Regarding complaints about realism in ARMA III

[Keine]

A lot of people have been throwing around complaints about the setting Arma 3 has taken, set in the near future, in a battleground we’re not familiar with. Bohemia’s choice to take this route with their new game has caused a large split in those in the community who want realism to be the focus in the Arma series. However, this attitude is extremely premature to stand behind from just a few screenshots of the game, and some of the demands and complaints that stand out are a bit selfish, and some completely illogical.

The first and foremost complaint with the screenshots is that Arma 3 appears “unrealistic”. The screenshots present it with a mixture of weapons and vehicles not standard to any army. This leads some people to think that the game as a whole will throw realism out the window, and it’ll use the future as an excuse to do this. This is a hasty, reactionary response that doesn’t consider Bohemia’s past in making the OFP and Arma series. First, look at the weapons and vehicles showcased in the screenshots. You can see an F2000, an M14, and maybe a TAR-21. The vehicles shown are a Merkava tank, a Comanche, and the Havoc/Hokum hybrid. With the exception of the nameless Kami-2580, all these are real, existing technology. They are not made up for the sake of being futuristic. They are REAL. While the premise of these machines existing together at one point in time is a creative liberty taken by Bohemia, people forget that this is something they have done MANY TIMES over the course of their games’ history.

OFP pitted US forces against a renegade Soviet force, on fictional islands in a scenario that never existed. There were no cries about realism in the plot there. Arma had a similarly fictional setup, with a communist, Caribbean island state that also had access to Ka-50s, a helicopter used only by Russia, and even then sparingly. No complaints of unrealistic circumstances and technology then. Arma 2 was set in the near future, when the USMC had the F-35 standard, fighting Russians in a fictional, Eastern European country. Operation Arrowhead advanced the timeline slightly further in the future, in a time where the US Army uses the SCAR as its main service weapon. Do you see the pattern?

Bohemia has always favored making its own storyline and setting over reusing cliché, familiar battlegrounds. Yet despite this, their games still maintain that effort to preserve the simulation aspect of the game, and its success in doing so is the same reason so much of its consumer base is this insistent on maintaining realism.

Let’s be blunt, here. Bohemia has been doing this same, successful formula for years, and they do it well. If this wasn’t true, few of us would be here arguing over the next title in the series. It is ridiculous to pass judgment on the game when the only evidence available has been a few screenshots. Just because the setting is not a desert does not mean this will change; it means that Bohemia is doing what they want with the title, and will put their best effort into making something they enjoy. And that’s more than can be said for a lot of games being pumped out these days.

Wait and see how it is, and support Bohemia's choice to experiment. Remember, there's always mods if you aren't completely satisfied.

[Enad]

+1. I wish people would stop with the unrealistic comments, it's 10 + years in the future so no one here knows what the US Military will be using at that point.

[colonel stagler]

Not only is the Merkava there. There is a IDF Namer behind it also :)

Just putting that story into context with current events it is not that incredible. Middle eastern political uprisings similar to those that are taking place today form a single Middle eastern state. That state with its combined militaries and resources decides to invade north west into europe?
Not so incredible is it?

[Mr Butlertron]

After playing what feels like the same campaign year in and year out I don't really care if they change it up. Just wish they'd get rid of that snore-inducing special forces focus.

[Steakslim]

Remember the shit throwing flamewars before Arma2's release over the XM8 and the F-35 that would spark up, well mainly the XM8. Well get ready to see that again till mid 2012.

[Heatseeker]

And the reason to open yet another thread on the very same subject is?

[Steakslim]

Get it out of our systems before the Mod's show up with their pruning scissors.

[NodUnit]

The portrayal of realism should not be considered the equipment but how the equipment is used and it's functionality, if they keep that then hey it's realistic for me.

[Demonized]

I have no concerns about what BIS have choosen to do with its coming arma3, i am convinced that they will deliver a even more enjoyable product than arma2 for all of their loyal customers, no doubt about it.

[SpetS15]

I dont care is arma3 is in the space, I want the game, same gameplay but better graphics, animations, FX, sound, models, etc, etc and optimization offcourse. And anyway, it will be as always 100% moddeable. love that BIS

[NodUnit]

Eh, graphics can take a back seat to asthetics, and better graphics isn't always the best road, harder graphics=less optimization.

[BOTA:49]

As long as there are AK variants and some sort of M16/M4 variants, I don't care too much if they add in any oddball weapons. Look how little the XM-8s were used, and even after having them featured again in PMC they're still hardly ever seen in anything other than stock PMC missions. Hell, even if the M16 is of the M16A5 and the M4 gets replaced by the HK416 or something like that I wouldn't mind too much. As long as I don't have to use the F2000 for my West weaponry.

[Binkowski]

lol rah-66 commanche only two were ever made. i wonder if the big bad leader is a man with a gravely voice, with a big full accent. he probably has an eye patch and wears a nice suit. this means he is leader of bad guy. he most likely holds a nuclear missile bomb and will never give the nuclear missile bomb to the good guys. but, the main character will say "give the nuclear missile bomb to us leader enemy boss, and then put your hands up". he will reply with "okay", followed by "usa is dominate". this will be the end of the arma3 story.

[Steakslim]

lol, a total bond villain.

I think a volcano hideout is in order for the new island.

[colonel stagler]

Nah. I think Scott Miller will be voiced by that same guy who does Cooper/Gambler/Reynolds

[NodUnit]

lol rah-66 commanche only two were ever made. i wonder if the big bad leader is a man with a gravely voice, with a big full accent. he probably has an eye patch and wears a nice suit. this means he is leader of bad guy. he most likely holds a nuclear missile bomb and will never give the nuclear missile bomb to the good guys. but, the main character will say "give the nuclear missile bomb to us leader enemy boss, and then put your hands up". he will reply with "okay", followed by "usa is dominate". this will be the end of the arma3 story.

I'd actually so buy a game that had a sense of humor for itself like that if it were extended into a full game.

[skadog]

I haven't seen any screen shots of invisibility cloaks or shoulder mounted rocket launchers..

[Wallace71]

in the end, YOU WILL BUY IT ANYWAY BECAUSE THE NAME ARMA IS IN THE TITLE. And you'll never mention "realism" to arma, seeing as it is actually a realistic shooter to begin with. and nobody knows what the future holds, so why not embrace the creative sides of things? @<hidden>, couldn't have said it better myself.

---------- Post added at 03:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:58 AM ----------


lol rah-66 commanche only two were ever made. i wonder if the big bad leader is a man with a gravely voice, with a big full accent. he probably has an eye patch and wears a nice suit. this means he is leader of bad guy. he most likely holds a nuclear missile bomb and will never give the nuclear missile bomb to the good guys. but, the main character will say "give the nuclear missile bomb to us leader enemy boss, and then put your hands up". he will reply with "okay", followed by "usa is dominate". this will be the end of the arma3 story.

that sir, deserves +1 internets. and that's actually Modern Warfare 3's story

[Daniel]

I haven't seen any screen shots of invisibility cloaks or shoulder mounted rocket launchers..

There's a very good reason why you couldn't see them.

[Undeceived]

[...]
Thanks for your post, Keine.
I really hope that the whining will stop soon!



Nah. I think Scott Miller will be voiced by that same guy who does Cooper/Gambler/Reynolds
:D I hope not! :) I liked his voice in Arma 2 but I'll always remember the A2 (and A1: Queen's Gambit) characters when I hear it.
We need a new voice for the new face!

[Ebolavirus]

i'm offended by this thread

[dfear]

I agree with Keine. All weapons and vehicles screened are real after all. Im sure there will be other models too, not only a commanche and a markeva.. Community and modders will provide addons as always, and we are going to have the same freedom that we have now in A2.

Regarding of Physx, I'm sure that A3 will take a great advantage by using this technology. Dont think just at ragdolls, Physx will affect also axplosion as destructable objects in a way that many of us have already seen in other titles.

I'm confident about BI upcoming code, do the same.

[KBourne]

I'm in favour of the op i would not be able to put it in better writing then he did. +1

Disliking the future settings we even don't know for a fact how the settings are going to be. Anyway its the game play as long BIS keeps the core game play then we will be fine ;)

kind regards

[InstaGoat]

Wait and see how it is, and support Bohemia's choice to experiment. Remember, there's always mods if you aren't completely satisfied.

Well said. I wouldn´t mind the storyline being a bit outlandish. Main part for me is that it´s fun, and that the core gameplay remains realistic. Being able to use real world tactics and having to think and plan before acting is what makes the Arma series for me, no matter the equipment used by the characters. In the end, all guns shoot, their looks are just eyecandy... unless, of course, they introduce a complex ballistic system individually modelling each weapon, which is unlikely to happen.

I´d just hope that the rivet counters would stop complaining so much, either drop it or at least leave it be until you played the game. I won´t pass judgement on it until I have, and before that, I´m going to give BI the benefit of the doubt and defend them against any superficial, childish complaints.

Cheers

Insta

[Archosaurusrev]

i'm offended by this thread

I'm from 2025 and I'm soooooo offended.

[maionaze]

To further support what the OP said , here is a little dialogue :

Guy from the future 1 : Hello guy from the future 2 !
Guy from the future 2 : Hello guy from the future 1 !
GF 1 : It's a nice day today , xx.xx.2025 ( for example ) !
GF 2. Yes , a beautiful day . I was walking along the southern coast of the fictional island we are on and I saw NATO/US forces armed with FN 2000's .
GF1 : That's impossible !!!!1
GF 2: How so ?
GF1 : They did not use FN 2000's in 2011/2012 !!!
GF 2: It's 2025 ...
GF 1: I know right , it's sooo unrealistic !!!!
GF 2: Sure ... I also saw a RAH 66 and a Kavok ( :D )
GF 1: That's impossible and unrealistic !!!one
GF 2: How so ? Although the RAH 66 was canceled in 2004 it was operational and regarding the Kavok they simply switched the rotor design on the Havoc with that from the KA 50/52 .
GF 1 : :mad: yeah but .... I wish I lived in the 80's - 90's , things were waaaay more realistic back then .
GF 2: Sure they were :rolleyes:

Take it with a grain of salt ... ;)

[KBourne]

To further support what the OP said , here is a little dialogue :

Guy from the future 1 : Hello guy from the future 2 !
Guy from the future 2 : Hello guy from the future 1 !
GF 1 : It's a nice day today , xx.xx.2025 ( for example ) !
GF 2. Yes , a beautiful day . I was walking along the southern coast of the fictional island we are on and I saw NATO/US forces armed with FN 2000's .
GF1 : That's impossible !!!!1
GF 2: How so ?
GF1 : They did not use FN 2000's in 2011/2012 !!!
GF 2: It's 2025 ...
GF 1: I know right , it's sooo unrealistic !!!!
GF 2: Sure ... I also saw a RAH 66 and a Kavok ( :D )
GF 1: That's impossible and unrealistic !!!one
GF 2: How so ? Although the RAH 66 was canceled in 2004 it was operational and regarding the Kavok they simply switched the rotor design on the Havoc with that from the KA 50/52 .
GF 1 : :mad: yeah but .... I wish I lived in the 80's - 90's , things were waaaay more realistic back then .
GF 2: Sure they were :rolleyes:

Take it with a grain of salt ... ;)

+1 strike, you have waaaay to much time on your hand is it? :D


i'm offended by this thread

I hope you are not serious otherwise, Oh noes the op should be banned now :rolleyes: djeeses

[tsb247]

I'm not worried. In fact, I am curious to see the exact direction they will be going with this. I have been around since the original OFP (well, not on the forums since then, but you get the idea), and I am excited to see them them taking a new direction with the franchise. As long as it doesn't turn into a Ghost Recon game, I'm cool with it. Besides, there are a LOT of cutting-edge military technologies they could employ; technologies that are being developed but have not been fielded yet. We could see things like the Northrop Grumman Firebird, Metal Storm, Smart Area denial systems, etc. Who knows?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFsFMYoUju8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8hlj4EbdsE
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/311m-for-xm7-spider-red-land-mines-02404/

Also, as an aerospace engineering student, I am EXSTATIC to see someone doing justice to the RAH-66 Commanche. I was very upset that they cancelled the program. It was one hell of a helicopter!

[CarlosTex]

I don't care it is set 20 years from now. Rock on BIS!!!! Give us epic milsim

[Liquidpinky]

I'm from 2025 and I'm soooooo offended.

Me too, I can't believe they used those phased out POS Merks and everyone knows the Comanche only last 5 years after re-introduction in 2014 thanks to design flaws.
And where are the Challenger 3's?

Pffff, realism my arse.

[ray243]

OP just doesn't get it. I'm fine with all the storyline and shit, but I just don't like the futuristic technology that comes with it. Yeah, SCAR was pretty futuristic, but its only a damn gun. Now this changed most of the faction's weapons and equipment. That is something I wouldn't like. Everything in Arma 2 was modern.

[Daniel]

You haven't seen everything in Arma 3 yet though. It's obvious they'd show the cool new stuff at first to draw the crowds. There's nothing to say the bad guys (or good guys) won't be wielding good old AKs and technicals too.

[sheffer]

its not a merkava1\2\3 and its not mi28. use google to find out photos and list of modifications. its a fact and its disappointment.

[CMB Unit 01]

Well done OP for starting this thread. I was tempted to do it myself several times.

[dale0404]

You all have valid points from your own perspectives but I will tell you one thing and please quote me on it next year...




You will still buy the game!!!

[Westsailor]

I'm not concerned about the 'unrealistic' weapons, vehicles and setting being in the future. Like the B-52 & AK-47, I suspect all the 'old' weapons & vehicles will still be around in 2025.

Now it's WAY too early to tell but what makes me take pause wrt to realism is this (from the Arma 2 CO website):

"Lifelike combat simulation including bullet ballistic & deflection, material penetration and more."

versus this describing Arma 3(from the Arma 3 website):

"a unique sandbox-style combat gameplay experience"

The operative difference being 'simulation' versus 'gameplay'.

Now if Arma 3 is BIS going mainstream (ala COD, MW, BF3, etc.) it may not be a bad thing. Certainly not for their coffers anyway and I'm all for that. And whatever it is I'll probably buy it (if by then I have a system that will run it).

Doesn't mean I won't dearly miss the high fidelity of Arma 2 though. I'm addicted to Arma 2 because it isn't a COD, MW, BF3, etc..

It would just be nicer if Arma 3 was Arma 2 with eyecandy.

[Zipper5]

It would just be nicer if Arma 3 was Arma 2 with eyecandy.
What...

I seriously hope you over-simplified that. Otherwise, congratulations - you can now consider yourself part of the COD crowd. ;)

[Engioc]

I don't understand the complaints either, the screenshots look beautiful and all looking very realistic to me. So its set in the future, that's not a bad thing, there is little need to for BI to simply pump out another game too similar to what they've already done. When it comes to how weapons work, and how we work with them I'm sure BI will make it as realistic as always. Really not sure what all the fuss is about, just a few nice screen shots that look like they're just trying to show of the new graphics more than anything else.

[ryguy]

It would just be nicer if Arma 3 was Arma 2 with eyecandy.

So we can waste all our time and money in this? You crazy?

[Westsailor]

It would just be nicer if Arma 3 was Arma 2 with eyecandy.


What...

I seriously hope you over-simplified that. Otherwise, congratulations - you can now consider yourself part of the COD crowd. ;)


So we can waste all our time and money in this? You crazy?

OK... Not sure how that got so misinterpreted so lemme say it another way.

I'm hoping Arma 3 is NOT essentially a dumbed down 'game' version of Arma 2 meant for the likes of the mainstream COD crowd.

The way the website description reads I'm not so sure.

Thus my desire for Arma 3 to retain all the hi-fi simulation aspects of Arma 2 but with 'new & improved' physics effects. After all, it's why I use Blastcore and sound effects addons in Arma 2.

but even if it is a dumbed down version I'm sure modders will step up to the plate (ala Project Reality, A.C.E. team, etc.) to rectify the matter :)

That better?

[skadog]

There's a very good reason why you couldn't see them.

Just like how people talk about seeing ghosts but never gets them on film? LOL! ;)

[[GR]Operative]

in the end, YOU WILL BUY IT ANYWAY BECAUSE THE NAME ARMA IS IN THE TITLE.

How many Operation Flashpoint titles do exist? They keep the name, but people don't buy them :rolleyes:

[Madus_Maximus]

OP just doesn't get it. I'm fine with all the storyline and shit, but I just don't like the futuristic technology that comes with it. Yeah, SCAR was pretty futuristic, but its only a damn gun. Now this changed most of the faction's weapons and equipment. That is something I wouldn't like. Everything in Arma 2 was modern.

Compare the gear we went into Iraq with and what we're using now. It's changed to almost unrecognisable levels for a lot of it. We use totally different camo's, different helmets, different webbing...

The US went in with M16's and it's rare you see them now, it's all some variant of the M4A1 no matter the branch. The SA80's we use now use ACOG instead of SUSAT, they're fitted with RAS plates and use bits made for the SOPMOD project.

Things change, it hasn't even been 10 years since then, and things are already quite different. Who's to say things won't change as much as they have by the date ArmA 3 is set? The story is they've been at war for a while. Things change very quickly when you're at war. Improvements are rushed into service and costs are cut where possible, so you end up with things you'd normally not have during peace time or under less stressful periods of budgeting.

[NodUnit]

OK... Not sure how that got so misinterpreted so lemme say it another way.

I'm hoping Arma 3 is NOT essentially a dumbed down 'game' version of Arma 2 meant for the likes of the mainstream COD crowd.

The way the website description reads I'm not so sure.

Thus my desire for Arma 3 to retain all the hi-fi simulation aspects of Arma 2 but with 'new & improved' physics effects. After all, it's why I use Blastcore and sound effects addons in Arma 2.

but even if it is a dumbed down version I'm sure modders will step up to the plate (ala Project Reality, A.C.E. team, etc.) to rectify the matter :)

That better?

They thought you meant it as being Arma3 but repackaged with higher graphics and thats it.

_______________________________________________________________________________

By ther way here are a few examples of some "future" tech used in war and erm..high business places.

Active Denial System http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyTehuk5p2c (using microwaves to deter people)

LRAD, acoustic sound deterrant http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSMyY3_dmrM&feature=related

Metal storm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8hlj4EbdsE

Airborne lasers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-dEXaSJWME 2007

XM307 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f9FHKQdLzA

Spyder http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb8ZdYw3SQE

Iron Fist http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxPinJp051I (vehicle protection)

Trophy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62jzAupr044&feature=related

Expeditionary fighting vehicle (apc and high speed boat) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16iLkqDcFvU

Corner shot http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMOmowaLVco&feature=related

NLOS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sMhxlZ8PE4&feature=related

We have combat robots.. http://dvice.com/assets_c/2009/05/QinetiQ-MAARS-combat-robot-thumb-550xauto-18426.jpg

It was said at their creation that helicopters would never be able to do some of the maneuvers that aircraft can, but now they can loop and barrel roll.

It was said that stealth technology couldn't exist then the B-2 and F-117 were shown.

It was said that unammaned vehicles could be the future..now we have them on the ground and air.

It was said that a hybrid between helicopter and plane could not exist, yet the V-22B Osprey says otherwise.


There are tons and tons of other things being tested, equipment that monitors a soldiers vital signs and position, relays camera feeds back in realtime and more,

A few more things http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAaHKRfiiaQ

NLOSC http://www.armyrecognition.com/images/stories/north_america/united_states/artillery_vehicle/nlos-c_gun_system/pictures/nlos-c_gun_system_United_States_US-Army_005.jpg

How about these, do they look like they belong in our era? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/US_Navy_Sea_Shadow_stealth_craft.jpg or this http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/dangerroom/2009/11/lcs-2.jpg how about this tire http://blog.cardomain.com/tag/military/

I agree with what many have said, it isn't the content that matters but the core mechanics, how they behave and so on, we aren't seeing anything so crazy such as laser rifles (but given advances I wouldn't be surprised if it was being worked on)

The Armaverse is not our universe, the two share many traits but they are not the same, the RAH-66 may not have been cancelled in the Armaverse and was simply reserved for the most special of operations..either way the future we see in Arma3 is not as crazy as the future can be in reality.

[Make Love Not War]

i wonder if the big bad leader is a man with a gravely voice, with a big full accent. he probably has an eye patch and wears a nice suit. this means he is leader of bad guy. he most likely holds a nuclear missile bomb and will never give the nuclear missile bomb to the good guys. but, the main character will say "give the nuclear missile bomb to us leader enemy boss, and then put your hands up". he will reply with "okay", followed by "usa is dominate". this will be the end of the arma3 story.

"Bloody screen! Suhh-reaal..." :D

[Tom1]

If it was goign to be mainstreme-ish /cod like/ super furtureistic it wouldnt be called arma 3 but would have a different name. Set in near future is alright, and you can tell it will be very similar to what we have now, and worst comes to worst, we still have arma 2 to play :)

[metalcraze]

I really hope BIS won't dumb it down though.

Because I'm sure they realize that the moment it becomes CoD/Battlefield it will flop hard - because people who play CoD and BF already have CoD and BF and we will have nothing

[Flogger23m]

The US went in with M16's and it's rare you see them now, it's all some variant of the M4A1 no matter the branch.

Going to nitpick here. :)

The M16A4 is the standard issue rifle for the USMC and has been for the past few years. That is what the infantry carries.

The US Army uses the M4 as standard issue. Apparently they will convert these to M4A1s now (heavier barrel + full auto), with a possibility for a gas piston conversion.

I don't mind futuristic stuff as long as it seems plausible. FN SCAR, HK 416, or some other advanced AR-15 variant would be logical. A bullpup that is not even used at all here? Not very likely.

I'll just hope a decent mod comes out to fix all of that stuff before buying.

[dfear]

I'm sure A3 will be far better than A2, BIS is upgrading A2 code as they did in the past with previous titles. Im sure that in A3 we are going to find scripting commands originally created in ofp. ;)

A3 will probably have the same implementations of A2, plus many new features like, for istance, underwater operations and new physics system.

[-Puma-]

reading these complaints about the gear used in arma 3 and with what equipment US used in iraq and what they didnt makes me think, maybe US is not that big of a factor in the game?? maybe we have more european troops and Us plays a small role in this, maybe they´re engaged in the asia.. I would like this scenario very much as im getting to get sick of allways play as a yankee.

ps. im talking about the game only