No DX11?

[Flashbang151]

Damn! :yay: I'm really excited about the Arma 3 announcement but one thing is bothering me. Why DX10 and not DX11?

Maybe a Dev can clarify that? I saw what DX11 can do. Shogun Total War 2 runs 50% faster with the DX11 patch. No flickering and smooth shadows.

ARMA 3 wohoooo!!!

[PuFu]

it says Requirements just above where you read about DX10. It doesn't say features, does it?

[metalcraze]

DX10 and DX11 don't bring any visual improvements over DX9.
They don't magically speed up games by 50% either.

They may as well just double the polygons on their models and you will have the same sweet performance hit as with "hw tessellation".

[Hamm]

DX10 and DX11 don't bring any visual improvements over DX9.
They don't magically speed up games by 50% either.

They may as well just double the polygons on their models and you will have the same sweet performance hit as with "hw tessellation".


This post is wrong.

:j:

[neokika]

DX10 and DX11 don't bring any visual improvements over DX9.

Yeah right...
Anyway, seems DX10 is required, does not mention if DX11 is included or not, so, it may be included, just not required.

_neo_

[Liquidpinky]

This post is wrong.

:j:

Very wrong in fact.

[Primarch]

DX10 and DX11 don't bring any visual improvements over DX9.
They don't magically speed up games by 50% either.

They may as well just double the polygons on their models and you will have the same sweet performance hit as with "hw tessellation".

Woohoo, doctor IdunnowtfIamtalkingabout is here!

[Sickboy]

Requirement is DX10. Perhaps Recommended will be DX11? :)

[Flashbang151]

Hope so. The features Multithreaded Rendering and Tessellation are made for Arma 3 *lol*.

[dale0404]

Yeah right...
Anyway, seems DX10 is required, does not mention if DX11 is included or not, so, it may be included, just not required.

_neo_

This.

[S.T.A.L.K.E.R.]

Just for performance increases I'd like to see the engine have a DX11 renderer

[Liquidpinky]

My biggest pet hate is having made gun models myself I find myself instantly counting the sections on a guns barrel and hating how they could have added some more polies to keep it looking more real, even with normal maps there is still a point where you can see the segments.
And don't even get me started on hexagonal vehicle wheels. sheesh.

DX11 would remove this for me if it was utilized, plus it would be another get it right up you to the ageing consoles. :P


BIS I urge you, help a pedantic man get some sleep at nights.

[5LEvEN]

Dx11 would be a nice option

[Cookieeater]

DX10 and DX11 don't bring any visual improvements over DX9.
They don't magically speed up games by 50% either.

They may as well just double the polygons on their models and you will have the same sweet performance hit as with "hw tessellation".

This post is right. What the hell has DX10 given us? What the hell has DX11 given us? Tessellation? Tessellation is barely noticeable, we've come to a point where polygon counts don't matter as much anymore, and having more polygons is redundant and unnoticeable, as the models themselves are detailed already. DX10 is there because it's easier to develop graphics on than DX9.

[Przemek_kondor]

I remember that one of the BIS employee (I think it was Dwarden) wrote that DX10 brings nothing new and DX11 own some new features that is why it looks weird.
Seems to be a big deal with NVidia -First PhysX and then DX10 - IFAIK geforces implement DX11 quite lately (comparing to radeons) (GF2xx serie doesn't have it yet)

[MadDogX]

Minimal requirement is DX10, that doesn't mean DX11 isn't still in the cards.

Assuming for a moment that the game will support DX11, if they had put DX11 as a minimal requirement, even more peeps would be hitting the roof right now, because it would have forced them to upgrade to NVidia 400/500+ or AMD 5000/6000+ series cards.

[quicKsanD]

Well it's a good sign to see that the ArmA 3 engine has been updated to support DirectX 10 to begin with. From what I can tell a lot of the core things in the Real Virtual engine have been rewritten from the core. Things like underwater which I haven't seen for 10 years of BIS games, physics seem to point out to a new dawn.

I'm going to bu a direct x 11 powerful card for this game. And I sincerly hope that BIS can add support for tesselation, is honestly a stand out feature to be had in a game of this scope and size!!!

Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G9anRoYGko

[Przemek_kondor]

Minimal requirement is DX10, that doesn't mean DX11 isn't still in the cards.That's obvious. But I don't understand this assuming (that Arma3 uses DX11). Could a game use DX11 but don't require it?
Is there any fallback DX11 -> DX10 for DX11-only features?

[MadDogX]

That's obvious. But I don't understand this assuming (that Arma3 uses DX11). Could a game use DX11 but don't require it?
Is there any fallback DX11 -> DX10 for DX11-only features?
Some other games support DX9 with optional DX11 where available. Why shouldn't Arma3 support DX10 and optional DX11?

EDIT: Civ V apparently supports both DX10 and DX11. It was also the first game to fully implement DX11 multithreaded rendering, AFAIK. So it must be possible.

[EricM]

HW tesselation IS a big deal and a game changer for a game like arma, especially for the environment : With a fixed grid cell of a few meters, anything smaller is impossible to reproduce (no small road ditches, uneven ground, ocean waves etc...). With HW tesselation, it opens up a world of details at a fraction of the cost : some of it can be procedurally generated (waves, perlin noise for micro terrain detail), some can be simple displacement textures...

At last, since the tesselation is progressive as you move towards the object, it also really helps on the LOD swapping issues.

DX10 was useless for the most part, but DX11 does bring optimizations and new features. By summer 2012, it'll be a given for any new AAA PC games, especially after the release of Battlefield 3.

[SgtH3nry3]

DirectX 10 is actually very useful as Direct3D 9 (and other DX API) calls are emulated and bring alot of extra overhead processing. The fact that people don't notice any progression from Direct3D 9 to Direct3D 10 is because developers don't use the new featureset, they just make the game with a DX9 mindset when much more is possible.

The newer geometry instancing API alone should improve performance drastically. The improved occlusion culling could improve on the performance aswell.

Then we obviously have the newer Direct3D 11 features such as tessellation and the natively multithreaded renderer. The latter one could be written natively in the engine, but that still shouldn't be as efficient as directly in the OS-layer.
I still doubt programmers and graphical artists are capable or willing to use it efficiently though.

[msy]

I think DX10 only means if you even have X1950 XTX CF or WINDOWS XP, you can't play ARMA3 either.

[DMarkwick]

At last, since the tesselation is progressive as you move towards the object, it also really helps on the LOD swapping issues.

I don't know too much about tesselation & its abilities: would tesselation remove the need for LODs completely? Given that all models have LODs, including the highest resolution LOD, then maybe a model with ONLY the highest resolution LOD but with a suitable tesselation setting would solve a lot of problems?

[NodUnit]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uavLefzDuQ middle to end. If memory serves, the tesselation takes a high poly model but subtracts more and more the farther you are away, but as you get closer it adds more to keep the model looking as sharp as possible, it's sort of like the system doing the LOD control fluidly rather than jumping from mesh to mesh.

better wireframe example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkKtY2G3FbU and some others

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1117/1/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G9anRoYGko&feature=related

[PuFu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uavLefzDuQ middle to end. If memory serves, the tesselation takes a high poly model but subtracts more and more the farther you are away, but as you get closer it adds more to keep the model looking as sharp as possible.
we all know that. But would it mean that a native DX11 game could have it meshes in only one LOD (call it LOD 1.0), without the need of secondary visual ones?


I don't know too much about tesselation & its abilities: would tesselation remove the need for LODs completely? Given that all models have LODs, including the highest resolution LOD, then maybe a model with ONLY the highest resolution LOD but with a suitable tesselation setting would solve a lot of problems?
i have been asking myself the same thing since DX11 tessellation was announced, but i wasn't able to find an answer to it. We are talking here about DX11 native games only, not a mix of DX10 and 11 though

[Max Power]

I'm not too sure about the abilities of tessellation but from what I've gathered it really seems like something based on displacement maps, rather than reducing something down to one polygon. It seems like adding additional detail to LOD 1 is more or less what it's all about. Maybe there is information I'm missing, though.

[NodUnit]

I've heard of it being reference with displacement mapping on several occasions, but the tech won't matter if it's not implimented and judging by the soldiers pant leg here http://www.arma3.com/screenshots/scr03.jpg I doubt it is. Unless it is optional to use between DX9, 10 and 11, sole 11 features would be a risky cost for a business, I doubt the majority would own DX11 cards.

[Max Power]

Well it seems like they are not using displacement maps in that screen shot but perhaps it's not like I think and dx will automatically perform down modelling functions on a mesh. At any rate, only dx10 has been confirmed.

edit:

From http://www.realtimerendering.com/blog/tag/tessellation/



The tessellator is a fixed-function (but highly configurable) stage, which uses the tessellation factors to tessellate (subdivide) the patch into multiple triangle or quad primitives.

[NodUnit]

http://developer.download.nvidia.com/presentations/2008/GDC/Inst_Tess_Compatible.pdf I wonder if particle enhancements will be taken into account with the DX10 capabilities, soft particles, physics based particles http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtuDshl1Pgw 2:10 (I forgot how to set the timeline up in the post) and perhaps some reflection of environment in water.. I mean heck kegety made a mod for it to work in OFP, why can't it exist now? http://screenshots.filesnetwork.com/15/files2/49296_10.jpg

[SgtH3nry3]

I think DX10 only means if you even have X1950 XTX CF or WINDOWS XP, you can't play ARMA3 either.True. But try playing ArmA 2 with an X1950. Good luck. ;)

Windows XP. Are you serious? Poverty will be history and world peace will be truth at the same day Windows XP is whiped from the last hard disk.


True story.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uavLefzDuQ middle to end. If memory serves, the tesselation takes a high poly model but subtracts more and more the farther you are away, but as you get closer it adds more to keep the model looking as sharp as possible, it's sort of like the system doing the LOD control fluidly rather than jumping from mesh to mesh.

better wireframe example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkKtY2G3FbU and some others

http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1117/1/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4G9anRoYGko&feature=relatedTessellation could solve alot of bandwidth problems and TMU stress. No need for redrawing and compositing textures. It needs to be widespread first though.

The third generation of Direct3D 11 hardware is coming soon. Usually widespread adaption of computer hardware starts at the 3rd (or later) generation.

[NodUnit]

I sure do hope so, if nothing else the old crysis trick could probably be pulled, when they said you couldn't use DX10 unless you had vista and a DX10 card, and the community said "Oh heel no".

So DX10 features..volumetrics, either they are using clouds from TOH or made very similar ones, is this perhaps a very pretty skybox or are the clouds actually being effected by sunlight.

http://www.arma3.com/screenshots/scr04.jpg

http://www.arma3.com/screenshots/scr05.jpg

http://www.arma3.com/screenshots/scr03.jpg

http://www.arma3.com/screenshots/scr06.jpg

http://www.arma3.com/screenshots/scr09.jpg

http://www.arma3.com/screenshots/scr01.jpg

and TOH clouds

http://ironhammers.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/TakeOnHelicopters_Screenshot_01.png

[M0ldyM!LK]

Multi-threaded rendering --which IMO is the best feature of the new APIs-- would probably catch on quicker if vendors would bother to release drivers that support it.

[MadDogX]

The clouds seem to be particle based. Looking pretty good from some angles, but less so from others (mainly edge-on).

[MulleDK19]

DX10 and DX11 don't bring any visual improvements over DX9.

ARE YOU ON CRACK?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSXyztq_0uM&hd=1

[Fansadox]

ARE YOU ON CRACK?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSXyztq_0uM&hd=1

I think metalfatigue... ;)

Dx11 is a must imo and a huge improvement performance wise over Dx10. Dont even wanna start about Dx9..

[Cookieeater]

Might be too late, but maybe BIS should think about adding in OpenGL. It's more powerful, and it runs on all platforms(Windows, Mac, Linux)

http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/Why-you-should-use-OpenGL-and-not-DirectX

[PuFu]

would be cool, but i really doubt they'll take that road. besides, as you say, it is a bit late now i guess

[Dysta]

Might be too late, but maybe BIS should think about adding in OpenGL. It's more powerful, and it runs on all platforms(Windows, Mac, Linux)

http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/Why-you-should-use-OpenGL-and-not-DirectX

It costs thousands for OpenGL licensing to display/graphic cards...

[Cookieeater]

It costs thousands for OpenGL licensing to display/graphic cards...

http://www.opengl.org/about/licensing/

It costs money for hardware manufacturers, ATI and Nvidia, to implement OpenGL into their video cards, but for the end user who wants to program an engine in OpenGL, OpenGL is free.

Nvidia and ATI have OpenGL support for all of their cards. The new OpenGL 4.0 works on all DX11 cards. OpenGL 3.0 works on all DX10 cards out there. The difference is OpenGL runs on all platforms, while DirectX is secluded to M$'s new operating system every 3 years.

This means, you can get Tessellation on Windows 7, Windows Vista, Windows XP, Mac OSX, Linux, and nearly all other OSes out there that support OpenGL. While you only get Tessellation on Windows 7, with Direct X 11.

ZojsR4zwjt8
NH7hO2kSE4s

Plus the fact that OpenGL is faster and open source. And it has first access to new GPU features with vendor extensions. Tessellation, a feature M$ has been promoting for DX11 was possible on OpenGL 3 years beforehand as a vendor extension (http://developer.amd.com/gpu_assets/AMD_vertex_shader_tessellator.pdf).
http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/Why-you-should-use-OpenGL-and-not-DirectX

[Flash Thunder]

BIS is probably looking into adding it as a patch after Arma 3 ships like some other developers, wouldn't count on it though im happy with DX10 alone.

[dotted]

http://www.opengl.org/about/licensing/

It costs money for hardware manufacturers, ATI and Nvidia, to implement OpenGL into their video cards, but for the end user who wants to program an engine in OpenGL, OpenGL is free.

Nvidia and ATI have OpenGL support for all of their cards. The new OpenGL 4.0 works on all DX11 cards. OpenGL 3.0 works on all DX10 cards out there. The difference is OpenGL runs on all platforms, while DirectX is secluded to M$'s new operating system every 3 years.

This means, you can get Tessellation on Windows 7, Windows Vista, Windows XP, Mac OSX, Linux, and nearly all other OSes out there that support OpenGL. While you only get Tessellation on Windows 7, with Direct X 11.

ZojsR4zwjt8
NH7hO2kSE4s

Plus the fact that OpenGL is faster and open source. And it has first access to new GPU features with vendor extensions. Tessellation, a feature M$ has been promoting for DX11 was possible on OpenGL 3 years beforehand as a vendor extension (http://developer.amd.com/gpu_assets/AMD_vertex_shader_tessellator.pdf).
http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/Why-you-should-use-OpenGL-and-not-DirectX

OpenGL isn't "faster" it's just an API. As for tesselation, it has been available for a lot longer than that (today it has been removed) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TruForm

[Cookieeater]

As an API, OpenGL does have faster draw calls than DirectX according to Nvidia (ftp://download.nvidia.com/developer/presentations/2006/gdc/2006-GDC_OpenGL_NV_exts.pdf). And for tessellation, you're right it seems. The problem now though is that tessellation is back. On DX11, you can get tessellation on Windows 7. On OpenGL 4, you can get tessellation on your Windows 7, Vista, XP, Mac OSX, and Linux. Plus the fact that you're supporting open standards when you use OpenGL, while with DirectX, you're supporting a proprietary, closed API that only runs on Microsoft platforms meant to prevent new games from coming onto older, and other operating systems.

[Tom1]

OpenGL is heaps better. Seriously, some ps3 exlusives have better graphics than pc exclusives on DX11. Yet ps3 and xbox have shit graphics for mainstreme games due to being developed on xbox first with DX technology. OpenGL is the way to go.

[vfn4i83]

OpenGL find itself at the v4.1 with full support for shadder tesselation(like Dx), in fact today OpenGL is far ahead in integration with other api's, such full parallel calculation support, mobile and web support.

Hint here, get ready for DirectX12 next year

[Damu]

OpenGL is out of question even with consideration of its qualities.
It's huge amount of work/fixes/tweaks/optimization to rework engine from DX9 to DX11.
I can't imagine we'd make OpenGL in a real scope. ;)
And yes, we are targeting DX11, hovewer DX10 should be supported.
Although... We are not in the end, things/ideas can be changed.

[Cookieeater]

OpenGL is out of question even with consideration of its qualities.
It's huge amount of work/fixes/tweaks/optimization to rework engine from DX9 to DX11.
I can't imagine we'd make OpenGL in a real scope. ;)
And yes, we are targeting DX11, hovewer DX10 should be supported.
Although... We are not in the end, things/ideas can be changed.


The BI gods have spoken.
:yay:

Tis a shame OpenGL won't go in though.

[Damu]

Tis a shame OpenGL won't go in though.

Yesh. Unfortunatelly the best choice is not the optimal one always. Euphoria, OpenCL, Bullet, OpenGL... There are many many issues here. From technical over marketing up to licensing.

[Tom1]

The BI gods have spoken.

All hail.

Ander perfectly understandable if there are less obvious technical difficults with OpenGL, good luck making Arma3 Damu, have fun :)

[Max Power]

@<hidden>

Thank you so much for participating in the thread. It's always a thrill to have official word from the developers, whatever they may contain.

[Flashbang151]

...
And yes, we are targeting DX11, hovewer DX10 should be supported.
...

Damu, thank you so much for the information!

:ok:

[eddie247]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRpIhYwg7Tw&feature=related

[birtuma]

OpenGL is out of question even with consideration of its qualities.
It's huge amount of work/fixes/tweaks/optimization to rework engine from DX9 to DX11.
I can't imagine we'd make OpenGL in a real scope. ;)
And yes, we are targeting DX11, hovewer DX10 should be supported.
Although... We are not in the end, things/ideas can be changed.

What also should be mentioned... OpenGL is not comparable to DirectX. OpenGL is a graphics API (like Direct3D), DirectX is more than that.

[PuFu]

What also should be mentioned... OpenGL is not comparable to DirectX. OpenGL is a graphics API (like Direct3D), DirectX is more than that.
Very true, DX is yet another proprietary API, limiting the developer capability.

There is more to OpenGL than MS would admit. Games can be played on Linux and OSX, as long as those are not on DX.

[birtuma]

Very true, DX is yet another proprietary API, limiting the developer capability.

There is more to OpenGL than MS would admit. Games can be played on Linux and OSX, as long as those are not on DX.

"Games can be played on Linux etc." :D As a Linux user I see many OpenGL games which can not be played on Linux, multi platform compatibility is not really an argument for OpenGL.

As I said, OpenGL is not comparable to DirecX, in DirectX are many API's like DiectSound, DirectMusic, DirecInput, DirectPlay etc. Can OpenGL offer something for input, sounds, network play...? Ok, you can take OpenAL or SDL for sounds or input but they are still no real alternatives...

[Cookieeater]

In DirectX nearly everything is deprecated other else than Direct3d and DirectInput.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ee416796(VS.85).aspx

Therefore it's matched between Direct3D(video), DirectInput(input), vs OpenGL(video), OpenAL(audio), and SDL(Input).

Also by supporting OpenGL you reach a much larger desktop gaming audience, avoid getting locked into proprietary, closed standards, and promote healthy API competition.

[vfn4i83]

OpenGL, those guys arent complaining

field (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-J7pghQul-0g/Tcg1_Jau3HI/AAAAAAAAAGs/z4xl42P48KY/s1600/grass1n.jpg)

P.S.: Last time I have checked, they were running this on a 9600GT, can Dx top that?

[Flogger23m]

DX 10 confirmed and DX11 will likely be in? Sounds good to me. Hopefully this means performance will be increased?

[dunedain]

DX11 has been confirmed as well. You just to read the thread... ;)

[Cookieeater]

Yeah, Outerra is made in OpenGL 3.3. vfn4i83, DX10 can most likely substitute what OpenGl 3.3 does. It's just video evidence that can prove that OpenGL can handle really vast environments like ArmA can.
XGMs7Iem3Vg
SeoT_cz2nC0

http://www.outerra.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=247

[Steakslim]

DX11 has been confirmed as well. You just to read the thread... ;)

Not it hasn't. Unless a Dev said something this morning I haven't seen yet.

EDIT: N/m, I see a page back now. Should be interesting then.

[Derbysieger]

[20:06] <@<hidden>> DX11 sort of confirmed http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?p=1933404#post1933404

[Flash Thunder]

Awesome news BIS, its amazing how much work you guys are getting done with Arma 3!

DX10, DX11, physics and animations and all the content we can expect from a BIS game.

Cannot wait for some E3 gameplay and new information :cheers:

[Sethos]

Not into the whole OpenGL vs DirectX / Direct3D discussion but it looks like the Outerra engine was made with ArmA in mind :P Looks stunning, smooth and extremely versatile.

[elvinjones]

OpenGL is out of question even with consideration of its qualities.
It's huge amount of work/fixes/tweaks/optimization to rework engine from DX9 to DX11.
I can't imagine we'd make OpenGL in a real scope. ;)
And yes, we are targeting DX11, hovewer DX10 should be supported.
Although... We are not in the end, things/ideas can be changed.
HE's saying they could still rewrite it in OpenGL!!! :D

Maybe arma 5...

[Cookieeater]

If they rewrite it in OpenGL, please add in Linux support! ArmA II already runs on Linux as a server, it'll probably be easier to port therefore if OpenGL is added in.

Also Outerra - Himalayas trip in OpenGL 3.3, imagine what the engine could do with tessellation on the terrain:
gf8YQ9WSdiw

[Iroquois Pliskin]

I always loved OpenGL. The question here is: can you provide the SDKs to work with? Microsoft does have a monopoly on API, even more so after the introduction of their xBox and the demise of innovation, that had followed it.

[Cookieeater]

http://www.opengl.org/sdk/

[Flash Thunder]

The day that Arma has terrain meshes like in those Outtera videos....

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

I will probably be dead of a heart attack.

Weirdly when I have dreams of OA the terrain looks like that, flying over those mountain ranges and fastroping into a hot zone is too entertaining. :D

[7-75 Callaghan]

"OpenGL is out of question even with consideration of its qualities.
It's huge amount of work/fixes/tweaks/optimization to rework engine from DX9 to DX11.
I can't imagine we'd make OpenGL in a real scope.
And yes, we are targeting DX11, hovewer DX10 should be supported.
Although... We are not in the end, things/ideas can be changed."

I'm somewhat confused by his phrasing here. Especially considering that dx10 appears as a 'requirement'. Is Damu saying that the engine is being designed around dx11, with support for dx10? Or that it has been designed for dx10, and that they are currently working on a dx11 version? I couldn't care less about opengl, but dx11 is certainly a better choice than dx10 in the way it distributes data across the hardware.

[NodUnit]

If they rewrite it in OpenGL, please add in Linux support! ArmA II already runs on Linux as a server, it'll probably be easier to port therefore if OpenGL is added in.

Also Outerra - Himalayas trip in OpenGL 3.3, imagine what the engine could do with tessellation on the terrain:
gf8YQ9WSdiw

Huh, I thought the terrain was a mix of close tesselation and distant normal maps..

[PuFu]

have you seen this one :P
TN7XgLDCnpE

[NodUnit]

Hey wait Lemnos, isn't that the name of Arma3's island? Ugh, apache video..cockpit..must..damnit.

EDIT: Ah so Lemnos is the ACTUAL place, got it.

[maionaze]

Hey wait Lemnos, isn't that the name of Arma3's island?

No . The Arma 3 island is based on Lemnos .

[PuFu]

ArmA2 promo image: http://i.imgur.com/qDMnm.jpg

Outerra engine, same angle: http://www.outerra.com/shots/s-zeos3.jpg

[Innomadic]

OpenGL, those guys arent complaining

field (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-J7pghQul-0g/Tcg1_Jau3HI/AAAAAAAAAGs/z4xl42P48KY/s1600/grass1n.jpg)

P.S.: Last time I have checked, they were running this on a 9600GT, can Dx top that?

As far as i'm aware, that grass is actually a 2D image laid across the landscape, and thus the grass is not actually there, just the lighting makes it appear to...ok i'm not explaining this well.

Basically, its not as good as the screenshots put it. I do personally love Outerra and the possibilities, however its not THAT good.....yet.

[NodUnit]

Oh neat..aren't that something...Oooh waves. ^ you mean grass as normal maps with clumpy effects to make it appear less flat?

[Innomadic]

Oh neat..aren't that something...Oooh waves. ^ you mean grass as normal maps with clumpy effects to make it appear less flat?

I guess thats it. Basically Arma grass is 3D, flattens out when you crawl through it etc.

Really the killer of frames in RV is the vegetation, which is why Outerra can run so magnificently on such low specs. Its not as complicated.

[NodUnit]

Pretty much, it's been proven in Arma1 that if you remove normal maps from vegetation the game runs better, or reduce the normal texture size, the same rules may not apply to the RV engine but a person from crytek said that normal maps used twice the memory as diffuse maps so they made then half the size IE 2048x1024 diffuse and a 1024x512 normal map.

[Innomadic]

Pretty much, it's been proven in Arma1 that if you remove normal maps from vegetation the game runs better, or reduce the normal texture size.

Of course, i ran the low veg LOD mod when i ran Arma 2 on my BIIIIG screen before i knew i could downgrade slightly and pick up the details and frames on the way.

All i'm sayin is that Outerra may look like sex but you'll wanna kick it out of bed in the morning.

[Max Power]

"OpenGL is out of question even with consideration of its qualities.
It's huge amount of work/fixes/tweaks/optimization to rework engine from DX9 to DX11.
I can't imagine we'd make OpenGL in a real scope.
And yes, we are targeting DX11, hovewer DX10 should be supported.
Although... We are not in the end, things/ideas can be changed."

I'm somewhat confused by his phrasing here. Especially considering that dx10 appears as a 'requirement'. Is Damu saying that the engine is being designed around dx11, with support for dx10? Or that it has been designed for dx10, and that they are currently working on a dx11 version? I couldn't care less about opengl, but dx11 is certainly a better choice than dx10 in the way it distributes data across the hardware.

My interpretation of what he says is Dx10 for sure, and Dx11 is a goal they are working towards.

[Bengie25]

Very true, DX is yet another proprietary API, limiting the developer capability.

There is more to OpenGL than MS would admit. Games can be played on Linux and OSX, as long as those are not on DX.

Back when development for DX11 emulation was being started for Galium and Wine, the Linux developers said that DX11 is well structured and nicer to work with than OpenGL.

Now, OpenGL does support multi-threading in the drivers to help speed driver thing up, but it does NOT support multi-threading from API calls. When you instantiate the OpenGL object, it may only be only called by a single thread at a time, which is different than the driver threading some of its own work in the background, which does nothing to speed up drawing calls from the user code. Calling OpenGL and OpenCL in the same program has large switching penalties, DirectX11 has no such penalty using DirectCompute.

To put multi-threading into context, Civ5 with pre-multi-threading nVidia drivers shows about ~5 of 12 cores being used, and switching to the newly released nVidia drivers that support Multi-threading shows all 12 cores running 100% and almost a double in FPS.

Yes, threading matters.

OpenGL and OpenCL are aimed towards being backwards compatible and professional rendering, not games. There are no current plans to merge GL/CL and properly threading GL. DirectX will be the better API where multi-threaded and where GGPU matters, which is nearly every big name game in the next few years.

OpenGL will eventually catch up, but it's going to first fall being over the next year or two before playing catch up. It took MS a few years to get DX11 setup to support threading properly, I would assume it won't be just a few month project for OpenGL and they haven't even started yet.

[vfn4i83]

As far as i'm aware, that grass is actually a 2D image laid across the landscape, and thus the grass is not actually there, just the lighting makes it appear to...ok i'm not explaining this well.

Basically, its not as good as the screenshots put it. I do personally love Outerra and the possibilities, however its not THAT good.....yet.


Yah I get it, like the old days where all tex were fotorealistic(o wait!). But you got remind that they are working with shadders that allow details down to centimeters, so that solution is quite interesting. Many games has grass, all look like cardboards, Outerra doesnt have(from what we have seem so far) and the terrain looks like nothing else (I let you put FlightSim X here).

[gammadust]

OpenGL is out of question even with consideration of its qualities.
It's huge amount of work/fixes/tweaks/optimization [already] to rework engine from DX9 to DX11.
I can't imagine we'd make OpenGL in a real scope. ;)
And yes, we are targeting DX11, hovewer DX10 should be supported.
Although... We are not in the end, things/ideas can be changed.

Bold and brackets are mine. I don't see much ambiguity here:

BIS is updating their engine straight to DX11, they will have DX10 compatibility in mind along the way. Something might force them to switch target to DX10 and have DX11 as an extra instead, OpenGL won't be a target no matter what.

This is how I interpret these words.

Yes I would like OpenGL, mostly from an ideological standing alone. In practice it makes sense for BIS to stay DX.

Tesselation as a solution to LOD switching is interesting, somehow I suppose we would have displacement texture switching instead. Is it? Maybe it allows for softer transitions (what about animating textures, procedural ones seams possible). And when in DX10 wouldn't we still need model LODS.

Anyway I am excited with the news! :bounce3:

[Cookieeater]

Back when development for DX11 emulation was being started for Galium and Wine, the Linux developers said that DX11 is well structured and nicer to work with than OpenGL.

Now, OpenGL does support multi-threading in the drivers to help speed driver thing up, but it does NOT support multi-threading from API calls. When you instantiate the OpenGL object, it may only be only called by a single thread at a time, which is different than the driver threading some of its own work in the background, which does nothing to speed up drawing calls from the user code. Calling OpenGL and OpenCL in the same program has large switching penalties, DirectX11 has no such penalty using DirectCompute.

To put multi-threading into context, Civ5 with pre-multi-threading nVidia drivers shows about ~5 of 12 cores being used, and switching to the newly released nVidia drivers that support Multi-threading shows all 12 cores running 100% and almost a double in FPS.

Yes, threading matters.

OpenGL and OpenCL are aimed towards being backwards compatible and professional rendering, not games. There are no current plans to merge GL/CL and properly threading GL. DirectX will be the better API where multi-threaded and where GGPU matters, which is nearly every big name game in the next few years.

OpenGL will eventually catch up, but it's going to first fall being over the next year or two before playing catch up. It took MS a few years to get DX11 setup to support threading properly, I would assume it won't be just a few month project for OpenGL and they haven't even started yet.

I'd still use OpenGL over DirectX purely over due to cross platform support and ideological reasons. OpenGL could possibly catch up very soon though due to mobile devices(Android, iPhone) that are becoming very popular recently, with many games being made with OpenGL ES. Same with WebGL. If DirectX opens itself up to mobile devices and then pretty much other OSes, it's a win-win situation for everyone.

[Innomadic]

Yah I get it, like the old days where all tex were fotorealistic(o wait!). But you got remind that they are working with shadders that allow details down to centimeters, so that solution is quite interesting. Many games has grass, all look like cardboards, Outerra doesnt have(from what we have seem so far) and the terrain looks like nothing else (I let you put FlightSim X here).

Yes it doesn't look like 2D cutouts however what is it like when you get up nice and close to it? It looks good at distance yes, but up close, i'm doubtful.

[MadDogX]

BIS is updating their engine straight to DX11, they will have DX10 compatibility in mind along the way. Something might force them to switch target to DX10 and have DX11 as an extra instead, OpenGL won't be a target no matter what.

This is how I interpret these words.
Yup, that's the most sensible interpretation of Damu's post that I've seen.

[Joshua the Grizzly]

DX10 and DX11 don't bring any visual improvements over DX9.
They don't magically speed up games by 50% either.

They may as well just double the polygons on their models and you will have the same sweet performance hit as with "hw tessellation".

Not entirely. There are some visual improvements,but the engine will have to be build around DX11 if you ever want to utilize those.

[CarlosTex]

Yesh. Unfortunatelly the best choice is not the optimal one always. Euphoria, OpenCL, Bullet, OpenGL... There are many many issues here. From technical over marketing up to licensing.


Interesting post... Would be Euphoria issues be regarded as licensing only or technical? Or maybe both?

[vfn4i83]

Yes it doesn't look like 2D cutouts however what is it like when you get up nice and close to it? It looks good at distance yes, but up close, i'm doubtful.

I still buy it

http://youtu.be/d-ghwgcYeVA


And guys. Get over it. They are targeting Dx10 but using Dx11 api simple as that, I personally dont want to see those stupid shadder model 5 in use till the full 64bit thing really kicks in, the hardware is been squeezed at present time. All that I ask, is that BIA devs close they ears to those Battlefielders consolishers and dont hear they're claims for another dumbed down shooter, to fill the gap till the next cod comes out.

[gnear]

I'd rather grass like in that demo than the stuff thats around now in arma/arma2 to be in arma3 >.> maybe i'm just old school / upclose detail is all fine if it doesnt affect the gameplay, but currently it does, which is a shame.

[jonneymendoza]

DX11 brings a lot to the table and i belioeve battlefield 3 is ditching dx9 altogether and going straight for dx10/dx11 which appears Arma 3 is doing.

About time we ditch dx9 IMO.

[MadDogX]

DX11 brings a lot to the table and i belioeve battlefield 3 is ditching dx9 altogether and going straight for dx10/dx11 which appears Arma 3 is doing.

About time we ditch dx9 IMO.
Windows XP is also ten years old already. I don't blame devs for ditching that bitch.

[ScratcH1]

DX11 brings a lot to the table and i belioeve battlefield 3 is ditching dx9 altogether and going straight for dx10/dx11 which appears Arma 3 is doing.

About time we ditch dx9 IMO.

It was only a matter of time until games will be developed for DX10/11

[Sickboy]

Windows XP is also ten years old already. I don't blame devs for ditching that bitch.Absolutely, XP was great but you can't keep living in the past forever.

[Joshua the Grizzly]

Considering how beautifull Crysis 2 and The Witcher 2 look whilst using only DX9, and the fact that both games have excellent performance, whilst quite a few DX10 and DX11 games do not (Such as Clear Sky, and Crysis 1...) I'd rather hope that Bohemia would stick to DX9.

[PuFu]

Considering how beautifull Crysis 2 and The Witcher 2 look whilst using only DX9, and the fact that both games have excellent performance, whilst quite a few DX10 and DX11 games do not (Such as Clear Sky, and Crysis 1...) I'd rather hope that Bohemia would stick to DX9.

1. you are comparing different things, from scope to size.
2. DX9 is already out of the question.

System requirements
Operating system: Windows 7 / Vista
Processor: Intel Core i5 or AMD Athlon Phenom X4 or faster
Memory: 2 GB
Video card: Nvidia Geforce GTX 260 or ATI Radeon HD 5770 with Shader Model 3 and 896 MB VRAM, or faster
DVD: Dual Layer compatible
Hard disk: 15 GB free space
Other: DirectX® 10

[NodUnit]

Crysis 2 performed better due to a multitude a reasons the most of which being that it was designed for consoles first as opposed to Crysis 1.

The community found that many of the textures even the ones reused from the first, were half their original size. It was also very corridor by comparison and by the nature of the map I imagine they used vision blockers any way they could (originally they lined hills and certain areas, basicly makes absolutely sure that nothing beyond gets rendered from X viewpoint)

[SgtH3nry3]

Crysis 2 is anything but beautiful compared to Crysis. I'm not really talking about visuals in general but graphics relative to map size.

First of all it's way too foggy, you notice the engine makes heavy use of culling when your PC barely makes 20 FPS and you turn around quickly. Which is logical, considering the fact it has to run on memory-poor consoles.
Also various displacement mapping techniques were dropped.

The fact that an engine uses Direct3D 11 doesn't make it automatically nicer to look at. You need good artwork aswell, that's what Crytek is also very good at.

It just gives developer the option to make a certain shader effect easier to implement, with less overhead (better performance) for the user. And it makes sure the developer can access new tricks on your (graphics) hardware.

[Innomadic]

Absolutely, XP was great but you can't keep living in the past forever.

Until i get the money to build a new machine, i'll stick with XP :yay:

[jonneymendoza]

Until i get the money to build a new machine, i'll stick with XP :yay:

xp is a software not a hardware.

If you are playing arma 2 already on medium settings at least then you are already gaming on dx10 or dx11 hdd

[Sethos]

Until i get the money to build a new machine, i'll stick with XP :yay:


Get a job.

[Steakslim]

Get a job.

That's exactly what I did when I wanted a new pc lol. Now if they would just stop laying me off I would be rather well set.

[Bengie25]

I'd still use OpenGL over DirectX purely over due to cross platform support and ideological reasons. OpenGL could possibly catch up very soon though due to mobile devices(Android, iPhone) that are becoming very popular recently, with many games being made with OpenGL ES. Same with WebGL. If DirectX opens itself up to mobile devices and then pretty much other OSes, it's a win-win situation for everyone.

GL is awesome in that it truly works on nearly every platform and is extendable.

What I'm looking at is taking full advantage of modern multi-core CPU and the newest GPU graphics abilities.

There is a huge market for indie style games and games that run on DX9 gen cards; OpenGL should be the choice over DX9. For big game releases, DX is *finally* ahead of the "competition". DX12 is scheduled to come out in a year or two, should be interesting, but not much info yet.

I just don't like the idea of being a computer enthusiast, dropping $300 on a video card, a multi-core CPU and not being able to take advantage of it because most games are targeted towards 9 year old tech (DX9 came out Dec '02). Threading and GGPU acceleration has been around for a few years, it's sick how long it's taking.

AMD plans on releasing a 20core CPU next year on 28nm. Intel will be on 14nm in the year after, which can pack 4 times as transistors in the same space. We'll probably 32-48 core cpus in 2013-2014 and OpenGL will be limiting games to ~4-6 cores because it doesn't support threading correctly.

They need to start caring about games, not just professional rendering. I would love to switch to Linux on my desktop, but I won't give up my bleeding edge game tech to do it.

[vfn4i83]

GL is awesome in that it truly works on nearly every platform and is extendable.

What I'm looking at is taking full advantage of modern multi-core CPU and the newest GPU graphics abilities.

There is a huge market for indie style games and games that run on DX9 gen cards; OpenGL should be the choice over DX9. For big game releases, DX is *finally* ahead of the "competition". DX12 is scheduled to come out in a year or two, should be interesting, but not much info yet.

I just don't like the idea of being a computer enthusiast, dropping $300 on a video card, a multi-core CPU and not being able to take advantage of it because most games are targeted towards 9 year old tech (DX9 came out Dec '02). Threading and GGPU acceleration has been around for a few years, it's sick how long it's taking.

AMD plans on releasing a 20core CPU next year on 28nm. Intel will be on 14nm in the year after, which can pack 4 times as transistors in the same space. We'll probably 32-48 core cpus in 2013-2014 and OpenGL will be limiting games to ~4-6 cores because it doesn't support threading correctly.

They need to start caring about games, not just professional rendering. I would love to switch to Linux on my desktop, but I won't give up my bleeding edge game tech to do it.


But it certainly is not. And about XP been old; lack of proper updates is killing the dam thing, thats were Linux is taking ahead.

[Debo]

so the specs that were released were only the minimal specs requirement?

[Assasine]

ArmA 3 doesn´t need DX11....
The most ArmA Players use to disable grass.......or set the vegetation to low.......for better see the enemies.
Also if you´re in a fight.....you will never see the whole increasement of the graphic power of ArmA 3.....your most concentation is focused to find your enemies.....:)

[Liquidpinky]

ArmA 3 doesn´t need DX11....
The most ArmA Players use to disable grass.......or set the vegetation to low.......for better see the enemies.
Also if you´re in a fight.....you will never see the whole increasement of the graphic power of ArmA 3.....your most concentation is focused to find your enemies.....:)

Some of us still play with everything maxxed, even knowing others have everything to minimum to try and get some edge.

I like to keep it real. :)

[Tonci87]

^This Disable Gras? No Thanks, I like the challenge

[Steakslim]

I played all through ArmA1 with grass off. I have to be really desperate now in ArmA2/OA/CO to turn off the grass. It looks too nice to turn off now lol. Looks like by the screenshots it'll be the same for ArmA3 for me.

[SgtH3nry3]

The grass adds a certain challenge to the game. For me playing with grass on is much more fun as the enemy is harder too see.

[2nd Ranger]

Today I saw two separate DX10/11 comparison images from Stalker. They were both a split image of a different guy, DX10 on one side and DX11 enabled on the other. The only visible difference in both images was that his gas mask filter was more rounded with DX11 enabled. That's about as much as I know about DX11.

[jhoson14]

You should Try some comparison Between metro 2033 DX9 and DX11 pics.

[Innomadic]

Get a job.

Getting kinda tired of saying "i know that" right about now...



xp is a software not a hardware.

I am aware of this fact, but if i don't have enough for a rig, and saving specifically for it, how exactly will i pay for a new OS? Or why would i want to waste an install on this POS machine...

Point is, i'm updating all at once, no need for 7 atm. Not worth it.

[Celery]

Get a job.

A rather mean-spirited thing to say these days.

[Flash Thunder]

Today I saw two separate DX10/11 comparison images from Stalker. They were both a split image of a different guy, DX10 on one side and DX11 enabled on the other. The only visible difference in both images was that his gas mask filter was more rounded with DX11 enabled. That's about as much as I know about DX11.

Most of it isnt visually noticed its all under the hood. ;)

[Infam0us]

Get a job.

No you ...

[PurePassion]

come on guys, stop trolling and spamming!!!

Please dont let this become another trollthread caused by Arma III, this is not the COD community, were all proper guys here!

What I think is very interesting about DX10-11 features and Arma III is Terrain Tessellation (http://media.moddb.com/images/games/1/12/11525/terrain_simp11.jpg)

This would make much more realistic terrains possible.

[PuFu]

only games aimed directly towards DX11(as in exclusive DX11) would feature things like tesselation. which is not the case with A3, so i wouldn't be expecting that, terrain or other content.

afaik, there is no game that features tesselation features atm, nor planned

[Max Power]

AvP had mesh tessellation, so did BlOps... or are we talking about two different things?

[PurePassion]

regarding this (http://bulk2.destructoid.com/ul/201538-/Arma3_screenshot_04-noscale.jpg) and this (http://www.bluesnews.com/screenshots/games/arma3/20110519/arma3_screenshot_05.jpg) picture i also dont think we are going to see Terrain Tesselation in Arma III

but multiple games feature tesselation (including terrain) so i dont understand what you mean

[gammadust]

regarding this (http://bulk2.destructoid.com/ul/201538-/Arma3_screenshot_04-noscale.jpg) and this (http://www.bluesnews.com/screenshots/games/arma3/20110519/arma3_screenshot_05.jpg) picture i also dont think we are going to see Terrain Tesselation in Arma III

but multiple games feature tesselation (including terrain) so i dont understand what you mean

the first ss also shows even our "Hamok" model does not currently benefit from tesselation, it still shows hard edges in supposedly round corners.

I think PuFu means that since only DX11 allows for tesselation on GPU, and Arma 3 has DX10 as a minimum, BIS has to choose for the lowest common denominator/feature (DX10).

But techniques to implement tesselation in DX10 cards do exist (Instanced Tesselation (http://tsedrive.com/2010/02/11/nvidia-demonstrates-directx-10-tessellation/)), and allow for LOD optimizations along with (not totaly sure about the next one!) unified asset creation for both DX paths.

[EricM]

The game is due in ONE YEAR, so by the time, I'm pretty confident they will add more DX11 features along the way.

Among others, I'm pretty confident tesselation and real displacement mapping is high on their list, at least for the terrain, since they already have implemented parallax occlusion mapping to fake it in Arma 2. Instead of doing some clever software hacks to make it look like real displacement, you can have the real deal done by the GPU...

[Steakslim]

Perhaps, by a long stretch they'll have an actual DX11 mode in the game for those who have the hardware to take advantage. But i'm afraid that may be too much work for them in the long run, especially with a year to go, and we don't even know what stage of completion the game is even at yet.

[PuFu]

Among others, I'm pretty confident tesselation and real displacement mapping is high on their list, at least for the terrain, since they already have implemented parallax occlusion mapping to fake it in Arma 2. Instead of doing some clever software hacks to make it look like real displacement, you can have the real deal done by the GPU...
displacement map (together with tessellation, otherwise it wouldn't work as intended) is one of those things that could change the amount of REAL detail available in video games. Although available and present for some time in movies and cg images (i have use it myself in several uni projects), this is still one of those features available exclusivly via DX11 api

[SgtH3nry3]

Look at it this way. Next year has already the third and perhaps even fourth generation DirectX 11 capable hardware on it's agenda.

It's not like it's brand new or something. You probably can't even buy first-gen DirectX 11 hardware by the time ArmA 3 is released.

[rmarduk]

I hope Arma 3 will be using all that Direct 11 gives. Because if not it will be a massive
failure.

[DMarkwick]

I hope Arma 3 will be using all that Direct 11 gives. Because if not it will be a massive
failure.

*snort*

:D

[PuFu]

I hope Arma 3 will be using all that Direct 11 gives. Because if not it will be a massive
failure.
just like your first post on those
forums

[MadDogX]

*snort*

:D
Assuming that was a snort of derision, this post has my full approval.

[CameronMcDonald]

I hope Arma 3 will be using all that Direct 11 gives. Because if not it will be a massive
failure.

Another Post of the Decade candidate, if only for the awesome use of the
enter key. :bored: :lecture:

[Laqueesha]

I hope Arma 3 will be using all that Direct 11 gives. Because if not it will be a massive
failure.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk36/cottrellh/lolwut.jpg

[Max Power]

Another Post of the Decade candidate, if only for the awesome use of the
enter key. :bored: :lecture:

Not bad for a first or second post!

[xman1]

Very wrong in fact.

I'd have to agree with him between DX9 and DX10. However, DX10.1 and DX11 have a noticeable improvement over DX9.

Dirt 2 is a great game to see the difference. DX9 looks bland. DX11 looks alive and real.

Example of something I recorded in DX11:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y3E6m58GPI

-X

[Flash Thunder]

I hope Arma 3 will be using all that Direct 11 gives. Because if not it will be a massive
failure.

I think you're slightly retarded...

[Sethos]

I'd have to agree with him between DX9 and DX10. However, DX10.1 and DX11 have a noticeable improvement over DX9.

Dirt 2 is a great game to see the difference. DX9 looks bland. DX11 looks alive and real.
[/url]



Wut? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3zfb8lLDH0&feature=related

[Liquidpinky]

Wut? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3zfb8lLDH0&feature=related

Bad example, maybe should look at some of these instead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhhJwGKV-yw Keep an eye on the masonry and tiles etc once in close.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In74siITIAw

If any of you have a DX11 card then try unigine heaven benchmark and you can switch tessalation mode on the fly to see the real difference.

[Leon86]

the usual difference between dx10 and dx11 is better shadows on 11 and tesselation. I dont care much for that.

dx11 has also implemented ways make the render thread more multithreadable and drastically reducing the work for the main thread. For arma this could be huge, but it's also extra programming work, afaik civ5 is currently the only game that uses it.

[Steakslim]

Bad example, maybe should look at some of these instead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhhJwGKV-yw Keep an eye on the masonry and tiles etc once in close.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In74siITIAw

If any of you have a DX11 card then try unigine heaven benchmark and you can switch tessalation mode on the fly to see the real difference.



Especially on that dragon.

[Liquidpinky]

Especially on that dragon.

You should see it on the extreme tesselation setting. ;)


Tessellation also reduces file size for models, which then reduces loading times, which benefits games like Arma that has large streaming terrains.

Not to mention the difference between DX9 and DX11 beauty is around only a 1FPS cost on that Unigine benchmark, over the space of bench it will be more but while watching it that seems the case..
That is at 5940x1080, Anistropic at 16 and AA on 2 and normal tessellation level.

Also, did I mention I absolutely hate hexagonal wheels.

[Steakslim]

You should see it on the extreme tesselation setting. ;)

I have lol


Tessellation also reduces file size for models, which then reduces loading times, which benefits games like Arma that has large streaming terrains.

Not to mention the difference between DX9 and DX11 beauty is around only a 1FPS cost on that Unigine benchmark, over the space of bench it will be more but while watching it that seems the case..
That is at 5940x1080, Anistropic at 16 and AA on 2 and normal tessellation level.

Also, did I mention I absolutely hate hexagonal wheels.

Yeah i got more of a performance drop from the Ambient Occlusion settings turned on rather than the tessellation, and guess which one looked better :P

[PuFu]

Especially on that dragon.
That dragon changes shape because of the displacement map, and not its tesselation.
try this on your own PC, and mess with the 2 slider, you'll understand how it work:
http://developer.download.nvidia.com/SDK/10.5/Samples/InstancedTessellation.zip

[Steakslim]

That dragon changes shape because of the displacement map, and not its tesselation.
try this on your own PC, and mess with the 2 slider, you'll understand how it work:
http://developer.download.nvidia.com/SDK/10.5/Samples/InstancedTessellation.zip

I see what you mean.

[Max Power]

You should see it on the extreme tesselation setting. ;)


Tessellation also reduces file size for models, which then reduces loading times, which benefits games like Arma that has large streaming terrains

It seems like it reduces file sizes for very detailed models, not for polygon reduced LODs. You might be able to get away with a slightly less detailed LOD 1, but the tessellation itself is used to increase the smoothness and detail of the model's silhouette when compared to a similar model with normal maps. It's not like you can tessellate a 250 polygong LOD 5 all the way up to a 15 million polygon sculpture. The lower LODs and all that other under the hood stuff will still need to be there. I think that tessellation will help keep file sizes lower as you increase detail but I don't think it's a huge help if you want to reduce detail from your primary level of detail.

[PuFu]

after reading through the dx11 refs, that's the same conclusion i came up with as well. it can blend the lods better between them if you need to, but you still need the keyframes.

[gammadust]

I should remind you guys... Instanced Tesselation is a technique that enables tesselation in the DX10 path. It is redundant in DX11 context which supports the feature natively, with no workarounds.
Let me also add that this method is indeed still affected by a "stepping" side effect (similar to LOD switching), whereas the native DX11 is totally smooth.

[PuFu]

and I am well aware of that. the link I posted is a sample demo so one can understand that the highly detailed geometry is drawn basen on the combination of displacement map and tesselation.

[Sethos]

Bad example, maybe should look at some of these instead.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dhhJwGKV-yw Keep an eye on the masonry and tiles etc once in close.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In74siITIAw

If any of you have a DX11 card then try unigine heaven benchmark and you can switch tessalation mode on the fly to see the real difference.

I fully know the difference, I work with both.

Was replying to the guy's idiotic statement.