Anyone else is afraid what ArmA III is going to do to the addons scene?

[Altimeter]

We all know giant mods like during OFP-times cant be done anymore, one single tank for ArmA II takes more effort then 50 addons for Operation Flashpoint, mainly due to the texturing.

Big mods like the Invasion 44 couldnt be released for ArmA, instead got ported for ArmA II, and in all likelyhood will be ported again for ArmA III.
Why should Addon makers bother for ArmA III to even start? The time the mod community starts rolling, the next game is due for release anyway.

Look at the addons that have been released, 90% are ArmA I or even OFP ports, or the infamous "Special Forces Reskins".


Is there any way BIS could steer against that? Release more powerful / easier mod tools?

[Soul_Assassin]

mainly due to the texturing

errr, texturing is probably the only thing that remained the same :s

[Altimeter]

errr, texturing is probably the only thing that remained the same :s

RVMATs and Shaders in OFP, are you kidding?

In OFP you got yourself a texture from somewhere, painted in on your addon and it looked at least "ok" ingame. Not possible anymore ;)

[Ballistic09]

Big mods like the Invasion 44 couldnt be released for ArmA

errr, you're not picking very good supporting evidence... (http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=5767) :p

[W0lle]

It's a fact that development takes way too long if you want bug free and decent models. As ArmA2 was released we were barely ready with CWR1, and by the look of it it will be the same when A3 is going to be released.

And honestly, I'm tired of working on a Mod every day for years, literally doing nothing else besides that with the game just to start over again when the next title is pushed out and then repeat with the next title.

[Fox '09]

No, the community has to change. Especially with characters - either you learn to do something original or you stay.

Development time doesn't have too much to do with the configging etc in my experiences, it's the actual making of the models etc. It's all a lengthy process, especially if you do it from scratch. the only time one would spend most of their time 'texturing' would probably be people who retexture, which sounds exactly opposite of what you are asking


Teams spend years working on their addons. It's useless to whine about how X mod didn't get into Y game before Z game came out. most people who think like that truely don't care what they say so long as they get the addon faster and suited to them. The teams can't win, it's either release it for arma 2 first and get annoyed till no end about arma 3, or work on arma 3 version and receive all the comments on why they should make it for an earlier revision of the game.

Personally, I work without the thought of games. I will release my addons for whatever game I am playing them with. If I like them in arma 3 better than arma 2 then I will release in arma 3, and it's as simple as that. It's a waste of time to reconfigure and fix for two games. If people want my addons then they have to buy the game that its for. Sure, people will whine about it. They always will and always have.

I know i sound like a pessimist but i truly believe the above is true. a large part of the community is those who demand and ask. It's a waste of time to give those people credibility when making decisions on what to create addons for.

[ProfTournesol]

It's a fact that development takes way too long if you want bug free and decent models. As ArmA2 was released we were barely ready with CWR1, and by the look of it it will be the same when A3 is going to be released.

And honestly, I'm tired of working on a Mod every day for years, literally doing nothing else besides that with the game just to start over again when the next title is pushed out and then repeat with the next title.

That's why i stick to OFP. Plus some lazzyness :D

[Laqueesha]

To the OP:

http://www.operatorchan.org/t/arch/src/t149187_lolwut%20(1).jpg

[NodUnit]

If an addon has been completed for A2 when A3 rolls around, or some time into A3 then it's possible that it may get imported, supposedly all that would be needed is perhaps some work in O2 for selections and configing, the model and texture as well as the set config would be the finished.

A1 had a long slow down because it introduced shaders that many were not familiar with, A2 had a similar experience mainly in how to use rvmats, unless another major thing comes up I doubt it will take as long to take off.

You have to ask yourself though, what drives you, is it to your content in a game, is it to see something you want to see in the game, is it to see what can be done with the engine when you push it and work around it's limits?

[W0lle]

The same was said about A1 -> A2

It obviously wasn't that easy, else many Mods wouldn't fight with models and configs until this day. And I doubt that adding ragdoll effects to units and PhysX compatibility is a matter of 'import and save' and add a few lines to a config.

[NodUnit]

Who knows, but that is not to say everyone will be making use of the features. There will always be hardships to overcome, you can't move forward without them, the end question is are you going to overcome them or let them block you.

Of course there is no rule saying that people MUST do some form of modding, everyone is always free to quit at any time (but can you).

Besides isn't it a bit early to start panicking, within two days it's as though there is a big dark cloud hovering over the forums.

[[GLT] Legislator]

To be honest ... I wasn't happy when A3 got announced. I created about 60 missions for A2/AO and just started converting my old A1 missions to A2. So when A3 is going to be released I can throw my work away because everyone I know will want to play A3. Years of work for nothing. Guess the only way to avoid this is to skip A3 for a while. I don't want to pay for new hardware anyway. But those are just my problems with the situation, not the fault of BIS or anyone else. So I blame nobody but myself.

[NodUnit]

It's still a year away and there is no garuntee that everyone will move, in fact there is less, hell people are still modding for OFP and Arma1, the announcement doesn't mean we should think of it as the end of the modding scene for A2 and OA.

[ProfTournesol]

Modding isn't a popularity contest, it's a hobby. As long as you have fun with it, that's nice, even if only a few people use your work. You can play ArmA2 and mod OFP like me or others, that's not a problem. Thus you shouldn't care what will happen next.

[PROTOTYPE 001]

I still play OFP and ARMA 1. This is no big deal. To many people are freaking out about something that is not even out yet.

BIS just needs to answer the question about ARMA2 addons if they are compatible right away or if they need anything changed. This is what everyone should be asking.

[Jtec]

I think a big issue with mods is that there wasnt much help with regards to bis sample models. I personally would have loved to see a example model in each catergory. 2 wheeled, 4 wheeled, tanks, boats ect. Its far too hard for beginners to pick up and start placing a model into arma2 compared to ofp days...

[PuFu]

I am not concerned per say, but BIS should take a bit of time, and release some helpers here and there, especially since most of what is required from their part is already there:
1. Sample models for each big class. I don't need to actual mesh, but rather its layout. Have been requesting some sort of sample for the damn animals for almost 1 year.
2. Some helpers, plug-ins for outside software. i know they have some, especially for those max and maya (check VBS 1.5). Shaders as well. O2 is good, but the professional modelers out there (and by that i mean the ones working with 3d software for a living) are not gonna re-learn another software just to make an addon.

[NoRailgunner]

BIS like any other company have to work profitable...

People working in their spare time and for free are not forced to rush/release or stop their projects. Its a huge difference if you have to work on time schedules or if you have the choice of doing what you like. :)
Is it better to have projects released that are only-mostly closer to "50/50 done" or is it better to have one project "finally done"?

[Craig.Turner]

I agree, its just not possible to "chase" engines nowadays - they are moving so fast.

You need a plan and you need to stick with it, and concentrate on that alone.

So many times I hear the same cry "Just port it over", when actually its not that simple.

As soon as BF3 was announced our community wanted to know if and when we would move PR: BF2 to it.

Now that ArmA3 is announced, we hear the same thing ...... as you know PR: ArmA2 has taken over a year now from our first announcement, and as we already know - it takes time because its a hobby for the Developers - you can not force people to a deadline.

One post today on our Forums summed it up for me to an extent:


Why not :( Why is it that PR is always 1 engine behind.


Either way its always interesting to see games engines being pushed to their limits.




.

[NkEnNy]

Not unlike Arma2, once the third in the series hits us many gamers won't have rigs optimized for it. Seems like a high performance mod using assets already developed for Arma2 would be in demand.

This way you could take advantage of the improved renderer, as well as any easily converted features while quickly releasing a fully functional game.

-k

[Abs]

Personally I don't plan on switching over right away either. I don't have much time these days, and I still have yet to learn things like RVMATs, blah blah blah. I have a project that has its scope, and I plan on achieving all my objectives with this engine. Anything beyond that will have to wait until I'm done catching up with this engine.

Abs

(PS: Shouldn't this be in the AIRIMIA section?)

[Binkowski]

i'm not going over right away.. it'll be like the arma1 -> arma2 switch again. only, in my eyes, it'll probably be more lengthy.

[fludblud]

technology moves on, thats how its always been and like it or not, people will expect the mods to follow suit. imo the new advancements of Arma III should be seen as an opportunity instead of a threat and a chance to expand the ideas behind the mods to their true potential.

i mean, how many of us desperately wished the OFP40K mod was ported into Arma only to be disappointed when its makers steadfastly refuse so because 'OFP is good enough'.

[Dalia]

Legislator;1931761']To be honest ... I wasn't happy when A3 got announced. I created about 60 missions for A2/AO and just started converting my old A1 missions to A2. So when A3 is going to be released I can throw my work away because everyone I know will want to play A3. Years of work for nothing. Guess the only way to avoid this is to skip A3 for a while. I don't want to pay for new hardware anyway. But those are just my problems with the situation, not the fault of BIS or anyone else. So I blame nobody but myself.


And honestly, I'm tired of working on a Mod every day for years, literally doing nothing else besides that with the game just to start over again when the next title is pushed out and then repeat with the next title.

Then, i agree with you, many players take many times for addons and mission, for myself i add many addons in mission for respect the addons maker's works, but for what? for 2 years? it's stupid from BIS, i play since the first day on ofp1, but now maybe you give tools for modding but if it s for make a COD serie and all 2 years give us a buggy games, and when is become no buggy and when we have all a pc for use arma2, you change?

Next arma3 not for me, you now what BIS? wait 2 years more for release arma3 and make a good games, not a games with all times the sames buildings, same trees, same fade colors, it'sz boring after 10 years, we want a NEW games, we are not beta testers. Ah no, you want money for open a new studio again.


I allways supported you, but after the expensive DLC and that, finish for me until you make a real new games. On screen hraphism are just same AO, take a big machines you can take the same screen.

If i buy arma3 because i'm wrong, never i will do another work on it, we loose time, now just play.

[Enad]

Then, i agree with you, many players take many times for addons and mission, for myself i add many addons in mission for respect the addons maker's works, but for what? for 2 years? it's stupid from BIS, i play since the first day on ofp1, but now maybe you give tools for modding but if it s for make a COD serie and all 2 years give us a buggy games, and when is become no buggy and when we have all a pc for use arma2, you change?

Next arma3 not for me, you now what BIS? wait 2 years more for release arma3 and make a good games, not a games with all times the sames buildings, same trees, same fade colors, it'sz boring after 10 years, we want a NEW games, we are not beta testers. Ah no, you want money for open a new studio again.


I allways supported you, but after the expensive DLC and that, finish for me until you make a real new games. On screen hraphism are just same AO, take a big machines you can take the same screen.

If i buy arma3 because i'm wrong, never i will do another work on it, we loose time, now just play.
lol wut.

I don't know what you were saying half the time...but..just because ArmA 3 is coming out 3 years after ArmA 2 doesn't mean it's gonna be bad. 3 years is a very good time span for a game, and it's impressive to see BIS push out such a massive game in that time period.

Also the DLCs weren't expensive, if $10 for a large amount of content counts as expensive to you...get a job.

[W0lle]

Then, i agree with you, many players take many times for addons and mission, for myself i add many addons in mission for respect the addons maker's works, but for what? for 2 years? it's stupid from BIS, i play since the first day on ofp1, but now maybe you give tools for modding but if it s for make a COD serie and all 2 years give us a buggy games, and when is become no buggy and when we have all a pc for use arma2, you change?

Next arma3 not for me, you now what BIS? wait 2 years more for release arma3 and make a good games, not a games with all times the sames buildings, same trees, same fade colors, it'sz boring after 10 years, we want a NEW games, we are not beta testers. Ah no, you want money for open a new studio again.


I allways supported you, but after the expensive DLC and that, finish for me until you make a real new games. On screen hraphism are just same AO, take a big machines you can take the same screen.

If i buy arma3 because i'm wrong, never i will do another work on it, we loose time, now just play.

What your rant has to do with ArmA3 and Mod developement?

[vasmkd]

If bis release mlods for ARMA2 and if portablility isn't going to be a huge issue we would have an awesome situation in ARMA3.
otherwise we just have to move on or continue playing/modding for good old ARMA2 (well call it this when ARMA 3 comes out). It's our choice in the end

[ProfTournesol]

technology moves on, thats how its always been and like it or not, people will expect the mods to follow suit. imo the new advancements of Arma III should be seen as an opportunity instead of a threat and a chance to expand the ideas behind the mods to their true potential.

i mean, how many of us desperately wished the OFP40K mod was ported into Arma only to be disappointed when its makers steadfastly refuse so because 'OFP is good enough'.

But it's up to them if they only wanna work for OFP or ArmA 1 or whatever, because it's true that for some modders who want create (or port in this case) whole world as 40K without years and years of work, OFP is easier and good enough. And fun enough, running well and beautifully enough with some twicks on modern systems.

[Max Power]

There's a good point in here about the wh40k mod. They choose to work in their medium that they are familiar with. But, because ArmA2 or 3 has the capability to use the supershader doesn't mean you have to use it, and because their helicopters use 30,000 polies in LOD also doesn't mean you have to model that many... but what is the risk of not pushing all the way to the bar BIS has established? I see a lot of ported OFP models in ArmA 2.

[Beagle]

We all know giant mods like during OFP-times cant be done anymore, one single tank for ArmA II takes more effort then 50 addons for Operation Flashpoint, mainly due to the texturing.

Big mods like the Invasion 44 couldnt be released for ArmA, instead got ported for ArmA II, and in all likelyhood will be ported again for ArmA III.
Why should Addon makers bother for ArmA III to even start? The time the mod community starts rolling, the next game is due for release anyway.

Look at the addons that have been released, 90% are ArmA I or even OFP ports, or the infamous "Special Forces Reskins".


Is there any way BIS could steer against that? Release more powerful / easier mod tools?That's quite normal and you can see this in all genres...Modmakers often cant keep up with the professionals anymore...and a lot of the professionals started as modmakers.

Every modmakers starts at point blank and can't simply keep up with 15 years of experience. Another problem is that mad often cant keep up with a game that's still developed on....
When I as a user see mods going unfunctional or degrading the game functions after a update I start not bothering for mods anymore quite fast.

[ProfTournesol]

There's a good point in here about the wh40k mod. They choose to work in their medium that they are familiar with. But, because ArmA2 or 3 has the capability to use the supershader doesn't mean you have to use it, and because their helicopters use 30,000 polies in LOD also doesn't mean you have to model that many... but what is the risk of not pushing all the way to the bar BIS has established? I see a lot of ported OFP models in ArmA 2.

But they'll look ugly. And you're only speaking about vehicles, which are the easiest part with buildings.

[Rasa-be]

I feel a bit sorry for all those mod developers that put much time and effort into it. The majority of the community will switch straight away and their work will be either derelict, or they'll have to spend a considerable amound of time and effort into porting them.

As a mod user, I hope that some of A2's key mods make the move swiftly. Take ACRE, which is such an essential gameplay enhancer (so much that I wonder why BIS hasn't just stolen all your work and patched it in), and ACE2 which adds some very good gameplay-enhancing features (The models are cool, but for me it's little things like weapons resting, sight adjustment, the backupsights, the easy ruck system, ballistics that make it into such a great mod (yes even if some of those features have been patched into the game)). These are mods that I would miss when playing a new game.

[rexehuk]

I feel a bit sorry for all those mod developers that put much time and effort into it. The majority of the community will switch straight away and their work will be either derelict, or they'll have to spend a considerable amound of time and effort into porting them.

As a mod user, I hope that some of A2's key mods make the move swiftly. Take ACRE, which is such an essential gameplay enhancer (so much that I wonder why BIS hasn't just stolen all your work and patched it in), and ACE2 which adds some very good gameplay-enhancing features (The models are cool, but for me it's little things like weapons resting, sight adjustment, the backupsights, the easy ruck system, ballistics that make it into such a great mod (yes even if some of those features have been patched into the game)). These are mods that I would miss when playing a new game.

You're forgetting that a lot of the stuff like ACRE is not dependant on anything other than itself really, just a case of patching the new game. As long as the SQF commands etc are all there, it will be a very simple port.

Other mods like ACE2 however rely heavily on base classnames etc etc so causes much more trouble for them.

[Altimeter]

i mean, how many of us desperately wished the OFP40K mod was ported into Arma only to be disappointed when its makers steadfastly refuse so because 'OFP is good enough'.

I did some addons for the Wh40K mod, and I think they look quite good - in OFP. Then I ported one over in ArmA II, just to check it out - It just didnt fit. Textures were ugly, to few polygons / veritices etc.

[fludblud]

I did some addons for the Wh40K mod, and I think they look quite good - in OFP. Then I ported one over in ArmA II, just to check it out - It just didnt fit. Textures were ugly, to few polygons / veritices etc.

well thats the thing, i would rather play a mod that had outdated muddy textures than not being able to play it at all, things like textures could always be updated later. the battlestar galactica mod is half finished and the models for the vipers were straight from OFP but thats still miles better than nothing.

too many modmakers think that moving to a new game requires building it from scratch. it doesnt, porting the main models and gameplay should take priority first, THEN they could begin adding shaders, textures and increasing polygon count. doing that would give the community something to play with earlier and eliminates the horrible possibility that you spend years on a project only to release your masterpiece when a sequel is coming out and nobody would use it.

thanks to the six updater, releasing numerous small updates to a mod is far more easier and fixes tonnes more bugs than releasing one or two humongous updates per year where interest would begin to wane.

[[GLT] Legislator]

lol wut.

I don't know what you were saying half the time...but..just because ArmA 3 is coming out 3 years after ArmA 2 doesn't mean it's gonna be bad. 3 years is a very good time span for a game, and it's impressive to see BIS push out such a massive game in that time period.

Also the DLCs weren't expensive, if $10 for a large amount of content counts as expensive to you...get a job.

ArmA I was released in 2006, ArmA II in 2009 ... and what did we get? It took at least one more year until ArmA II was "playable", although I agree that might be a very subjective term. However there were a lot of issues even until the release of Operation Arrowhead. In its current state ArmA II is far from being final from my point of view, but at least its playable now so I'm happy I can stick with it for a while.

A few days ago I bought ArmA II Reinforcements and hell ... I couldn't even install it at first due to a bugged installer on the DVD :rolleyes: People can say whatever they want, but I fear the worst for the next game release. Give it at least one more year of developement. 3 years seem to be to few for a game in such a scale. I can feel the shitstorm over me, but everyone should really focus on the first impressions of ArmA II which are really awesome.

Anyway, I hope I'm wrong. This community deserves a perfect game at the release day.

Regarding A2/AO content I wish there would be an "import button". :p I just want to continue playing on Sahrani, Chernarus & Co in ArmA III. I totally accept that old content won't have no features. However the configs could be automaticly rewritten by an installer if previous BIS games are recognized during the installation progress. But at the end I think we will have to wait for CAA2 or something like that.

[rikjuuh]

As a mod user, I hope that some of A2's key mods make the move swiftly. Take ACRE, which is such an essential gameplay enhancer (so much that I wonder why BIS hasn't just stolen all your work and patched it in), and ACE2 which adds some very good gameplay-enhancing features (The models are cool, but for me it's little things like weapons resting, sight adjustment, the backupsights, the easy ruck system, ballistics that make it into such a great mod (yes even if some of those features have been patched into the game)). These are mods that I would miss when playing a new game.

why doesn't BIS just put these mods in Arma 3?

[STALKERGB]

To be honest, it doesn't bother me. I can't imagine there will be too much extra to add with things like PhysX and what not.

I still remember having my infantry in ARMA2 the day it was released, admittedly they weren't working perfectly but they were in game. (There was the dreaded arm twisting problem with the new anims). It only took a couple hours work to get them working, and our mod community seems pretty clever so I don't think we will have much trouble when ARMA3 is out.

To be fair compared to OPF there is more stuff to do with any mod, as people have said though, it can be overcome if there are sample models/tutorials about.

Anyway, I guess we will have to wait and see...

EDIT: Also I don't know what is with all this doom and gloom about A3? I for one am very excited about it!

[drmidnight]

This is something that was inevitable. They were bound to make a new game sometime....

As for large addons, it shouldn't be too time consuming to adapt them for Arma III unless there are major changes to the config side of things. Most of the mods have decent models that would look just fine in Arma 3, it's not like OFP>Arma where the poly count and texture res was way too low. I don't really see the issue.

I for one can't wait to see how the new game will be pushed.

[PuFu]

it seems that the ones who are "afraid" (to quote the title) aren't even the actual...modders/addon makers...weird isn't it? (wolle doesn't count, he is just unhappy since he needs to buy a new whip every other day)

[Max Power]

But they'll look ugly. And you're only speaking about vehicles, which are the easiest part with buildings.

I wasn't only speaking about vehicles.

And ugly is not the word. They will look less rich- and they will look weird beside other very rich objects.

[[GLT] Legislator]

it seems that the ones who are "afraid" (to quote the title) aren't even the actual...modders/addon makers...weird isn't it? (wolle doesn't count, he is just unhappy since he needs to buy a new whip every other day)

Meaning what?

[Zipper5]

Moving to the Arma 3 section.

And to throw in my opinion: just like Arma 2 and ArmA before it, people will be freaking out over the next few weeks about what they absolutely hate about Arma 3 and how it will kill the community. Then it will calm down for a long time. Then new and cool information will be released as to what Arma 3 will feature, and the mood will pick up. Finally, Arma 3 will be released, people will buy it, play it, and then complain for a few weeks about how things aren't what they were expecting, or how porting stuff is too difficult. People will get all worked up and leave, and then once more, things will settle down.

And frankly, those remaining will be enjoying what sounds to be a great game.

tl;dr - no different to the announcement of any other game with a strong community.

[AstroMan]

Moving to the Arma 3 section.

And to throw in my opinion: just like Arma 2 and ArmA before it, people will be freaking out over the next few weeks about what they absolutely hate about Arma 3 and how it will kill the community. Then it will calm down for a long time. Then new and cool information will be released as to what Arma 3 will feature, and the mood will pick up. Finally, Arma 3 will be released, people will buy it, play it, and then complain for a few weeks about how things aren't what they were expecting, or how porting stuff is too difficult. People will get all worked up and leave, and then once more, things will settle down.

And frankly, those remaining will be enjoying what sounds to be a great game.

tl;dr - no different to the announcement of any other game with a strong community.

thats the most sensible and true thing someone has said so far.

[Flash Thunder]

It's a fact that development takes way too long if you want bug free and decent models. As ArmA2 was released we were barely ready with CWR1, and by the look of it it will be the same when A3 is going to be released.

And honestly, I'm tired of working on a Mod every day for years, literally doing nothing else besides that with the game just to start over again when the next title is pushed out and then repeat with the next title.

I feel your guys pain but what else is BIS going to do? They have to make money and the engine has to keep evolving to appeal to more people.

Big projects like yours I think will become rare and we will only see mods like Islands/weapons/and skins like we do now instead of giant gameplay and featuresets.

[ProfTournesol]

I wasn't only speaking about vehicles.

And ugly is not the word. They will look less rich- and they will look weird beside other very rich objects.

Yes, ugly or less rich, is not that far away. Porting infantry is much harder, considering the animations. But anyway, if someone want a Napoleonic or Wh40K mod in ArmA2 or 3, they just have to learn and make it by themselves, instead of waiting for old members to do it for them. But that's a wishful thinking i'm afraid.

[wolfbite]

TO be honest I'm glad if addons have to be totally made from scratch for this... It will hopefully mean major improvements in the engine.. I always viewed it as its easy to port over old stuff it means not much has changed...

[W0lle]

TO be honest I'm glad if addons have to be totally made from scratch for this... It will hopefully mean major improvements in the engine.. I always viewed it as its easy to port over old stuff it means not much has changed...

Yeah it's soooo easy to port old stuff over. That means that all the big Mods which are in development since years are full of lazy bummers. You obviously have no idea what it means to properly port an addon over even from the previous Engine (A1), not to mention OFP content.


Legislator;1933063']Meaning what?
Hard to describe, you need to join us to get an idea. :D

[Max Power]

Yes, ugly or less rich, is not that far away. Porting infantry is much harder, considering the animations. But anyway, if someone want a Napoleonic or Wh40K mod in ArmA2 or 3, they just have to learn and make it by themselves, instead of waiting for old members to do it for them. But that's a wishful thinking i'm afraid.

There's nothing to do about the animations, and rigging, unfortunately. However, the point I was making is that the developer can choose what they want to do with the visual style and technology they wish to use. Footmunch's F-16 wasn't ugly in ArmA. I'm not sure if the port to ArmA 2 has supershaders or not.

It is quite unlikely that a mod maker would pass up the opportunity to use new and exciting technologies.

But I think the point is that I seem to recall addons not using the supershader not really being decried for their visual style in the early days of ArmA2.

[Pathetic_Berserker]

Grr, I realy don't want to complain about the release of A3, as it is a good thing and the Mod community will survive it. But unfortunately the negative comments in this thread are all too true. I remember being part of the Australia Isle map when it was basicaly killed by the A2 announcement. And it seemed to me that activity in the mod sector fell off a bit with the A2 release. It would be sad to see the trend continue, but I think it will.
Not that community content wil cease, but I think there will be less of it, and fewer big mods.

And given the small amount of time I have for the hobby I don't think I will be tempted to do any more for ArmA after I finish my current project.

I think Altimeter hit the nail on the head with this question;

Is there any way BIS could steer against that? Release more powerful / easier mod tools?

It brought to mind some of the ground community members have broken over the years with O2 or mission editing, that should have been embraced by BIS but instead have been (or will be) left to become defunct while the actual BIS tools are little better than the OFP release.

[Innomadic]

Are we all aware that Arma 3 is a long way off still, that we don't know details of its inner workings yet and know nothing about mod conversion?

Chillax guys, get worked up when you find something to really get upset over, like details.

[Rip31st]

FOW is in the middle of producing a huge mod for ArmA2 - probably the largest in many ways. We will finish what we started. When ArmA3 rolls out, we will adapt it to ArmA3. It will take some work, but no doubt, we will make it work. We look forward to it.

So to answer your question. 'Afraid' -No.

[Chortles]

why doesn't BIS just put these mods in Arma 3?Because they'd hurt the modmakers' feelings at being rendered redundant? :p

In all seriousness, some players have voiced elsewhere that the engine seems to hold some of these features back from being possible, and as I've said elsewhere -- better to have these features/potential with the addons starting from scratch, than to be able to port on the addons but the engine continuing to be limited by or for the sake of "legacy mode / backwards compatibility."

Therefore, I'm seconding what wolfbite said:
TO be honest I'm glad if addons have to be totally made from scratch for this... It will hopefully mean major improvements in the engine..For example, true weapon customization and not "every weapon/accessory combination is its own weapon/class name in the engine."

[Nicholas]

I am, I've noticed that the addons keep getting less and less in quantity and quality. OFP had a TON of awesome, fun, and quality addons. ArmA not so many, ArmA 2 not as much as ArmA 1, and ArmA 2 OA not as much as ArmA 2.

BIS is killing the modding community by releasing games with the same schedule Activision uses for COD.

[drmidnight]

I am, I've noticed that the addons keep getting less and less in quantity and quality. OFP had a TON of awesome, fun, and quality addons. ArmA not so many, ArmA 2 not as much as ArmA 1, and ArmA 2 OA not as much as ArmA 2.

BIS is killing the modding community by releasing games with the same schedule Activision uses for COD.

I'd say a good 80% of addons that come out these days are quality mods. Sure not on par with the quantity of OFP mods but there is still a lot of great quality mods out and plenty more coming soon.

[Damu]

We'd be against ourselves if it is completely incompatible.
We appreciate and welcome all the great stuff from community.
However, we would like to move on...
Our goal is to make porting as much easy as possible.
Of course, feel free to stay in Chernarus/Takistan if you want to. :)

[lozz08]

I'll be interested to see how the creation of physics assets for the physx simulation goes. BIS are talking about an overhaul of the animation system. Integration with physics would mean a lot of screwing around to get things looking right in game.

[Big Dawg KS]

BIS is killing the modding community by releasing games with the same schedule Activision uses for COD.

BIS is doing what they must. They need money to keep operating, and the way to do that is to sell games. Obviously they aren't going to jeopardize their own business just to give community members more time to make addons. Don't forget that they use that profit to continue adding new features and support the community; which does not financially benefit them.

To compare BIS to Activision is insulting. BIS still tries very hard to support the community and our modding efforts. Having been around this community as long as I have, I can say that BIS is definately not killing the community.

While I agree that the quality has diminished, I know BIS is not at fault. Rather, I blame the community itself. How many mods have I seen fall apart from internal disagreements and lack of interest/time?

[PuFu]

Legislator;1933063']Meaning what?
Meaning that unless you actually do it yourself, you have no way to understand what it takes, even for a port over (which some believe it is so easy to do)

[Dalia]

We'd be against ourselves if it is completely incompatible.
We appreciate and welcome all the great stuff from community.
However, we would like to move on...
Our goal is to make porting as much easy as possible.
Of course, feel free to stay in Chernarus/Takistan if you want to. :)

Thanks for the answer it's already better, less afraid now you ll kill the modding with games all 2 years.

[[GLT] Legislator]

Meaning that unless you actually do it yourself, you have no way to understand what it takes, even for a port over (which some believe it is so easy to do)

Well then you can be relaxed as I understand what time and effort it takes not just to port something but to create something new.

[InstaGoat]

What I hope is that A3 will bring fresh blood into the modding community. Some modders are veterans ranging back into the OFP days, and I completely understand if some of them are tired of having to constantly abandon work and switch over to a new engine.

I think it won´t kill the modding scene per se, but for established mods like P85, CSLA, CWR or I44, it´ll make things difficult. You either have to stick with A2 and hope that people keep the game despite of A3 being out, or you have to use immense resources to port, which I understand now is actually a very difficult job.

So yes, scores of new modders would be nice. Though I dunno if the current generation of gamer even has the nerve and patience to mod a complex game such as Arma.

[zoog]

BIS is killing the modding community by releasing games with the same schedule Activision uses for COD.
Why always these kind of BS facts on the internet?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_of_duty

CoD/MW games get a new instalment every year (12 months). ArmA 2 was released in the summer of 2009 and ArmA 3 won't be in stores before summer 2012 (maybe even later if it gets delayed). So at leasts a gap of 3 years (36 months). What do you expect from a company that makes games? To just wait for 6 years while bills need to be paid?

3~4 year lifecycle is very very very reasonable.

[NodUnit]

That and they aren't killing the modding community, nothing is forcing the community to move to A3 and there was no major movement for A2 until a few patches in.

Aside from necessary documentation and experimentation to make addons compatible with the next game, if anything each game offers more opportunities with the added functions and coding.

[Innomadic]

Why always these kind of BS facts on the internet?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Call_of_duty

CoD/MW games get a new instalment every year (12 months). ArmA 2 was released in the summer of 2009 and ArmA 3 won't be in stores before summer 2012 (maybe even later if it gets delayed). So at leasts a gap of 3 years (36 months). What do you expect from a company that makes games? To just wait for 6 years while bills need to be paid?

Theoretically its every 2 years as they alternate between IW and Treyarch....however as they use the same tech everytime (and claim it to be their own) this point is relatively moot.

[dale0404]

Everyone must admit that BIS support the modding community, hands down.

But also, its all about the money. Like the man said, stay on Chernarus / Takistan if you want. I certainly will not be deleting OFP / Arma 1 / Arma 2 from my computer when Arma 3 gets released.

[Richey79]

It would be really interesting to see the proportion of the following:

- Modders who started on OFP and stayed with the series.
- Modders who started on OFP and have dropped out because of life changes / increasing complexity of Bis' series.
- Modders who started on Armed Assault and stayed with the series.
- Modders who started on Armed Assault and have dropped out because of life changes / increasing complexity of Bis' series ... you get the picture.

What I'm trying to get at is - how healthy is the modding community? Are people starting to mod OA (and making progress quickly enough to keep them at it) in great enough numbers to make up for those long-time modders who have dropped out, and those who will drop out when Arma 3 hits.

Mind you, this isn't really either Bis' concern or something they can do anything (much) about.

[Innomadic]

It would be really interesting to see the proportion of the following:

- Modders who started on OFP and stayed with the series.
- Modders who started on OFP and have dropped out because of life changes / increasing complexity of Bis' series.
- Modders who started on Armed Assault and stayed with the series.
- Modders who started on Armed Assault and have dropped out because of life changes / increasing complexity of Bis' series ... you get the picture.

What I'm trying to get at is - how healthy is the modding community? Are people starting to mod OA (and making progress quickly enough to keep them at it) in great enough numbers to make up for those long-time modders who have dropped out, and those who will drop out when Arma 3 hits.

Mind you, this isn't really either Bis' concern or something they can do anything (much) about.

Wouldn't a modder have some degree of acceptance that at some point the game they are working on will be replaced by an improved version? Surely modders can't expect Arma 2 to last for time eternal?

[7-75 Callaghan]

Some good points in this thread but at the end of the day. ArmA 3 is coming, it offers a more complex engine, and that is where the community will be. The community needs to adapt to the changing situation, like they say you have to go forwards just to stay in the same place.

A good start would be a greater deal of collaboration and less petty competition and 'ownership', i'm not saying the mod community should be a communist regime, and I appreciate that it is one of the closest and most productive mod communities out there, but so many man hours are wasted on 'lesser' mods, pointless addons that we already have 100 different versions of (yes I appreciate that people will make only what they want to), but we would all benefit from mod teams coming together to help each other out. We really don't need more than one ww2 mod based around the western front, people choose the best one, and leave the others for a 'bit of messing around in the editor'. Think about how much better your favourite mod would be if its rivals came together to collaborate on one big project, actually released it on time, and had the manpower to support it after.

At the same time, a bit of healthy competition is always good, but I strongly believe that 90% of the problems of having an increasingly complex engine could be dealt with by the community organising itself a little better.

[[FRL]Myke]

From my point of view, there are a view things BIS is obliged to do to make sure that the modding scene doesn't break away:

- the game has to be as bug free as possible.
- included stuff like modules has to work without problems in SP aswell as in MP
- BIWIKI has to be up to date at release day

About "bugfree":
I know pretty well, absolutely no bugs isn't possible. But that's not the request. Just look back at previous releases how many bugs (even gamebreaking bugs) were present. Only exception was Operation Arrowhead.
Even today, ArmA 2 CO isn't free of serious bugs (just check the CIT). If ArmA 3 will hit the shelves with similar bug density as ArmA 2 had on release, i'm sure a lot of modders/mission makers will just leave frustrated.

About the BIWIKI:
This should really get a high priority. With every new game, things were getting more complex. Back in OFP, things could be figured out by the community in a reasonable timeframe but the more the RV engine evolves, the more features are built in, the more time it takes to figure out how things work.
So IMHO, every developer should spend one hour per week to update/expand/improve the BIWIKI, ideally that at release every technical aspect that could be of any interest for modder/missionmaker is available and up to date. This way, everyone can start right off, not spending countless hours in investigating & researching how things have to be done to work correctly.

And please, no arguments like "hey, this is how it worked back in OFP", this isn't OFP anymore.

[ProfTournesol]

Myke;1935346']Back in OFP, things could be figured out by the community in a reasonable timeframe but the more the RV engine evolves, the more features are built in, the more time it takes to figure out how things work.



Myke;1935346']And please, no arguments like "hey, this is how it worked back in OFP", this isn't OFP anymore.

Hehe ;)

[i3luevein]

I am actually looking forward to learning ARMA 3 changes to configs and possible new named parts to models.

BI tools 2 at the moment works great for me putting addons into ARMA2. If I need to do any serious model work then I use my own tools that I purchased and import them in to O2.

So personally as people have already mentioned, no I'm not afraid what ArmA III is going to do to the addons scene! I'm looking forward to some kick ass mods that people will continue to make ;)

[PuFu]

i fully agree with Myke on this one. BIKI is, in 99% of the cases updated by members of this very community, and that is when they figure out, the hard way, the way things work. It has nothing to do with A3, but its sort of a direction that BIS seems to be taken.

BIS is aware that the longevity of the game is based on its community, but they haven't helped much with providing the information needed: updated information, as well as some sort of simple samples/proof of work..I know it is low on their priority list, but the community can do as much by themselves before they hit the wall

[Ebolavirus]

i really think the release of A3 will re-inspire some of the hardcore modders here. i think bis cant really take the risk the community can with mods, there is a higher level of expectation from everyone. but to say modders will become disenfranchised doesn't really sit with me. Whatever is brought to the table will be positive for everyone.

on Pufus note, the level of documentation is atrocious. ffs just employ an eager temp for 3-6mths on a part-time basis to collate it all and put it up

[Hoot1988]

I used to do bits with the Star Gate mod before I went to uni. It was all getting good before ArmA I was released but all the coding had to be re-written for the new engine. ArmA I passed by with alpha releases until they began to port to ArmA II which has been the same, so I can understand what many have been saying.


OFPs 5 years of life was perfect for the engine, shame we couldn't get 5 years out of ArmA II. Oh well.

[Innomadic]

OFPs 5 years of life was perfect for the engine, shame we couldn't get 5 years out of ArmA II. Oh well.

Perhaps this was due to A2's faggotry regarding bugs and performance issues that they are trying to get it right the first time with A3?

[wolfbite]

Yeah it's soooo easy to port old stuff over. That means that all the big Mods which are in development since years are full of lazy bummers. You obviously have no idea what it means to properly port an addon over even from the previous Engine (A1), not to mention OFP content.


Hard to describe, you need to join us to get an idea. :D

Ooops sorry I didnt mean to say its easy... I realise its not easy to port over from the older games. And I totally appreciate the immense amounts of time people put into transfering these across. But It will mean not much has changed in the backround of the game if you know what I mean.. To use an extreme example compare Original red alert to red alert 3... There are still general things that apply to both units but red alert 3 is far more sophisticated....

[wamingo]

The development costs of John Romero's Daikatana went from expected 3mil to about $30mil or something similarly stupid, largely because of refitting the game from the quake1 engine to quake2.
That was about a decade ago. And they got paid.

[InstaGoat]

I think there will be new people coming in with Arma 3, but there´ll be not as many people as before in total, and the scene probably won´t last as long for several reasons.

Firstly, increased complexity of developing addons in a time where people have less and less spare time on their hands to fully dedicate to time consuming mod work. Especially when the work is so time consuming and comprehensive that development time for mods isn´t in the range of months or a single year, but multiple years unless a large amount of people get together... and even THEN, mod work is slow. It´s either that, or low quality.

Secondly, the lack of documentation, which has been named as a problem by several members of this community before. I´ve barely scraped the surface, but for example, I couldn´t even figure out how to do reskins from the info that was available on the biki and elsewhere.

Lastly, general short-livedness of games in this day and age. People buy a title, play the campaign, play the missions, and unless they immediately get drawn by the community, ditch the game after a comparatively short time of about two or three months.

People NEED to be aware of the existence of this community, RIGHT AWAY WHEN GETTING THE GAME. This is important, otherwise a lot of people won´t even know that there is more to A3 than just the basic content it´s delivered with, and a fancy, complex and probably again, poorly documented mission editor. We have to rely on third parties, such as Mr. Murrays editing bible, to learn how to use the Editor. This should not be!

To sustain and revive the modding scene once A3 kicks off, modding has to be made easier in general, more easy to get into by means of comprehensive documentation, and quicker by simplifying config work or similar things.

My two cents.

[wolfbite]

Yeah I must say the lack of serious documentation or tutorials makes things very hard..... I mean I started trying to make a new addon for ArmAII (AFter dropping Ka-50 I made for OFP) and found I was still being sent to the Colonel Kling learjet tutorial that was never finished.... Still there are so many things that are ridiculously hard to find info about.

E.G making the control panels work, Making landing gear compress on landing etc.... You have to swim through a lot of outdated and stuff that just plain leads onto something else.

But there are always going to be people who will mod this... and there will always be new people to learn.... So I dont think the mod community will. die...

[metalcraze]

Perhaps this was due to A2's faggotry regarding bugs and performance issues that they are trying to get it right the first time with A3?

Have you played OFP :j:

Because even on 2011-level PCs it still has heavy FPS drops

[Zipper5]

Because even on 2011-level PCs it still has heavy FPS drops
That's because it isn't coded to take advantage of modern hardware architecture.

A better example to use for this would have been the state of OFP at release... Which those who were around at the time, I'd imagine, can testify to perhaps even being worse than Armed Assault's launch state. :o

No matter what state BIS' games are at release, you are guaranteed they will support the game many times longer than your average developer these days.

[mic1402]

Myke;1935346']
And please, no arguments like "hey, this is how it worked back in OFP", this isn't OFP anymore.

This is the problem i had. i tried modding for arma2/co. but I gave up. there is hardly any information about anything, and it is quite hard to get started.
the best tut's i found where:

1. a 12 year old OFP tut(!)
2. gnats video tuts.

the Biki has basically nothing as it is filled with outdated info.

[4 IN 1]

OFP=> A1: the difference between engine version is so big that all things ended up having to comepetely redo
A1=>A2: the difference is still big that most things ended up having major overhaul inorder to work properly

I don't think that things will change much this time around.

[VictorFarbau]

Ahhh bad news are always good news aren't they :) Well, have faith brother; if people really want to get some stuff ported it will happen. Plus, a few things also went through the community to be completed in A2.

I for one can very well live with the addons provided by BIS if I had to (except for the sounds, different story :) ). The big fun for me in this game is the addition of tactics, landscape and freedom. Whether some enemy units 800m down the road are in camouflage or desert paint, I don't mind.

I created a huge MP mission in OFP already. But i put all variables (object and city positions, airport locations and runway characteristics) into a separate file. When migrating to A1 and later to A2 (Chernarus) I just changed the file and some addon class names to be spawned. In a matter of 10 min the mission was back up, usually a lot bigger and even better than before. So A3, here I come.

Stay positive, it's a game after all - AND YOU MUST WIN! :D

VictorFarbau

[hmmwv]

I´m 3D/2D artist and I´ve been working in the videogame industry for years. Said this, from my point of view, I think Oxygen is one of the most frustrating and unintuitive tools I have ever seen in a while.
If BI don´t release import/export plugins for MAJOR 3D packages (I mean Max, Maya, Modo...) and a proper documentation, the mod scene will grow up even more slowly than in Arma/Arma 2.

[Scubbo]

thanks all the mod devs and mission makers out there! you make the bis games worth playing beyond a day :-) !