Steamworks, add it in or not?

[Cookieeater]

The most important features that I view Steamworks brings to the table. I got this info off from Steamworks (http://steampowered.com/steamworks/index.php) main page.


Persistent identity framework


Achievements, leaderboards, profiles, and avatars make your game come alive, building your community and providing a strong incentive to play more and recruit others.
http://steampowered.com/steamworks/images/pic_sw_gs_01.gif

Multiplayer matchmaking


Steamworks' multiplayer back-end is powered by robust matchmaking and lobby technology. The same technology that drives the quick and accurate match-ups in Left 4 Dead can be used in your game. Works with both peer-to-peer and server-based games. Steamworks' built-in voice functionality enables players to work quickly to strategize their next misson.
http://steampowered.com/steamworks/images/pic_sw_gs_02.jpg

The Steam Community


Your game becomes the talk of the town as part of Steam’s large and connected Steam Community. Friends will see friends playing your game and will be able to organize matches, compare achievements, and talk about the next match, sequels, favorite parts, or their favorite villain.
http://steampowered.com/steamworks/images/pic_sw_gs_03.jpg

In-game DLC


Sell additional content from within your game to the customers who want it most. Steamworks provides true in-game DLC, allowing customers to select, buy, and use DLC — all without leaving the game. Additionally, using Steamworks' DLC does not close off your other channels. You are still free to sell the content at retail, either with other online sites or through the Steam store.
http://steampowered.com/steamworks/images/pic_sw_gs_05.jpg

Anti-cheat


With true cheat detection, keep cheaters from ruining it for the rest of us. Extend the life and sales of your game by making sure that the game plays as you intended it to when you shipped.

Access from any computer


Your customers can sign in and use their game from any PC or Mac. Access to their games is based on a customer account, not tied to a computer. Plus, with built-in offline mode, your customers can play on laptops when traveling — or anywhere else.

Voice chat


With built-in voice chat, players can talk to each other both inside and outside the game.


Steam Anti-Piracy


Steamworks' anti-piracy suite combines three approaches to anti-piracy: (1) Custom Executable Generation, (2) Retail Encryption, and (3) Valuable Platform-Dependent Features. These work together to provide a seamless end-user experience, protecting your game and giving real value to customers.

http://steampowered.com/steamworks/images/pic_sw_ps_2010.gif


1. Custom Executable Generation
Custom Executable Generation creates a unique build of your game for each user, making it difficult for any one user to share the game with any other user. Each individual copy of a CEG-protected game is only playable by the Steam account authorized to access it. CEG is transparent, and does not impose limits on users. It lets users access their content from any hardware, and allows unlimited hardware configuration changes without the content becoming unplayable. In fact, no changes are made to a user's computer for CEG to work. Instead, CEG works in tandem with Steam authentication, enabling content access based on user accounts, not arbitrary hardware-based "rights-management" restrictions.

2. Retail Encryption
Protect your day-one release by shipping encrypted media to stores world-wide. No need to worry that your game will leak from a replicator or stock room - your game stays encrypted until the moment you decide to release it.

Encryption technology also allows you to preload your game to users on Steam. Download encrypted data weeks in advance so that players have access to your game the moment it's released, increasing player numbers and satisfaction during the critical first days.

3. Valuable Platform-Dependent Features
Customers won't want to pirate a game that's connected to 20 million gamers and a feature-rich platform. Features like Steam Achievements, Anti-Cheat, Auto-Updating, and Steam Cloud simply dont exist outside of Steam.

Furthermore, constantly updating your game with upgrades and content leaves the pirates in the dust they are relegated to a featureless game with no community of players.

Beta-testing


Run secure public betas of your game. Hold public betas and choose from one participant to thousands, if you like. The timing and scope of the beta is up to you.


Free Weekends and Guest Passes

Hold events like Free Weekends (or any length play period) to entice customers and promote your game. Then securely and efficiently turn the promotion off at the end of the period. Also available is guest pass technology that allows you to promote your game through your community. Let friends give free, limited-time passes to their friends. This is proven tech that has been used with our games and third parties.

Real-time sales data


Log on to your personal sales and data tracking site and see your product’s statistics up-to-the-minute. Don’t wait for weeks to find out where and how your game is selling. Real-time, worldwide activation and use reports give you the detail you need to make informed decisions about marketing and retail conditions when they need to be made.

http://steampowered.com/steamworks/images/pic_sw_ps_01.gif



As a person who owns 64 games on Steam, I really like Steam as a whole. I'd really like some of the Steamworks features such as the server browser, stats, and right clicking on a friend whose playing ArmA II to instantly join their server.

You can read more here if you're interested in it.
http://steampowered.com/steamworks/index.php

[Nicholas]

I own 80+ games on steam and I would 100% love to see some steam integration. Maruk even said that quite a few of the ArmA sales were made on steam. I'll see if I can find the post...

I personally believe that steam is a great platform not only to manage the game, but also to advertise it. Currently steam has nearly 2 million players on. That is quite a large number which can easily access the game.

[ArmAriffic]

no steam, keep it optional!!!!!
There is already a thread for steam in A3 (http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=119471)

[Celery]

I was extremely pissed off when I heard that Deus Ex 3 was a Steamworks game. I can't imagine what I'd do if Arma 3 was the same.

[metalcraze]

I don't want avatars and achievements for children - only to suffer from not being able to have a choice whether to have a problematic DRM that also messes with mods or not and running Steam's bloatware when I will need all resources for ArmA3.

[Celery]

Quoting myself from the earlier Steam thread:


- A Steam account is a static immaterial investment that gains value but said value cannot be exchanged back to money except when sold whole, although Valve frowns upon that, too.
- As a rule Steam prices for new games is way, way too high especially considering the above point.
- Steam doesn't evoke trust as a platform for heavily moddable games.
- Some people want to keep physical copies of their favorite games out of sentiment or independence from needlessly authoritarian connection, software and consumer unfriendly term requirements.
- Regarding consumer unfriendliness, Steam has a no refunds policy no matter how cheated you feel.


Strangely enough that kind of consumer rights butchery is not evident in non-downloaded non-Steam games, i.e. you can sell the copy to someone else. Movies are someone's IP as well, yet you can sell any and all DVDs you might have because they don't require you to bind them to a personal online account for all eternity.


Any consumer who knows their rights will wipe their ass with terms and conditions that are shown only after the product is bought. Reselling a legal physical copy is not prohibited anywhere as far as I know, and Steam is enforcing its own made-up rules that limit the consumer's rights compared to a physical product and the rules are solely for the benefit of Valve and its clients at the expense of customers who would normally have every right to pass their copies on to others.


a Steam-activated boxed game is the worst kind of deal you can get. It usually doesn't have a manual, it's a slower and usually an even more expensive way to get a Steam game, and after forever binding the game to a single account, the box and the installation media becomes garbage because you can't sell it to anyone and you can install the game by downloading it.


I still don't get why some Steam fans want everyone else to buy their games on Steam whether they like it or not. The lack of empathy and perspective is frankly astounding.

[kylania]

I bought ArmA and ArmA2 from Steam. In both cases I ended up uninstalling the games and buying the DVD versions for multiple reasons. Horrible patching, ridiculously delayed patching, full game instead of only changed file patching, Steam problems preventing me from playing my games, having to log in to play my games online even for single player (and no, 'offline mode' is not a valid solution since you have to be online to enable that, so if my cable goes down I'm out of luck), Steam's moronicly long file path causes mods to break, registry nonsense to even get the game to play and so on...

I've never had problems with DVD versions and I've only had problems with Steam versions for ArmA. For some games it's just fine, but for ArmA... DVD always. Also, leaderboards are for silly people.

[Ebolavirus]

there's a nice feeling going to a shop, perusing the titles and imagining the hours of enjoyment you may yet get to experience if and when you decide to own it. there's a nice feeling, as on your way home you get to open it and read through the manual and the glossy sale brochures that don't interest you but you read them anyway. there's a nice feeling once you get home, installing it and knowing everything contained in that bundle is everything you need to play it. No virtual middleman saying, hey guess what, you don't get to own this experience yet buddy.

So tell me, why does it need to be more complicated than that?

[dunedain]

I own around 130 games on Steam, so I do like this platform.

Yet, I kind of agree with Celery and kylania opinions, hence why I bought all my BIS games on retail. I don't see how Steamworks features could benefit Arma3.

The really good thing with Steam is that well it saves room, you have no download limit for you games and they never get old like when I broke my OFP CD "bought july 2001" about 3 or 4 years ago, while I had a urge to reinstall it. Wouldn't matter if I had it on Steam.. So now the broken CD rests in its box alongside its 7 brothers.. :butbut:

[Rebel44]

I like features like STeam Cloud, so Yes.

[Derbysieger]

I have to agree with celery and kylania. No Steamworks please.

[Demonized]

HELL NO!!, NO STEAM!!, leave it optional.
For online purchases sprocket works perfectly, same as a DvD purchase.

[xxbbcc]

I do NOT want Steam and will never, ever, ever buy anything there.

[Deadfast]

Just the avoid the usual confusion, Steam is not the same as Steamworks.

Steam is an online distribution platform with a client.
Steamworks is an API that the developer implements into the game making the Steam client a requirement to run the game. Even with retail DVD copies.

[xxbbcc]

Steamworks is an API that the developer implements into the game making the Steam client a requirement to run the game. Even with retail DVD copies.

Well, that's even worse than Steam.

[11aTony]

I belive this thread is about Steam vs. Steamworks and not non-steam vs. steam ArmA 3. From what I have seen I would say no or only partial Steamworks as well.
However, IF I would have Steam for some reason, it is nice if you can just right click on your friends name and join his game. Or if you could go into a party and then together join a dedicated server.

[Enad]

I already made a thread about this just yesterday, I'm all for it honestly.
Thought I wouldn't be sad if it didn't end up with Steamworks integration.

[Big Dawg KS]

I don't want avatars and achievements for children - only to suffer from not being able to have a choice whether to have a problematic DRM that also messes with mods or not and running Steam's bloatware when I will need all resources for ArmA3.

Again, spreading misinformation like it's fact. How can you be so hypocritical about Steam causing imaturity while you yourself are acting so childish? How many times have these myths been disproved?

Honestly, Deadfast is the only one here objecting that is actually informed enough to make said objections.

Integrating Steamworks will make the game require Steam to be installed. It does not force you to buy it on or through Steam.

[Celery]

It does not force you to buy it on or through Steam.

The inevitable end result is what makes people hate it. You end up buying a soulbound license with poor customer rights instead of a copy that you can get rid of in any manner you please, even though normally it's the other way around with non-downloaded games.

[Darkhorse 1-6]

Again, spreading misinformation like it's fact. How can you be so hypocritical about Steam causing imaturity while you yourself are acting so childish? How many times have these myths been disproved?

Honestly, Deadfast is the only one here objecting that is actually informed enough to make said objections.

Integrating Steamworks will make the game require Steam to be installed. It does not force you to buy it on or through Steam.

Add me to that list, just replace my use of "Steam" with "Steamworks". I hadn't slept in two days & realized all the points I had made were about Steamworks, not steam. I don't have a problem with Steam other than it being buggy, but Steamworks? KISS :D

[Zipper5]

I wouldn't want Steamworks integration, personally. The fact that even retail DVD versions require the game to be installed via, and activated in, Steam is ridiculous, and I learned my lesson after I bought my hard copy of FEAR 2.

[lwlooz]

Oh my god,

Either you people are everywhere with a more brainwashed fundamentalism than scientology and jehova's witnesses combined ,
or Valve has programmed the most advanced spambots in history of mankind.

Steamworks offers nothing to customers. N-o-t-h-i-n-g.
It may be neat for some developers and is most certainly neat for Valve.

But stop being delusional fanboys and think it adds anything to any game.
And no , I am not interested in hearing your standard robot copy&paste replies why you think it is awesome and I am a luddite.

It's like an Zombie Apocalypse. Everywhere you go you have these Steamagers wanting to turn their PC into consoles. *Sigh*

[Big Dawg KS]

Either you people are everywhere with a more brainwashed fundamentalism than scientology and jehova's witnesses combined

Aren't you confusing the two sides here? I haven't seen any good objections to Steamworks that didn't seem like fundamentalism (including your post, which has no hard factual reasons for objection). In fact, I've seen more copy/past replies from the objectors (ex: Steam breaks/messes up mods, which is completely untrue).

Also, I agree that the benefits of Steamworks to the customers are not very obvious, but it would allow BIS to better integrate the game with Steam and fix all of the issues that people are always compaining about in the first place. Still, I believe that integration of Steamworks can do nothing but overall improve the ArmA series.

[Demonized]

I say it again, HELL NO to any form of steam relations for Arma3!!

BIS should imo step completely away from Steam, and rely solely on hardcopys and sprocket ,wich is an fantastic, fully working, bug free service compared to steam.
Sprocket works perfectly, download, alternatively also save download to a burned Dvd, or redownload again if needed anytime.
That would give BIS developers more time to work on game issues, instead of having to spread it out on game issues, and game issues for steam.

1 other reason, is steams capitalism and suffocating market beheaviour, no small companys are given any fair chance of surviving or getting started.
Steam is somewhat what MS had reputation for in the past, monopolising the market, and putting in physical blocks to circumvent such monoploism.
"monopolizing or whatever its called..."

But just the issues with steam in any way regarding armas open user edited beheaviour should be enough for anyone to reject steam.
How many threads and issues have not been reported in the past on steam related stuff wich Dvd or sprocket users never had?
Answer: many many...
How much time have been spent on fixing steam issues instead of working on AI or game bugs....

If someone now comes with a comment about "steam offers a huge arena for sales", yeah thats true, but its also closed off from the rest, furthering the monopoly of steam.
Noone wants just one person to decide prices on games, we want fair competition in the world, keeping prices real.
There are other marketing posibilitys.

[neokika]

1 other reason, is steams capitalism and suffocating market beheaviour, no small companys are given any fair chance of surviving or getting started.
Steam is somewhat what MS had reputation for in the past, monopolising the market, and putting in physical blocks to circumvent such monoploism.
"monopolizing or whatever its called..."

Oh my,

I believe you got it a bit wrong, Steam is actually one of the best places independent developers can put their work with much more marketing and profits.

_neo_

[NoRailgunner]

Nice...

I got this info off from Steamworks (http://steampowered.com/steamworks/index.php) main page.
Oh look - some advertising on their own site...


Still, I believe that integration of Steamworks can do nothing but overall improve the ArmA series. ...is it rhetoric or did you just watched too many political discussions? :p

[JDMT]

These features are for Arcade like games. I can't imagine any ArmA III player wanting to automatically go into a match like a console. Or have a spray. Achievements are a waste of time for a game like this.

I use Steam on a daily basis, I just believe ArmA III should stay as far away from it as possible.

[Demonized]

Oh my,

I believe you got it a bit wrong, Steam is actually one of the best places independent developers can put their work with much more marketing and profits.

_neo_
what i meant was in regards to monopolize the sales market, meaning only steam can eventually sell games...

Maybe its great for independent developers, but for the customers its bad.
Customers, thats us.

[Enad]

@<hidden> You gotta be kidding, some Indie devs wouldn't be ANYWHERE without Steam.
Steam is the best thing that's happened to alot of indie devs including the Tripwire Team.

Steam is also great for it's customers, it's easy and fast. I can't think of anything bad about it besides downloading takes longer than having a disk, but hell if you have a decent internet connection it's fine.


@<hidden> It's not automatically going into a server like a console, I'm sure you've played other valve games and when you want to join a friend just click the arrow next to their name and click Join Game and you're in, it simplifies things alot and would make it easier for everyone, not to mention alot more accessible for new comers.

[Celery]

Steam is also great for it's customers, it's easy and fast.
Only as long as they are using Steam voluntarily. Steamworks makes using Steam very non-voluntary.

[Derbysieger]

Yeah IF you have a decent internet connection. For example I get max. 2.7MByte/s (and if I was willing to pay more I could have that doubled) but a friend who lives about 10km away only gets ~470kbit/s ... I usually d/l large patches for him and bring them to him.

[JojoTheSlayer]

I would say yes, implement it.
Since if they do all the patching issues will be gone because EVERYONE would need to use the client and therefor the only patched need to be released was the Steam one.

Further more steam has beta patch features that means you dont really need to do anything to patch or take parts in betas.

For vanilla stuff this would only mean that every client of A3 would be the same versions always. Unlike now.

And lets not forget the Community features.
For unpopular games its great to have a few community groups that post popups when special events are happening. Ergo you can attract more players on demand when you do special stuff.


--------------------------------
Edit:
People should start to get over there fear of online stuff because that is the future.
Maybe some people want more players for A3 than A2 has, but that needs the game to be accessible on the main seller platform. Right now the DvD release is easier to manage because there is a Dvd release. Basically the none Steamworks DvD and released manual installed patches are making issues for Steam. The main seller for PC games.
That is a economical issue in my view where I think people should look past their personal pref for the greater good of the gaming community tbh.

[Heatseeker]

If im buying retail i shouldnt have to run bloat just to play the game, i was too happy when i found where to disable that steam shite that pops up while im gaming.

Steam patching sux too, you dont patch, you download patched files and i dont see any advantage in re-downloading half the game every time BIS releases a patch.

Tbh i prefer clean software, the advantages are obvious.

[xxbbcc]

Integrating Steamworks will make the game require Steam to be installed. It does not force you to buy it on or through Steam.

As far as I'm concerned, it is the same thing. It doesn't matter that I didn't know the difference between the two - I'd promptly leave Arma if any connection to Steam would be introduced as a requirement.

An option, in which I could choose to not to install absolutely any part of it would probably be fine.

Just for the record, I consider Steam and their infrastructure spyware.

[SWAT_CDN]

I do NOT want Steam and will never, ever, ever buy anything there.

AMEN TO THAT :eek:

Steamworks = Steam Client install "SCREW THAT".

Something I don't understand is why this keeps coming up it has "LOST" in the surveys hands down numerous times.

[xxbbcc]

Also, I agree that the benefits of Steamworks to the customers are not very obvious, but it would allow BIS to better integrate the game with Steam and fix all of the issues that people are always compaining about in the first place.

You're making a circular argument - use Steamworks integration to better integrate Steam into the game to fix issues with Steam. How about just not having Steam at all and then no issues to fix and no need to integrate.

If BIS wants to sell the game on Steam to people who want to buy it there, fine, it's their decision. If they're also making a Steam-specific version to Steam users, that's fine too. However, if the game starts requiring any registration with Steam or use Steam components in a mandatory way, I'm leaving immeditately.

I'm not willing to sponsor a company (Valve) whose only purpose in existence is to make it problematic to use the product I own and paid for.

[Big Dawg KS]

You're making a circular argument - use Steamworks integration to better integrate Steam into the game to fix issues with Steam. How about just not having Steam at all and then no issues to fix and no need to integrate.

Because dropping Steam support would be an extremely foolish move by BIS. It's quite implicit that Steam has greatly influenced ArmA 2's sales. Fixing any issues that the game has with Steam will increase the amount of customers on Steam.


I'm not willing to sponsor a company (Valve) whose only purpose in existence is to make it problematic to use the product I own and paid for.

Yes, you've made your ignorance very well known. You have even admitted that you don't care to understand the details; so I don't see any reason why anyone should listen to your objections.

I'm not saying that people should like Steam, but it's disgusting how ignorant people are about it.

---------- Post added at 11:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:00 PM ----------


Something I don't understand is why this keeps coming up it has "LOST" in the surveys hands down numerous times.

It will continue to resurface, even after this. It won't go away, and the demand will only increase. And since just about every argument against it has been countered, the people who do want it will keep asking.

[Flogger23m]

If it is the Steam version, sure. But I do not want Steam for ArmA 3.

For the same reason I don't want the Steam versions of DCS. My PC will run them poor enough already, I don't want another program running in the background.

I like Steam for other games, but wouldn't want it for ArmA 3.

The issue of auto updating and the inability to play older patch versions (only the latest) is annoying to. Many mods require certian patches to work.

[AnimalMother92]

I'm all for it. I'd love to see BI products enhanced by Steam.

[TheRev709]

I like Steam, it works; easier to install games every time I rebuild my rig or reinstall some new version of Windows; no complaints. Steamworks, sure, for the steam version why not? Honestly I'm indifferent because with or without it it doesn't affect me.

[metalcraze]

As the poll shows 2/3 of people want to have a choice.

The fact that there is already a Steam version of ArmA2 and yet people still complain proves that all that they want are childish avatars and achievements.

There are many alternative server browsers for ArmA2 and nothing stops BIS from improving their own - so "server browser is crap!!1" is just an excuse.

[xxbbcc]

Yes, you've made your ignorance very well known. You have even admitted that you don't care to understand the details; so I don't see any reason why anyone should listen to your objections.

Exacatly which part of my argument shows ignorance? I admitted I didn't know how Steam and Steamworks weren't the same but seeing how both requires Steam to be installed, I fail to see how that makes a difference.


I'm not saying that people should like Steam, but it's disgusting how ignorant people are about it.Why should anyone be enthusiastic about it at all? It's s a 3rd party service that makes software more expensive and limits your rights. Why would I, in any way, be expected to even know about it? (Which I do, but that's not important.)

If BIS wants to make a specific Steam version of the game (in addition to the normal one), I'm ok with it - if a customer feels like paying extra for no added value, who am I to interfere with that?

I, however, (and I repeat myself, so I'll stop) don't want that trash on my computer. If you do, that's your choice but if BIS makes that choice a requirement, they'll lose money on the other side.

[Leader]

No Steam thanks.

[PanamanianDevil]

Steam is awesome... Steamworks is even better. I vote yes.

I can understand why some don't want Steam in the mix but they should be accurate with their claims. I have seen where Steam servers being down prevent multi-player gaming. This is a true claim. But it's hardly ever down.

Steam offline mode had to be activated while online in the past. That really did defeat the purpose of the mode but has been fixed a long time ago. Now it's not required.

My prediction however is that Arma 3 will be available on Steam, but I'm guessing it won't be a Steamworks title. Either way, if it's on Steam, I'll be happy. The biggest reasons I like Steamworks is for the cloud (I play on multiple PC's) and achievements. Achievements really are achievements when they relate to how you strategized to beat a particular scenario. I realize developers make gimme achievements, but I like the more structured ones.

[OnlyRazor]

Steam is the devil's bloatware. Sure, it's useful every now and then, but once Steamworks is implemented, it's forced. You can't opt out if you want to play the game.

NIET

[ziiip]

The fact that there is already a Steam version of ArmA2 and yet people still complain proves that all that they want are childish avatars and achievements.

Not sure if you noticed, but achievements are the fundamental pillar of any good game. Why should devs waste time and resource on advanced physics when then can spend that time creating such epic achievements as "congratulations, you managed to start the game".

[Pulverizer]

The fact that there is already a Steam version of ArmA2 and yet people still complain proves that all that they want are childish avatars and achievements.

Yeah, it can't possibly be because BIS takes forever to upload patches on Steam and because you can't join Arma2 servers via friends list etc etc. It must be the achievements no one actually gives a shit about :rolleyes:

Only pirates and game-reselling communists dislike Steam, it's proven by my magic 8-ball.

[RangerPL]

No.

Hell no.

Achievements, Leaderboards and pointless shit would just invite more arcade shooter noobs and K/D whores to crap on our game. Steamworks is fine for Team Fortress 2 and Left 4 Dead, but please, let's keep it out of ArmA.

[Iratus]

Sell ArmA 3 on Stam? Yes.
Those people who like the services Steam provides for them (mainly autopatching and all that) may buy it there. And the presence there will result in more sales for BIS (wich then means more money can get invested in cool addons, ArmA 4 and so on)
I own many games on Steam, but I will buy ArmA 3 boxed or at Sprocket (if digital) because I want to run mods on it - Steams habit of autopatching and saving the gamefiles in predefined locations sometimes doesn't work well with mods. So I want to stay in control here.

Integrate Steamworks into ArmA 3? No.
If Steamworks gets integrated in ArmA 3 we all have to register it (aka soulbind) to Steam even if we bought it elsewhere, and we have to run Steam in the background. And what advantages do we get? Achievements, leaderboards, profiles, and avatars? I don't need them (and we allready have squad.xml including squadlogos wich are way cooler). Matchmaking? Sure, the ability to invite friends directly onto the server you are currently playing comes in handy, but i don't want to get "soulbinded" just to have the option to be lazy. I dont see the pros outweigh the cons here.

[Madus_Maximus]

Not sure where you lot have been for the last 5 years, but you can't really sell second ahdn PC games these days, even retail. They're almost all linked to some kind of account (SOME aren't, most are), and what's worse is the added value to getting the full price thing is gone as you get codes for the DLC and so on, but they're linked to that account I mentioned before.

Also, again, not sure where you've been, but most places don't even sell PC games any more, and if they do their selection is pitiful at best. It's just a shelf full of The Sims 3 and its countless addons/DLC and some ancient games from PC's glory days in a 3 for £10 deal. Steam is about the only place you can get new games these days, for good or bad.

---------- Post added at 03:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:17 AM ----------


No.

Hell no.

Achievements, Leaderboards and pointless shit would just invite more arcade shooter noobs and K/D whores to crap on our game. Steamworks is fine for Team Fortress 2 and Left 4 Dead, but please, let's keep it out of ArmA.

Really? I can't see that. ArmA games are so far removed from the kind of games you see people compete for things like that in they'd give up pretty soon as it doesn't fit their game style, or they'll learn to love it and become a new member of the community and open their minds to new kind of combat games that don't have "Call of Battlefield: Warfare Duty" in the name.

I don't understand this mindset that new people joining the community is a bad thing, it's extremely elitist and arrogant. If people join in that are used to more fast paced games, they'll soon leave if they can't handle it, or they'll learn to play. What do we stand to lose if more "casual" people start playing other than our false sense of superiority?

[ArmAriffic]

Sell it on steam? Yes
Force it on steam? Fuck no

[PuFu]

i don't really see any real gain for game such as A3 running via steamworks...maybe i am missing some important point here..

I would much rather have an improved MP screen (it is the only thing that i can see a plus with stw) rather than have steam's

[Hellhound]

Optional stuff i don't care about, but no way in hell i'd buy a Steam only game. It's like vendor lock-in DRM. Apart from the ridiculous prices they sell their games at (in europe). No more selling games you own etc.. i could go on and on but i won't.

[crazyjake56]

Most of you won't even use the steam version and I doubt that BIS would leave it steam only so for those of you that are whining about no steamworks, you have nothing to worry about anyway. collect (Metaphorical) dust. A couple leaderboards couldn't hurt the game or the community anyway.

[nuxil]

SteamWorks, oh god no.

if people want some sort of stats/leaderboard. i bet there will be Bstats (http://armalive.com/)for A3 aswell.
so it will be all up to mission makers to include it or not.

[CameronMcDonald]

Sell it on Steam, but kindly offer other versions too.

[Darkhorse 1-6]

Hell no!

[Pulverizer]

i don't really see any real gain for game such as A3 running via steamworks...maybe i am missing some important point here..

That might be the mod integration, like Red Orchestra:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/1280/

Not a huge deal but I think it would be rather convenient if I could just left-click to get the most popular mods like ACE, PR, and CWR and they would stay updated automatically and have their separate server browser. Servers could also use this functionality with HLDS which is available also for Linux.

Also it might better expose to the average gamer how much more value is added to Arma by its mods.

[Kaeptn_Blaubaer]

Optional for the Steam-Fanboys ok. But not as a must. This will waste it.

And for the Mod (updating) stuff there are solutions out there.

[Pulverizer]

And for the Mod (updating) stuff there are solutions out there.

Sure. But the thing is if I were a new player:

-I already have Steam and I trust and like it

-I don't know if there are mods for Arma. I guess there must be because I get kicked from some servers but I can't be arsed to search from where to get them or to install them by hand

-I haven't ever even heard about those other solutions and I really wouldn't want to install some unofficial weird software programmed by some dude in his bedroom anyway

[Inlesco]

Those problematic and [annoying] Steam-ish dependancies are spreading out like an agressive virus nowadays.

'Course they add more functionality, but I personally hate developers when they sign a deal to make their game only available on Valve's platform. It'd be much better to continously keep illusory democracy in virtuality [we're allowed to choose what's better!].

I am sure BIS wouldn't want to make their games totally Steam'd as an independent developer. Such studios clearly understand the value of freedom in your actions and final decisions.

[Serclaes]

-I don't know if there are mods for Arma. I guess there must be because I get kicked from some servers but I can't be arsed to search from where to get them or to install them by hand

-I haven't ever even heard about those other solutions and I really wouldn't want to install some unofficial weird software programmed by some dude in his bedroom anyway

If at least you had an idea of what you're talking about. Half the forum is about user made content. Like these multiplayer missions arma downloaded for you so you can play them online...
I suggest you head over to those parts of the forum and get some clues before you judge.

btt:
I bought some games off steam. And I've got to say it's a comfortable way of getting games. But everytime I can't play a game because steam is down, I hate myself for having games tied to steam. I'd rather buy ArmA3 off Sprocket anyhow.

[MavericK96]

I'd kinda like to see it be Steamworks, but it's not necessary.

[Pulverizer]

if at least you had an idea of what you're talking about. Half the forum is about user made content. Like these multiplayer missions arma downloaded for you so you can play them online...
I suggest you head over to those parts of the forum and get some clues before you judge.

Yes but you see I haven't even visited this forum, and don't have any interest to. I'm happy playing vanilla but if there were some cool-looking mods I could just install on Steam maybe I'd give them a try and really see what's all the rage.

[NoRailgunner]

Necro a thread with your first posting... ? :rolleyes:
last post: May 23 2011 08:58
necro date: January 28 2012 21:11

IIRC BI informed the community to use Desura:
http://www.desura.com/company/bohemia-interactive

[Celery]

Sprocket (http://www.sprocketidea.com/joomla/) is where BI would prefer people to buy their games, as there are no middlemen. :)

[OnlyRazor]

The guy with a BIS Developer Avatar has spoken.

Lock this thread, please :p

[rainbird]

steamworks? no!

i'm worried about this trend of bounding my personal game collection to these new online game distribution services - which could disappear at any moment.

i used to be able to sell my old games (just like i sell any other no longer wanted item i own) but now more and more games are tied to Steam. and because steam want to boost their own greedy profits, they have deliberately created a system where you are unable to sell your old steam games.

to me, this is unacceptable, to be held hostage by Steam. they basically OWN any game that uses the Steam sytem.

SAY NO TO ANYTHING STEAM RELATED.

[Minoza]

No thank you!

[rainbird]

Celery: You are the man. I didn't notice your post http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=1933433&postcount=6 before I posted my last post XD

just about sums up why I detest Steam. And it's GREAT to see a developer looking out for the rights of legal legitimate gamers who have actually purchased their games.

Steam's main line is that they protect the games industry from piracy. It's complete bull because the last Steam game I purchased by accident (Nepoleon Total War) brand new from Amazon I was unable to register. Why? because someone had generated my key and had already been using it online in their own pirate Steam account. It took 4 days of annoying "communication" emails with Steam to get them to release my key from the pirate's account.

When I was FINALLY able to play my legally purchased £30 game, I soon realized that it was very dull and all I wanted to do was sell it. But of course, Steam does not allow you to sell your own legal property.

I can't really believe that gamers tolerate Steam-dictatorship. They punish honest legal gamers and offer nothing apart from silly little avatars and "achivements". lol

[James2464]

I will be buying Arma 3 from steam, but I don't want this "steamworks" thing, statistics are beneath the Arma series.

[rainbird]

sinnister: can i ask you why you continue to support a system which infringes on the rights gamers and is basically nothing but a parasite feeding off of game titles without adding any real value to these titles?

is it just selfish lazy convenience that downloading a game from Steam offers?

i really have a difficult time understanding why gamers continue to support this distribution model.

[maionaze]

sinnister: can i ask you why you continue to support a system which infringes on the rights gamers and is basically nothing but a parasite feeding off of game titles without adding any real value to these titles?

is it just selfish lazy convenience that downloading a game from Steam offers?

i really have a difficult time understanding why gamers continue to support this distribution model.

Because it's convenient for some... You have all your purchased games in one place and you can download them on another computer if you happen to be away from home (let's say in another country). It also adds that "social" aspect due to the integration of chat,groups,etc...


P.S. Did you know BIS is still in business because of digital distribution? Marek Spanel said it himslef :)

[rainbird]

maionaze: yes, i guess it is just convenience. we tend to tolerate a lot of things in the name of convenience.

don't get me wrong, i have nothing against digital distribution. i love the idea of buying games and downloading them directly from the developer's server, or some dedicated digital distribution server. the devs get more monies, i get my game faster and everyone's happy :) they give me my license key and i can sell it on when i'm bored of the game.

but Steam's t&c are just unacceptable to me and i have a feeling they will get worse the more they become the standard way to distribute games.

but that's probably me just being an old fart scared of change and progress in the game industry ;)

[maturin]

BIS is never going to break out of the current MP situation (largely worthless public servers vs. elite private groups) without borrowing someone else's MP infrastructure. They need the expertise from somewhere.

[Dwarden]

BIS is never going to break out of the current MP situation (largely worthless public servers vs. elite private groups) without borrowing someone else's MP infrastructure. They need the expertise from somewhere.

that's why we use Gamespy ...

and middleware is not going to solve Your MP situation w/o the game in first place

or got some 'worthy' suggestion? (aka explain what You mean by borrowing ? :) )

[maionaze]

BIS is never going to break out of the current MP situation (largely worthless public servers vs. elite private groups) without borrowing someone else's MP infrastructure. They need the expertise from somewhere.

There is now way to "fix" the MP situation. ArmA is a sandbox, diversity is it's main strenght and at the same time it's enemy.Huge sales=large amount of players=mainstream=standardization.

Look at Apple and Android :)

[Pulverizer]

i used to be able to sell my old games (just like i sell any other no longer wanted item i own) but now more and more games are tied to Steam. and because steam want to boost their own greedy profits, they have deliberately created a system where you are unable to sell your old steam games.

to me, this is unacceptable, to be held hostage by Steam. they basically OWN any game that uses the Steam sytem.

SAY NO TO ANYTHING STEAM RELATED.

In many cases you don't really own immaterial property such as a game anyway, even when you buy it on physical media. You merely buy the licence to use it like any other software. If the licence doesn't allow you to resell it, then that's the way it is.

For example many games only allow you to activate a licence key once for a multiplayer account. If you resell such game without the info, the buyer can't get into mp.

[Nicholas]

P.S. Did you know BIS is still in business because of digital distribution? Marek Spanel said it himslef :)

Yup, Maruk has never said anything bad about Steam that I know of.


Steam is becoming very significant part of today's PC Gaming as well as it was crucial part of the success of Arma 2 / Operation Arrowhead.


I think it is possible that Arma community is simply too impatient for Steam.


Crucial - Decisive or critical, especially in the success or failure of something.

[rainbird]

In many cases you don't really own immaterial property such as a game anyway, even when you buy it on physical media. You merely buy the licence to use it like any other software. If the licence doesn't allow you to resell it, then that's the way it is.

For example many games only allow you to activate a licence key once for a multiplayer account. If you resell such game without the info, the buyer can't get into mp.

What?

err, yes, a game is licensed for a single instance. whether it is a multi-player online instance or a local installed instance - you have always only ever been able to own/use and install a single instance. any online multi-player service will check for duplicate instances of a game-key and prevent multiple instances across accounts. that is perfectly acceptable and is not the point I was making.

Steam are not simply preventing multiple instances of a game across accounts - they are artificially preventing their customers from selling their own property. they are doing this despite the fact that they have the means to enable game keys to be transferred between accounts. This is not about preventing piracy, this is about choking the used game market to increase new purchases.

like many gamers today, you have been fooled by recent debates as to whether "software can be owned by the people who pay for it". Well, yes it can. I do not own the right to make duplicates, but I own a single license which I am LEGALLY entitled to sell on. Of course, recent changes to Terms and conditions mean that this can be prevented. But shouldn't gamers say: "wait a minute, not long ago I was able to sell my used games and recoup some of my own money. NOW, suddenly because the industry has the technology to prevent that (ie: tied to online servers) they are suddenly preventing me from selling my own property!" :rolleyes:

but no, of course gamers will not say that. Like you, they will just repeat Steam's recent T&C and say "oh well, you're just not allowed to sell your own game".

I'm not sure when exactly humans entirely lost their spines and became invertebrate. show some indignation when companies are clearly pulling a scam on you! :butbut:

[Pulverizer]

I didn't mean that you would keep playing after selling a game, but for some services you use gamespy accounts etc, so you can't resell the single game unless you created invidual accounts for each.

You could create invidual Steam accounts too for each game. That's pretty much the equivalent of selling any non-steam multiplayer game that is already tied to an account.

Personally I think selling used games is wrong. It means that 100 people could play a single copy, while the developer only gets paid once for creating the intellectual property. It's like legal piracy.

[Dragon01]

ArmA doesn't need Steam integration. It'd be nice to be able to buy it through Steam, but it shouldn't require it. I prefer having a boxed version of such complex game, especially because of the paperback manual which could be read without alt-tabbing out of the game and running programs in the background (considering system requirements of AIII, my computed wouldn't be able to run it with anything running in the background).

[Celery]

Personally I think selling used movies is wrong. It means that 100 people could watch a single copy, while the makers only get paid once for creating the intellectual property. It's like, legal piracy.
Edited for increased perspective.

[Pulverizer]

Yes, you can replace games/movies with "immaterial property".

[Celery]

Yes, you can replace games/movies with "immaterial property".

So where have you drawn your moral line when it comes to selling off things one has bought? Is getting rid of your tabletop games by way of selling or giving away immoral? What about music CDs? What about books? Why/why not?

[KrAziKilla]

No No No and NO!
Not for no reason my "forced" steam name is: ideclaretotalewaronsteeaaam !!

Its just.. BAD, to say it in mature words. I cannot even find the words how i hate this system.

[Madus_Maximus]

No No No and NO!
Not for no reason my "forced" steam name is: ideclaretotalewaronsteeaaam !!

Its just.. BAD, to say it in mature words. I cannot even find the words how i hate this system.

I hope you don't ever have to use Origin then lol.

[rainbird]

I just find it amazing how easy it has been for game companies to sell this bogus idea to many that selling used games is wrong.


Personally I think selling used games is wrong. It means that 100 people could play a single copy, while the developer only gets paid once for creating the intellectual property. It's like legal piracy.

come on, you don't really think that. you were told that by Cory Ledesma / THQ, a person who can only be described as a crook himself:


"That's a little blunt but we hope it doesn't disappoint people. We hope people understand that when the game's bought used we get cheated"

http://kotaku.com/5620280/thq-buying-used-games-is-cheating

He's a genuine trailblazer and you should hear some of the other new trends he would like to see for the games industry. ie: making it "the norm" that customers RENT their games with continuous monthly subscriptions ON TOP of the one-off $40-$60 retail price.

but I'm sure you'll be happy with that also. unbelievable. If in the 90s gamers were told they were "not allowed to sell their Nintendo SNES cartridges" - they would not be in business today.

But today's generation of gamers find it perfectly acceptable. lol

[Pulverizer]

No No No and NO!
Not for no reason my "forced" steam name is: ideclaretotalewaronsteeaaam !!

Its just.. BAD, to say it in mature words. I cannot even find the words how i hate this system.

Actually you can chance your player name that's visible to others in Steam. What you can't change is the login/username.


So where have you drawn your moral line when it comes to selling off things one has bought? Is getting rid of your tabletop games by way of selling or giving away immoral? What about music CDs? What about books? Why/why not?

It's a very complicated matter, not black and white. But I wouldn't sell an used tabletop game, music CD or book. I would totally download a car though.

[Celery]

It's a very complicated matter, not black and white. But I wouldn't sell an used tabletop game, music CD or book. I would totally download a car though.
I didn't ask what you in particular would sell, I asked if it was immoral to give away or sell them (and why) because I want to know the precise logic in your statement that redistributing a certain kind of consumer product is wrong.

[rainbird]

Celery: Amazon resell games. By Pulverizer's logic, they are pirates.

or no, perhaps he thinks it's ok only for companies to resell the goods they own...but not lowly individuals - that's just wrong and immoral.

[Pulverizer]

Humans aren't perfectly logical beings so you are asking for the impossible, and frankly I haven't given enough thought to it to write an essay on the subject from every possible perspective. But in a nutshell "immaterial property" sums up my views what shouldn't be resellable for the reason in the original quote you edited.

[Celery]

Humans aren't perfectly logical beings so you are asking for the impossible, and frankly I haven't given enough thought to it to write an essay on the subject from every possible perspective. But in a nutshell "immaterial property" sums up my views what shouldn't be resellable for the reason in the original quote you edited.

Are you able to argue for your stance at all? Stating that immaterial property shouldn't be sold off by consumers because it's immaterial property is not an argument at all, you're just declaring it as a basic premise for no good reason.

[rainbird]

Pulverizer: let me make it clearer for you. The use of an individual license key can be monitored. When you purchase a game you are purchasing the right to use that game at any time. Now, because the use of that key can be monitored, its transferral of ownership is very simple and, in fact, Steam HAS the ability to easily transfer keys between accounts (they openly admit this)

So the material/immaterial argument is invalid. A key's usage manifests itself "materially" on Steam's system.

i hate using the word, but it's appropriate in this case: the whole thing is a SCAM by Steam.

[Pulverizer]

Are you able to argue for your stance at all? Stating that immaterial property shouldn't be sold off by consumers because it's immaterial property is not an argument at all, you're just declaring it as a basic premise for no good reason.

That wasn't my "argument".

I just feel that it's the developer/artist's right to be compensated n times when n people enjoy the work, much like a ticket to a show, instead of getting paid once per x people circulating a single copy of the work.

---------- Post added at 01:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:48 AM ----------


i hate using the word, but it's appropriate in this case: the whole thing is a SCAM by Steam.

How is it a scam when people willingly agree to it, perfectly understanding the conditions? It's not like they try to hide it.

[jibemorel]

I never bought a game on Steam nor I will.

[rainbird]

How is it a scam when people willingly agree to it, perfectly understanding the conditions? It's not like they try to hide it.

Pulverizer: because you, and many gamers, clearly do not understand (or just don't care about) the concept of "ownership". Steam know this. If gamers (in general) were a little more concerned about their rights, they would not get away with it. People would boycott them and they'd be out of business and another company with decent lawful T&C's would replace them. So in a real sense, it IS a scam.

But, this will end-up a circular debate. So, I will bow out of this discussion.

Enjoy buying games for Steam to own.

[Spec_Ops_Sniper]

Steam is great, i bought CO on steam after my discs were destroyed by time and so far so good, my mods are not broken and performance is not hindered. Six updater works fine with it. I think steamworks would be good ONLY for the steam version but not for the physical retail version.

Edit:


Pulverizer: because you, and many gamers, clearly do not understand (or just don't care about) the concept of "ownership". Steam know this. If gamers (in general) were a little more concerned about their rights, they would not get away with it. People would boycott them and they'd be out of business and another company with decent lawful T&C's would replace them. So in a real sense, it IS a scam.

But, this will end-up a circular debate. So, I will bow out of this discussion.

Enjoy buying games for Steam to own.

There is nothing illegal about steam and it is not a scam. by buying a game on steam you own the license to the digital copy and you own that license for ever. You have agreed to this method by making a purchase. I do not feel scammed, i know i do not physically own a game I simply own the digital license.

[Celery]

That wasn't my "argument".

I just feel that it's the developer/artist's right to be compensated n times when n people enjoy the work, much like a ticket to a show, instead of getting paid once per x people circulating a single copy of the work.
If you truly had the notion that replayable media was like an admission to a show, you'd want to pay the makers in full each time you watch a movie you have on disc, or start a game that you've completed before. You know that it doesn't work that way. Through the ages, no party has had a problem with reselling and giving away used entertainment media until the distribution methods have allowed companies to restrict it.

So, do you think that it's immoral to give away books, movies, tabletop games and music CDs that have been paid for once? Why?

---------- Post added at 01:34 ---------- Previous post was at 01:31 ----------


There is nothing illegal about steam and it is not a scam. by buying a game on steam you own the license to the digital copy and you own that license for ever. You have agreed to this method by making a purchase. I do not feel scammed, i know i do not physically own a game I simply own the digital license.
The problem that is discussed in this topic is that forcing Steam integration will leave people only with a binary choice of either buying or not buying the game instead of buying it where the terms and conditions match the consumer's idea of fairness.

[NeMeSiS]

That wasn't my "argument".

I just feel that it's the developer/artist's right to be compensated n times when n people enjoy the work, much like a ticket to a show, instead of getting paid once per x people circulating a single copy of the work

Why dont you extend this line of thought to, for example, cars? Why dont you feel a car manufacter has the right to be compensated n times why people (re)buy their car?

I dont really care too much about this issue since i never sell/buy 2nd hand games, but i dont really see your reasoning behind this.

[jblackrupert]

Sell on Steam: Yes - So long as Sprocket and DVD is still an option.
Even if Bohemia ditched DVD copies I could still live with Sprocket.

Achivements/Unlocks/Leaderboards: HELL NO!!! Those are the NUMBER ONE driving force behind cheaters, stat padders and their stat padding servers.

Just look at Battlefield 2, especially Special Forces, the majority of the servers are stat pad/Time servers. 8 out of 10 last time I looked.

Keeping score and Achivements will be the death of Arma, that and releasing a free version right away and no easy way for admins to deal with the griefers.

Virtually all of the public vanilla Arma 2 servers are now unplayable most of the time
because of a minority of free players causing shit and no good way for admins to keep
them out without requiring addons.


Age of the players isn't an issue for me, the motivation for playing the game is.

One of the best chopper pilots I've played with in Arma is around 13/14

The best Commander I've played with in Battlefield 2142 is 14

Neither of them give a shit about their scores, thats the difference.

[rainbird]

There is nothing illegal about steam and it is not a scam.

You're right, there's nothing illegal about it. After all, you are the one clicking the "I accept being scammed" button.


I do not feel scammed, i know i do not physically own a game I simply own the digital license.

No, you do not own Steam licenses. There is no such thing as ownership without the "right" to sell. You do not own games tied to Steam. You can consider it a form of long-term rental, with content delivered to you via their servers and under their conditions.

Now if you had really been paying attention, you would know where this new model which Steam currently dominates is heading. I have. Your acceptance that you do not own a game is the first step in a long term business plan in which many game companies and middle men (like Steam) hope to make a HECK of a lot more money from gamers than they ever could have dreamed of during the days of "game ownership". As Cory Ledesma / THQ says, he and many other big name game cos, are creeping towards game rental. No more ownership - period. I can dig up quotes from Cory himself stating that he wants to see games sold for $60 IN ADDITION to monthly online subscriptions - not for new content - just for the priveledge to play the game.

Articles on Gamesutra discussing the new distribution model are not discussing how it's going to solve piracy (the piracy debate is pretty much irrelevant with online gaming anyway), they're discussing how much potential there is to absolutely drain the pockets of gamers. Of course, they discuss this in a very polite way but the intention is clear.

So when you are clicking that "I accept not owning a game I have paid for button" - just consider the longterm consequences of your actions. But of course you will not.


I do not feel scammed, i know i do not physically own a game I simply own the digital license.

Since gaming first began and up until very recently (when Steam appeared), you used to own both the physical media AND the license. Now you own nothing, only a privilege granted by Steam.

Yet (disregarding their sales on old titles which nobody really wants) you are still paying the same, and in some cases more, for their games - with no box, no ownership and no right to sell. If that doesn't make you feel just a little bit scammed...well...

[Madus_Maximus]

@<hidden> You don't own any software, or music, or movies, or pretty much anything in a similar vein. You're granted a license that allows you to use it in certain ways, and one way that is common with a physical copy is the right to sell it, but you must also not have any copies of it if you do so, so if you get a CD, rip it, then sell it to someone, that license stipulates you must also delete all of the copies you've made on your computer or MP3 player or whatever.

Also, you haven't really been able to sell PC games for the best part of a decade due to the simple nature of being able to make a copy then just give it back. That isn't as simple on consoles as they're often updated to counter any developments in pirated copies and they can tie the disc ID to that user account/console if they wanted.

Also on the prices. That isn't up to Steam/Valve, that's the developers/publishers who make that decision. So, complain to the developers/publishers that you're paying more for less.

[rainbird]

@<hidden> You don't own any software, or music, or movies, or pretty much anything in a similar vein. You're granted a license that allows you to use it in certain ways, and one way that is common with a physical copy is the right to sell it, but you must also not have any copies of it if you do so, so if you get a CD, rip it, then sell it to someone, that license stipulates you must also delete all of the copies you've made on your computer or MP3 player or whatever.

Yep, I understand that. But I think you are confusing the ideas of "ownership" and "copyright". I don't own the copyright to any of my books, CDs, games, etc. But I know for certain that I own them. I know that for the simple fact that I can sell my particular instances (original copies) any time I choose.


@<hidden>
Also, you haven't really been able to sell PC games for the best part of a decade due to the simple nature of being able to make a copy then just give it back. That isn't as simple on consoles as they're often updated to counter any developments in pirated copies and they can tie the disc ID to that user account/console if they wanted.

I don't understand this point. I have been able to sell all of my games: Megadrive, SNES, PS2, PS3, PC. No problems selling them at all. The only game I've ever been unable to sell is Napoleon Total War, which is a Steam game.


@<hidden>
Also on the prices. That isn't up to Steam/Valve, that's the developers/publishers who make that decision. So, complain to the developers/publishers that you're paying more for less.


Yep, that's true. Still remains a fact that Steam is no cheaper than buying and owning a game.

[Pulverizer]

If you truly had the notion that replayable media was like an admission to a show, you'd want to pay the makers in full each time you watch a movie you have on disc, or start a game that you've completed before. You know that it doesn't work that way. Through the ages, no party has had a problem with reselling and giving away used entertainment media until the distribution methods have allowed companies to restrict it.

So, do you think that it's immoral to give away books, movies, tabletop games and music CDs that have been paid for once? Why?

Yeah that was a bad analogy.

Look, it's a very hairy subject and asking me to untangle it with a single solid answer that works in every case is like asking to invent theory of relativity on the spot. It isn't going to happen.

Why I feel x or y is morally right or wrong is just the way I'm wired. I cannot back it up with generalized logical principles because that simply isn't how the brain, or the sense of morality works.

Giving away or lending is also a gray area. I guess with friends who couldn't afford it themselves is okay as long as you don't abuse the right. Or donating something to charity etc. Again, I go case by case based on what I feel, as I don't have it down to one theory that works for everything.

---------- Post added at 10:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:01 AM ----------


Why dont you extend this line of thought to, for example, cars? Why dont you feel a car manufacter has the right to be compensated n times why people (re)buy their car?

I dont really care too much about this issue since i never sell/buy 2nd hand games, but i dont really see your reasoning behind this.

You are comparing physical property where a single unit can cost 10,000+ currency units new, and that is a practical device instead of only a piece of art or entertainment, to something that can be duplicated with very low costs and sold cheap at 1-50 euro bucks a pop and doesn't really function as a tool or something practical. There is no comparison to cars.

[Clarkey1]

HELL NO!!, NO STEAM!!, leave it optional.
For online purchases sprocket works perfectly, same as a DvD purchase.

This is good to hear. I'm getting ArmA 3 from sprocket because ArmA2 and OA are a nightmare to update on steam. And even when I update manually steam doesn't recognize it so I still have to re-download the the game.

Steam is great if you just want to play vanilla games. But I find one of the most enjoyable things about PC gaming is the modability. I can't agree that steamworks adds any incentive to playing with groups and inviting new members. The ArmA community does a good job of this on it's own. Any gaming community does this fine on it's own. Steamworks is just another way of doing the same thing people have done for years. I think you'll find most OFP/ArmA fans would prefer to have the option. In a way choice and freedom is a trademark of the series.

[[EVO] Dan]

This reminds me of the debate they had over on the BGforums about SRCW, you know what they ended up doing?

They ended up releasing the game on disk, download from gamersgate and paradox, as well as selling it on steam. Its the best of both worlds, just as long as your not forced to use steam like some games like the total wars.

[NeMeSiS]

You are comparing physical property where a single unit can cost 10,000+ currency units new, and that is a practical device instead of only a piece of art or entertainment, to something that can be duplicated with very low costs and sold cheap at 1-50 euro bucks a pop and doesn't really function as a tool or something practical. There is no comparison to cars.

I considered that, but we arent talking about copying. If i would sell my ArmA2 i wouldnt keep a copy, in the same way that i wouldnt keep a copy of my car/hammer/left arm/cheese if i decided to sell it.
Of course i could, but if i decided to pirate stuff i wouldnt buy it in the first place.

[Celery]

Look, it's a very hairy subject and asking me to untangle it with a single solid answer that works in every case is like asking to invent theory of relativity on the spot. It isn't going to happen.

Why I feel x or y is morally right or wrong is just the way I'm wired. I cannot back it up with generalized logical principles because that simply isn't how the brain, or the sense of morality works.

Giving away or lending is also a gray area. I guess with friends who couldn't afford it themselves is okay as long as you don't abuse the right. Or donating something to charity etc. Again, I go case by case based on what I feel, as I don't have it down to one theory that works for everything.
In that case you are not very qualified to lobby your Steamworks utopia here, nor to imply that a consumer that sells his things is a pirate. You have no sound arguments for your notion that a person has to be stuck with whatever media he buys. I hope that you won't resurrect this tedious thread again since all you have contributed here is unreasoned statements and slander.

[KrAziKilla]

In that case you are not very qualified to lobby your Steamworks utopia here, nor to imply that a consumer that sells his things is a pirate. You have no sound arguments for your notion that a person has to be stuck with whatever media he buys. I hope that you won't resurrect this tedious thread again since all you have contributed here is unreasoned statements and slander.

I could not agree more with Celery :)

Anyway:
- Say NO to steam!
- Give NO-steam a chance
- NO might to steam
- Say NO to forced updates
- Say NO to forced internet connection
- Say NO to dependency of 3rd party servers

[Pulverizer]

Fine by me, Celery. I didn't suggest that Arma should use Steamworks though. I wouldn't mind it because I like Steam, but I realize many people would.

[Nicholas]

Say NO to forced updates


Sigh....I hate when people say that Steam "forces" updates. They do not force updates; you can turn off automatic updates for any game you wish.

[rainbird]

http://images.bit-tech.net/news_images/2009/11/valve-doesn-t-care-about-steamworks-boycott/article_img.jpg

always wondered about that image. and after some of the steam-fan-boy posts in this thread...i think i get it.

every Steam customer must get a free lobotomy as "thanks" for their stupidity.

[Nicholas]

[imghttp://images.bit-tech.net/news_images/2009/11/valve-doesn-t-care-about-steamworks-boycott/article_img.jpg[/img]

always wondered about that image. and after some of the steam-fan-boy posts in this thread...i think i get it.

every Steam customer must get a free lobotomy as "thanks" for their stupidity.

So, you're calling Steam customers stupid?


Steam is becoming very significant part of today's PC Gaming as well as it was crucial part of the success of Arma 2 / Operation Arrowhead.

Steam sales were very important in the success of ArmA 2 and Operation Arrowhead.

[rainbird]

YES, I am calling you stupid. And is that quote supposed to make me melt and suddenly see Steam as the saviour of the PC gaming industry?

I am VERY glad that BIS gained a lot of sales from Steam. But Steam didn't invent digital distribution. The only thing they've invented is the idea that their customers do not own the games they purchase.

[Celery]

rainbird, you have received 2 infraction points for insulting other members. Please try to converse in a civil manner and don't post anything if you only intend to hate on somebody.

[jblackrupert]

Steam doesn't force automatic updates, they're just ON by default after you install a game.

Right click on the game and you can disable automatic updates for each game.

You can also back up the patched game by doing the same thing.. right click.
It'll back up the files and create an installer that you can burn on DVD if you like.

My only issues with Steam are

- Client sucks resources on some systems regardless of power of the CPU and available RAM.
- Logging in can take forever somethimes
- Games can fail to launch requiring several reboots or reinstalling to get them to go.

I have 2 games on Steam. Red Orchestra and Race On
Race On refuses to launch 25% of the time and is sluggish on every system I've tried it on.

Steam just makes every system I've installed it on feel sluggish. Single/Duel/Quad-core's
It's been this way since day 1, some people for whatever reason never have any issues with it.

Some programs just don't get along well with certain Hardware/Software/OS installations.

[rainbird]

Celery:

I'm not "hating" on anyone. He directly asked me if I thought he was stupid for buying Steam games. What was I supposed to do, lie and say he was clever?

and do what you wish with my account. they're cheap and disposable as you know.

[Nicholas]

Celery:

I'm not "hating" on anyone. He directly asked me if I thought he was stupid for buying Steam games. What was I supposed to do, lie and say he was clever?

and do what you wish with my account. they're cheap and disposable as you know.

Who said I was a Steam customer? I only said that you can disable automatic updates with Steam and asked "So, you're calling Steam customers stupid? (http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=2099097&postcount=114)" I didn't ask what you thought of me.

Yet, you insulted me by calling me stupid. As you can see here:


YES, I am calling you stupid.

Oh, by the way, I am a Steam customer. I have no issues with them. I'll spend my money as I see fit. You live life once so enjoy everything you can. There is no need to insult someone just because they do something that you oppose. Steam does have some great deals you know, I get all giddy when I see "Sale" on their front page!

[Dragon01]

All that angry discussion, and you forget two things:
1). Steam doesn't force you to play online, offline mode works fine (I don't know why people seem to have a problem with it).
2). If you're smart, you get most of your games on Steam at 25% their normal price, and even that is lower than what you pay in store.

Steam does have it's drawbacks, but the amount of money saved using it is large enough that they shouldn't matter. Buying things on Steam at their full price is, of course, a waste of money, but you just need a little patience and you can pay a silly amount for what is otherwise quite expensive.

[Serub]

I was lurking for a while and registered just to post in this thread.

As a huge OF and ARMA fan I will NOT buy ARMA3 if it will force me to use 3rd party software or some other intrusive type of DRM to play it.

I have nothing against implementing it being optional for all the people who use Steam, but for me it's a huge no.

I am tired of all the bad sequels for my favorite games and all the exclusivity announcements about Steamworks that they carry. PC gaming is not something like Xbox Live, don't monopolize PC market into hands of one company.

[Nicholas]

Steam does have it's drawbacks, but the amount of money saved using it is large enough that they shouldn't matter. Buying things on Steam at their full price is, of course, a waste of money, but you just need a little patience and you can pay a silly amount for what is otherwise quite expensive.

Correct. I have 120+ games on Steam. I believe most if not all of them were bought on sales (Except ArmA II OA and DLC). Most games that I got on Steam, I already have the disc, I just rebuy it again on Steam for the convenience.

[rainbird]

Who said I was a Steam customer? I only said that you can disable automatic updates with Steam and asked "So, you're calling Steam customers stupid? (http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=2099097&postcount=114)" I didn't ask what you thought of me.

Yet, you insulted me by calling me stupid. As you can see here:



Oh, by the way, I am a Steam customer. I have no issues with them. I'll spend my money as I see fit. You live life once so enjoy everything you can. There is no need to insult someone just because they do something that you oppose. Steam does have some great deals you know, I get all giddy when I see "Sale" on their front page!

I automatically assumed you were on the defensive because you were a Steam customer yourself and you are. I do not really have anything against Steam, only the part where they say I cannot sell my own games.

And on a related note: people in this world (particularly on the net) have a wide variation of communication styles. And there's no such thing as a "personal insult" unless the person actually knows personal information about you. All I know of you is that your forum name is Nicholas, you have an avatar with a red circle and three red balls and that you're, unfortunately, a Steam customer. Someone calling you "stupid" based on that information is just meaningless hot-air.

Try to be a little less sensitive on the internet.

[Dragon01]

On the other hand, basic politeness still applies. Calling somebody stupid like that is rude, regardless if on the Internet or not. Especially like that, as this was about as "to his face" as you could get on the Internet. And rudeness frequently leads to off-topic posts and meaningless discussion.
You could call some behavior stupid if you absolutely must, this should be more acceptable as long as not directed at anyone specifically, but at the behavior itself.
Let's be polite from here on.

[jblackrupert]

1). Steam doesn't force you to play online, offline mode works fine (I don't know why people seem to have a problem with it).

Most Steam games REQUIRE the client to be running and ONLINE if you want to play MP.

Race On which I own gives me 2 install choices

1) Single player install, no steam required
2) Multiplayer install. Steam needs to be running and online [Logged in].

If i pick number 2 and choose to play a single player round against the AI I still have to have Steam running and logged in.

Even Simbins FREE RaceRoom games require Steam to be running and logged in.

[Dwarden]

i have little suggestion for these who with enabled steam have slow computer ... disable your friends list (just close the window) ...

for some reason the enabled friends window is capable tank most of one core on even quad system

[Captain Carnage]

Sigh....I hate when people say that Steam "forces" updates. They do not force updates; you can turn off automatic updates for any game you wish.

In my experience, games have magically enabled automatic updates even after I had disabled them.

[Guess Who]

Correct. I have 120+ games on Steam. I believe most if not all of them were bought on sales (Except ArmA II OA and DLC). Most games that I got on Steam, I already have the disc, I just rebuy it again on Steam for the convenience.

Well, I prefer quality over quantity ... :eek:
And I can afford to pay full prize for a full game with a nice full box of ArmA goodness. So NO to intrusive DRM measures. Period.

[Nicholas]

Well, I prefer quality over quantity ... :eek:
And I can afford to pay full prize for a full game with a nice full box of ArmA goodness.

I can afford to pay full price as well. I just have more important things to spend that saved cash on. Like I said, most of the games I have on Steam I already have on disc and I just rebuy it for the convenience.

[jblackrupert]

i have little suggestion for these who with enabled steam have slow computer ... disable your friends list (just close the window) ...

for some reason the enabled friends window is capable tank most of one core on even quad system

Steam is just bloatware. People have been struggling to get it to play nice on their systems since 2003 when it was still new.

Some people for whatever reason don't have the sluggishness problem
it's kinda like Arma, some systems no matter how tricked out they are just can't seem to get the same performance that others with weaker systems get.


If it wasn't for the availability of games and sales Steam would have been dumped long ago.

[Nicholas]

It seems as though a majority of the users do not want Steam integration whatsoever.

Why is this thread still open?

[MadDogX]

If it wasn't for the availability of games and sales Steam would have been dumped long ago.
Read: if it wasn't for the awesome quality of service, it would have failed. I agree. :D

[jblackrupert]

Read: if it wasn't for the awesome quality of service, it would have failed. I agree. :D

Quality/Service.....Nope. The occasional sales just blind people to the fact that they're getting less and less and pretty much own none of it.

But then again, I'm one of those old farts who remembers a time when
games came with 100 page manuals, games based on books came with a copy of the actual book, cloth maps, figurines... etc.

What we had back then is now called "Limited editions" and cost $150

[kororas]

I do like Steam, but I don't think Arma really suits Steam. BIS does a good job without requiring the use of Steam's services (such as Steamworks) and i personally would prefer if Arma was kept standalone only so BIS could concentrate on one sole platform - their own.

[DMarkwick]

Quality/Service.....Nope. The occasional sales just blind people to the fact that they're getting less and less and pretty much own none of it.

But then again, I'm one of those old farts who remembers a time when
games came with 100 page manuals, games based on books came with a copy of the actual book, cloth maps, figurines... etc.

What we had back then is now called "Limited editions" and cost $150

Well I too lament the lack of decent & consice manuals, I'm thinking of the likes of Falcon 4, Flight Simulator, Longbow 2 etc. But, it seems to me there are very few releases that actually require such an inclusion. For these titles, Steam is suited :)

And, you have never owned the software you apparently purchased: you have only ever owned a license to run the software.

I'm not big on Steam myself, I still prefer the hard copy product. But, I like the idea of simply installing Steam on any machine I own in the future, and having access to any software title I ever ran through Steam :) But, I reckon I also got that through Sprocket too, but without the intrusion that Steam represents.

[Celery]

And, you have never owned the software you apparently purchased: you have only ever owned a license to run the software.
That is a moot point. The media and the license with it had always been transferable by handing it over before distributors got the idea that they'll prevent it instead.

[rainbird]

And, you have never owned the software you apparently purchased: you have only ever owned a license to run the software.

last year I sold my copy of an OS called MorphOS and a music program called Reason. I didn't want people using customer support accounts I'd registered in my name. So on both occasions I transferred ownership of the software. Both developers were happy to transfer the ownership over to the new owners and Reason's support site automates transferal...you don't have to "ask for permission" - they just naturally assume it to be your right to sell your own license. I've never tried, but I believe Microsoft will do the same if you ever wanted to sell your copy of Windows (?).

If I didn't already know I would be asking why, suddenly, we're are not allowed to sell games we own. can't for the life of me understand why Steam customers do not question this critical point.

i and no, I'm not "hating" on Steam. i just cannot fathom this one single fundamental point.

[Jakerod]

I vote for keeping it the way it is now. If you want it on Steam, get it on Steam. If you want retail or Sprocket use one of those. If you use Steam and have a problem with the way it patches, take it up with Valve. Everybody wins!

[DMarkwick]

That is a moot point. The media and the license with it had always been transferable by handing it over before distributors got the idea that they'll prevent it instead.


last year I sold my copy of an OS called MorphOS and a music program called Reason. I didn't want people using customer support accounts I'd registered in my name. So on both occasions I transferred ownership of the software. Both developers were happy to transfer the ownership over to the new owners and Reason's support site automates transferal...you don't have to "ask for permission" - they just naturally assume it to be your right to sell your own license. I've never tried, but I believe Microsoft will do the same if you ever wanted to sell your copy of Windows (?).

If I didn't already know I would be asking why, suddenly, we're are not allowed to sell games we own. can't for the life of me understand why Steam customers do not question this critical point.

i and no, I'm not "hating" on Steam. i just cannot fathom this one single fundamental point.

Oh yeah, for sure :) I myself have a Lightwave license that was transferred to me, although I guess in that case the license was associated with the dongle. I always thought the perfect "document" for licensing should be the CD/DVD itself, each one having a unique code right in the media, but I guess that would be too much cost, hence 32 character codes printed onto manuals :)

As for companies deciding that such transfers are to be disallowed, at a legal level I guess that's the company's licensing decision. On a practical level some game distributors are starting to limit content to original owners only, example being the Batman Arkham City release that has a single-use code to activate "bonus" ingame content. You buy that game second hand, you don't get that bonus content. I guess it's a toe-in-the-water test for future restrictions.

[CarlGustaffa]

Car manufacturers should take the same approach. If you're a second hand buyer, the fuel lid doesn't come off anymore.

Btw, polls doesn't look very nice (white text on white background) on the dark gui.

[Nicholas]

Take a look at the EULA guys.


All title, ownership rights and intellectual property rights in and to the
Program and any and all copies thereof (including but not limited to any titles,
computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, narrative,
locations, artwork, animations, sounds, musical compositions, audiovisual effects,
methods of operation, any related documentation, and addons incorporated into the
Program) are owned by Bohemia Interactive a.s. (the Licensor) or its licensors.The
Program is protected by the Czech copyright laws, international copyright treaties
and conventions and any other applicable laws. All rights are reserved.



the Licensor hereby grants, and by installing the Program
you thereby accept, a restricted, non-exclusive license and right to install and use one
(1) copy of the Program for your personal use. You may not network the Program or
otherwise install it or use it on more than one computer at a time, except if expressly
authorized otherwise in the applicable documentation. The Program is licensed, not
sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Program



You may permanently transfer all of your rights under this
License to the recipient, provided that the recipient agrees to the terms of this
License and you remove the Program from your compute



This License is effective until terminated.You may terminate the
License at any time by destroying the Program and any New Material. The Licensor
may, at its discretion, terminate this License in the event that you fail to comply with
the terms and conditions contained herein. In such event, you must immediately
destroy the Program and any New Material

Basically, you do not actually own the game, it is technically just a license to use the game. You automatically agree to the EULA upon installing the game.

[Celery]

Take a look at the EULA guys.

Basically, you do not actually own the game, it is technically just a license to use the game. You automatically agree to the EULA upon installing the game.
You see the EULA only after you have made the purchase. Plus, "you only own the license" means nothing at all because it's obvious in any case that you're not allowed to sell burned copies of it. Stating that phrase brings nothing to the table when the matter at hand is whether a soulbinding policy sucks or not.

[Nicholas]

You see the EULA only after you have made the purchase.

Correct. You purchase the game, then look in the manual and read the EULA before installing. The first part of the EULA reads this:


If you do not agree to the terms of this Agreement, do not
install or use the Program. You may, however, return it to your place of purchase
for a full refund.

The only problem with this is that most stores will not refund your money if you have opened the game. In that case, I'm assuming you would contact BI.

[Choki]

I hate steam so... no

[rainbird]

You may permanently transfer all of your rights under this
License to the recipient, provided that the recipient agrees to the terms of this
License and you remove the Program from your compute


problem with that statement is that you are actually NOT allowed to transfer Steam licenses using Steam. perhaps they should honour the EULA of the games they distribute?

and again, "copyright" and "ownership of a license" are two different concepts which should not be confused.

[metalcraze]

I voted no then and I would vote no today. No to Steam-exclusive and especially no to Steamworks.
With the current awful quality of Steam connectivity with constant disconnects - Steamworks will simply make it impossible to play MP because as soon as you lose connection to Steam (regardless of the internet connection) even for a second - you are getting kicked from an MP game.
This is retarded and I don't want this in ArmA.

[JojoTheSlayer]

I voted no then and I would vote no today. No to Steam-exclusive and especially no to Steamworks.
With the current awful quality of Steam connectivity with constant disconnects - Steamworks will simply make it impossible to play MP because as soon as you lose connection to Steam (regardless of the internet connection) even for a second - you are getting kicked from an MP game.
This is retarded and I don't want this in ArmA.

This isnt true.
I have my comp on 24/7 and I am connected to Steam and its stats rivals my dsl modems online stats.
I have about 800 hours logged in Steam on Arma 2/OA/CO. I wouldnt have that if it was unstable... If Steam goes down you might have issues with Valve games, using the same server network, but not necessarily other MP games. Steam also has a offline mode which makes it possible to access games that use Gamespy to get online like Arma.

[metalcraze]

That's because ArmA2/OA/CO have no Steamworks. Read my post again.

[Bee8190]

I might be a bit ignorant here but i cant see any real benefits of this... and my purchase will be from sprocket anyways

and I dont like steam too

[Rebel44]

I might be a bit ignorant here but i cant see any real benefits of this...

For example Steam Workshop is nice way to manage/install mods.

[metalcraze]

Or you can download Six Updater made specifically with ArmA in mind.

[JojoTheSlayer]

Or you can download Six Updater made specifically with ArmA in mind.

I know more Arma people that use Steam than Six updater and that includes the "six updater" clan I play with regularly.
Stuff like Steam Workshop would greatly improve access to mods for the average Arma user. You are right, thats not me. I have Arma Launcher, Six updater and etc installed already. Also have... about 66gigs of mods. Hardly the average I would presume, but I am not arguing for whats best for me, but the Arma community as I see it beyond the borders of the peeps using this forum.

I would bet most mod creators would like their work to be seen by as many people as possible and Steam makes that access easier for the majority.
Specially when most of the Arma 2/Steam issues talked about here are directly linked to the fact that there is a none Steam version of Arma 2, not the other way around like most Steam haters wants people to believe.

Steam WorkShop tag text for Skyrim:


Now you can easily discover, rate, and download Skyrim mods directly through Steam. The Steam Workshop makes it easy to browse the most popular, newest or highest-rated mods of all time, as well as searching for specific content via tags such as “Armor”, “Quests”, “Dungeons”, and more. You can even see what your friends have added to their favorites. Once you’ve found something awesome, click the “Subscribe” button. The next time you play Skyrim, the launcher will automatically install the latest version of any subscribed mods and configure Skyrim to run them.


With a few alterations and launch options I could see this system work very well for Arma 3. Might even bring in some new players to peoples ultra many mod servers out there.

[Trapper]

I don't want ArmA to be Steam exclusive.

Has anybody who's talking about "owning" over hundred Steam games ever read the EULA?
We pay up to retail prices for just subscriptions.


STEAM® SUBSCRIBER AGREEMENT

[...]

2. LICENSES
A. License Terms.
[...]
Valve hereby grants, and you accept, a limited, terminable, non-exclusive license and right to use the Software for your personal use in accordance with this Agreement and the Subscription Terms. The Software is licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Software.

[...]

12. AMENDMENTS TO THIS AGREEMENT
Valve may amend this Agreement at any time in its sole discretion. As a Subscriber, you agree that Valve may amend the terms of this Agreement. If Valve amends the Agreement, such amendment shall be effective thirty (30) days after your receiving notice of the amended Agreement, either via e-mail or as a notification within the Software. You can view the Agreement at any time at http://www.steampowered.com/. Your failure to cancel your Account thirty (30) days after receiving notification of an amended Agreement will mean that you accept all such amendments. If you don't agree to the amendments or to any of the terms in this Agreement, your only remedy is to cancel your Account or a particular Subscription.

[...]

13. TERM AND TERMINATION
Either you or Valve has the right to terminate or cancel your Account or a particular Subscription at any time. You understand and agree that the cancellation of your Account or a particular Subscription is your sole right and remedy with respect to any dispute with Valve.

[...]

[Rebel44]

I don't want ArmA to be Steam exclusive.

Has anybody who's talking about "owning" over hundred Steam games ever read the EULA?
We pay up to retail prices for just subscriptions.

Its almost exactly same EULA as with any other digital distribution service. Just slightly different words.

taken from http://www.sprocketidea.com


We make no claims, nor apply any assertion that our Site is suitable or configured for access for anyone outside of the Czech Republic. Further you agree that any legal response or action resulting from use or service of the Site shall be pursuant to Czech law and shall be filed or submitted only within the jurisdiction or remit of the Czech courts.

...

The right to access our Site or use our services is strictly held by us and we reserve the right to remove or limit your access to the site or the access to the services of our Site for any or no reason.
.....

This agreement shall supersede any and all previous agreements of any nature between you and us regarding and respecting our Site, or products or services offered by our Site.

Also none of us own any games at all - only thing that is being sold to customer is limited licence with proper EULA.

If you own software, you can for example make your own copes and sell them whereever you wish.

[Celery]

Also none of us own any games at all - only thing that is being sold to customer is limited licence with proper EULA.

If you own software, you can for example make your own copes and sell them whereever you wish.
What is your statement even supposed to mean? I can resell most of my physical copies of games just fine and nobody has the right to forcefully take them away, and I obviously am not allowed to make pirate copies of them in any case. I can't sell my Steam games though. Does your "you don't own your games" change any of that, other than making you a big liar any time you say "I bought this game on Steam" instead of "I bought a limited license to this game on Steam"?

[Dwarden]

Rebel44 i concur ... Good Old Games service for online distribution has no 'limitations' like these ...

so there are exceptions to prove the point

[DMarkwick]

The difference with Steam is that it layers its own EULA over the developer's EULA. So they can remove your access to ALL your games simply by disabling your account - which they can do for any reason they wish and not even inform you of that reason - and you have no comeback, no recourse. You need Steam, and if you don't have it you cannot run your games. Sprocket on the other hand merely provides the software for you to then run as you wish. It doesn't manage it for you.

[jblackrupert]

I'd be fine with Steam if they just ditched the client requirement for running games.

[Pathetic_Berserker]

Steam = completely pointless

[Slides]

Steam is now the only way that I buy games and so do all the people I know who are into gaming. Adding the Creation workshop would make finding and installing mods that much easier.

There is no good reason I can think of from a uer point of view to not fully integrate with Steam.

---------- Post added at 09:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:44 PM ----------


What is your statement even supposed to mean? I can resell most of my physical copies of games just fine and nobody has the right to forcefully take them away, and I obviously am not allowed to make pirate copies of them in any case. I can't sell my Steam games though. Does your "you don't own your games" change any of that, other than making you a big liar any time you say "I bought this game on Steam" instead of "I bought a limited license to this game on Steam"?

Who owns CDs in this day and age? I haven't used my optical drive in years.

[Nicholas]

Who owns CDs in this day and age? I haven't used my optical drive in years.

I gotta admit, I can't remember the last game or album I bought on a disc. The only time I use my DVD-Reader/Writer is to burn music onto CD's or to burn a photo album. Most of my old games on disc are just collecting dust as I have rebought the digital copy.

[Celery]

Who owns CDs in this day and age? I haven't used my optical drive in years.
Where are all the game CDs and DVDs that you used to have? Could it be that you actually sold them or gave them away? Now, wasn't that convenient? :rolleyes:

[Slides]

Where are all the game CDs and DVDs that you used to have? Could it be that you actually sold them or gave them away? Now, wasn't that convenient? :rolleyes:
I still have a lot of them lying around and anytime I have sold them in the recent past, I have just sold the CD key.

[NodUnit]

Just CD's? Pah I keep the boxes and everything on a small shelf as I would movies. I don't really mind any space they 'take up', hell I even have the bigger bulky boxes that came such as armored fist, Janes Naval Warfare, Command & Conquer Theater of War even though I also have the first decade..and even my banged up Operation Flashpoint GOTY box.

They add some extra personality and there is no shame in having a large collection of a hobby, and makes for some conversation when friends or hell even strangers come over. I remember visiting a friends friend, complete stranger to me and seeing his collection of 90's simulations, Janes longbow, Janes Naval command, and so on...after some talking he showed me a few games, and then he showed me Operation Flashpoint, had his collection not been on any display we'd likely not have talked much nor what I have discovered OFP much less Arma.

The only time it becomes a problem is when you get sloppy about it, leaving boxes in places or upturned rather than organized neatly...that and you can't SSSNFFFF the nonexistant fresh booklet..
http://i1.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/002/252/me-gusta.jpg


Steam is now the only way that I buy games and so do all the people I know who are into gaming. Adding the Creation workshop would make finding and installing mods that much easier.

There is no good reason I can think of from a uer point of view to not fully integrate with Steam.

How about the reason that some people simply don't want it to be steam or nothing. You may not purchase physical copies but that doesn't mean everyone follows that example nor should we be pushed to do so.

[DMarkwick]

There is no good reason I can think of from a uer point of view to not fully integrate with Steam.

Apart from if you have your Steam account locked for any reason.

[Neopas]

Especially since Steam doesn`t even have to explain ,to you ,the reason your account was locked,according to their EULA.

[volkov956]

No Don't agree with it on Closed Lan Networks not ideal at all Current Arma 2 runs fine in closed lan networks. Easy to boost your stats in Arma 2 online if u go that route u do have a map editor with unlimieted options.... I wouldnt call steam a enhancement but more of a Bloatware

Now the comment on who uses CD/DVD fir gaming i just turn around in my chair and have a wall of 650 CD/DVD PC games... thats my distribution hell with Digital Downloading games I dont have the bandwidth for that

[Flogger23m]

No. ArmA is a demanding game, I would prefer if Steam did not run in the background. Sell it on Steam but also sell versions that do not require it.

[160thSOAR]

I like to use Steam, but I know plenty of people who don't like it at all.

BIS should let people keep their freedom of choice as to whether they like to use Steam or a physical DVD. I've never used the optical drive on my computer, nor do I plan to anytime soon, but that doesn't mean everyone else feels that way.

And Steam does have its problems. Like how Offline Mode doesn't work unless you've already been online. Counterintuitive much?

[Pathetic_Berserker]

Why am I reading so many posts that imply steam is the only way to aquire a legit digital version of a game? BIS already has this covered so why would steam be considered necessary?

[jonneymendoza]

I like the feature of steamWorks. Will make modding this game ALOT easier as it will all be centralised and there will no longer need no thirdy party apps to maintain our mods. Plus the friends list on steam to allow u to join your mates server is cool too.

Cant understand why most here dont like Steam

[OnlyRazor]

I like the feature of steamWorks. Will make modding this game ALOT easier as it will all be centralised and there will no longer need no thirdy party apps to maintain our mods. Plus the friends list on steam to allow u to join your mates server is cool too.
Cant understand why most here dont like Steam

A. When Steamworks is added, it's obligatory. There's no opt-out option. If you want to play the game, you need to run Steam.
B. When using Steam, you buy a license to a game, not the actual game itself. This means that you can get locked out for no reason, and people can have their accounts banned without any specification as to why.
C. Steam has plenty glitches of its own, such as offline mode not working if you haven't been online first.

There's more, but I don't recall all of it. All in all, people like having choices, and Steamworks doesn't offer any.

[metalcraze]

And as I've mentioned - the utterly retarded Steamworks DRM that treats you no better than Ubisoft.

Remember this Sunday aka the week day when most people play ArmA online? Well Steam and Steamworks were down. Which, if ArmA was to have Steamworks, meant no multiplay.
Yes even if you and people were connected and were playing the game - all of you would've been kicked out because if you lose connection to Steamworks even for a second - you are immediately a pirate.

Steam is horrible for anything but buying games.

And Workshop is crap. Good luck digging through thousands of mods to find the one you want whereas sites like Armaholic can be googled and provide a lot of info, screenshots, videos and news that Workshop doesn't.

[mrcash2009]

Having to be forced into it with purchasing Skyrim and not knowing via Game.co.uk which would lead me to steam to actually download it (didn't realise it at the time), which means I know use it (albeit offline 90 percent of the time and no other games I will buy through it) I would say "no".

I can see how handy it might be to users, but all in all I still prefer all my games no where near it. I like to own my data & not get it locked into a system with an off switch, its "nice" but I wont but anything through it. Physical or Sprocket ... nice & simple, heres your data, heres your key, heres a place to grab the updated as you see fit when they arrive from multiple mirrors & servers ... how it should always be, online stores and digital should act like a physical game in the same way even if its just data tranfer from a server.

I feel allot of Steam fan boys will one day shit a brick when the servers go down and cant login or net goes down for a time.

If I had a friend who acted like steam, they would be known as a control freak.

[Nicholas]

I like to own my data & not get it locked into a system with an off switch, its "nice" but I wont but anything through it. Physical or Sprocket ...

You like Sprocket? I'm guessing you've never read the Sprocket Terms of Service? They are very similar to Steam, only with Steam you run their program.


Termination and Limitation of Access

The right to access our Site or use our services is strictly held by us and we reserve the right to remove or limit your access to the site or the access to the services of our Site for any or no reason.


13. TERM AND TERMINATION

Either you or Valve has the right to terminate or cancel your Account or a particular Subscription at any time. You understand and agree that the cancellation of your Account or a particular Subscription is your sole right and remedy with respect to any dispute with Valve.

[mrcash2009]

Yes but that's to activate or buy anything, your not tied to them with a umbilical chord day in day out like steam does, so your example isn't a good one. In fact its a poor one. Sprocket dont exclusively distribute its own updates, you can get them from anywhere mirror'd even if they were down for some time. Once you have the data its yours, only issues are intial activation.

You cant escape everything with any digital service, but you can limit the damage that Steam would cause if you had 80 games with no access to any updates anywhere else if steam vanished or had issues.

Think physical, if a shop said to you "You can buy this, but we have to be open for you to update it, you cant get any updated but from us" I bet no one would be into the idea.

Not sure if its posted but Nielsen posted this in the Skyrim thread:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/02/01/thought-do-we-own-our-steam-games/

[Nicholas]

You're not making any sense and it seems as though you're just coming up with hot air.


Not sure if its posted but Nielsen posted this in the Skyrim thread:

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/02/01/thought-do-we-own-our-steam-games/

You technically do not own any games you buy, even if they are on a disc. You are just purchasing a limited license to use the program.



2. Limited Use of License:
the Licensor hereby grants, and by installing the Program
you thereby accept, a restricted, non-exclusive license and right to install and use one
(1) copy of the Program for your personal use. You may not network the Program or
otherwise install it or use it on more than one computer at a time, except if expressly
authorized otherwise in the applicable documentation. The Program is licensed, not
sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Program.

4. License Transfer:
You may permanently transfer all of your rights under this
License to the recipient, provided that the recipient agrees to the terms of this
License and you remove the Program from your computer.

5. Termination:
This License is effective until terminated.You may terminate the
License at any time by destroying the Program and any New Material. The Licensor
may, at its discretion, terminate this License in the event that you fail to comply with
the terms and conditions contained herein. In such event, you must immediately
destroy the Program and any New Material.

Although, there is one conflict:



This computer software program, any printed materials, any on-line or electronic documentation,
and any and all copies and derivative works of such software program
and materials (the “Program”) are the copyrighted work. All use of the Program is
governed by the copyright law and by the terms of the End-User License
Agreement, which is provided below (“License”). By using the Program you agree to
be legally bound by the terms of this license agreement. Any use, reproduction or
redistribution of the Program not in accordance with the terms of the License is
expressly prohibited. If you do not agree to the terms of this Agreement, do not
install or use the Program. You may, however, return it to your place of purchase
for a full refund.

[mrcash2009]

Your nit picking, you know the point I make, this thread says it all, that article was just a point ref not being able to do anything if your not "on" ... we could end up talking about not owning our own identity soon I can go on and on if you wanted, but its not the point. Simple, Arma3 + Steam = NO.

Its all about how much felxibilty and choice you get, Steam does not give that with the bigger picture in mind.

End.

[kylania]

X3: Albion Prelude is coming out soon. It's a game where even with the disc you have to activate it on Steam, however once you've done that you can uninstall Steam and play to your heart's content. Maybe that kind of system could be used for this? Personally I enjoy Steam for silly little games (like OFPDR and Ghost Sniper Whatever) but for mission critical games like ArmA2 or DCS, I want stand alone games that won't get interrupted when uninterruptable power supplies go down...

[DMarkwick]

You like Sprocket? I'm guessing you've never read the Sprocket Terms of Service? They are very similar to Steam, only with Steam you run their program.

Key difference being that Steam will not only lock you out of Steam, but all the games that you need Steam to play. Sprocket, while having a similar Sprocket-limiting power, won't lock you out of your purchased games. Sprocket is distribution only.

[mrcash2009]

Yes DM that's kind of the point that I didn't explain in a nutshell ;)

Lets face it your tied to something in all of it (hell even your O/S needs activating) ... point is the best of two evils (or more than two).

For example just looking around at complaints about Steam workshop for just Skyrim, slowdowns server issues when grabbing mods, esp when things get real busy and larger and larger mods (look at what Arma3's mods size will be). I admit mods are people power and down to modders where they distribute, but these companies offering large contracts that can "do it all and handle the data" shows that they cant all of the time, and putting all of your eggs in one basket is open to all sorts of ball ache and issues.

[Pathetic_Berserker]

X3: Albion Prelude is coming out soon. It's a game where even with the disc you have to activate it on Steam, however once you've done that you can uninstall Steam and play to your heart's content. Maybe that kind of system could be used for this? ......

But realy. Why the middle man? Your game and your purchase are perfectly secure without steam, steam dosn't improve anything, so there is no real good reason to use it (except where they have used thier power for evil and have a strangle hold on a game you want).


I'm going to go out on limb here and guess that all those supporting it are either middle men, or middle managment, ..birds of a feather,. ..and all that.

[Nicholas]

Key difference being that Steam will not only lock you out of Steam, but all the games that you need Steam to play. Sprocket, while having a similar Sprocket-limiting power, won't lock you out of your purchased games. Sprocket is distribution only.

Sprocket can lock you out of your games. If they shut down the service, then you would not have access to your games, would you? Unless you of course already have them downloaded and saved. But, you can also download and save your games from Steam as well.

[Celery]

Sprocket can lock you out of your games. If they shut down the service, then you would not have access to your games, would you? Unless you of course already have them downloaded and saved.

You already answered to yourself there. If Steam decides to get nasty, you won't be able to play your installed games.

[Nicholas]

You already answered to yourself there. If Steam decides to get nasty, you won't be able to play your installed games.

Says who? Steam says they can shut down the service at any time they wish. But they do not say they will not allow you to download the games.

But, they are not required to do so. As stated here:


NEITHER VALVE, ITS LICENSORS, NOR THEIR AFFILIATES SHALL BE LIABLE IN ANY WAY FOR LOSS OR DAMAGE OF ANY KIND RESULTING FROM THE USE OR INABILITY TO USE STEAM, YOUR ACCOUNT

They only have such terms to cover their asses in case someone decides to sue them. I'm almost certain Valve or GOG or Sprocket would be kind enough to allow their customers to download their purchases in the event that they terminate their services.

[Pathetic_Berserker]

^^ And the case where a downloaded game relies on the service to be played?

[Nicholas]

^^ And the case where a downloaded game relies on the service to be played?

I suppose they (The developers) could make a patch to allow games to run without the service? It's not rocket science....

[Pathetic_Berserker]

I suppose they (The developers) could make a patch to allow games to run without the service? It's not rocket science....

No its not rocket science, in fact some may argue that rocket science is simpler, but it is a completely avoidable development/cost overhead.

[Nicholas]

No its not rocket science, in fact some may argue that rocket science is simpler, but it is a completely avoidable development/cost overhead.

In the event that GOG, Sprocket, and Valve shut their services down, I think there'd be more important things to worry about than "OMG I just lost my whole game collection!". Live life and enjoy what you got. :)

[Pathetic_Berserker]

...... there'd be more important things to worry about than "OMG I just lost my whole game collection!". ...

NOW YOU JEST! :p:p:p:p:p:p

[metalcraze]

Also an important thing to remember.

With Sprocket or any other distribution service BIS uses now - you will have DRM removed from your game a few months after release due to BIS being cool about it.

With Steam you will NEVER have DRM removed. The thing is - you never know what will happen to Steam in 10 years time. Especially when it comes to Steamworks which ties into the game so deeply - it will render it utterly useless if its servers ever go down. A good example of a game rendered completely unplayable due to DRM - is Silent Storm series.
It cannot be even launched under Windows 7 because of old version of Starforce (and there's no crack that I know of). So either you install an old operating system (which people who would want to play the game today may not have) or you will never play Silent Storm again. Ever. And that was disc-only DRM.

[Celery]

Nicholas, your defense of Steam seems to be built upon shaky foundations:
- Saying that you don't own your games as if it made arguments against draconian consumer rights policies void
- Quoting terms of service as if they made arguments for why they're bad void
- Steam is nice because other download services have similar policies that are almost but not quite as strict
- You should buy games (sorry, limited user licenses to games because you don't buy the game itself) on Steam because you shouldn't worry too much if you lose your game collection (or rather the licenses to it)

[Nicholas]

Nicholas, your defense of Steam seems to be built upon shaky foundations:
- Saying that you don't own your games as if it made arguments against draconian consumer rights policies void
- Quoting terms of service as if they made arguments for why they're bad void
- Steam is nice because other download services have similar policies that are almost but not quite as strict
- You should buy games (sorry, limited user licenses to games because you don't buy the game itself) on Steam because you shouldn't worry too much if you lose your game collection (or rather the licenses to it)

I voted to not use Steam. I just don't understand the hatred. Most of the hatred about "OMG they can cancel the service anytime!" can be applied to any digital content. And you don't really own the games you purchase - no matter where you purchase them. I would hope that you would know this, considering you are sporting the BIS "Developer" Avatar for some strange reason. Steam isn't really all that bad that people make it seem. Steam has made BIS plenty of money - there are millions of users everyday that are on Steam.

---------- Post added at 18:22 ---------- Previous post was at 18:16 ----------

I have never seen such a bias against Steam by someone sporting the BIS Developer avatar either....seems as though everyone else who actually work for BIS try to remain unbiased.

[Pathetic_Berserker]

^^ I think the problem is more about the lengths you have gone to over a technicality. In reality the statment that ""OMG they can cancel the service anytime!" can be applied to any digital content ", is in effect false. Only with systems like Steamworks can publishers have that level of control over the digital content, but this in turn gives power to Steam at the same time.

But in my eyes this is just a negative to steam, not the whole reason for not using it.

The reason I didn't vote to use steam is because it serves no particular benifit to BIS or its clients. Steam is a great avenue for publishers/developers who are a bit lazy about protecting thier IP and/or arranging distribution. BIS on the other hand already has this covered. So why would BIS subject itself to the potentialy negative side effects and extra development costs of incorporating Steam, or subject purchasers to Steamworks, when its not required.

[Nicholas]

^^ I think the problem is more about the lengths you have gone to over a technicality. In reality the statment that ""OMG they can cancel the service anytime!" can be applied to any digital content ", is in effect false. I believe you mean "in fact". But anyways, I wasn't referring to the content, a simple grammar error on my part. I was referring to the services. For example: Steam, GOG, Sprocket, Amazon, iTunes, and Google may terminate you account or their services whenever they wish to do so without notice and are not liable for any losses.

[Celery]

And you don't really own the games you purchase - no matter where you purchase them.

Yes, you have said that many times now, and I've already provided you with feedback regarding repeating such a meaningless thing.


"you only own the license" means nothing at all because it's obvious in any case that you're not allowed to sell burned copies of it. Stating that phrase brings nothing to the table when the matter at hand is whether a soulbinding policy sucks or not.

You don't own a physical copy in the true sense of the word (you can't treat the content of the media like it was your own work) but you can still resell it.
You don't own a digital copy in the true sense and you can't resell it.
You don't own a Steam copy in the true sense and the service can block access to the game you've installed.

See, stating the obvious has no relevance in the discussion whatsoever.



I am not a Steam hater mind you, I have some 100 games there. But I do challenge fallacious views of its supposed bliss compared to other distribution methods.

[Nicholas]

Yes, you have said that many times now, and I've already provided you with feedback regarding repeating such a meaningless thing.



You don't own a physical copy in the true sense of the word (you can't treat the content of the media like it was your own work) but you can still resell it.
You don't own a digital copy in the true sense and you can't resell it.
You don't own a Steam copy in the true sense and the service can block access to the game you installed.

See, stating the obvious has no relevance in the discussion whatsoever.


I'll post this again. I know you can still "sell" (Transfer of License) it.

As I have said, there is a conflict here.


This computer software program, any printed materials, any on-line or electronic documentation,
and any and all copies and derivative works of such software program
and materials (the “Program”) are the copyrighted work. All use of the Program is
governed by the copyright law and by the terms of the End-User License
Agreement, which is provided below (“License”). By using the Program you agree to
be legally bound by the terms of this license agreement. Any use, reproduction or
redistribution of the Program not in accordance with the terms of the License is
expressly prohibited. If you do not agree to the terms of this Agreement, do not
install or use the Program. You may, however, return it to your place of purchase
for a full refund.


Funny thing, even Sprocket is not abiding by the ToS of ArmA.


4. License Transfer:
You may permanently transfer all of your rights under this
License to the recipient, provided that the recipient agrees to the terms of this
License and you remove the Program from your computer.

[Celery]

For example: Steam, GOG, Sprocket, Amazon, iTunes, and Google may terminate you account or their services whenever they wish to do so without notice and are not liable for any losses.
Does that make it right in your opinion? The way you're constantly telling us what they're legally able to do and what their terms of service read, I'm assuming yes.

[b00ce]

I love Steam because it's incredibly convenient. I don't know why people are making such a big deal about Steam's ability to pull the plug on your account. It only happens if you do stupid shit, like gift games to people for money, that breaks the rules. If the only thing you do on steam is buy/play games and make friends, you've got nothing to worry about.

Also, I was able to play ALL of my steam games for years with no connection to the internet (Complicated story, not worth writing out). Offline mode, Valve thought of it so you'd be able to play the games you have installed without being connected to "their evil DRM servers". When the valve servers went down the worst that happened was that I couldn't access the Steam store or chat to friends. HORRIBLE, I know. However, I could play games to my heart's content.

That said, I don't think Steam works/workshop would be beneficial to the ArmA community. The infrastructure that has been set up already is perfect for what the community needs.

[Nicholas]

Does that make it right in your opinion? The way you're constantly telling us what they're legally able to do and what their terms of service read, I'm assuming yes.

Fuck no, it does not make it right, But everyone must abide by and respect their Terms of Service.

[Celery]

Fuck no, it does not make it right, But everyone must abide by and respect their Terms of Service......
Was someone here breaking their terms of service? If not, what is the point of your broken record antics in this thread? I thought we were discussing whether such terms are fair to begin with, so posting some legalese as a matter of fact is completely fruitless.

[Nicholas]

Was someone here breaking their terms of service? If not, what is the point of your broken record antics in this thread?

Well, everyone here is so fucking worried about Steam "switching the service off" so I simply showed them that they are LEGALLY allowed to do so!! How fucking hard is it to understand!?!

[Celery]

Well, everyone here is so fucking worried about Steam "switching the service off" so I simply showed them that they are LEGALLY allowed to do so!! How fucking hard is it to understand!?!

See, that is a completely unconstructive remark. It brings nothing to the discussion. Everyone knows that they're allowed to do so, and that's what they think is bad in the first place.

[Nicholas]

I thought we were discussing whether such terms are fair to begin with, so posting some legalese as a matter of fact is completely fruitless.

If you think it is unfair, then WHY click on the "I Agree" when you sign up!?!!? You are given the opportunity to read and agree/disagree to the ToS before signing up!


"Oh that's not fair, but I'll click on "I Agree" anyways!!"

[Celery]

If you think it is unfair, then WHY click on the "I Agree" when you sign up!?!!? You are given the opportunity to read and agree/disagree to the ToS before signing up!

You're completely missing the point of a discussion whether such policies are good or bad. Whether someone clicks "agree" or "disagree" has no bearing whatsoever. You can agree on the terms because you already paid for the goddamn game and want to play it, but you can still think that the terms suck and you can still present valid arguments for that view. Then someone comes up to recite the terms that you already agreed on and says that they're legally allowed to do all that, and that's a horrible way to discuss things because it leads nowhere.

[Nicholas]

Whether someone clicks "agree" or "disagree" has no bearing whatsoever.


You can agree on the terms because you already paid for the goddamn game and want to play it

Wow, I'd like to see this argument in a court case! That is not a valid excuse for not reading the ToS and simply clicking on "I Agree" without reading it. It is your job to read and accept or reject those terms, whether or not you've already paid for the game and just want to play.

[Pathetic_Berserker]

^^ And you appear to quoting the same few lines over and over again about 'Terms" without refrencing the details/differences of the actual services in question

[Celery]

Wow, I'd like to see this argument in a court case! That is not a valid excuse for not reading the ToS and simply clicking on "I Agree" without reading it. It is your job to read and accept or reject those terms, whether or not you've already paid for the game and just want to play.

At this point it's obvious that you have no concept of discussion and argumentation, so I'll retire from this tiresome interaction. I do hope that you'll at least reflect upon what I tried to tell you.

[Nicholas]

^^ And you appear to quoting the same few lines over and over again about 'Terms" without refrencing the details/differences of the actual services in question

My last few posts, I was not talking about any specific service ToS.......

The problem here is that we are not on the same level. I am talking about these policies from the legal standpoint, while you are talking about whether they are "good or bad" for the users. And I've already told you that I do not believe it is good for the users and voted "No" to Steamworks a long, long time ago. I've told you that there is a conflict with digital distribution and the ArmA EULA. I don't understand why you were still trying to carry on a "discussion".

[metalcraze]

Well, everyone here is so fucking worried about Steam "switching the service off" so I simply showed them that they are LEGALLY allowed to do so!! How fucking hard is it to understand!?!

Who cares if they are legally allowed to do so or not?

Are you a Valve employee or something? Hope they pay you well for your legal services.

[Nicholas]

Who cares if they are legally allowed to do so or not?

Are you a Valve employee or something? Hope they pay you well for your legal services.

I'm not an employee of any video game company. Only a strong supporter of BIS. And obviously many people seem to care if they are legally allowed to do so.

[Pathetic_Berserker]

My last few posts, I was not talking about any specific service ToS.......

The problem here is that we are not on the same level. I am talking about these policies from the legal standpoint, while you are talking about whether they are "good or bad" for the users. ....

Yes you made your point but then where? What did you expect? When things come to a head and end up in court do you think its just a matter of someone repeating the same few points again and again till someone pats them on back and says good job?

Of course not.

[Nicholas]

Holy fuck, this is getting off topic..


Anyways...NO STEAM. Although, I think it would be cool to see some integration such as managing mods and browsing servers or the ability to jump in a friends/clans game. Although, you can't do 50% steamworks. :(

[guiltyspark]

i would be furious if there was no steam integration , especially the new mod support they have going in steam workshop.

All i have to say is that if you own a gaming PC and dont use steam for all of your purchases you are just stubborn and whiney.

Games have no resell value anymore regardless of what you buy , physical copy or not. Gamestop made this a fact in the gaming industry. pc games are worth less than dust to resell.

[b00ce]

As much as I love steam, I think that being furious that ArmA III doesn't use steam features that undermine the ArmA community is a little crazy. Honestly, I don't care how people get it, as long as they get it. It's the same product, whether boxed, sprocket or Steam. I get almost all of my games through steam for the convenience (No disk swapping! :yay:) and the wicked sales they always have going on.

On to the purpose of the thread, the most I'd want to see is the Steam overlay working with launchers. I miss being able to chat with friends and surf the net without alt + tabbing. Beyond that, I don't think Steam Works adds anything and Workshop would, like I said earlier, undermine the communities infrastructure.

[MadDogX]

Just ignore the obvious troll.

[djfluffwug]

I have had too many problems with steam and their support so I would not want it.

[metalcraze]

On to the purpose of the thread, the most I'd want to see is the Steam overlay working with launchers. I miss being able to chat with friends and surf the net without alt + tabbing.

Library -> Add non-steam game -> select launcher's exe

Start the launcher through Steam library -> enjoy overlay in your ArmA2.


Tested with Alpinestars launcher - works perfectly.


I just have a question though - you are going to chat with friends and surf the net while being shot together with your bros in ArmA? :D

[DMarkwick]

Sprocket can lock you out of your games. If they shut down the service, then you would not have access to your games, would you? Unless you of course already have them downloaded and saved. But, you can also download and save your games from Steam as well.

Well my Sprocket downloads are backed up and the activations keys are safe, so I cannot be denied those products. I CAN be denied re-downloading them at some point in the future that's true. But with SteamWorks, I need Steam to run the games. If I'm locked out of Steam or otherwise cannot access it, that's it, games cannot be used.

It's like having a second operating system managing just the games, if that service is unavailable (for any reason) then you have no access to your games. At least with Sprocket I have everything I'll ever need without needing Sprocket to manage it and authorise it, each time I wish to install or play.

[Sickboy]

"Or otherwise cannot access it", didn't they invent the offline mode for this? https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=3160-AGCB-2555

[metalcraze]

Offline mode for multiplayer games?

[DMarkwick]

"Or otherwise cannot access it", didn't they invent the offline mode for this? https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=3160-AGCB-2555

For the full Steamworks functionality, which I assume also manages multiplay, I might guess that the offline mode would be SP only. I also believe you need access for installation, although that's a smaller issue :)

[b00ce]

I just have a question though - you are going to chat with friends and surf the net while being shot together with your bros in ArmA? :D

Thanks, I'll check it out.

And look at my signature, I end up sitting at base a lot of the time. :p

[kylania]

Thanks, I'll check it out.

And look at my signature, I end up sitting at base after crashing millions of dollars worth of airframes into mountain sides a lot of the time. :p

Steam Overlay is kinda cool.

[b00ce]

Steam Overlay is kinda cool.

I see what you did there. lol

[Nicholas]

Blah...I have Steam overlay disabled completely.

[Spooky Lynx]

As an option - maybe. But I have only negative Steam experience so please don't make it Steam-dependable.

[b00ce]

please don't make it Steam-dependable.

BIS won't. I can guarantee that.

[Slides]

The PC game industry has already adopted Steam. There is no question that BIS has NO choice but to offer at the very least sales through Steam, if not total integration. Total integration would be great to have, and great for the user too, but it's up to BIS.

Being angry at Steam is not going to change the reality that Steam is the leader of digital game sales and BIS MUST sell through Steam as it has been doing.

[DMarkwick]

The PC game industry has already adopted Steam. There is no question that BIS has NO choice but to offer at the very least sales through Steam, if not total integration. Total integration would be great to have, and great for the user too, but it's up to BIS.

Being angry at Steam is not going to change the reality that Steam is the leader of digital game sales and BIS MUST sell through Steam as it has been doing.

You mention the games industry as though it were one big entity, and that as such "it" has adopted Steam as its digital distribution mode of choice. It is currently the market leader, but many games (most even) don't use it. Maybe that will change, maybe digital distribution will become more diverse (i.e. Sprocket) but there is no "must" about it. However, as ArmA2 is already a firm Steam product, I agree that it will happen for ArmA3. Just not exclusively, or with Steamworks.

I don't see much actual anger toward Steam, as a service it seems to be performing well all things considered. I just don't wish for all my games to be subject to one super-EULA that can have the possibility of simply locking me out for ALL titles, whether deliberately or erroneously. I have Skyrim, which uses Steam, and that's fine it's one, single game. But if I have 20 Steam games, and one of the developers decide to complain to Steam because it believed I stole a texture to use in a mod for another game, Steam locks me out for ALL games. And Steam don't have to explain a damn thing to me, or even make any effort to check the accusation, which is by far the easiest path for them. When any company gets big, the glorious path of least resistance becomes the path.

[OnlyRazor]

Well said, sir! :ok:

[Chrissd21]

The PC game industry has already adopted Steam. There is no question that BIS has NO choice but to offer at the very least sales through Steam, if not total integration. Total integration would be great to have, and great for the user too, but it's up to BIS.

Being angry at Steam is not going to change the reality that Steam is the leader of digital game sales and BIS MUST sell through Steam as it has been doing.

Well no, Steam is the industry leader for certain categories of games. If you like Paradox games then you're better off being on GamersGate. Steam has some, uh, issues.. Divine Wind was several months late to Steam, the current Victoria 2 DLC completely screws the game. Multiplayer for, what was it. EU III? Forget, but the Steam version is incompatible with any other. GamersGate is fine though, so that's the industry leader if you're a fan of certain strategy games. Hearts of Iron, Vicky, EU, etc. If you play ArmA then Sprocket would be the industry leader, or the DVD sales, so Amazon maybe. There's a few games where if you like mods you're better off not playing on Steam because it has absolutely horrible support. VAC was even banning everyone who used a certain HL2 mod a while back, the mod changed a texture so VAC decided that it of course must be a wall hack. Actually Steam rep said that VAC couldn't be told not to look for that, so it's still there. Running constantly in the background of your machine. False positives will get your entire account banned for life so stay away from mods. :P


I have 171 games on Steam including store bought, Steam bought, which I think a few mods like , free games like America's Army and some demo's. But there's still well over 100 retail games in there so I'm not all that hateful towards Steam. I do think it's better than other forms of DRM out there (except when it includes all the regular DRM and the Steam application. Having to login to three different auth servers in order to play single player is a joke. But yea, I have a few games, I still buy games on there, and I could write you a well reasoned essay as to why ArmA should stay well away. Complete with inline citations. :P

I'd much rather buy a disc version (collectors edition with shiny physical items that are completely useless? lol), or from a site like Sprocket or GoG.

[Slides]

You mention the games industry as though it were one big entity, and that as such "it" has adopted Steam as its digital distribution mode of choice. It is currently the market leader, but many games (most even) don't use it. Maybe that will change, maybe digital distribution will become more diverse (i.e. Sprocket) but there is no "must" about it. However, as ArmA2 is already a firm Steam product, I agree that it will happen for ArmA3. Just not exclusively, or with Steamworks.

I don't see much actual anger toward Steam, as a service it seems to be performing well all things considered. I just don't wish for all my games to be subject to one super-EULA that can have the possibility of simply locking me out for ALL titles, whether deliberately or erroneously. I have Skyrim, which uses Steam, and that's fine it's one, single game. But if I have 20 Steam games, and one of the developers decide to complain to Steam because it believed I stole a texture to use in a mod for another game, Steam locks me out for ALL games. And Steam don't have to explain a damn thing to me, or even make any effort to check the accusation, which is by far the easiest path for them. When any company gets big, the glorious path of least resistance becomes the path.

Yes, the games industry is one big entity. Which is why it's called the games industry and on account of Steam being the leader for PC games distribution, BIS will continue to have to rely on STEAM for a good portion of their sales. Steam customer support is one of the best in the industry, and while the risk of an account being unfairly banned remains in any digital rights protected online environment, with Steam and Valve's credibility taken into account, there is a good chance you will be dealt with fairly.

Steam's success has proven that the model works and is here to stay. It has also been a great way to combat PC game piracy with its ease of access and good deals.

---------- Post added at 01:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:57 AM ----------


Well no, Steam is the industry leader for certain categories of games.
This includes almost all of the game genres that are immensely popular, thus making Steam an industry leader. The fact that you have 171 Steam games says it all. You wanting to buy a disc version are now the exception to the rule.

[DMarkwick]

Yes, the games industry is one big entity.

This sentence has the remarkable quality of being simultaneously correct, and utterly meaningless. However I maintain my stance of agreeing with you that Steam is the largest digital distributor of games and that BIS will continue to use them. :)

[OnlyRazor]

Now all we need is a BIS Dev to say there will be no Steamworks in Arma 3, somebody else to say that it should, and then I can start quoting that insane guy from Far Cry 3 :yay:

[FlibbertyJibbit]

I don't see why not.

[Rebel44]

Now all we need is a BIS Dev to say there will be no Steamworks in Arma 3, somebody else to say that it should, and then I can start quoting that insane guy from Far Cry 3 :yay:

I dont see any reson why at least Steam version shouldnt have some Steamworks features.

[OnlyRazor]

I dont see any reson why at least Steam version shouldnt have some Steamworks features.

I don't think Steam works that way. It's either all-Steamworks or no-Steamworks. Besides, even if it did, what would that mean? Achievements? Steam workshop? DRM that would disconnect players the second their Steam sync faultered?

[jblackrupert]

Steam's success has proven that the model works and is here to stay. It has also been a great way to combat PC game piracy with its ease of access and good deals.


Steams success is because of SALES on games. it's DRM scheme was broken long ago. The no Steam piracy thing is MYTH

If it weren't for the sales Steam would have been dumped long long ago.

[metalcraze]

FYI pirate scene does Steam releases even before official sales start because they can just preload and crack puny Steam's DRM.
OTOH nobody has cracked BIS DRM yet.

Steamworks is a bloatware aimed at children who want meaningless achievements that thousands of players unlocked as well.

[jblackrupert]

Gabe Newell just has a talent for making everyone else look like the bad guys when Steam is just as bad when it comes to intrusive DRM and nasty EULA's.

He's the Steve Jobs of the videogame industry.

[OnlyRazor]

He's not such a bad guy. They make actual quality products without outsourcing all their labour to Chinese sweatfactories.

[metalcraze]

Last time Valve developed something was ~5 years ago and it wasn't even anything special.
So I don't know what do you mean. Valve just lives off of Steam now.

As for Steam itself - it isn't really a quality product. It's overloaded with "social" stuff way too much.

[Tonci87]

Last time Valve developed something was ~5 years ago and it wasn't even anything special.
So I don't know what do you mean. Valve just lives off of Steam now.

As for Steam itself - it isn't really a quality product. It's overloaded with "social" stuff way too much.

Portal 2?

And they made Half Life 2, one of the most epic games of all times.

[metalcraze]

Portal 2?

And they made Half Life 2, one of the most epic games of all times.

Portal is not made by Valve. Neither are CS and L4D series while we are at it.

HL2 is a mediocre shooter. I never understood what's so special about shooting the same type of enemy across linear corridor. Maybe Halo grade hype?

But that's kinda derailing

[MadDogX]

Portal is not made by Valve. Neither are CS and L4D series while we are at it.
I don't know about CS, but Portal and L4D were certainly made by Valve. Do you have links to information stating otherwise?

[Sickboy]

I don't know about CS, but Portal and L4D were certainly made by Valve. Do you have links to information stating otherwise?
I think he's referring at who invented the concepts. L4D and CS both started as Mods iirc.
Still I don't see the importance of this nuance.

[Smurf]

Steamworks => Steam only game (you still can buy it elsewhere, but it HAVE to be activated at Steam) and silly functions (Achievements, maybe stats tracking and cloud saving).
I don´t have any problem with Steam (and can´t understand why so much hate towards it here....) but Steamworks seems a waste of time.

[160thSOAR]

FYI pirate scene does Steam releases even before official sales start because they can just preload and crack puny Steam's DRM.
OTOH nobody has cracked BIS DRM yet.

Steamworks is a bloatware aimed at children who want meaningless achievements that thousands of players unlocked as well.

No it's not.

Steam is hardly perfect, but it offers a whole lot more than some achievements. Steam lets me keep all my games in one place so I can easily do whatever I want without having to do annoying disk switching. As an added bonus, I don't have to worry about misplacing a disk that I've had for years, something I'm very good at doing. I like Steam for the convenience, nothing else.

[MadDogX]

No it's not.

Steam is hardly perfect, but it offers a whole lot more than some achievements. Steam lets me keep all my games in one place so I can easily do whatever I want without having to do annoying disk switching. As an added bonus, I don't have to worry about misplacing a disk that I've had for years, something I'm very good at doing. I like Steam for the convenience, nothing else.
You seem to be confusing two different things. The advantages you listed are basic Steam features that have nothing to do with Steamworks.