Adopt Valhalla or other C&H as the basic PvP form and set up some Official servers

[walker]

Hi all

A suggestion to BIS.

I made this suggestion to both Zaphod about Berzerk and later to those at Dao involved in Vallhala. That they aproach BIS to include their Capture and Hold PvP form as standard with vanila ArmA so that new players have a more understandable entry into the complexity of a game with unlimited game forms.

And that BIS could also set up some official servers to guide user into ArmA's complex MP world.

Concept
Provide BIS and ArmA III with a Multi Player launch platform in the form of a Valhalla like C&H.

The problem
Multi Player in ArmA is not performing to its optimum, this is because ArmA being perceived as a purely coop game and not as an open system capable of any Multi Player (MP) game form. This is turning off people who might buy ArmA, deterring some buyers of ArmA from being repeat customers and decreasing existing customer satisfaction.

Weakness in the current multi player offering in ArmA II.
A quick perusal of the MP section of the BIS forums will show three main weaknesses in the ArmA multi player offerings.

1)Numerous threads complaining how hard it is to play MP in ArmA
2)Multiple threads bemoaning the lack of Player v Player (PvP) and Team V Team (TvT) game forms.
3)Frequent complaints about the lack of an official ArmA game form and lack of direction compared to ArmA's competitors.

Weakness 1 Ease of entry
The first of these perceptions is a valid one and its causes are:
a)The standard multi player browser while being very customisable does not default to number of players with highest at the top; rather it defaults to ping. This is wrong and needs fixing! As the default view of new players is servers with no one on them. This is because the lowest pings are those that are network wise right next to the user i.e. client servers in the local geographical area and with those lowest client count. Thus they occupy all the top pages of servers in default view. This leads many people on initial view to wrongly assume that: no one is playing ArmA in multi player and they go no further.
b)Many servers run addons. These make it impossible for new players to join since they have to learn the somewhat complex concepts of addons and mods before they can play.

Weakness 2 Preconceptions
The second perception is down principally to peoples previous experience:
a)New players concepts of how to play MP are built on their experience of MP in games they have already played hence their asking for Death Match (DM) and Team Death Match (TDM) and Capture The Flag (CTF).
b)In fact each of these game forms exist in ArmA but those operating the servers run around like a headless chickens with little organisation pulling in different directions and or offering concepts that are old and stale and where ArmA just copies a game form that is the same as all it competitors, this just increases the comparisons to competitors offerings. And whether ArmA is better or worse than these games the negative comparisons are the ones that will be pursued as the owners of those concepts and ideas are psychologically invested in them. This is a cycle that needs to be broken.

Weakness 3 Leadership
Once a player gets on a server they do not know what they are doing. They are, as the saying goes “Crying out for leadership” lost in a wilderness of addons, new game forms and a free environment where anything can and does happen. This frightens them at deep level. Very few people are capable of or prepared to explore new environments. While the concept of ArmA being an open sandbox is easy for BIS veterans to understand that is not what 99% of gamers have experience of. In order to expand and survive BIS need to serve these customers with an entry level until more gamers “Get” the totally unheard of concept of freedom in a game.

The Solution.
To run official Valhalla like C&H server(s)

Valhalla
Valhalla is a user made game form, often found on public servers. Battles tend to last one hour and are fought over geographic location or zones such as towns or radio towers or airfields or other strategic objectives.

Popularity
Valhalla is already easily the most popular Player v Player (PvP) and Team V Team (TvT) game form in ArmA. It is fully capable of running 120 player missions on current ArmA. 60 player servers are common and often full.
Fully tested and already running!
Valhalla is a fully tested and already running game form and it would be simple to add the ability to include runing scoring statistics. This means minimal work to put out the product and it can be introduced in time for the ArmA III release.

Dealing with ArmA's MP weaknesses
A Valhalla is an ideal product to deal with ArmA's weaknesses as it is built on ArmA's strength of freedom.
1.Players in a Valhalla like C&H may roam freely around the map with no invisible borders
2.Players in a Valhalla like C&H Have the freedom take on any of the all arms roles from officer to medic to sniper to fire team leader to tank to air support to IFV to indirect fire to platoon.
3.Players are free to use anything in the environment from weapons, to buildings to vehicles

Negating Weakness 1 Ease of entry
1.Valhalla runs on vanilla ArmA II and would work the same in ArmA III. So no addons needs. Valhalla is simply join and play.
2.For new ArmA players, Valhalla eases their entry into what is for many new players is a very daunting game. They are presented with simple choose weapons, and spawn location interface, the objectives are laid out and scoring is simple capture and hold zones for lots of points, kill enemy for additional points.
3.There may be an argument for making three or so official servers sticky at the top of the browser. Say one for each major continent. More if required but start with three.

Negating Weakness 2 Preconceptions
Preconceptions are a strength to established products in a market place, they provide both a barrier to entry to new products and inbuilt training in the form of foreknowledge for any product; from games to cars.

You do not need to learn much when you drive a new car. The pedals and steering wheel are always in the same place, but when you buy a new car you expect new bells and whistles you expect your ego to be boosted by the idea of you getting something that is distinguished from the previous products and that is better than what went before.

You do not want to throw this baby out with bath water in presenting a new product, but you do want to distinguish your product from your competitors and then use that to penetrate into both their markets and new markets. Better still you want to move playing field to new preconceptions you create and can guard so as to exclude your competitors:
1.Breaking the cycle of DM, TDM and CTF being the only PvP game forms is primarily dealt with by giving people an easy to understand superior replacement. It has to mimic the previous forms so that learning it is easy but feel better so that people feel they are not just being sold the old stuff in new packaging.
2.By providing a new ArmA only PvP and TvT game form we reduce the ground on which to make a direct comparison with competitor products and create new ground which their technology can not operate on. Thus turning the preconception advantage of older products against those competitors to ArmA by shifting the ground over which ArmA and its competitors compete; to ArmA's favour. This then forces the competitors to play catchup.

Valhalla like C&H Works as both a PvP and TvT game form.
1)For PvP Valhalla can be dipped into and out of and thus fits in with the short periods of time some game players can devote to gaming. Its scoring method could be adapted to allow monitoring of single player achievement in league tables which many players think are important.
2)For TvT Valhalla
2.1.Is built on the concept of sides and can support up to three sides.
2.2.Has inbuilt team creation functions for fire teams.
2.3.Would be an easy form to run league or cup or challenge matches from.

Negating Weakness 3 Leadership
By providing official servers with an official game form BIS take on the role of leadership that those new to the community need. Valhalla like C&H Provides a base and safety net from which new ArmA players can explore the freedom ArmA offers in MP.

Advertising and marketing

Method
1.Official Server(s) act as another news item on which to base news articles and generate publicity.
2.Any official server acts as a rallying flag for the existing community and automatically acts as a method of raising the profile of ArmA III.
3.Future competitions and league results act as continuing news items on which to base news articles and generate publicity and maintain BIS's profile.

Branding
A brand name like Valhalla is an ideal branding name as it is a single word with with known connotations; that puts across concepts of battle and glory acting as an attractant to those who have played the shorter PvP game forms

Requirements
Implementation is relatively simple it is just a matter of BIS providing an official server(s) with ArmA III and a Valhalla like C&H installed

Software
ArmA III dedicated server.
Valhalla like C&H Mission pbo files
MY SQL for scoring

Physical
MP servers
A website server to hold league tables and run chalenge cup advertising

Personnel
People to act as Server administrators.
Some one to produce materials for competitions and act as contact point for media.

Kind Regards walker

[Celery]

Lol. Didn't the maker of Valhalla make the mission's scripts unreadable? Really good way to get the developers of an open editing environment make a mission officially supported.

[Przemek_kondor]

The idea makes sense to me, but I would choose AAS which is less popular but it has better support (I would say proffesional support) it's not closed (what Celery mentioned) and it's... less brainless IMHO.

[Dysta]

The simple meaning of "Easy-Learn-With-Fun-of-ARMA3-MP-Instruction-and-Survival-Manual-24/7" from your concept. ARMA does really lacks of learn-to-adapt sessions for every players no matter experienced with other FPS games or not. The adaption and practice is really necessary for every newcomers, in case they will have idea whey are they doing in multiplayer.

[Celery]

Oh, and you probably haven't been keeping up with the times because CTF and DM are played only occasionally and TDM is pretty much non-existent in Arma 2. It's obvious that you hate those game modes because you think that people need to grow out of them, but the truth is that they're just rulesets how to win a competitive mission, and some people simply like them.

It's funny that you advocate a mission type where everyone is free to buy what they want with imbalanced prices and head off to capture any zone at all, effectively negating the effect that the player amount would have in a traditional CTF of AAS game.

Finally, Valhalla isn't C&H; it's sector control. In C&H you take flags and hold them, SC is the zone taking variant.

[.kju [PvPscene]]

Both Berzerk and Valhalla have questionable history and authors. Especially Valhalla.
Their code obscurity has a reason. BIF admins are aware of it.

Of course public server admins don't care about such "minor" details, yet BI has to.
It would be a very bad idea from BI to use this.

What is surprising that you walker don't care either.

[walker]

Hi Celery

As I said Valhalla is popular but as I said the most important thing is that it easy to understand while it also makes use of the factors in ArmA that diferentiate ArmA from the mass of geographicaly limited TDM, CTF, and AAS corridor and shoebox shooters.

Eg the variety of weapon platforms and the freedom it gives.

Kind Regards walker

[Zipper5]

Their code obscurity has a reason. BIF admins are aware of it.
Say what?

[Avgeris]

Oh, and you probably haven't been keeping up with the times because CTF and DM are played only occasionally and TDM is pretty much non-existent in Arma 2. It's obvious that you hate those game modes because you think that people need to grow out of them, but the truth is that they're just rulesets how to win a competitive mission, and some people simply like them.

It's funny that you advocate a mission type where everyone is free to buy what they want with imbalanced prices and head off to capture any zone at all, effectively negating the effect that the player amount would have in a traditional CTF of AAS game.

Finally, Valhalla isn't C&H; it's sector control. In C&H you take flags and hold them, SC is the zone taking variant.


I couldn't agree more +1
plus the way this maps are played leave no room for clanwars

[.kju [PvPscene]]

@<hidden> Zipper5

Ask W0lle or Dwarden.

---------- Post added at 08:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 PM ----------

@<hidden> walker

Have you ever played AAS?

---------- Post added at 09:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 PM ----------

That said walker makes some fair points.

Valhalla is certainly no good idea as a base. Nor is any mission that goes for as high player
count as possible for many reasons. I think official servers is also not necessary.

What is are strong PvP game modes shipped with the game. OFP was very popular in PvP
and due to the issues since a1 has lot of its player base and potential customer base.

[SpetS15]

I dont like PvP in ArmA2, I preffer MP Coop. its because its almost imposible to see a "camper" or locate a sniper half a mile away, is really frustrating and boring to die over and over to respawn 10thousand miles away from objective. not to mention when someone takes a bradley with thermal vision, my god! I have played PvP AAS Mode many times, when both teams are using conventional weapons, no thermal, or armor vehicles, its fun, you can kill someone, you can do objectives, and some CQB/mid range firefights. I dont see any problem with the scenarios or the character movements in that case. Anyway, for scenarios should be no porblem to make a custom one.

[walker]

@<hidden> Zipper5

Ask W0lle or Dwarden.

---------- Post added at 08:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 PM ----------

@<hidden> walker

Have you ever played AAS?

---------- Post added at 09:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 PM ----------

That said walker makes some fair points.

Valhalla is certainly no good idea as a base. Nor is any mission that goes for as high player
count as possible for many reasons. I think official servers is also not necessary.

What is are strong PvP game modes shipped with the game. OFP was very popular in PvP
and due to the issues since a1 has lot of its player base and potential customer base.

Hi all

Yes I have played AAS it is too like the Shoe Box and Corridor games of ArmA's competitors it limits ArmA rather than building on ArmA's strengths.

ArmA needs to diferentiate it self from its old fashioned competitors by highlighting what it does that is different.

The most popular PvP form in ArmA is the C&H and it is perfectly amenable to leauges.

Valhalla is perfect for Team Play, comunities and Leagues. In fact it is already set up for teams.

I think official servers are key to breaking the market as it gives direction for new players, as I pointed out in the first post. It also places BIS finger on the pulse of the MP community so that it understands how it is working.

Kind Regards walker

[.kju [PvPscene]]

AAS is no Shoe Box and Corridor game mode walker.
It has small to large mission - even bigger scale as Berzerk and Valhalla.
Maybe you need to revise your research?

AAS Missions Overview [PvPscene] (http://pvpscene.net/wiki/doku.php?id=english:game_modes:advance_and_secure:aas_missions_overview)

[Smookie]

Valhalla is perfect for Team Play, comunities and Leagues. In fact it is already set up for teams.

What?

[[DirTyDeeDs]-Ziggy-]

For once, i have to support Walkers premise, that some PvP mission like he described come with the official vanilla release.
At the very least, it could potentially add another BIS mission template with which the community can work off of, and at best, create more interest from new or returning customers.

[GossamerSolid]

Their code obscurity has a reason. BIF admins are aware of it.

I do not support mission devs that think their code is soooo good that they have gone out of their way to make it not readable for anybody else.

If you don't want your code read, don't release the mission... simple as that.

[.kju [PvPscene]]

It wasn't meant in a positive sense GossamerSolid ;)

[Przemek_kondor]

Doesn't Valhalla use Warfare's respawn dialog (which is open source)? So not releasing source is kind of illegal, right?

[Defunkt]

I do not support mission devs that think their code is soooo good that they have gone out of their way to make it not readable for anybody else.

If you don't want your code read, don't release the mission... simple as that.
You feel you're somehow entitled to stipulate conditions under which an original work may be released even though releasing it at all is of itself an act of generosity? That's a fairly repugnant attitude if you don't mind me saying.

Mind you if "support mission devs" means changing 5% of their mission before then releasing it as Gossamer's Valhalla I doubt the author will lose too much sleep over the lack thereof.

[GossamerSolid]

It wasn't meant in a positive sense GossamerSolid ;)

I know, I was backing your post up with mine ;)



You feel you're somehow entitled to stipulate conditions under which an original work may be released even though releasing it at all is of itself an act of generosity? That's a fairly repugnant attitude if you don't mind me saying.

Mind you if "support mission devs" means changing 5% of their mission before then releasing it as Gossamer's Valhalla I doubt the author will lose too much sleep over the lack thereof.

I don't mind you saying that, we're all entitled to our own opinions right? Well my opinion is that what they did is rather close minded in such an open minded community.

It's like they went out of their way to add what you could compare to DRM for a game.

A lot of developers in this community have learned off of other people, so I don't see why they would want to close everything, hell they probably learned some stuff by looking at other people's code.

I'm not sure if the second area of your post was meant to be as rude as it looks from here, but I'll just ignore it as I don't really care what you think about my work... a lot of people seem to like it.

[NkEnNy]

Its a large scale PvP mission that aims to succeed. The burden of evidence lays with the accuser not the accused.

Obscuring the code:
- May combat cheaters & abuse
- Keeps the code unique and community unifed.

-k

[Minimalaco]

For pvp is project reality.

[GossamerSolid]

Its a large scale PvP mission that aims to succeed. The burden of evidence lays with the accuser not the accused.

Obscuring the code:
- May combat cheaters & abuse
- Keeps the code unique and community unifed.

-k

Obscuring the code will do NOTHING AT ALL to combat cheaters... You realize that the script kiddies know SQF as well and can run code on the fly ingame, it has nothing to do with the mission at all.

Back to my original point again, if you don't want your code used by the community or even looked at by the community and want it be to unified in your own community, then why are you bothering to release it.

[Celery]

You feel you're somehow entitled to stipulate conditions under which an original work may be released even though releasing it at all is of itself an act of generosity? That's a fairly repugnant attitude if you don't mind me saying.

Making the effort to rename variables and files into an unreadable mess is a questionable and highly arrogant practice, there's no way around it. It is and should be condemned. The makers of Valhalla learned their scripting by looking at other missions and using other people's scripts. There would be no Valhalla if everyone was such a douche prior to it.

[Pathetic_Berserker]

BIS pvp servers, like the idea

But why bother suggesting a specific pvp mission at the exclusion of others? Especialy one as flawed as Valhalla. Surely you would expect them (BIS) to come up with something on their own?

[Demonized]

the editor is there for a reason, are you suggesting that BIS should spend time redoing whats already been done for you to get to pay for that same thing that currently is free for all publics???
And them funding a server just seems like a hole in the wallet to me, when there are thousands of servers already maintained by publics.

Any new player can simply click on multiplayer and join any of the numerous public servers and get right into it.
Most of those that play or start playing arma do it for the coop not the PvP.

[GossamerSolid]

the editor is there for a reason, are you suggesting that BIS should spend time redoing whats already been done for you to get to pay for that same thing that currently is free for all publics???
And them funding a server just seems like a hole in the wallet to me, when there are thousands of servers already maintained by publics.

Any new player can simply click on multiplayer and join any of the numerous public servers and get right into it.
Most of those that play or start playing arma do it for the coop not the PvP.

This guy has got it right.

What's the famous saying again? "Don't re-invent the wheel"?

[NkEnNy]

Back to my original point again, if you don't want your code used by the community or even looked at by the community and want it be to unified in your own community, then why are you bothering to release it.
Obscuring your codeworks is just a design choice like everything else. Personally I'm a great believer in Open Source development, but wishing to preserve a unique gameplay package-- and continiously maintaining and developing it-- is just a valid choice as anything else.

To get back on track. Alongside many of you I do not believe BIS needs to maintain a server base. I DO believe that creating more example missions variants (or even officially supporting) some of the more popular public mission types-- and presenting these as part of a package is a good move.

-k

[Defunkt]

Making the effort to rename variables and files into an unreadable mess is a questionable and highly arrogant practice, there's no way around it. It is and should be condemned. The makers of Valhalla learned their scripting by looking at other missions and using other people's scripts. There would be no Valhalla if everyone was such a douche prior to it.
I would ask how wanting to protect your endeavours from being ripped-off and renamed is arrogant but the real point is that it doesn't matter why they do it. The point is that it's not for anyone to dictate what, when, how much or in what form they should contribute their work, it's a contribution and should be respected as such, the game is better for having it.

I must live a sleepy, naive corner of the world or this is another case of checking your values and decency at the door when entering the Internet. Where I live if somebody helps you with a job or shares something of theirs you take care to express gratitude, you don't bag them for not doing the whole job for you or not giving you the shirt off their back to boot.

Yesterday I saw somebody running down the Project Reality team because they wouldn't be allowing their assets to be used in other mods, this coming from somebody who has never released so much as an editor made mission. It kind've disgusted me and really made me wonder how this sense of entitlement got so thoroughly entrenched. People would never behave like this in their real-life personal or work relationships, it's grasping and greedy and self-serving. Permit people to give what they're happy to give and respect them for it, lots don't give at all.

[Celery]

I would ask how wanting to protect your endeavours from being ripped-off and renamed is arrogant but the real point is that it doesn't matter why they do it. The point is that it's not for anyone to dictate what, when, how much or in what form they should contribute their work, it's a contribution and should be respected as such, the game is better for having it.
You are totally right. Nobody can dictate how much of their code the makers of Valhalla reveal. The practice is, however, being condemned. See the difference?


I must live a sleepy, naive corner of the world or this is another case of checking your values and decency at the door when entering the Internet. Where I live if somebody helps you with a job or shares something of theirs you take care to express gratitude, you don't bag them for not doing the whole job for you or not giving you the shirt off their back to boot.
As long as we're in the world of analogies, obscuring mission code falls into the category of getting a "how the fuck does that concern you, dickhead?" when you ask your helper how he did it. Except that in Valhalla's case, not giving the information takes active and elaborate effort, which is why it's a that much douchier thing to do.


Yesterday I saw somebody running down the Project Reality team because they wouldn't be allowing their assets to be used in other mods, this coming from somebody who has never released so much as an editor made mission. It kind've disgusted me and really made me wonder how this sense of entitlement got so thoroughly entrenched. People would never behave like this in their real-life personal or work relationships, it's grasping and greedy and self-serving. Permit people to give what they're happy to give and respect them for it, lots don't give at all.
Personally I'm disgusted by the general attitude that only heavy contributors to the community (more precisely: addon makers) are worthy enough to express opinions on that. If there's a sense of entitlement in play, it's on the side that wants to utilize protectionistic policies on content in a game where open source is the lifeline of creativity and evolution of its community, including the ones releasing the closed source content.



To sum up: I can't and won't prevent anyone from adopting a closed source policy in this community, but I do think it's arrogant and heavily against the community's principles and I will express my opinion about it. It has nothing to do with the content itself: I'm not pissing on the creator for making it.

[Defunkt]

As long as we're in the world of analogies, obscuring mission code falls into the category of getting a "how the fuck does that concern you, dickhead?" when you ask your helper how he did it. Except that in Valhalla's case, not giving the information takes active and elaborate effort, which is why it's a that much douchier thing to do.

And as long as we're projecting assumed motives and intentions on the makers of Valhalla without actually asking them what they are let me say that I imagine that if you were to ask them how they did something or other they'd be perfectly happy to explain. More likely it's wholesale copying and pasting or the creation and distribution of derivatives that they'd like to prevent.


Personally I'm disgusted by the general attitude that only heavy contributors to the community (more precisely: addon makers) are worthy enough to express opinions on that. If there's a sense of entitlement in play, it's on the side that wants to utilize protectionistic policies on content in a game where open source is the lifeline of creativity and evolution of its community, including the ones releasing the closed source content.

This makes no sense at all unless you're actually proposing that nobody should retain any rights to the fruits of their own labours. I guess you might be a card-carrying socialist in real life who genuinely believes that nationalising everything (starting with your own property) would lead us to utopia but it's been proven time and again nothing stifles industry and innovation more and nothing would kill modding quicker. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, there would be no Project Reality in ArmA at all, is this making things better?

[Celery]

And as long as we're projecting assumed motives and intentions on the makers of Valhalla without actually asking them what they are let me say that I imagine that if you were to ask them how they did something or other they'd be perfectly happy to explain. More likely it's wholesale copying and pasting or the creation and distribution of derivatives that they'd like to prevent.
Perhaps WINSE and Roman are better people than I am, then, because I would not go out of my way to explain how my non-obscured missions work if someone asked. But since you imagine them to be such helpful chaps, can you imagine why they'd go out of their way to prevent everyone from understanding their scripts only to go out of their way to show them to anyone who asked?

People who breach the etiquette by claiming someone's work as theirs or deriving a mission in a way that hurts the original work or doesn't suit the maker can be pointed out and their version will be taken off of all self-respecting community sites with great certainty.



This makes no sense at all unless you're actually proposing that nobody should retain any rights to the fruits of their own labours. I guess you might be a card-carrying socialist in real life who genuinely believes that nationalising everything (starting with your own property) would lead us to utopia but it's been proven time and again nothing stifles industry and innovation more and nothing would kill modding quicker. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, there would be no Project Reality in ArmA at all, is this making things better?
Dude, are we still talking about Arma 2 modding here? It's almost as if you're making money out of this. If the content of what you are releasing for free is so valuable to you, then yes, it's better that you don't release it and instead make your own game that uses that content so you can actually realize that value.

I'm against intellectual theft, but such measures to prevent it are detrimental to the community. Please point out any mission or addon that has content stolen from another community member without it being removed from this forum and the community sites. There, I just proved the stupidity of content encryption.

[Defunkt]

Please point out any mission or addon that has content stolen from another community member without it being removed from this forum and the community sites. There, I just proved the stupidity of content encryption.
It's a mission, the derivative work will probably never be posted here just hosted on a server somewhere. I fail to see any remedy in your 'proof' or any reason a mission maker shouldn't take whatever steps are available to them to prevent such a thing if that is (for whatever reason) important to them.

I personally think it's pointless to try and claim ownership of code snippets, everybody learns and adapts based on what they've seen made by others. They can rarely be used in a differing context without significant revision and the very act of revising them will usually make them sufficiently different to satisfy the strictures of copyright. We'd probably also agree that it is flat-out mean-spirited given how we all learn to code. Whole missions which can take many months to develop, tweak and test are another matter entirely and it's a nonsense to insist that they should be laid bare just so somebody can try and lay claim to some trivial routine or other.

[.kju [PvPscene]]

Please point out any mission or addon that has content stolen from another community member without it being removed from this forum and the community sites.

This mentioned mission in this very thread is the example.

@<hidden> Defunkt
One advice: better do your research before defending the case.

---------- Post added at 06:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:29 AM ----------

@<hidden> Walker
You may want to get this thread closed and reopen it without a mention of Valhalla (or any other mission even).

[Defunkt]

One advice: better do your research before defending the case.
Thought I was defending a point rather than any particular case but if I should infer that a certain mission was pinched then (without wanting to treat that as anything more than hearsay) all the more reason for supporting IP owners protecting their work however they might. Not doing so was presumably no defence at all and removing a mission from one site or another won't undo what's already done. It goes on, a lot, just look at the never-ending shitfights surrounding various RP missions.

[.kju [PvPscene]]

You cannot protect your IP if it isn't yours.

Trying to obscure or "protect" code helps nothing trying to prevent theft.

Only action by the author and community can.
Most time it works, some times it doesn't.
Here it seems the popularity of the mission made people not care.
The authors did care but gave up due to the lack of support.

[Kochleffel]

The Valhalla developer obscured the code for only one reason:

if someone takes the conzept and does changes which are not planned and it falls back on him.

the Missions are over an Month final state and have no obscured code its comented code and a "used mods.txt" was alway´s included
and i asked each modder Personally if its allowed to use his code....

here u can take a look inside of it if u want.

http://fs.dao.nu/ check the missions shortcut.

and if there is a question about the stolen overtaken whatever question.

this was discussed with BI today and should be solved. i hope Dwarden will reply to this.

[walker]

Hi all

As the question of opening the Code to view has been answered by Kochleffel I no longer see it as an issue.

All I can say is that as a Game Form the C&H style that Valhalla and Berzerk represent is the most popular in PvP form in ArmA.

You could argue that this is down to how well the DAO servers are run as the DAO CTI is also very popular but once again I point out that CTI is a Capture and Hold game form.

It is the Freedom to play across the whole terrain with whatever strategy you devise using tactics, techniques and procedures as you wish that is the reason for the popularity of the C&H game form.

It is what makes the RV engine so superior to the shoe box corridor shooters which are plainly too artificial.

Once again I suggest that this game form is included with some official BIS servers in order to give those new to the ArmA community a PvP direction that will inculcate the values of the ArmA community in to the next generation of ArmA players.

Having BIS run some MP would also give BIS better feedback on the server code and config settings and allow it to give recomendations on those settings for the communmities servers. It would provide a testing ground for new ideas as well.

Kind Regards walker

[metalcraze]

Once again I suggest that this game form is included with some official BIS servers in order to give those new to the ArmA community a PvP direction that will inculcate the values of the ArmA community in to the next generation of ArmA players.

I don't think the horrors of public PvP gaming should grow into the "next generation" of ArmA players.

[walker]

I don't think the horrors of public PvP gaming should grow into the "next generation" of ArmA players.

Hi metalcraze

We all started somewhere. Many of us came from the Unreal, Quake, BF crowd; heck there may even be some of us who played COD on occasions :o , it is only by playing in this environment that we became better.

Excluding everyone else forever is not an option. We still have the private community servers which are the backbone of the ArmA community wher we can take refuge from the numpties for a while but we should not turn our backs on those new to ArmA.

Any sensible community runs both a locked private server for their dedicated players and an open public server as a recruiting tool. In fact most of the big public servers are that. It allows the comunity to suss out the numpties for the ban lists and to pick out the bright ones for new recruits as well as serving the wider community with well run high quality servers.

The only thing I would say is that there is is need for more community admins. I know it is a task, particularly when t5he numpties turn up and should never be considered as a gaming time but it is bread cast on the waters. I comes back to us as a community as more players and better players with a sense of honour because some of us are acting as roll models.

Kind Regards walker

[metalcraze]

My point is that if BIS will promote only public PvP it won't do any good.
The game is very counter-intuitive to any casual PvP gaming by design and public PvP is the smallest part of the whole AA MP scene.

So the everything BIS will get out of this is people complaining that they need weapon locks and grenade indicators on a daily basis, not weekly.

I know this may sound harsh but it's true - people who come to play public PvP come there exactly for that - run and gun. Which is not what this game is about.
The average new PC gamer today is not a new PC gamer of 10 years ago when PC games were varied and more open-minded in design. Todays PC gamer grew up on neverending clones of consolish Gears of War and CoD and he'd rather see ArmA changed to those instead of trying to adapt, survive and win.
As evidenced by the stream of "don't want to learn/plz dumb it down" threads.

[5LEvEN]

My point is that if BIS will promote only public PvP it won't do any good.
The game is very counter-intuitive to any casual PvP gaming by design and public PvP is the smallest part of the whole AA MP scene.

So the everything BIS will get out of this is people complaining that they need weapon locks and grenade indicators on a daily basis, not weekly.

I know this may sound harsh but it's true - people who come to play public PvP come there exactly for that - run and gun. Which is not what this game is about.
The average new PC gamer today is not a new PC gamer of 10 years ago when PC games were varied and more open-minded in design. Todays PC gamer grew up on neverending clones of consolish Gears of War and CoD and he'd rather see ArmA changed to those instead of trying to adapt, survive and win.
As evidenced by the stream of "don't want to learn/plz dumb it down" threads.

True....

Its up to the older generations to teach the young ones about variety in PC gaming. :blues:

[mant3z]

I am amazed how far your dreams go guys...
I'm quite sure that you wont see Valhalla, Berzerk etc included on vanilla ArmA]|[
If so, we can expect some new game modes or ideas because devs said something about PvP support, what exactly this mean nobody know.
Stop dreaming guys, we know how it is... look back how things were over 10 years.

Did BIS ever made a mission which was played all the time? Nope!
Mission makers always made new one better of changed those made by BIS in to masterpieces like Warfare by Beny. Or wait... Beny was only inspired he did it from the begining ;)... no no, mission makers did it first for OFP 1 then BIS made it... and then Beny made it even better :P

BIS will never beat mission makers.
Our comunity is just simply the best. :D

[Dwarden]

we support any good MP missions ours or community made ... of any style

that's difference between casual games and our ... imagination is the only limit here
(next to classified engine limits)

and i'm glad the dispuse was resolved after i talked to the parties involved
and whole community may benefit from such decisions ...

let's concenrate how make the game more fun for more players ...

[mant3z]

O really... any examples? <curious and nothing more>

[DMarkwick]

Hi metalcraze

We all started somewhere. Many of us came from the Unreal, Quake, BF crowd; heck there may even be some of us who played COD on occasions :o , it is only by playing in this environment that we became better.

Excluding everyone else forever is not an option. We still have the private community servers which are the backbone of the ArmA community wher we can take refuge from the numpties for a while but we should not turn our backs on those new to ArmA.

Any sensible community runs both a locked private server for their dedicated players and an open public server as a recruiting tool. In fact most of the big public servers are that. It allows the comunity to suss out the numpties for the ban lists and to pick out the bright ones for new recruits as well as serving the wider community with well run high quality servers.

The only thing I would say is that there is is need for more community admins. I know it is a task, particularly when t5he numpties turn up and should never be considered as a gaming time but it is bread cast on the waters. I comes back to us as a community as more players and better players with a sense of honour because some of us are acting as roll models.

Kind Regards walker

I think Walker that your general idea has merit :)

[ziiip]

O really... any examples? <curious and nothing more>

Warfare is a shining example.

[mant3z]

Warfare? Which one?
One was made by bis... the forgoten one... and we have Beny edition... and this one is made from the begining, isn't it?

[MadDogX]

Warfare? Which one?
One was made by bis... the forgoten one...
Yup, that one. They got the guy who made CTI in OFP to make an official version for ArmA, back in the day. I think it was introduced in ArmA 1.08.

[Mr_Centipede]

I think in the lobby section there should be a [NO MOD/ADDON] filter. If it;s already there, please forgive me. I've not stepped into MP lobby for quite a while, because mod scares me off. It's not that I dont know how to install mod, it's just that < fill in the blank as I cant quite find the word for it :D >

[mant3z]

Who is playing this today? :)
But yes, call me infidel... I didn't know it... oh maybe wait, I just forgot about this one.
But look now they don't evolve their warfare so beny made a better one because he listen to the comunity and he still do some upgrades for their fans.
Same will be with Valhalla... it'll be forgoten if it'll be included to the vanilla ArmA]|[
It must evolve with comunity if we want have it playable for long time.

BTW Valhalla isn't as good as Berzerk was... all this cash stuff killed the spirit.

Any chance that Zap will back to ArmA comunity? I've talked to him more then one year ago... I remember that he was piss of on BIS and comunity. What happen then all we know. What is going on with this guy now? Anybody know?

[MadDogX]

Who is playing this today? :)
Who gives a shit? There are better versions out there now that are being supported and updated by dedicated people.

The only thing BIS need to do for Arma3 is provide a couple of great and easy to grasp MP missions that promote and reward teamplay at launch. Just like Warfare, these should be designed from the ground up to be moddable. The community will make the most of them over time, just like Benny, Gossamer and others have done with Warfare.

[mant3z]

Who gives a shit? There are better versions out there now that are being supported and updated by dedicated people.


I don't know, maybe this guys from the first post :P

[MadDogX]

I don't know, maybe this guys from the first post :P
He doesn't mention Warfare anywhere.

[Mr. Charles]

I think in the lobby section there should be a [NO MOD/ADDON] filter. If it;s already there, please forgive me. I've not stepped into MP lobby for quite a while, because mod scares me off. It's not that I dont know how to install mod, it's just that < fill in the blank as I cant quite find the word for it :D >

http://mrcharles.pytalhost.com/ArmAOA/diverses/Settings.png

http://mrcharles.pytalhost.com/ArmAOA/diverses/Settings2.png

:butbut:

[whisper]

I'm going to be a little bit blunt, but meh....
Berzerk/Valhalla are popular because they are the most no-brainer out of the latest PvP attempts, and permit easy run & camp. Fortunately the situation evolved from the permanent full hold for 50 minutes we had before, but they are popular because you don't have to think much. Spawn, take your gun, go there, sit down

And it's not C&H, sry Walker. The fact you can spawn inside zone just rules out C&H. It's a derivative from Assault mode of Battlefield games (in fact, Berzerk is an adaptation of BattleField 1985 mission in OFP).

If you look for C&H, look up the excellent ones you can find on 8BZ server
I'd gladly see BI taking steps to ensure we have some solid PvP experience at launch with ArmA3, and letting the community grow on its own after that, like it has been done with Warfare. But I'm not sure Valhalla/whatever would be a step in the right direction to showcase A3 possibilities

Well, in fact, BI Sector Control in Zargabad are a very good first step into PvP

[Celery]

Isn't C&H where you take flags off poles in order to make them yield points for your side? Sector Control is the zone seizing variant.

[metalcraze]

The only thing BIS need to do for Arma3 is provide a couple of great and easy to grasp MP missions that promote and reward teamplay at launch. Just like Warfare, these should be designed from the ground up to be moddable. The community will make the most of them over time, just like Benny, Gossamer and others have done with Warfare.

I'm afraid to promote teamplay BIS will have to force everyone to use TS3 or they will be kicked from the server - which obviously BIS won't do (although it would've been pretty cool).

Otherwise it will always be chaotic no matter which game type is played.

Without communication there can be no teamwork.

Didn't BIS plan to add an official support to some proper 3d sound positioning comm software (Ventrillo something?) back in 2009?

[whisper]

I'm afraid to promote teamplay BIS will have to force everyone to use TS3 or they will be kicked from the server - which obviously BIS won't do (although it would've been pretty cool).

Otherwise it will always be chaotic no matter which game type is played.

Without communication there can be no teamwork.

Didn't BIS plan to add an official support to some proper 3d sound positioning comm software (Ventrillo something?) back in 2009?

This is true for PvP or Coop, tbh. Since OFP
And would need its own thread :)

[MadDogX]

I'm afraid to promote teamplay BIS will have to force everyone to use TS3 or they will be kicked from the server - which obviously BIS won't do (although it would've been pretty cool).
If the in-game VoN worked without a hitch, that would be better than any external tool. At least that's my experience with other games, like COD, BF2142 and L4D1/2.


Didn't BIS plan to add an official support to some proper 3d sound positioning comm software (Ventrillo something?) back in 2009?
Mumble. Don't know what became of it though.

[walker]

Hi all

I am not too bothered about the game form's lineage in this thread; generally that is IMHO Off Topic.

There are several key factors to the concept of using Valhalla or Berzerk or other C&H on BIS official servers:


Popularity; Valhalla and before it Berzerk are far and away the most popular PvP game form on ArmA servers.
Accessibility, because the concept is close enough to existing game forms on other FPS games, it provides an intuitive game form similar enough to their earlier experience in older FPS for players to get it.
...Berzerk/Valhalla are popular because they are the most no-brainer out of the latest PvP attempts...
Freedom, the key difference between ArmA and older FPS like COD is that the player is free to move around and approach the objective in any way they wish; as a team as the Russians do on via Team Speak on the DAO server (hence why they win so often), as combined arms element, as tank, as a ninja zone sneaker, as a kamikaze zone stormer, as long range sniper, and yes as a zone camper, because camping is a respected tactic in ArmA unlike older game forms etc.
Cohesion, they key problem with freedom is lack direction and leadership, BIS providing such leadership by providing servers with a direction for beginners will create a more cohesive community.
Dissent, in ArmA you can dissent from the official line, we do as a community and will always be able to run our own servers, so this would never destroy that essential freedom but it would provide a starting point and haven from the anarchy that is ArmA game forms and an aswer to the plethora of confusion from new members of the ArmA community, about understanding how to play in ArmA MP

I refer you all back to the original post for a more detailed argument on the subject
http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=119372

Kind Regards walker

[metalcraze]

If the in-game VoN worked without a hitch, that would be better than any external tool. At least that's my experience with other games, like COD, BF2142 and L4D1/2.
If VoN would've worked like TS3 with ACRE (with squad/fireteam/company channel division) we wouldn't be using TS3 with ACRE.
It's too bad BIS won't implement something like this into the game. Then there would've been no excuse not to use it.

But I think this would've helped people who just want to log-in onto the server and play as a team more than anything else.

[sbsmac]

I just logged on and checked the online figures for TVT. Top 9 TvT games as of 21:56 BST...

* CTI: 51 players
* CTI: 46 players
* Valhalla: 36 players
* TvT (?) Zargabad Life: 16 players
* TVT Domination: 16 players
* CTF: 15 players
* CTI: 13 players

Now, you might want to claim on the basis of those randomly sampled numbers that CTI is the most popular followed by Valhalla to which I would respond that having 50% of f**k-all is hardly a measure of success. The real challenge for BIS is to grow those online numbers by a couple of orders of magnitude (at least) across the board. Strangely enough OFP _did_ have very good online numbers for PvP back before the advent of complicated mission objectives, VON, or JIP so somehow I don't think that it's simply a matter of marketing the right gametype to the legions of sophisticated and discerning gamers who are sitting on the sidelines waiting for their particular niche to be supported.


It's pointless addressing Walker's misconceptions about other gametypes since I think he has missed the fundamental point that there is nothing inherently 'superior' about games that claim to require teamwork or that utilise all features of ArmA. As long as they pull in players, you will end up with a healthy online experience.

The nice thing about ArmA is that it is capable of addressing many different gameplay niches. So my own view is that a more effective strategy would be for BIS to provide a range of basic gametypes 'out of the box' to allow new players to get as broad a view of what the game can offer as possible. The more people that try the game and find a few things they like, the better. You never know, some of those people might even go on to try other game types as well....

[Smookie]

LOL @<hidden> "tvt" player numbers :) The trick would be to probably boost up the stats so that there is nearly as many TvT players as coop players nowadays.

I am pretty sure the animation system and general geriatric feel of avatar controlled by player as well as rather poor marketing compared to popular pvp games is to be blamed and should that be addressed, real pvp mission support from BIS might turn out to be unnecessary.

[metalcraze]

Smookie I'm afraid that the moment BIS adds animations that IRL would tear muscles apart from weapon recoil to compete with "PvP games" is the moment series completely fail financially losing to Battlefields and CoDs.

The only reason why ArmA is still alive is because its marketing cannot be compared to what you've named.