is usually a deathtrap as it sees you swiftly outmanoeuvred, flanked and destroyed.

The most successful implementation of a cover system that I've experienced so far interestingly enough enables it only for the AI. A sensible option as this creates a immersive AI and gives them a small leg up in surviving. The Call of Duty series does this to great effect.

As far as I know the two most popular tactical-shooter franchises Call of Duty and Battlefied are both making due without a cover system.

-k

[metalcraze]

Proof of this is seen in PC games such as Rb6 Vegas

Ughhh. R6Vegas is a console game.


The most successful implementation of a cover system that I've experienced so far interestingly enough enables it only for the AI. A sensible option as this creates a immersive AI and gives them a small leg up in surviving. The Call of Duty series does this to great effect.
Excuse me? How many of those hundreds and hundreds of "AI"s you kill in 4 hours get a "small leg up in surviving"?
("AI" because CoD has no AI. Static turrets that play stance-bunny-hopping animations behind a box != AI)


I agree with you. But your examples are wrong :)

[NodUnit]

We do have a cover system, it's just more dynamic and manual requiring you to either crouch or prone and use the lean keys O.o

[Trips]

1. Most cover systems put you in a third person perspective-- more familiar to most console games granting the illusion of increased situational awareness.
2. Cover systems, particularly when employed against the AI, grant a moments respite or safety which buys you time to manipulate the clunky controls to put your crosshair on target.
3. Cover systems reduce the need for Lean left, lean right, and to a certain extent Crouch to a single button-- easier to manipulate on more limited console platforms. Points 1 and 3 are features you see often but they're not necessary features of a cover system, see Red Orchestra 2. If a cover system is implemented, which I hope it is, i'd also hope it wouldn't have those features.

Point 2 is kind of the whole idea of cover.



While I'd love to be proven wrong, I believe cover systems to be unnecessary for shooters intended for a PC platform. The mouse-keyboard combo gives you unparalleled accuracy for both movement and shooting.I think there's room for improvement with movement. Analogue stances is something that gets resuggested for the Arma series every so often; being able to hold alt and precisely adjust your stance up and down. That could be an example of a cover system, it lets you use the in-game objects as cover a lot more effectively than the current stances and their slow transition animations do.


Proof of this is seen in PC games such as Rb6 Vegas, where a cover system when used for other things than camping is usually a deathtrap as it sees you swiftly outmanoeuvred, flanked and destroyed.I don't think R6V makes for a good example. Compare the average engagement distances. In R6V it's practically all CQB, where being mobile is more important.



As far as I know the two most popular tactical-shooter franchises Call of Duty and Battlefied are both making due without a cover system. Good for them, those are two titles I hope Arma never tries to emulate. They're a different genre as far as i'm concerned. (Battlefield I think could actually benefit from a cover system)




We do have a cover system, it's just more dynamic and manual requiring you to either crouch or prone and use the lean keys O.o
We have (some) cover and stances but putting trying to use the two together isn't always happy times.

[Katipo66]

Not entirely related but Red River has a good system for cover, yes that game...

It seems if you are behind a wall and press aim, your weapon moves just above the wall enabling you to fire, not all walls but most of them that are of a height that you should be able to.

In arma if you crouch behind a wall you are limited to the the height of the crouch animation, so making it impossible to shoot from behind the wall because you are a few centimeters to low and therefore need to stand and expose yourself.

[ST_Dux]

If ArmA 3 doesn't get a cover system, then it at least needs weapon resting and a fluid stance system. Having only three options --standing, kneeling and prone -- is neither sufficient from a gameplay standpoint nor is it realistic.

[2nd Ranger]

Come to think of it, the only thing I liked about Dragon Rising was that when you were crouched behind low cover and you went into optics mode, you automatically peeked over the top of the object while obviously looking down your sight, then when you released the optic button you ducked behind the cover again. And as I recall you didn't get 'stuck' to the cover, but it was a while ago so maybe I'm wrong about that last part.

[chris64]

Come to think of it, the only thing I liked about Dragon Rising was that when you were crouched behind low cover and you went into optics mode, you automatically peeked over the top of the object while obviously looking down your sight, then when you released the optic button you ducked behind the cover again. And as I recall you didn't get 'stuck' to the cover, but it was a while ago so maybe I'm wrong about that last part.

Agreed, I remember Vietcong doing this, and it definitely made firefights a lot more intuitive and fun

[metalcraze]

Except it will ruin them for AA2.

In AA2 you look at your surrounding more than anything. Popping out of cover only when aiming will completely ruin the gameplay.

Not mentioning it not being realistic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDSkdt1ViSo

do you see people constantly popping in and out of cover to shoot here?
No.
Do you see people resting their weapons on cover most of the time while observing and shooting?
Yes.


Real world firefights do look static. They are not hollywoodish bunnyhopping from behind concrete bricks with holding weapon in all retarded ways.

[ST_Dux]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDSkdt1ViSo
Presently, you can't do 99% of what is shown in that video within ArmA. For one thing, you can't rest your weapon at all; you need to be prone to be accurate, which is completely ridiculous. You also can't line up nicely with cover like that unless you are up against something that is exactly at crouching or standing height and you only need to aim straight ahead, which is a rare combination. And if you want to duck away and protect yourself as you see done in that video several times, you need to awkwardly go full prone rather than simply move back behind whatever it is you are using for cover.

A system similar to the one used in Vietcong would be much more realistic than the current ArmA system. In the real world, people don't rigidly switch between three distinct stances, only using the ground for weapon support.

[metalcraze]

Actually you can rest your weapon in ACE2 mod.

And somehow ACE2 manages to determine if the height of the object you are resting a weapon on is sufficiently high enough for it to get rested. In turn it steadies the weapon although you can't rotate fast (logically).

Which in turn says that engine can do that.

That's why I keep repeating that BIS should rip off some of the core features of ACE2 for their vanilla games.

I'm not against fluid stances. A fluid stance a la old R6 may work too - just don't force it on us like in OFP Derp Rising - make it adjustable on demand not automatically force it.
I will be more than happy to hold control and move mouse higher or lower to peek above the wall

[2nd Ranger]

FAKE EDIT: uh, ST DUX basically said everything I had already typed out, but anyway:

You know what else I see those people doing? Tailoring the height of their stance to suit the cover they are hiding behind. Unless fluid posture is implemented in A3, the next best thing is being able to fluidly rest your weapon on the object so you're exposing only as much of your body as is required to return fire. Yes, I said rest your weapon, because that's what the DR thing basically did - I didn't say you should 'pop in and out of cover only when aiming', that's just how it worked in that game.

Currently in A2, if you are hiding behind a low wall and start taking fire, your only options of returning fire are to either go prone and edge out to the side of the wall, or to crouch from the prone position and try to get some shots off, then go prone again. This is clunky and dangerous.

REAL EDIT: Also, the very nature of a fluid posture feature means it is virtually impossible to 'force' on players. The way it works in RvS, the only game I've seen it in, you need to hold down a specific key for it and use the mouse to adjust your stance, while regular crouch and prone keys are still available. There's no way of making someone use it, unless they do away with normal stance controls.

[ST_Dux]

@<hidden>:
I am aware of the weapon resting feature in ACE2; it's probably my favorite single feature of the whole mod. But really, it's something that should be a stock feature in an FPS that touts itself as a simulator.