Stealth Kills?

[Blackfox34]

Behind enemy lines...1 guy left alive. Does that mean we are getting proper stealth aspects and stealth kills. I've always wanted that from the ARMA games is to be able to take someone out completely silent.

[aidas2]

Yea, like with a knife or melee combat. They finaly added proper water and we can even dive in it. They'r doing a new anim system so why not add some 1337 stealth kills :D

[PuFu]

i smell the knife arguments starting yet again...damn consoles games

[dale0404]

Sounds to much like COD to me, urrgh!!

[SASrecon]

A scripted mission/chapter a bit like cod4 ghillie in the mist would certainly provide a suitable contrast to what looks like a fairly typical free-roamy campaign from BIS. I do agree with you that stealth kills certainly need looking at in such an epic-looking project!
Maybe not knife kills but a more enhanced stealthy aura/atmosphere about some missions :rolleyes: but if they can do it in opflash (lone wolf parts) I guess they won't have any trouble doing it in what looks to be like a campaign aspiring to ofp :)
I really hope that there are more than just a couple of recon missions; didn't really like the gun-ho aspect of Harvest Red, after all they were a marine fireteam, I would've expected more sneaking around..

[ProfTournesol]

Sounds to much like COD to me, urrgh!!

Pffff.... same argument again and again... as if COD invented close combat with knife or bayonet... :icon_ohmygod:

[CMB Unit 01]

I see very few scenarios where you'd need to use stealth kills in this series. If they add it, they add it. But I'm happy for them to work on the core mechanics.

[Blackfox34]

I'm not talking about running around knifing people like COD. I'm talking about you or you and your squad want to infiltrate and enemy position and either don't have silenced weapons or constraints which make the need for you to use stealth. Where you can sneak up on enemy's and have an animation or action to perform a stealth kill.

Sometimes it seems as if the AI have eyeballs in a line around there head that enable them to see form all directions, make it near impossible to perform a proper stealth kill.

This is not only a cool feature, but adds immersion for smaller units and teams who need to work in the cover of silence.

[wolfbite]

Rock to the back of the head!!!

[dale0404]

Ok that could possibly work if done properly, no arcade stuff please!

[metalcraze]

Behind enemy lines...1 guy left alive. Does that mean we are getting proper stealth aspects and stealth kills. I've always wanted that from the ARMA games is to be able to take someone out completely silent.

You can do that since OFP



Without any stupidity from consoles a la "press X for the Stealth Kill! AWSUM!"

[aidas2]

i smell the knife arguments starting yet again...damn consoles games

The only console I had was PS1, since then I use Pc. What's wrong with having stealth knife or melee kills anyway? Spec ops train in hand to hand combat not for nothing you know... I'd rather use a knife kill than a pistol, which might miss and get attention of the guards and all that crap...

[John Stalvern]

Melee would be nice, get some proper bayonet action.

[Daniel]

Melee would be nice, get some proper bayonet action.

That's the spirit. Forget knives. :p

[Blackfox34]

In real life there is a huge difference between shooting a gun, shooting a gun with a silencer, and using a stealth kill.

Just because they add a melee feature, doesn't mean you are turning this into COD and all of a sudden 100 million people will play this game. The same community will be here with the same tactics and knowledge that a knife/melee is only useful in a few scenarios.

A knife wont make the game any more or less arcadey.

---------- Post added at 12:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:04 PM ----------

Bayonets would be awesome too, but they are not as prevalent as they used to be.


The action could be limited to special forces units or something, who would normally use it.

[PuFu]

depends on the way it is implemented.
Some live with the feeling that a knife is one strike one kill(not really their fault since every other game portrays it that way), which far from true. The other implementaiton is ussually the scripted one: press red square button for l33t knife kill animation

[Choki]

Stealth kills? In real life no, In call of duty yes. I doubt anyone will not listen to you walk into him. Thunder attacks are used in reality

[ProfTournesol]

Thunder attacks are used in reality

Thunder attacks ? :16_6_8:

[Blackfox34]

What do you mean in real life no? I'm not saying I would like this as...

See Enemy.
Run Up to enemy as fast as possible.
Press V to knife.



I'm saying sneak up behind enemy, slit throat or break neck. Just how they train the Spec Ops to do.

Sure they are limited to a few scenarios and it's highly unlikely that they will have a hand to hand combat system or anything like that. It's like a pistol in that it's another tool in your arsenal and while it may not be the most powerful option, it can save your life if you need it to.

[metalcraze]

You don't see specops running around with knives on their missions. They carry firearms.
Knife usage is very rare

I'm talking about IRL of course, not "holy crap COD awsum and then I saw some akshun hollywood movie!!"

[Blackfox34]

Think about it like this too. They showed a SS of underwater swimming. It has almost no use in a combat situation minus, STEALTH insertion, or STEALTH demolitions or swimming after your ship just got blown to hell.

---------- Post added at 12:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:17 PM ----------

I'm not saying a knife if all you have to use. I'm saying it's an option. And If you see any spec ops in the field I will guarantee you they have a knife sheathed.

No one runs around with a knife out! As momma always said don't run with sharp objects :)

[HyperU2]

You don't see specops running around with knives on their missions. They carry firearms.
Knife usage is very rare

I'm talking about IRL of course, not "holy crap COD awsum and then I saw some akshun hollywood movie!!"

Yeah like that Somali pirate a SEAL stabbed to death in February. That never happens.

[Choki]

Thunder attacks ? :16_6_8:

Yes in translation is thunder is how we call them here

[[GR]Operative]

You are a specialized super soldier from UK (yeah, why no UK forces in the SSs?), you can hit people from hundred meters away, you may have all the equipment you want, it takes a few seconds to attach a suppressor to the barrel of most guns. Why would you want to sneak around so you can make a kill only some meters away if you can make a "safer" kill hundred meters away?

[Blackfox34]

True.

Look at the description of the campaign.




A small group of Special Forces and Researchers are sent to a Mediterranean island deep behind enemy lines. However, the mission is compromised and the task force destroyed, leaving Cpt. Scott Miller washed ashore upon the hostile island. In his effort to carry out the mission, he will face the dangers of modern warfare, an unforgiving environment, and the consequences of his own decisions...

Survive in the rich & authentic environment
Adapt to the unsurpassed experience of modern ground combat
Win in the open-ended & story-driven campaign



Survive. A basic survival tool is a knife. This is why all pilots, spec ops and most soldiers carry them. They aren't necessarily mean to be used for killing, but if you need to use it you will.

The story focuses on 1 Man getting stranded. Most likely his m4 will have been lost and he will have to use stealth to take out his combatants. I'm guessing either by hand or by knife.


Stealth is an aspect of a lot of Special Ops missons and therefore should be a part of the game.

[PuFu]

@<hidden>: how old are you mate? Did you have your basic military training yet?

[Blackfox34]

Combine this with the SS's of the Underwater diving lead me to believe there will be a higher focus on stealth, since thats one of the only purposes why you would need to have that in the game.



Why go up close when you can take the far away shot? What if you miss and blow your chance?

Why go underwater when you can take a helicopter in? Stealth.

[ProfTournesol]

Operative;1928828']You are a specialized super soldier from UK (yeah, why no UK forces in the SSs?), you can hit people from hundred meters away, you may have all the equipment you want, it takes a few seconds to attach a suppressor to the barrel of most guns. Why would you want to sneak around so you can make a kill only some meters away if you can make a "safer" kill hundred meters away?

Mmmm...

(1) Because its a NEW game which can offer NEW abilities to players
(2) Because its a moddable game which allows lot's of things (http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=99111), the more the vanilla engines offers, the better it is

[Hamm]

I can see several uses for stealth kills with a knife or just breaking necks especially in tactical TvTs.

[Hedo]

I know this has been said many times, but: How many times did you have an opportunity to do a stealth kill in Arma? (scripted situations don't count) Even if the enemy didn't hear you coming from behind...

I'm sure this is on BIS' list of "nice to have things", but I don't see many reasons for implementing it.

[aidas2]

People these days play too much cod and envision knife as some uber leet awesum special kill that everyone will praise you for. In Arma you might need to use it one or two times, depending on situation, it doesn't mean that you will always run around with knife in ur hand, doing 360 jumps and knifing everyone or throwing knifes at everyone... The campaing is about stealth, so if you loose your gun, the only way to get one is take from the enemy, you aint gonna kick him in the balls. The main char is a SBS guy so he will know how to handle a knife or melee combat and use it whenever he can.
Same logic can be applied to diving aswell. Why add it? It was never in arma so why add it now? It wont give you anything besides maybe one or two missions anyway.

[Blackfox34]

Mods are good and all, but most (not saying all of them) are the same quality as BIS produce. These guys are the pros and get paid to spend there time making models and features, whereas many of us do not, so naturally most of there material is better looking.

Underwater diving is not a huge feature everyone can jizz about, it's small but cool. So is stealth/stealth kills.

You do not need to use them for every situation, but you could have fun with missons where you would need to use stealth. That's all I want it for. FUN.

[[GR]Operative]

Combine this with the SS's of the Underwater diving lead me to believe there will be a higher focus on stealth, since thats one of the only purposes why you would need to have that in the game.



Why go up close when you can take the far away shot? What if you miss and blow your chance?

Why go underwater when you can take a helicopter in? Stealth.

Dude, did you see, let say, SBS in action? Or any SF combat/training footage.
These soldiers are not trained this way, it's not that they must not miss, they simply don't miss.
Hiting targets some hundred meter away (let say 200-250m) is not hard for them, even with unmagnified optics.

The knife in military service is great... to open cans!

---------- Post added at 04:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:51 PM ----------


The campaing is about stealth, so if you loose your gun, the only way to get one is take from the enemy, you aint gonna kick him in the balls.

Lose you gun? Are you seriously?
You know trigger discipline? Counting the rounds you shot so you know how many rounds are left?
If you are running out of ammo, why don't you actually shot an enemy down! You are, after all, holding a gun! You kill him, and grab his gun, simply that.
Also, you are SBS, if you shot is to kill. You may go back to some point where you've previously killed some enemy and take his weapon.

[PuFu]

You do not need to use them for every situation, but you could have fun with missons where you would need to use stealth. That's all I want it for. FUN.
If you want FUN go budy up with Sion and play FPRR...

PLUS, please do me a favor and envision for me how a knife could be implemented in ArmaX please...

[aidas2]

Lose you gun? Are you seriously?
You know trigger discipline? Counting the rounds you shot so you know how many rounds are left?
If you are running out of ammo, why don't you actually shot an enemy down! You are, after all, holding a gun! You kill him, and grab his gun, simply that.
Also, you are SBS, if you shot is to kill. You may go back to some point where you've previously killed some enemy and take his weapon.


You realize that the campaign starts after a failed mission and you washed ashore in enemy teritory with nothing? The only thing that you might still have is a pistol or a knife...

Diving will most likely be used as much as a knife would be. Just for some mission intro eyecandy. See no problem in implementing atleast a scripted preanimated knife kill into the start of the first mission.

[froggyluv]

Hmmm. I've always favored a rifle-butt as that seems the most realistic.

Problem with 1 button push sneaky ninja neck-breaks/throat slits is once that animation goes into effect -what? no chance for counter 1 button defence such as: wrist lock or shoulder throw into armbar into arm triangle into reversal into bumpn'roll into leglock ................

If they get a somewhat realistic melee action then great -but a 1 button "I Win!" attack..then no.

[ProfTournesol]

PLUS, please do me a favor and envision for me how a knife could be implemented in ArmaX please...

Very easily, as it was (half) implemeted in OFP : an anim, a strike, that's all.

[HyperU2]

I happily used a knife (thanks SLX) to save my butt after running out of ammo because six 9mm rounds to the chest wasn't enough to stop a bad guy.

[CMB Unit 01]

I happily used a knife (thanks SLX) to save my butt after running out of ammo because six 9mm rounds to the chest wasn't enough to stop a bad guy.

Was it a Russian you were shooting? Because IIRC they use body armour.

[HyperU2]

Was it a Russian you were shooting? Because IIRC they use body armour.


Insurgent in Baghdad, he had Tshirt armor. It's pretty typical with pistol ammo. SLX can make them harder to kill too with the wounding system.

[froggyluv]

I happily used a knife (thanks SLX) to save my butt after running out of ammo because six 9mm rounds to the chest wasn't enough to stop a bad guy.

LOL -yes, I once saw two Russians beating my "2" to death with shovels in SLX -priceless!!!

The problem is that I could get many kills with the SLX knife due to AI's inability to adjust to me in very CQB -if that is fixed, well then thats another story :)

[HyperU2]

LOL -yes, I once saw two Russians beating my "2" to death with shovels in SLX -priceless!!!

The problem is that I could get many kills with the SLX knife due to AI's inability to adjust to me in very CQB -if that is fixed, well then thats another story :)

Well I frequently set up scenarios in the editor to arrange knife kills for videos and they would most often shoot me early, still worth having the option.

[froggyluv]

Yeah, I also haven't tried SLX since before the much improved AI beta/patches -I'm definitely in favor of working it out so that the player doesn't have to stand there with his thumb up his a$$ if caught reloading.

[PuFu]

Very easily, as it was (half) implemeted in OFP : an anim, a strike, that's all.
well, that is something that exactly the same as every other COD game or clone out there -> knife=instant kill, which we both know it is untrue.

The alternative is action based on situation, which leads to a scripted behavior in the end, with no chance on the other side to contra-attack

You want knifes, i couldn't care less, as long as its implementation is properly done.

[aidas2]

well, that is something that exactly the same as every other COD game or clone out there -> knife=instant kill, which we both know it is untrue.

The alternative is action based on situation, which leads to a scripted behavior in the end, with no chance on the other side to contra-attack

You want knifes, i couldn't care less, as long as its implementation is properly done.

Why are you even here if you don't care? And please share your opinion on how to properly implement knifes then... You seem to know everything about knifes here. You won't just go stabbing them in the back till they die, you play as a SBS operator, he will most likely slit your throat or something, wheter you aproach unsuspected or get shot is the players concern.

[ProfTournesol]

well, that is something that exactly the same as every other COD game or clone out there -> knife=instant kill, which we both know it is untrue.

The alternative is action based on situation, which leads to a scripted behavior in the end, with no chance on the other side to contra-attack

You want knifes, i couldn't care less, as long as its implementation is properly done.

Well "instant kill" is a little exagerated : knife strike => dammage, the more the unit is close to you, the more dammage is inflicted. So you gotta sneak very close to "kill". Thus you can implement other types of strikes : bayonet, woodstick etc. I'm not for special "cut throat animation" as in splinter cell.

[AUS_Twisted]

This is how the Stealth kills will look in ArmA 3, no knife needed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2JNxeWO_wA

Not so stealthy though when the guy is screaming after his head was ripped off lol

[Liquidpinky]

The alternative is action based on situation, which leads to a scripted behavior in the end, with no chance on the other side to contra-attack


Unless they go as far as Metal Gear 4 style CQC but I would imagine that to not be the case as A3 would be complicated enough.

[PuFu]

Why are you even here if you don't care?
Because i care HOW it is implemented, thank you

You won't just go stabbing them in the back till they die, you play as a SBS operator, he will most likely slit your throat or something, wheter you aproach unsuspected or get shot is the players concern.
Yes, i definitely agree with you on the fact that the knife needs to be used very precise in order to be effective, especially against a target that has a body armor. Plus, stabbing in the back will most likely have the target scream in pain, which is anything but stealthy.

My POINT: I really don't know of a proper way to get a knife implemented, that would suite both the simulation and the gaming ends of this future title, that is why i would prefer to not have implemented at all than badly.

Note: you play as a SBS operator in the campaign. If such a feature is to be implemented it will be for all other custom missions, as well as MP. Otherwise, it is purely scripted (and that is easily achievable)


Well "instant kill" is a little exagerated : knife strike => dammage, the more the unit is close to you, the more dammage is inflicted. So you gotta sneak very close to "kill". Thus you can implement other types of strikes : bayonet, woodstick etc. I'm not for special "cut throat animation" as in splinter cell.
see above

[Bas92]

Agreed. I'd rather have no knife kill at all than a badly working knife kill.
If done right, the knife kill should only work when you approach an enemy from behind or in his flank. And you should aim at his throat/head.
And that sounds like it's hard to script and easy to become buggy.

[ProfTournesol]

Agreed. I'd rather have no knife kill at all than a badly working knife kill.
If done right, the knife kill should only work when you approach an enemy from behind or in his flank. And you should aim at his throat/head.
And that sounds like it's hard to script and easy to become buggy.

I just can't understand this. You can harm someone by shooting him in the legs, thus you can stab him in the legs too, that's simple. You can harm someone by stabbing him from front or back or from wherever you want. It's just stupid to attack someone who's got a firearm from front, that's all. No scripting. No bug.

[Bas92]

I meant that an insta-kill should only work if you approach him from behind - etc.
I just don't think melee combat will work in ArmA. They could also use that money/time to improve other stuff. They could make ghillie suits actually matter, improve stealth gameplay and make the sound effects more realistic.

[Blackfox34]

Some of us do play this game to have fun. I find it fun to be able to simulate the military, with minimal consequences (i.e. Dying). It's fun to play a transport pilot or a special operator even if you may have a different role in the military in real life. Simulation can still be fun.

I agree with all your points. Why not just implement a knife as a weapon?

I mean if you are stupid enough to run around with it and up to any enemy who is looking right at you, then you should get shot anyways. Could just have it out...when you sneak to someone undetected you just either stab him in the throat or click on a stealth kill animation. If you stab and miss, well you deal with the consequences (alerting enemy, just wounding your assailant, etc)

[skooma]

This series always lacked proper stealth. If I shoot someone a kilometer off at night in the rain with a suppressed rifle everyone and their dog knows exactly where I am

[Ish]

Every solider since WW2 and perhaps earlier had a personal knife. For me, it's not about "i'll never use it anyway" it's about "i'll want the opportunity to use it if i want". Freedom of choice. I don't really get the CoD argument either.. CoD has guns to, should we skip them also? It's a stupid argument.

But on subject, i'd love for the AI not to see you when you're 800m away with a silenced sniper rifle first shot you take. It's just not very realistic.

[Hedo]

Freedom of choice.
With this kind of thinking you can go on and on and never have enough of features.

I'm not really against the idea, I just think there are a lot more important things BIS can focus on.
And if you are deciding on the prority of features, it is about "i'll never use it anyway".

[maturin]

This series always lacked proper stealth. If I shoot someone a kilometer off at night in the rain with a suppressed rifle everyone and their dog knows exactly where I am

No, they don't.

Implementing knives would be a whole lot of work for extraordinarily little payoff. You would completely perfect circumstances in order to pull off a stealth kill. Namely, a single enemy in the dark with his back turned. Otherwise his squad is just going to shoot you. A silenced M9 is quiet enough to have the same effect, and from a similar distance. :p

The only real value knives would add is in stupid usermade missions. And possibly zombie mods.

[ProfTournesol]

With this kind of thinking you can go on and on and never have enough of features.

With this kind of thinking we'll still be playing Castle Wolfenstein.

[Ish]

With this kind of thinking you can go on and on and never have enough of features.

I'm not really against the idea, I just think there are a lot more important things BIS can focus on.
And if you are deciding on the prority of features, it is about "i'll never use it anyway".

For one thing, if the AI is what it could be, it could be useful to have a knife. And secondly how much effort does it take to put a knife in game?
I agree though, that there are more important things.

[ProfTournesol]

And secondly how much effort does it take to put a knife in game?


Well, as Pufu stated, it depends on how complex you want the system to be. A simple system as it was (almost) possible in OFP requires no particular additional work, as it was taken away from the engine. Then the more features you add, the more work it'll take. For example the ability to counter the strike, or to play particular animations when hit by a knife. But not that much IMHO, as AI is already able to detect/not detect you from certain angle, certain stances, certain distances, making certain noises etc.

[Blackfox34]

There's a reason you insert miles away from the target or HALO jump - Stealth. What's the purpose of running all that distance if they AI is gonna go into a craze after the first shot of a silenced weapon or they can see you from 1000m away. It worked a little bit in OA because of the Takistani's lack of NVG and thermal. Stealth can still be improved.

A suppressor doesn't kill all the noise, it can still be heard. So if you are going to take out enemy's spread out in a relatively close proximity a knife could be a better option than a silenced pistol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZU5TGljAmw

While that's probably not military quality it shows you have much noise still exists.

[Big Dawg KS]

Knives? Not very useful considering how you typically never get close enough to use them in ArmA. You know, guns also work at close/point blank range, and I really don't think using a knife will make it any more stealthy than a suppressed pistol or simply smacking him across the head with the butt of your gun. Still, there doesn't seem like there'll be many situations where you'd be able to get close enough a guy unnoticed.

[Splintert]

How about a bow/crossbow? Those are silenced and ranged enough to be not totally useless. Not particularly military-like, but maybe the militia/civilian fighters could use them?

[maturin]

Could we stop with all the hyperbole?

The AI is completely oblivious at 800m or 1000m. All these people think the AI are psychic because they get spotted. You can't just continue lying around in the open like you're at a picnic, firing shots in succession, even if you have a suppressor. Once you have killed someone in a squad, eveyone else is going to start looking, and if you show them movement or fire another round, they will see you.

And knives aren't silent either. You have lunge at someone, grab them with all the body armor rustling and clanking together, force their hands away from weapons, force their chin up, slit their throat and then still pin the guy to prevent him from making noise as he slowly bleeds out, then lay him carefully down so he doesn't crash to the ground in a three-hundred pound rain of steel and kevlar.

Stealth means not getting close. Otherwise it's just combat. You can't do it alone. You have to take out the whole squad at once. Then the silencers will be quiet enough.

[darion101]

crossbow would be more reasonable than bow, but it might be way too old for ARMA 3, might have been nice in ARMA 2 though.

[PuFu]

How about a bow/crossbow? Those are silenced and ranged enough to be not totally useless. Not particularly military-like, but maybe the militia/civilian fighters could use them?

how about you go back to the place you just came from?

[Ish]

Just putting it out there. I like to have a degree of freedom. Let me give you another, perhaps better example of what I mean. In A2 and AO, you could not carry a MG and a launcher. And while you normally don't in real life, whats to say there aren't situations where you'd need to pick one up, but the game wont allow it. ACE2 did, which i appreciate immensely.

[Hedo]

With this kind of thinking we'll still be playing Castle Wolfenstein.
I would gladly Return to Castle Wolfenstein. :D

Seriously, read the second part of my post. I'm not against new features, I just think this is pretty low priority.

[Blackfox34]

My aim is to have better stealth elements in arma because i think they are lacking. You don't have to agree with me, just my opinion. Stealth kills are a part of this.

Sure 95% of you kills may come from weapons, but having the option to do it if your virtual ass is on the line is what I'm asking for.

[maturin]

How about a bow/crossbow? Those are silenced and ranged enough to be not totally useless. Not particularly military-like, but maybe the militia/civilian fighters could use them?

lol

That's even better. Shoot the guy, watch him go running off into another room shouting "Ow-ow-ow-ow! I can't believe some motherfucker just shot me with a goddman arrow! What the fuck?!?"

Then if you're lucky, he realizes too late that it's in his aorta and he collapses.

My point, none of these weapons are particularly reliable or quiet in real life. ArmA can't model the complexities of the human response, therefore any implementation would either be realistically useless and a waste of resources, or highly arcade.

[Blackfox34]

Also PUFU, all you are doing is trolling this thread as well as the rest. Contribute something to the debate at least instead of insulting.

[Hedo]

How about a bow/crossbow? Those are silenced and ranged enough to be not totally useless. Not particularly military-like, but maybe the militia/civilian fighters could use them?
YEAH, we have a winner. This is a must in Arma 3! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhtLA88hGQM)

[Iroquois Pliskin]

YEAH, we have a winner. This is a must in Arma 3! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhtLA88hGQM)

A 330 FPS bow will ruin anyone's day. ;)

[Big Dawg KS]

Also PUFU, all you are doing is trolling this thread as well as the rest. Contribute something to the debate at least instead of insulting.

Your supposed ignorance isn't exactly helping that. If he's trolling it's because you're giving him a reason to...

---------- Post added at 03:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:24 PM ----------



That's even better. Shoot the guy, watch him go running off into another room shouting "Ow-ow-ow-ow! I can't believe some motherfucker just shot me with a goddman arrow! What the fuck?!?"

I would actually be quite amused to see that happen. :cool: Some people don't seem to realize that just because the weapon is silent/quiet, it doesn't mean the kill will be.

[Blackfox34]

I was defending the dude, who suggested the bow idea. He has a right to his opinion. While it seems stupid, it could have been a cool feature for the civ side. They already had this in the John Rambo mod/missons and it was a fun.

I don't know of any units that use them IRL, but I could see a Chernarus Civ using a bow. Maybe not in the mediterranean though as ARMA 3 is set.

[[GR]Operative]

If you want to keep stealth, like in reconnaissance, forward observing and spying and sabotaging duties, you don't kill.
I can't see where a stealth kill is supposed to happen.

[Jakerod]

I would support it if it was done correctly. (ex. no instant kills, make it so it actually takes talent to use it and make it so that the other guy could fight back and with the ai make it dependent upon rank, skill, and unit type. SF Colonel with high skill is going to kick your ass for example.)
I do agree that it is a low priority on my list of wants however. There have been times where I would've loved to have it ranging from OFP to ArmA II but in all honesty, it may not be worth the effort. Obviously though, BI's call.

[Splintert]

One of the reasons I play ARMA II is for the humor, it's the most realistic unrealistic game I've ever played. Almost every engagement involves at least one totally useless or hilarious moment.

Shooting someone with a bow/crossbow and watching them run off would add to the epicness. It would also make a good trailer scene.

[Iroquois Pliskin]

Operative;1929428']If you want to keep stealth, like in reconnaissance, forward observing and spying and sabotaging duties, you don't kill.
I can't see where a stealth kill is supposed to happen.

The mission Jackal in OA single player scenarios. Go ahead and take out the sentry without alerting the whole base.

I had to set all of the charges while moving in a chess-like fashion of a rook, avoiding their patrols, which could've been easily taken out by CQB or a bullet to the head.

The above scenario with ragdoll physics would play out differently each time, depending if the guard in the tower goes over the rail, or not. :D

[Big Dawg KS]

I would say that once you find yourself in a situation where you need absolutely need to take someone out (and can't just avoid them), your stealthiness has already been compromised or will be shortly after. In that case, I would go for a safer/more guaranteed kill.

[PuFu]

Also PUFU, all you are doing is trolling this thread as well as the rest. Contribute something to the debate at least instead of insulting.

i tried, as well as others (who, incidentatly, have experience with rv engine) , to explain the problems that may arise from implementing melee weapons, and have asked you politely to write down your views on the matter. instead you keep coming back hardheaded with the same reasons over and over again.

and the cherry on the cake, another visionary kid like yourself brings a damn leet crossbow into discussion, because he seen some cool movies or played some FUN game with one.

and I am the one trilling?

[Blackfox34]

One of the reasons I play ARMA II is for the humor, it's the most realistic unrealistic game I've ever played. Almost every engagement involves at least one totally useless or hilarious moment.

Shooting someone with a bow/crossbow and watching them run off would add to the epicness. It would also make a good trailer scene.

I lol'd.

I don't think it would be that hard to do it right. I don't know about counters and stuff, that may be too complicated.

Could probably do it like the higher the rank or unit type the higher the rate of failure of the attack/animation, but this is blanced by the units rank/type on the attacking end.

Therefore, if you have a US Spec Op vs a regular, high chance of success

Regular vs US Spec Op, etc - low chance of success

[darion101]

Honestly I wouldn't be that interested in melee weapons, if they were going to be added I hope they would use a system like Mount and Blade attacks and blocks.

Bow seems like it would be fun, but unreasonable and unrealistic in ARMA 3. Crossbow is a effective weapon that many people use for hunting, and can easily be just as effective in killing. The Crossbow may only be a fun feature in the game, but it wouldn't exactly be "unrealistic".

[ProfTournesol]

Really sad that every topic on this subject must end with troll calling. Is it possible to maintain a decent level of communication within the community :argue:

Bow and crossbow are not a problem, it's so easy to add them through addons. Melee combat isn't when the engine isn't ready for it.

[Blackfox34]

Yeah I don't see it doing melee combat. One way kills, yes, but attack, counter, attack, counter, no.

[Ish]

Also, on the subject of a knife. PvP. That is all.

[Big Dawg KS]

Really sad that every topic on this subject must end with troll calling. Is it possible to maintain a decent level of communication within the community :argue:

Bow and crossbow are not a problem, it's so easy to add them through addons. Melee combat isn't when the engine isn't ready for it.

That's usually because people can't ever make constructive suggestions/arguments, and with nothing constructie it breaks down into trolling.

If ArmA 3 were set in the 1700s then I'm sure people would be discussing melee combat more seriously, but being set in a timeframe where melee combat is pretty much obsolete in warfare, it doesn't make sense for BIS to implement a really well-done system. And if it's not well-done, there's no point in having one.

[ProfTournesol]

That's usually because people can't ever make constructive suggestions/arguments, and with nothing constructie it breaks down into trolling.

If ArmA 3 were set in the 1700s then I'm sure people would be discussing melee combat more seriously, but being set in a timeframe where melee combat is pretty much obsolete in warfare, it doesn't make sense for BIS to implement a really well-done system. And if it's not well-done, there's no point in having one.

That's why new addon makers really lack of imagination. And why this game is becoming boring. Thanks god some ancient mod teams are still working on historical/scifi subjects. Not only on the 100th reskins of BMPs or US camos.

[Big Dawg KS]

That's why new addon makers really lack of imagination. And why this game is becoming boring. Thanks god some ancient mod teams are still working on historical/scifi subjects. Not only on the 100th reskins of BMPs or US camos.

That's the problem, people are always too far on the extremes; stuff that fits in the original game's setting (essentially more of the same old stuff we already have) or stuff that's so vastly different that they run into extreme engine limitations. There's plenty of room in the middle for games/mods that can take advantage of the current engines and still have different enough settings and/or gameplay to be refreshing.

But this is a completely different topic. Melee combat is not going to be an essential part of the RV engine until BIS needs it to be.

[ProfTournesol]

That's the problem, people are always too far on the extremes; stuff that fits in the original game's setting (essentially more of the same old stuff we already have) or stuff that's so vastly different that they run into extreme engine limitations. There's plenty of room in the middle for games/mods that can take advantage of the current engines and still have different enough settings and/or gameplay to be refreshing.

But this is a completely different topic. Melee combat is not going to be an essential part of the RV engine until BIS needs it to be.

Game limitations are here to be broken. And BIS can/could break some of them, or at least ease addon makers work. My humble opinion is that melee is one of the easiest ones, that would suit to every eras, even modern ones.

[Big Dawg KS]

Game limitations are here to be broken. And BIS can/could break some of them, or at least ease addon makers work. My humble opinion is that melee is one of the easiest ones, that would suit to every eras, even modern ones.

But something as complicated as melee combat needs to be done right. A hack or workaround would not have the quality that BI could produce by integrating it into the engine. In other words, without some specific engine ehnancements any implementation of melee combat would be half-assed.

I'd rather BIS just leave it out alltogether than throw together some half-assed system. When they do get around to making a well designed melee combat system, then that's fine.

[Kelley13]

add stealth features that not only include sneaking around but enemy and civilian clothing and vehichls as diguises.

---------- Post added at 06:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:38 PM ----------

animation for stabbing people from behind and wrestling sequence if aware of presence or if in front in MP.

[Kevaskous]

i don't usually post on these kinds of things but having many friends that were part of the Ranger's and sent into deep recon I got really irritated with this discussion having read it.

The idea that a knife is mostly useless is a fallacy, yes silenced weapons from afar are indeed much quieter HOWEVER. The impact of a bullet into a person is not, the chance of passing through the person and colliding with a object behind them, is high, and also quite loud, and the drop of the body is not gonna be quiet either.

When COMPLETE stealth is a must, knife is used, OFTEN, I don't get where people come up with this stuff. I sit and listen to stories of night ops he's done in Kuwait all the time where the knife saved his ass on so many occasions. Knife should be put in, in the proper manner, also keeping in mind the fact that a trained soldier is gonna have a 95% kill rating with a knife, instantly and/or extremely quietly.

[Blackfox34]

Couldn't have said that better myself. There's a reason why they train these men to do all this stuff. Sure, like we have said. It may only be used in a few different scenarios, but it like all weapons, a tool in your arsenal.

Stealth has been lacking in the ARMA series and if they are implementing underwater diving and other little tweaks, Stealth/Stealth killing should be added too.

[Darky88]

A friend and me have been wishing for Stealth and Knifes in ArmA for a long time whenever we are running through the woods of Chernarus again and spot a small camp of patrolling enemies and such. With the weird AI they got going at the moment it's hardly imaginable to do that without alerting others, but if they actually improved this aspect for ArmA3 too, then yes sure, I'd be for all this additional level of realism :)

[Ish]

What Kevaskous said. Especially CQB and street to street combat being a very real in modern times. Hell even in Stalingrad much of the fighting was done house to house.

[Blackfox34]

People fear this will turn the game into COD, but it won't. It's the community that makes this game unique. We relish realism and know it's stupid to run around just trying to knife. If we were a COD community, no one would play this game.

[[GR]Operative]

Covert operations is one thing, military, combined arms, operations is another completely different.
Assassination and house-to-house combat is not the same thing.
If you are undercover, solo, and need to kill someone stealthly, go for your knife.
If you are in a military situation where more enemies are expected (ArmA trademark), you can't simply go there and stab some one to the death and expect no one will see/hear you.
If you stab someone and cannot silence him (like not fully cutting his throat, albeit fatally wounding him) he can still scream and beg for help. With a shot the the head, there's no reaction.
Also, small caliber rounds (like of the M9 pistol sidearm, the 9x19mm) in suppressed weapons are almost noiseless. This occur because they travel at subsonic speed.

[Grillob3]

I work by a navyseals base in coronado SD CA. and i asked the guys there (navy seals) about this situations:using knife in stealth missions...they all said that this is almost likely that will never happen " is easier and more efficient to use a gun!" So they have only basic training with knifes. And mostly to protect them against knife attacks!

[Ish]

So now knives are synonymous with Call of Duty? CoD likely features some of the weapons that will be in A3. Let's remove them also..

(This is my way of saying: Wow, that's the worst argument i've ever heard)

[]NTRUDER]

I would actually welcome a melee type of system because it would add to the 'sim status' of the OFP/ArmA series. I mean, these games are pretty much already considered as games where you can "do everything". But without the ability to get close and physical with an enemy, aka performing knife or rifle butt attacks, that's not really true.
Just to be able to do it would be nice, that's all I'm saying.

BUT I wouldn't want such a feature implemented at the cost of other, more important, aspects of the game.

[Blackfox34]

Yeah, I honestly don't think it would be that hard to do though and for it to not be overpowered and overused.

Let the community use it how they want. If you have it as a weapon (BF2 style) or have it as a button (COD style) its the user's choice. IF he wants to run around knifing let him do it, he will quickly figure out this is not BF2 or COD

[Ish]

.. As for the bow.. That shouldn't be that hard to mod for, am i right?

[ProfTournesol]

.. As for the bow.. That shouldn't be that hard to mod for, am i right?

You are. Its very easy, and was done more than several times.

[Celery]

How to best realize the absurdity of no melee option in Arma 2:

- Place two unarmed soldiers of opposing sides next to eachother; make both playable.
- Place various (weaponless) vehicles in the vicinity.
- Briefing and taskHint at start: "Kill the enemy!"
- Play with your buddy in multiplayer.

[Blackfox34]

Here's an example of Bow. It is RAMBO though. Fun stuff

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=11426&highlight=RAMBO

[neokika]

Hey,

Some kind of melee attack could work, when a unit has no weapon, the Sights action/key would make the unit assume a defensive position, ready for a fight.
A block button, one for punches and one for kicks.

Anyway, I think Im going crazy there...:D

_neo_

[Big Dawg KS]

How to best realize the absurdity of no melee option in Arma 2:

- Place two unarmed soldiers of opposing sides next to eachother; make both playable.
- Place various (weaponless) vehicles in the vicinity.
- Briefing and taskHint at start: "Kill the enemy!"
- Play with your buddy in multiplayer.

Ram them with a vehicle. :j:

But in all honesty, in what situation would you have two unarmed guys trying to kill eachother in ArmA under normal circumstances (other than by mission design)? Yes, it'd be a nice feature to have, but it's not important if you design your missions well enough. I suppose if BIS wanted to make a mission that involves melee combat they would implement melee combat.

[Celery]

Ram them with a vehicle. :j:

Yes. Two extremely hostile and deadly guys within arm's reach from eachother have to scramble to the nearest vehicle to have a chance to harm the other. That's how absurd it is.

[Rye]

Now I like the idea, the theory, of a melee mode.

Aslong as the wounding system is changed to provide well-balance wounding capabilities and no one cut to the face, you're dead.

[PurePassion]

http://www.arma3.com/images/bg_story.png

take a close look at the diver in the right corner and you will recognise a knife.

I think it wont be there for no reason.

Melee and stealth attacks are getting possible!

[Celery]

Don't some Arma 2 models have a knife as well?

[PurePassion]

hmm.. i dont know any..

can you post a reference or source for that to proof it?

[SiC-Disaster]

I need bayo charges in the game! :)

[Grimfist]

One thing i would like to see is, not necessarily melee combat (would be useful though),
but better AI response to being stealthy, for instance in real life suppressors are still loud, if one is fired close, you can hear it, but it is confusing and you don't know where it came from.
In arma currently, if you shoot a guard in the face, the others know where you are, they should if close enough, just go from safe, to combat, and if they find there friend dead, THEN come LOOKING for the player.
also make detonating satchels not reveal anything about the player.
also make hiding in dark areas more effective, as you can be hiding in a bush at night just a few feet from someone, and if they don't have NVG's, they wont see you (as long as you don't have a red dot sight on, gen 1 NVG's or bare skin showing etc).

about actually melee combat, i dislike the idea of having 'knife kills' but would like some form of bash or strike, that would knock someone down or give you that edge.

about 'realism' soldiers are still trained how to sneak up on sentry's and break their necks from behind, and slit throats, and the British army still use bayonets and even to this day still mount them in cqc.

tl;dr
-ability to, if undetected sneak up behind AI, and using action menu break neck, slit throat or whatever.
-key for quick bash, and if bayonet mounted, then stab for use in cqc. - but would not kill just knock back, or incapacitate, then u can finish em off with rifle.

no, quickly whip my knife out and insta kill in 0.5 seconds like cod.

such in moh and cod you get knife kills all the time, just because their so effective and gay, whereas using slx for arma ive only got a few, and thats just from finding myself behind a sentry and not wanting to fire my main weapon.

and nothing beats a shovel fight in slx...

edit: Yes , the us soldiers do have nifes on their model, but they are more for cutting wire, cooking etc.

[Tom1]

On the note of SLX knives, go and knife a building a few times and see what happens ;)
Sorry for offtopic.

[Rye]

http://www.arma3.com/images/bg_story.png

take a close look at the diver in the right corner and you will recognise a knife.

I think it wont be there for no reason.

Melee and stealth attacks are getting possible!

Maybe but it might just be for authenticity as combat divers have knives for all kinds of reasons. I hope it's for real. Nice find. :)

[PuFu]

Somehow, a thread entitled Stealth Kills turned towards Are there gonna be knives/bayonets?

sure, for some of you knives would wet some pants, and you could create your own missions where you'll feel like John Rambo and alike. Sure it would open a door for moders creating medieval (but not exclusively) content.

But i see NO ONE is talking about the actual stealth kills in relation to an AI group:
Today's behavior for a group of X AI is that they are all aware of the other's state. Which means if those AI are spread across an entire map, and i get to kill one of them the other will most likely say under fire and Y is down.
While i understand why this needs to happen in order for the groups of AI to function, this awarness status is what kills the stealth more than anything else (in fact most missions designed for stealth have 1 man groups, 2 at most). In this environment, silently killing an enemy AI with a knife wouldn't matter much, since his buddys will most likely blast you in the next 5 seconds anyways..

[2nd Ranger]

hmm.. i dont know any..

can you post a reference or source for that to proof it?

The USMC Rifleman unit has a knife (or bayonet) on his gear.

[Max Power]

hmm.. i dont know any..

can you post a reference or source for that to proof it?

Lots of ArmA 2 models have pistol holster which may or may not represent that the equipment the unit is actually holding.

I'm not saying that the knife is not usable in ArmA 3, but a knife is a very common piece of equipment for anyone that works around the water. In my experience with swift water rescue, a knife is always carried, even in training. Because water is a hostile environment, you need tools to cut yourself out of natural and unnatural snags. Because BIS are very detailed model makers, I would suppose that the knife was for the divers 'costume', not because you actually need to stab someone at any point. Until they announce something, nothing is confirmed or denied, though.

[nuttex]

hmm.. i dont know any..

can you post a reference or source for that to proof it?

Almost any Marine unit in original ArmA 2?

[PurePassion]

yes i'm sorry. i just own OA, but looked up some pictures and they really wear knifes.

Well then i think we can just continue specualating or wait for some intell

[Primarch]

I have my "stealth kill" thing called an apache. It kills people with a cannon 2kms away and doesn't afraid of anything. There is no need for melee in this game, it has been discussed to death in OA forums.

[ProfTournesol]

There is no need for melee in this game, it has been discussed to death in OA forums.

And this is only your own conclusion.

[11aTony]

I can only say that for example Crysis 2 has amazing stealth kills. They never get old, especially in MP. Well if it registers :).

[Dysta]

PLA must be proud if stealth kill / hand-to-hand combat can prove useful in milsim game:

http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/showfull.php?photo=44254

http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/showfull.php?photo=44256

http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/showfull.php?photo=44377

(The last one is actually a police force, but that's still works.)

[JojoTheSlayer]

I dont see a issue with adding melee. Just a simple forward stab that reaches arm length and a stealth kill that takes a little time to do, but I think you must equip the knife similar to pistol from rifle etc. Maybe even making them charge up similar to hand grenades are so it takes a short while to do a actual instant kill stab. For balance maybe make you walk slower while charging the attack to prevent sprint stabs.

As for the kill animation/stealth kill on the back of a enemy there are slower games out there like Hitman series that show "none COD" knife kills etc are possible in games.

As for the usage, I could have used this 3 times today in a CF pvp battle.

[RangerPL]

I'd like to be able to kill a member of an enemy group without them instantly finding out about it (unless they see it).

And without them instantly locking on to my position and hunting me down.

[HyperU2]

I'd like to be able to kill a member of an enemy group without them instantly finding out about it (unless they see it).

And without them instantly locking on to my position and hunting me down.


Yeah, that would be even better than a knife.

[The Hebrew Hammer]

I can think of certain situations where a bayonet or knife would be needed. Obviously you should have to selected it and actually take it out to use instead of just magically slashing, but like mentioned sometimes suppressed weapons are just not an option.

I would at least like to see bayonets if we can't have knives. Anyone who has fought in Helmand knows that there are times where bayonets get fixed. I've heard from a guy who actually has a no sh*t confirmed kill with his knife. They were doing some security patrol at night for some big op they were conducting, some Muj guy was hiding in a canal waiting for the patrol to walk down the road, well they were crossing that same canal and he was walking point. So he heard the AK's safety turn off, saw the guy in the water, and freaking jumped on him, headbutted him with his kevlar, grabbed his kabar off his flak and stabbed him like 30 times...

they have pictures of the body..

[Innomadic]

What is wrong with a knife exactly? Script some animated stealth kills? I mean it is too fiddly to be required to pull it out of your gear (using changing weapon in A2 as a reference) but no where is it necessary to revert to the CoD insta kill sweep.

The whole stealth kill system is based upon the AI not hearing your movement and raining hell down on you without so much as a whisper. The two are mutual, improved AI response, improved CQB handling.

[CommanderYuri]

Stealth would mean that you are able to quietly sneak up on the enemy. I hope that while doing so, your movement sounds wont simply switch off or are completely imperceptible for the AI. That would be simply unrealistic since only No.47 is able to do that. It sounds more like a campaign issue where you surprise sleeping AI or guys approaching your position without recognizing the nasty sniper in ghillie suit.

Okay, if you ask me, they could just insert the option to stealth kill when someone stands in front of you and for what reason ever did / does / does not want to see you.

[Rye]

So it should be affected by weight, footwear (maybe, I play too much Elder Scrolls lol), type of terrain, skill level of opponent, sound level (echo, loudness), speed, what kind of movement (e.g. crawling, crouching, standing), light level?

By the way people stating realism and how it is not used, it is taught is basic training in most countries to use the bayonet and simple techniques of hand-to-hand combat. In unconventional or elite units it is taught in more detail, this fits in with the A3 storyline. It may be a rare event but I just wanted to note that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3C190UtgAE 2:20. There are many documentaries, books, pdf's, websites out there about the topic.

Advanced combat and hand-to-hand training. Special Forces do learn about the useage of all kinds of weaponary, their game is warfare no matter the weapon. It is apart of unconventional and conventional forces around the world; Basic Training.

Basic training here in Australia, Britain and the US all go through bayonet training and similar.

As Arma 3 is based in a more unconventional attitude with a small SF team, combat divers then it might not be a bad idea. Though it should be refined to the wounding system, made friendly with AI scripts and look good! Nice smooth animations, no one strike kill. I cannot really think of a games with this except for Metal Gear Solid, Splinter Cell etc.

Try the book "Long Rifle" by Joe LeBleu. His grandfather was in the USSF and worked closely with Delta Force, they taught him so much about hand-to-hand combat and drilled into him to take a knife wherever he goes and how important it was.

Even though Joe LeBleu did not use a knife, he carried at a minimum of three on him when he toured Iraq and Afghanistan.

These points are good to note.

Also note: The somali pirate stabbed to death by a US Navy Seal, a Marine in Fallujah who used his knife on an insurgent, Rex Applegate and the Combatives series, a Gurkha who beheaded a Talibani with his kukri, among others!

I think the point is that melee combat has never been tried before with the Arma series and no one knows how it would come, I agree. If it was to be a feature then it must work properly (good animations, smooth gameplay, no throwing knives instant kill). A good thing to note in the Arma series is that it would be a rare event (PVP or COOP) so even if it was included it wouldn't annoy players to hell like the COD series.

[Pathetic_Berserker]

Dont get it, what is thread expecting. A stealth button that says 'Ai not hear me now'.

[])rStrangelove]

Point is that ArmA3 should have an AI built with stealth attacks already in mind so the player has a chance to use stealth as a tactic rather than the mission designer using dodgy scripts.

[DerKonig]

Dont get it, what is thread expecting. A stealth button that says 'Ai not hear me now'.

No, I think what should be expected is that A3 should take a more holistic approach on stealth using stance, speed, terrain, lighting, distance from AI, AI's orientation, AI's skill level, etc. to create a stealth system.

[NoRailgunner]

"stealth kills" are too mainstream and overrated...

[Dysta]

"stealth kills" are too mainstream and overrated...

And in ARMA 3 you won't use that too much for a long stealth event.

[Max Power]

No, I think what should be expected is that A3 should take a more holistic approach on stealth using stance, speed, terrain, lighting, distance from AI, AI's orientation, AI's skill level, etc. to create a stealth system.

That's how it works now.

[2nd Ranger]

My favourite stealth kill ever is in MOH when that douche in the FDNY hat (and wearing sunglasses AT NIGHT) goes up behind a guy and stabs him when he has a perfectly good silenced weapon that he has been using all mission long.

What I'm saying is we need knives and FDNY hats.

[ProfTournesol]

My favourite stealth kill ever is in MOH when that douche in the FDNY hat (and wearing sunglasses AT NIGHT) goes up behind a guy and stabs him when he has a perfectly good silenced weapon that he has been using all mission long.

What I'm saying is we need knives and FDNY hats.

And FDNY is ?

[Rye]

My favourite stealth kill ever is in MOH when that douche in the FDNY hat (and wearing sunglasses AT NIGHT) goes up behind a guy and stabs him when he has a perfectly good silenced weapon that he has been using all mission long.

What I'm saying is we need knives and FDNY hats.

Lol, so melee and hand-to-hand combat has been demoted by that kind of culture - COD, films, tv shows, first person shooters. I would yet like to see a good system for hand-to-hand (including useage of knives) combat in the military simulator setting.

There were a few good games for this like Splinter Cell and Fight Night:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvC0m7nYuK8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNvgrCN-YmM

The useage of melee and that kind of weaponary would have to be dynamic. In PvP I could easily see it turning into more of a button pressing marathon, something Fight Night did great to counter.

[Max Power]

Lol, so melee and hand-to-hand combat has been demoted by that kind of culture - COD, films, tv shows, first person shooters. I would yet like to see a good system for hand-to-hand (including useage of knives) combat in the military simulator setting.

There were a few good games for this like Splinter Cell and Fight Night:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvC0m7nYuK8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNvgrCN-YmM

The useage of melee and that kind of weaponary would have to be dynamic. In PvP I could easily see it turning into more of a button pressing marathon, something Fight Night did great to counter.

Of course, Fight Night's whole schtick was boxing, and I can't remember the last time I flew a helicopter on a CAS mission in Splinter Cell. I wouldn't expect anything so complex if at all.

[The Hebrew Hammer]

Why waste precious ammo, risk over-penetration, etc.

Suppressed weapons in case you haven't noticed, don't make you silent. What is you're not carrying subsonic loads? What if you're rocking a battle rifle like a Mk14 that would require you to cycle the action manually if you were to use subsonic ammo?

Get off your mil-sim high horse, what kind of logic is: "because COD features stealth kills, it shouldn't happen in Arma"

Hand to hand combat should be out, but bayonets and knife kills should be a part of the game. Especially if you're behind enemy lines, don't you want to save as much ammo as you can?

[Rye]

Get off your mil-sim high horse, what kind of logic is: "because COD features stealth kills, it shouldn't happen in Arma"

Who are you talking to? because no one mentioned that. I said COD demoted the view of hand-to-hand (use of knives) combat into something pathetic.

Mk14 isn't bolt action but I get your point there, nothing should be 100% silent as I stated a few posts back. Bayonets and knives are fine by me, hand-to-hand combat would be a next step up so if not in A3 then so be it. It's not just about saving ammo, over-penetration, it's also about security and stealth. Knives are used a lot, they are standard kit - especially in unconventional units like SF and combat divers, infact combat divers used to use knives only to protect other divers until underwater weaponary (amphibious rifles and pistols) came to shine, they are still used kind of as a back-up and there are many other uses (though not in game) for a knife than just killing. And it's still used as a primary choice when amphibious rifles/pistols aren't available or you have no escort with them.

[Max Power]

Mk14 isn't bolt action but I get your point there, nothing should be 100% silent as I stated a few posts back.

I don't know if you do. In case you didn't get his point, he was saying that realistically, a subsonic load won't cycle the action of a mk14. So, after every shot, you would have to recock it.

SvLWu-OQJno

[Rye]

Ah, I didn't read it properly. Thanks for pointing that out.

@<hidden> You'll still have the noise of your action, muzzle blast (though quieter) and the noise of the projectile impacting as stated in: http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=1934985&postcount=190. So nothing can be an 100% stealthy kill in terms of not making any noise but a stealth kill would be to make the minimal amount of noise without being caught doing the action. It would be more of the case of making AI friendly with it IMO.

[Rye]

"The combatants could smell each other’s breath. Hear each other grunt. Knives are the last resort when there is no time to change magazines on weapons and you are so close to each other." - http://www.sasspecialairservice.com/tora-bora.html

Good read.

[Goos]

I'm not talking about running around knifing people like COD. I'm talking about you or you and your squad want to infiltrate and enemy position and either don't have silenced weapons or constraints which make the need for you to use stealth. Where you can sneak up on enemy's and have an animation or action to perform a stealth kill.

Sometimes it seems as if the AI have eyeballs in a line around there head that enable them to see form all directions, make it near impossible to perform a proper stealth kill.

This is not only a cool feature, but adds immersion for smaller units and teams who need to work in the cover of silence.

I'd give my left nut for this feature. In short the majority of missions I make to play are night stealth missions and I sorely miss being able to creep up on someone to grab them and either blade them or choke hold them till they pass out. Melee stealth kills doesn't need to be how modern warfare portray it it is a valid feature that special forces employ for silent operations and I for one would love to see it in ArmA 3.

[eddie247]

I'm all for stealth kills. I wouldn't say the knife is the most efficient way of doing it but I would like to see a stealth melee attack.

Also something like a garotte (cheese wire),
and or a neck break (possibly skill induced/escapable by tapping a button or a particluar combo of keystrokes to apply sufficient force/escape).

[Debo]

wonder if you can crawl through cracks/caves and slice them while they are outside

[CyclonicTuna]

Yeah I'd like to see that

[XurdeadX]

Yeah stealth should def be included, most special forces require that, how about like busting through doors, breaching, knife kills, etc?

[kylania]

I don't want knives at all, but definitely want realistic stealthiness. One silenced shot from one end of a town shouldn't alert an armored division on the other side of town.

Also body detection would be great, but without the 'hide body' option, so you physically had to hide them or something or else the AI would be alerted. Good times!

[Splintert]

More variety in silenced weapons.

[Rye]

More variety in silenced weapons.

A larger variety of silenced weaponary would be useless if the AI wern't tweaked. AI scripts before weaponary. That's why I have to agree with this post, even if BIS didn't do it but considered it, I'm sure scripts would be refined.

---------- Post added at 03:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------


Also body detection would be great, but without the 'hide body' option, so you physically had to hide them or something or else the AI would be alerted. Good times!

Cool idea, if drag or carry could be used on dead bodies this might be cool.

[CommanderYuri]

A larger variety of silenced weaponary would be useless if the AI wern't tweaked. AI scripts before weaponary. That's why I have to agree with this post, even if BIS didn't do it but considered it, I'm sure scripts would be refined.

---------- Post added at 03:13 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------



Cool idea, if drag or carry could be used on dead bodies this might be cool.

Agree, kinda unrealistic the option to hide bodies by just make them dissapear into the humus.

Or at least they could add the option to disguise the corpse by soil type. Like for example, sand for desert, wood for forrest etc, but make it impossible in urban areas and it would be perfect in addition to a drag option.

[CyclonicTuna]

Sounds to much like COD to me, urrgh!!

Stealth kills are a big part of modern day special ops. Nightvision and IR maybe have mayde a big diffrence on the modern battlefield, but when the shit hits the fan a lot of operators still rely on stealth for a succesfull mission. Don't underastimate the effectiveness of a good blade under the cover of night, especially when dealing with insurgents.
Next to that, there wasn't really any scense of a good stealth system in Arma II. Even when using silenced weapons the AI would still know your exact location from a mile away. So it could use some improvement anyway.

[2nd Ranger]

Some of you guys have seen too many Delta Force movies.

[[GR]Operative]

I really believe it's impossible (in a silent, stealthy environment) to get near a hostile without being spotted. Also, it's really hard to walk completely silent with all the equipment.
Now, in a environment with a lot of noise, like a city or such, it may be possible, but really unlikely to happen.

[Rye]

Operative;1940590']I really believe it's impossible (in a silent, stealthy environment) to get near a hostile without being spotted. Also, it's really hard to walk completely silent with all the equipment.
Now, in a environment with a lot of noise, like a city or such, it may be possible, but really unlikely to happen.

Agreed and disagreed, I think this topic has a mix of people wanting all kinds of stuff; silenced weaponary and AI scripts being improved on this, the ability to use knives, use hand-to-hand combat and all kinds of ideas.

Now I wouldn't class any of these points as silent killing in most scenarios but I would class it as a quick and sure way to get rid of someone as well as only causing minimal noise. For it to be silent there has to be a lot of points to consider and fulfilled - by both you, the terrain, time of day and the enemy - along with many other factors that will influence it.

You just have to remember that it's not always aimed at stealth but for self-defence when it's a last resort; say too close to a combatant and you cannot reload or you are jammed. When you have lost your firearm or raising the alarm would be too heavy a cost - this accounts for knives, bayonets, hand-to-hand and whatever else could be used. It was also easily concealed and easily accessable compared with other weaponary.

There are many other reasons for the adoption of utility weapons - both in the past and modern time. I doubt it'll change in the future.

It is possible to kill, paralyze, and seriously injure. We have projectiles now but they are very similar - sharp objects made to penetrate human flesh and cause as much damage as possible. The only difference now is we shoot them out of a barrel instead of thrusting them into somebody.

It was taught heavily in WW2 and WW1 for getting rid of sentries or within close quarter battle and there are quite a few stories of where it did work - and I agree quite a few where it didn't. They did not teach any techniques that were unproven though.

But to do this you would seriously have to be in a desperate situation or a very lucky one to get away with it; it depends on opponent and not just terrain. The enemy could easily be wearing earplugs, stood next to a loud object, sleeping or just not concerntrating.

You must also take into account a future war and possible guerilla war as well as the conventional umbrella of an all-out-war. Knives and silenced weaponary are used in all, a knife is a basic tool of survival as well as an object you can use to kill. They become more important depending on situation - which A3's storyline would easily slip into with an unconventional method and you are right, there are a thousand situations you can be in and never use it.

It's certainly not orthodox and there has been many game developers (mainly making unrealistic fps) that have failed in promoting it. At the end of the day they wern't there to make it even slightly realistic so there has been a lot of negative opinions on the topic when requesting it to be in A3 - I can understand why but if they could do it properly then I would love to see it.

Here's a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc4h0qcAIpE
Good vid, you should try the book Kill or get killed by Rex Applegate it talks about the topic in more detail and doesn't skip as much, Knife Combat - the version of Spetsnaz GRU by Alexander Popuv, Cold Steel by John Styers or half of the other thousands of books on the topic.

[Innomadic]

"Stealth"

http://static.gamesradar.com/images/mb/GamesRadar/us/Features/2008/04/Top%207%20inanimate%20objects/MGS3SUB_n03_2001-2--article_image.jpg

....please?


More variety in silenced weapons.

How about more variety in weapon varietions as standard? For example the G36C has a silenced variant with a Eotech, and a plain variant. However as we know the G36C can take many more items, and i personally would love to see this just for varietys sake.

[Jak170]

I think knife kills would integrate well. SLX has it i think for arma already. Its rarely used in huge fights but in those stealth missions where your in ghillie and runnin amok in an enemy base, sneaking behind a target for a melee kill is realistic and implementable.

Perhaps to avoid COD-like knifing rambo bonanza, perhaps the knife action could be activated only if behind an enemy. That way, you cant just bullrush the nearest guy. I mean, if you let an enemy get behind you, you messed up bad already.

[Splintert]

A weapon attachment system would be lovely. Something like it brings up a GUI image of your gun with slots for each attachment. Different attachments are attached to the gun in different ways, such as the rail system or whatever the old AK's used.
The ability to mix-and-match attachments would bring a whole new level of fun.

Close combat with a M107? Strip the scope!

[RobertHammer]

A weapon attachment system would be lovely. Something like it brings up a GUI image of your gun with slots for each attachment. Different attachments are attached to the gun in different ways, such as the rail system or whatever the old AK's used.
The ability to mix-and-match attachments would bring a whole new level of fun.

Close combat with a M107? Strip the scope!

m107 in CQB O.o - played too much Cod?

[Rye]

m107 in CQB O.o - played too much Cod?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_M82#Barrett_M107CQ

For some scenarios it is useful. USSF chop down their M107's, shortened barrel for vehicle and closer quarters work and combine it with the MK211 Raufoss for pure anti-vehicle capabilities instead of long-range shooting.

You will get many hard target engagements with a close quarter environments such as the likes seen in Iraq or with vehicle checkpoints.

The M107CQ is being used by Law Enforcement as well for it's ease of use in a confined space compared with the longer barrel versions. Nevermind it's advantages in having less weight.

But for Arma? Nah. Not needed. :p

[Celery]

Operative;1940590']I really believe it's impossible (in a silent, stealthy environment) to get near a hostile without being spotted. Also, it's really hard to walk completely silent with all the equipment.
Now, in a environment with a lot of noise, like a city or such, it may be possible, but really unlikely to happen.

It would be possible if Arma 2 characters knew how to tip-toe.

[CyclonicTuna]

Operative;1940590']I really believe it's impossible (in a silent, stealthy environment) to get near a hostile without being spotted. Also, it's really hard to walk completely silent with all the equipment.
Now, in a environment with a lot of noise, like a city or such, it may be possible, but really unlikely to happen.

Yeah but I'm not talking about regular soldiers here, special forces often have less equipment and adpated gear to make them more silent. Ofcourse you don't really need stealth at the frontline because the opposite sites know from each other where the other guys are. But you should see it as some sort of behind enemy lines situation, besides its already confirmed that during the campaign you'll be on your own surrounded by enemy's so I think it could fit well.

[jblackrupert]

Arma isn't just modern warfare.....

Thats the #1 argument against having equipable knives

Arma is anything the mod/mission making community wants it to be.

It boggles the mind how many people want to keep the engine from progressing.....


Reminds me of the days when some people were whining they counldn't get a DOS version of a game after windows got big.

[Celery]

Arma isn't just modern warfare.....

Thats the #1 argument against having equipable knives

Arma is anything the mod/mission making community wants it to be.

It boggles the mind how many people want to keep the engine from progressing.....


Reminds me of the days when some people were whining they counldn't get a DOS version of a game after windows got big.

Let's take guns away so that you can mod them in instead of having plug & play arcade crap like CoD kiddies do.

[Rye]

Yeah but I'm not talking about regular soldiers here, special forces often have less equipment and adpated gear to make them more silent. Ofcourse you don't really need stealth at the frontline because the opposite sites know from each other where the other guys are. But you should see it as some sort of behind enemy lines situation, besides its already confirmed that during the campaign you'll be on your own surrounded by enemy's so I think it could fit well.

Even regular soldiers are taught basic hand-to-hand, how to use a bayonet and knife. It's apart of their regular kit and one of the first things you are issued with. But I agree it is used more often and more likely to be trusted in a Special Forces soldiers hand.


@<hidden>; don't you think BIS can give you the basics, they already have knife models in game. Some A2 mod makers have already made the scripts and functions....

[jblackrupert]

@<hidden>; don't you think BIS can give you the basics, they already have knife models in game. Some A2 mod makers have already made the scripts and functions....

I've seen at least one on youtube.

Can't find it again because it lacks proper tags and description
but watching it was kinda like "Ummmmm what just happened?"

I'm not looking for something like COD, Battlefield 2 or god forbid Bad Company 2 where you run around stabbing and slashing like a madman.

For me and others who want this. the models physically interact with each other... Sneak up, pull back head, cut throat.

Having this would open up the possiblies for so many non modern battle mods.

[Jak170]

If your talking about the knife animations and weapons, that's from SLX mod. ^

[OnlyRazor]

For me and others who want this. the models physically interact with each other... Sneak up, pull back head, cut throat.


I think spec ops are trained to push the enemy's head over forward before slashing their throat. But that's just my experience from watching CSI :yay:

[2nd Ranger]

I think that is the key for this thread.

"I THINK WE SHOULD HAVE KNIFE KILLS BECAUSE SPECIAL FORCES DO IT BASED ON BOOK I'VE READ/MOVIES I'VE SEEN/THINGS SOLDIERS DID 60 YEARS AGO"

[Goos]

I think that is the key for this thread.

"I THINK WE SHOULD HAVE KNIFE KILLS BECAUSE SPECIAL FORCES DO IT BASED ON BOOK I'VE READ/MOVIES I'VE SEEN/THINGS SOLDIERS DID 60 YEARS AGO"

You don't want it we get it now stop making snide comments or try actually adding something constructive. Wether you like it or not it is something that happens and for various reasons if you don't get that then that's your problem.

Also some people touched on a very good point. The way A.I. react is something that needs looked at like how they completely ignore the dead body of a sentry friendly to them when they are on their patrol due to him biting a bullet from a supressed weapon of an infiltration team. Or the fact of if you pick off one member of a group the entire group instantly knows about it no matter how far away they are from him. These kind of points could use some love and attention.

Someone also mentioned dragging or carrying a dead body. I'm pretty sure this can be done now with the battlefield clearance module.

[maturin]

The way A.I. react is something that needs looked at like how they completely ignore the dead body of a sentry friendly to them when they are on their patrol due to him biting a bullet from a supressed weapon of an infiltration team.
Putting them in the same group would fix that.


Or the fact of if you pick off one member of a group the entire group instantly knows about it no matter how far away they are from him.



Doesn't happen.

[tacticalnuggets]

No reason to not have this as at least a module. Enough said...

Now, BIS having time to implement it is their own motivation.

[Goos]

Putting them in the same group would fix that.


But you wouldn't have a large force in one group i.e. lead by the same group leader. At any rate it would be nice for stramlining sake if they just do it off the bat.


Doesn't happen.

No? Used to maybe I'm thinking of arma 1

[arye_r]

How about sleeping & waking up states + animations? And eating and smoking and reading and peeing and taking a dump? ;) As funny/ grotesque/ uber-realistic this may sound, these are actually extremely common, real life behaviours that drastically affect the state of alertness/ awareness of a soldier and his ability/the time it takes him to react to a threat. And i think that for a minimum programming effort on the devs' side, those small features would allow us to create many interesting, real life pre-combat situations, especially when talking about stealthy missions. Just use your imagination...

[Rye]

I think that is the key for this thread.

"I THINK WE SHOULD HAVE KNIFE KILLS BECAUSE SPECIAL FORCES DO IT BASED ON BOOK I'VE READ/MOVIES I'VE SEEN/THINGS SOLDIERS DID 60 YEARS AGO"

Research the topic yourself before posting.

[Big Dawg KS]

Arma isn't just modern warfare.....

Thats the #1 argument against having equipable knives

Arma is anything the mod/mission making community wants it to be.

It boggles the mind how many people want to keep the engine from progressing.....

Nobody wants to keep it from progressing, but some of us actually have realistic expectations and understand how things work. BIS has limited resources, and knives should be somewhere after #100 on the list of needed features. More than anything else, the biggest reason to argue against it is because it's a feature that requires a certain complexity, and if BIS doesn't nail it it can actually dilute the experiance and potentially ruin the overall game. And let's face it, we've seen a few instances were BIS hasn't exactly nailed stuff like this. Essentially, it's too much of a risk if you ask me.

[tacticalnuggets]

Nobody wants to keep it from progressing, but some of us actually have realistic expectations and understand how things work. BIS has limited resources, and knives should be somewhere after #100 on the list of needed features. More than anything else, the biggest reason to argue against it is because it's a feature that requires a certain complexity, and if BIS doesn't nail it it can actually dilute the experiance and potentially ruin the overall game. And let's face it, we've seen a few instances were BIS hasn't exactly nailed stuff like this. Essentially, it's too much of a risk if you ask me.

Big Dawg, are you apparently just more knowledgeable than the rest of us about arma 3 and the resources BIS has right now?

[dale0404]

Call me biased or narrow-minded or whatever but I just don't like the idea of knives in Arma3, I have said this earlier in this thread. To me its too arcadey. Its like pressing the space bar to jump and we all know where that leads...

[Ebolavirus]

eating and smoking and reading and peeing and taking a dump == stealthy missions. Just use your imagination...

aaaaaah ok

[chicago]

Call me biased or narrow-minded or whatever but I just don't like the idea of knives in Arma3, I have said this earlier in this thread. To me its too arcadey. Its like pressing the space bar to jump and we all know where that leads...

It can be the truth but silent fights (for example with a knife) are in real conflicts too. I believe the correct insertion into Arma 3 it necessarily need not lead to the arcade game.

[NoRailgunner]

How can you make a "stealth kill" if the guard is close but you have to go over gravel road or underground that makes some noise?
One could even sense that there is something without looking into that direction... What about peripheral vision or knowing the difference between natural/ambient noise and some strange noise that don't fit?

[Big Dawg KS]

Big Dawg, are you apparently just more knowledgeable than the rest of us about arma 3 and the resources BIS has right now?

Yes, perhaps I've been around long enough and paid close enough attention to how BIS operates to be in a more knowledgable position. Either way, it has little to do with how knowledgeable I am about ArmA 3 and BI's resources.

It's a concern based on past experiences with BI's and other games. Poorly designed features can be worse than not having said feature.

Anyway, the reason I have for not supporting this idea is because it's not fleshed out enough. After 19 pages there's still no description of what a melee system in ArmA 3 could/should be like, only attempts to justify some melee system. The problem is that some systems could be good, but some others could dilute the gameplay. I think this vagueness is the biggest reason for disagreement. For example, when some people hear "Stealth kills" they automatically think of "press a button to instakill" (thanks to that being how it's done in 95% of the market). I'm pretty sure nobody here wants that, but the ideas are not being clearly communicated enough. Forget trying to justify stealth kills in general, intstead people should describe in detail how ArmA 3 can have usable knives without diluting the gameplay and try to justify that.

[Daniel]

Nobody wants to keep it from progressing, but some of us actually have realistic expectations and understand how things work. BIS has limited resources, and knives should be somewhere after #100 on the list of needed features. More than anything else, the biggest reason to argue against it is because it's a feature that requires a certain complexity, and if BIS doesn't nail it it can actually dilute the experiance and potentially ruin the overall game. And let's face it, we've seen a few instances were BIS hasn't exactly nailed stuff like this. Essentially, it's too much of a risk if you ask me.

This kinda sums up my opinion on knives in BIS games.

Even though deep, deep down I think BIS should should add bayonets.

[OnlyRazor]

Ooooh, and let's add mosquitoes. They mess up your aim and you have to go through a quick time event to swat them off.

REALISM!

[NkEnNy]

Ooooh, and let's add mosquitoes. They mess up your aim and you have to go through a quick time event to swat them off.

REALISM!
That would be the key combo Left-Shift + P doubletap for permanent flyswatting.


Big Dawg KS has both the long and the short of it.


-k

[chicago]

A question is. How to sneak up to a soldier so that he could not see you. Because I think sometimes in Arma the soldiers have their eyes everywhere :)

[Rye]

A question is. How to sneak up to a soldier so that he could not see you. Because I think sometimes in Arma the soldiers have their eyes everywhere :)

Exatly, AI scripts need work for this. I hate getting close to an enemy in vanilla and all of a sudden they turn around or sense you.

It needs to have a bunch of checks ticked off like light, noise, terrain, movement, speed, etc. Mentioned in an earlier post but if this was worked on it would be cool to see. Other features are more important but at somepoint it would be nice to see a good stealth/undetected system working fluently.


"How can you make a "stealth kill" if the guard is close but you have to go over gravel road or underground that makes some noise?"

Nothing is 100% silent; stealth does not mean this.

Stealth (countable and uncountable; plural stealths):

(uncountable) the attribute or characteristic of acting in secrecy, or in such a way that the actions are unnoticed or difficult to detect by others.

You would probably run over and take the guard as quickly as possible as opposed to slowly yet carefully moving without upturning any gravel and making a noise. Underground would be an echo; you'd try to prevent this as much as possible. But I really don't know, it depends on the situation; there is no proven technique for this and that but only known ways of operating that should work in most situations. In all seriousness if you could do it another way, you would, but there are situations where you wouldn't as well.


"Ooooh, and let's add mosquitoes. They mess up your aim and you have to go through a quick time event to swat them off.

REALISM!"

Please, no trolling. Research the topic and provide quality feedback. IF you do not agree with it then fine.


"Call me biased or narrow-minded or whatever but I just don't like the idea of knives in Arma3, I have said this earlier in this thread. To me its too arcadey. Its like pressing the space bar to jump and we all know where that leads... "

BIS wouldn't make it arcadey if they were truely going to; don't be so silly lol. If wounding and the relationship to knives were worked on then we'd see a good wounding system; which would fix half of the problems related to. Unlike unrealistic fps' with one hit kills. Then they'd no doubt work on movement and playability with this - stealth and non-stealth; stealth being with animations, quick ways of killing and non-stealth being an all out brawl with the knife to take an opponent down.

[Big Dawg KS]

BIS wouldn't make it arcadey if they were truely going to; don't be so silly lol. If wounding and the relationship to knives were worked on then we'd see a good wounding system; which would fix half of the problems related to. Unlike unrealistic fps' with one hit kills. Then they'd no doubt work on movement and playability with this - stealth and non-stealth; stealth being with animations, quick ways of killing and non-stealth being an all out brawl with the knife to take an opponent down.

You say this like it's so trivial. It's quite a significant feature for BIS to get right. It's not that I don't have faith in BIS, but it's a difficult challenge for all developers, as I can't name many games that achieve a good balance between good gameplay and realism when it comes to melee combat in shooters.

[Rye]

You say this like it's so trivial. It's quite a significant feature for BIS to get right. It's not that I don't have faith in BIS, but it's a difficult challenge for all developers, as I can't name many games that achieve a good balance between good gameplay and realism when it comes to melee combat in shooters.

Agreed. It either has to be good or not made at all. These are all just ideas as of now but people keep derailing the conversation. I can only offer points from other games or opinions of how to; it's really up to developers and no doubt they could do it properly but it would take a long time with a lot of effort - it might not work the way people want it to and I don't think we'll be seeing it in Arma 3 because of these points and many others.

[Dysta]

"To assassinate a person with gun, you have 2 seconds to do so, when in range."

"To assassinate a person with a knive, you have 1 second to do so, when you reach his back."

I read the book about "Special Police", how murderer kill a target in shortest time.

[chicago]

@<hidden>: I exactly agree with your opinion.

I know that close kill is very specific fight in the battle. I know an attacker have to use all advantages which it's resulting from a surroundings. As some other noises from surroundings so as guards couldn't hear the attacker.
But I would like to know what the opinion they have BIS developers. How ARMA 3 will be realistic. How much is this possible to implement into the game with realism, of course?

[Rye]

No clue but I like the idea. I know BIS can make a 110% better job than other companies; that's why we're not playing other games like this one and I bet they could make something of it. I agree, a BIS developer must have a keen interest for at least trying to make it work, or put down an opinion but it may not be at this moment in time - bet they're busy as hell.

Since the end of trench warfare, most military knives have been primarily designed for utility/tool use (clearing foliage, chopping branches for cover, opening ammunition crates, etc.) rather than for effectiveness in hand-to-hand combat; though they are designed for close combat in mind as well. Bayonets are in quite similar in role; they are still used but not as heavily and they are taught to effectively push the enemy weapon out of the way (get the barrel off line with their body) and then to engage or begin hand-to-hand, knife or bayonet style combat.

Dysta, nice quote. I have another from 'Fight to Win' by Chris Ryan;
"As well as guns, SF soldiers will carry knives. As the very last line of defence in warfare, traditional combat knives are popular in a lot of SF units, especially the Commando Dagger made by Fairbairn-Sykes. Jungle knives are an essential part of any operator's kit. In the Regiment the knife of preference is a hunting knife. Some guys use a Parang knife, a Malaya equivalent of the machete which is great as a survival knife. On the other hand, the Americans prefer the specialised Kukris from Nepal. The Gurkhas also use this bad boy, which is a seriously heavy duty curved blade. With a rubberised grip, powedercoated, stainless steel blade 10 inches long and 3/16 inches thick, this is a top-class weapon of war". He then talks about an instructor showing students how to strike with a Parang and he swung, hit the tree stumpy, the blade swung back and cut the instructor across the leg. He pretended to ignore it and continued with his lecture till he eventually fell back and collapsed due to massive blood loss. :\

By the way I noticed someone make a 'Rambo' reference at Bows, the movie makers fell in love with bows because they were used and it was quite shocking for them and strange; they kind of fell for it and it made a good storylline:

Unconventional warriors are so unconventional that they have been known to use a bow and arrow for stealth missions; as known from WW1 to Korea (and most likely other conflicts). It can be used to kill game for food. Specialised arrow heads like explosive heads can be used to destroy material or soft tissue in an instance. There is no muzzle flash, and it is deadly quiet; it is perfect for night ops and stealth ops. It has light penetration effects on very light material but explosive heads make up for that and are used for harder material like heavy wood and light steel.

In the book "The Teams", a SEAL team commander describes that he purchased an assortment of cross-bows for his team to use in Vietnam but he was prohibited from using them because the Hague Convention made a provision stating that those weapons are "too quiet" to use in combat, its almost as if it has been set up to provide rules similar to hunting season. The SEAL team were going to use them for a variety of means, including hunting, they learnt the art of the bow because the bow and arrow shafts themself (which can be spiked to form a make-shift arrowhead) are easy to make and the materials can be found anywhere in the world.

So stealth doesn't have to be just knives, it can be a number of different types of weaponary and even your bare hands - though that won't be implemented, I'm just saying that for discussion. I wonder if they are still banned? But with conflicts now a days, average engagements being 500m's then there is no chance or a very slim chance of using the weapons. Maybe in a future war with better and more complex, close, terrain; a more conventional war would increase chances also but the terrain is the bigger deal - that's probably why the useage of a knife or similar was more common in places like the main cities and areas of Iraq. Stealth can also mean fixing AI scripts, silenced weaponary and subsonic ammunition too by the way so at least I hope they do that! ;D

[NkEnNy]

No clue but I like the idea. I know BIS can make a 110% better job than other companies; that's why we're not playing other games like this one and I bet they could make something of it.
110% better than other companies? Hardly. Aside from the truly excellent update followups BIS provides BIS pales in comparison to VALVE, id software or Blizzard when it comes to delivering well thought out software.

110%?
Look at the devheaven page. Look for all the silly config errors that could be fixed with about an hour of work-- or the odd bugs/features that have been present since operation flashpoint days. STILL NOT FIXED.

I would not trust knifefighting to be implemented in any sensible way from the company that gave us the PMC DLC.

-k

[R0adki11]

Bayonet should be at least included, the British Army still trains with them.

@<hidden> well if your moaning about all the faults of BIS games, why do you bother playing them?

[Siaxis]

If just you boys knew how much a Knife means to Special Forces. Its not just something from a COD game. Its actually used. So dont cry about ''i smell COD''

---------- Post added at 11:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 AM ----------

Sorry for that. Was meant to be put up on your thread. Not as a message. And was replying on the other guy ^^ sorry.

[Mr. Charles]

4DzcOCyHDqc

/thread

[Jake_Krieger]

What about Bayonets . They were used in REAL LIFE ! ADD THEM !

[Rye]

Mr. Charles; what the hell? No one is saying use a knife as the first resort, they are simply saying it is a good weapon to add to the game to go along with stealth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myzDLzjQ2Ss
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pzxb2sxbDU&feature=related ;)

[Celery]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pzxb2sxbDU

Is that Monty Python? :lol:

[RobertHammer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pzxb2sxbDU&feature=related ;)

That's like Japan style - BANZAI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6KNPUzhub4)!!! :D

[Rocklobster]

I guess it would be handy, but only if the NPC's were realistic enough to be able to sneak up on - admittedly already quite a task regardless of the AI in a very open game like Arma where the sight lines are often >1000m, and with little to hide behind.

They had a usable knife in OFP : DR, but it was pretty much redundant. To use it you had to go completely out of your way. I only used it once because of that, and had the AI been better in that game I wouldn't have used it at all.

If there was a 'stealth kill' function, there wouldn't be any point in including it unless it was integrated well with all the other gameplay elements. (But that doesn't mean making it as easy/arcadey as COD).

[OnlyRazor]

I'd honestly like to be able to script banzai-esque suicide charges. It'd be cool, especially if someone wanted to do a WWI/II/III/X mod.

[maturin]

I guess it would be handy, but only if the NPC's were realistic enough to be able to sneak up on - admittedly already quite a task regardless of the AI in a very open game like Arma where the sight lines are often >1000m, and with little to hide behind.
They're blind as bats past 300m, what are you talking about.

Knife kills with current AI would just be a borderline abuse showcasing the worst part of the game. AI are far too happy to go prone and slowly attempt to rotate while you run circles around the,.



If there was a 'stealth kill' function, there wouldn't be any point in including it unless it was integrated well with all the other gameplay elements. (But that doesn't mean making it as easy/arcadey as COD).
It would be arcadey, unless a huge amount of effort was put into the animations and wounding system. It would need more detail to work than the gunplay has ever had. So it's pretty obvious that they should expend their effort on the core gameplay.

[ProfTournesol]

It would be arcadey, unless a huge amount of effort was put into the animations and wounding system.

I really don't see why. It could be very simple, without being "arcadey" (which doesn't mean much. Are simplified helicopter handling "arcadey" ATM ?). Just a strike, and a dammage according to distance and the body part which is hit. So it would be hard to use, as in RL.

[maturin]

I really don't see why. It could be very simple, without being "arcadey" (which doesn't mean much. Are simplified helicopter handling "arcadey" ATM ?).
Yes.

The difference is that knives would fall under the infantry category. This game simulates infantry and merely includes aerial vehicles and tanks.

[froggyluv]

They're blind as bats past 300m, what are you talking about.

Knife kills with current AI would just be a borderline abuse showcasing the worst part of the game. AI are far too happy to go prone and slowly attempt to rotate while you run circles around the,.



It would be arcadey, unless a huge amount of effort was put into the animations and wounding system. It would need more detail to work than the gunplay has ever had. So it's pretty obvious that they should expend their effort on the core gameplay.

Although I've always been in favor of a melee strike, the above is very true. Current AI just aren't nimble and agile enough combined with CQB smarts to give them a fair chance against a player armed with a knife.

Hopefully will change - although improved AI cqb behaviour would just make me happy on so many levels besides melee.

[ProfTournesol]

Although I've always been in favor of a melee strike, the above is very true. Current AI just aren't nimble and agile enough combined with CQB smarts to give them a fair chance against a player armed with a knife.

Hopefully will change - although improved AI cqb behaviour would just make me happy on so many levels besides melee.

Voice of the reason :)

[MissionCreep]

Just use a silencer. I doubt in real world situations that a combatant would risk unarmed (in modern warfare, a knife is really a tool) CQB unless it was completely necessary. There is nothing stealthy about wrestling someone into submission.

[ProfTournesol]

Just use a silencer. I doubt in real world situations that a combatant would risk unarmed (in modern warfare, a knife is really a tool) CQB unless it was completely necessary. There is nothing stealthy about wrestling someone into submission.

I would never have thought of this.

[Mr_Tea]

IRL an Knife is still an deadly weapon, and if no other weapon is available it must be used.
The only question is, can it be implemented properly?
I hope so.

To close in on an enemy can be very hard in an quiet night, but in an thunderstorm for example, it`s very much possible to be archived.

[Kristian]

http://myfacewhen.com/images/286.jpg

[Goos]

Oh for the love of...

Why are so many people ASSUMING people are talking about running up to a target tapping a button to see the blade slash across said target as it falls to the ground dead?

Get CoD out of your heads! The best example would be the likes of splinter cell. Yes that game is heavily focused on melee but bare with me it's easier than a lot of people realise.

Now imagine this your behind enemy lines your weapons are dry due to whatever reason you come up on an enemy camp and see a sentry you could pick off slowly creeping up behind him you get close enough to be faced with the silent takedown option uppon engaging on that action you become LOCKED in an animation where you step to the target grab him sinking your blade in him in the deadliest fashion as over the space of a few seconds he slides to the ground motionless. The whoal event could take 5-10 seconds during which time you were completely prone to attack had anyone seen you. There is already an action very similar to this chain of events in ArmA 2 right now. Reviving a fallen comrade. The trick is synching the 2 animations of the 2 men in this action again similar to an already existing action. Picking up a fallen soldier. So yeah it's very possible and very plausable.

If you want to get whiney about it then maybe it could be linked to a module so it is selectable wether or not it can be used or not and maybe limited to certain units. At the end of the day no it would not be the forefront of actions one would engage in for combat but more options available makes games better!

[Big Dawg KS]

Why are so many people ASSUMING people are talking about running up to a target tapping a button to see the blade slash across said target as it falls to the ground dead?

Probably because of the title? It kind of really implies that. I mean we've already had the discussion over whether or not knives are stealthy or used stealthily. Should have just been called "Knife/Melee Combat" or something.

[Rye]

Blackfox started this thread and it went straight to knives and he said no; just some kind of stealth animation. But really any stealth system would improve the game; it doesn't need knives or other types of weaponary for hand-to-hand. It just needs improved. Not that I wouldn't like to see BIS do something with hand-to-hand combat but I'd prefer we get the correct things implemented over the period of time.

[Goos]

Probably because of the title? It kind of really implies that.

No it really doesn't that's just where peoples assumptions went. Personally I fail to see how the words "stealth kills" translates to "one shotting someone with a knife" I read killing a target by using means of stealth be it suppressed weapons/snapping their necks/slitting their throat/drowning them in a boal of cerial/whatever *shrug*

For the most part with the game as it stands now I've done pretty well at various times sneaking right up to an unsuspecting A.I. and popping him in the back of the head with a supressed pistol round but the key to stealth is it should be hard it's not just a case of keeping to a shadow and taking a guy out even though his friends are around and fail to realise their buddy is not looking too healthy. Real stealth is observing and waiting for the right moment to strike and acting on any opportunity that presents itself. As long as that is nailed well and no super hearing is involved it should work out well.

Also my previous example of knifing someone could also apply to something like a choke hold I just used knifing as an example. should have made that clear.

[Big Dawg KS]

No it really doesn't that's just where peoples assumptions went. Personally I fail to see how the words "stealth kills" translates to "one shotting someone with a knife" I read killing a target by using means of stealth be it suppressed weapons/snapping their necks/slitting their throat/drowning them in a boal of cerial/whatever *shrug*

And one thing people do here is assume... quite a lot. Occasionally you get people who just read the thread title and post, without actually reading the thread. The thread title is very important. :j:

[ProfTournesol]

And one thing people do here is assume... quite a lot. Occasionally you get people who just read the thread title and post, without actually reading the thread. The thread title is very important. :j:

Because all topics about knives were closed and directed to this one.

[***LeGeNDK1LLER***]

i smell the knife arguments starting yet again...damn consoles games

:D:D:rolleyes:

[Dysta]

You need a lot of wielding training and stealth training in case to make knife much more worthy in the stealth killing, not a console thingy that you just run behind them and press a button. Cutting wrongfully is also result a grave consequence.

However, no matter how stealthy or even a ghost, in human system people will immediately reflex from a sudden signal under 0.6 seconds. Which mean there's still a possibility to struggling from getting assassinated. Silent ranged weapon however, when he's hit, he will just feel get hit. That's why some assassins also brings with a crossbow or dagger (if trained really well with it) if range is matters.

Overall, I don't think having knife is a bad idea, but people were too much overrated the functionality of the "ancient weapon" (knife is invented in stone-age), there's still a lot of limitation to stealth kill with a knife, at least with proper training and skills that would be another case.

[kylania]

If you could use the knife to whittle small wooden tchotchke you could trade with the locals in exchange for tea or their daughters, then I think including a useable knife in ArmA3 would be a good idea.

[Dysta]

If you could use the knife to whittle small wooden tchotchke you could trade with the locals in exchange for tea or their daughters, then I think including a useable knife in ArmA3 would be a good idea.

Will they accept a handmade dwarf as a worthy treat, in exchange for profit? Well, we will see if we really can use a knife to make something useful.

[LJF]

Melee wasn't even prevalent in WW2, 70 years on or whatever we have much better weapons with much greater rof, much better to shoot your enemy than to try and stab him.

Edit: And as said, the times you could actually use melee are few and far between, and probably 90 of the time you could use melee, it'd still make more sense to shoot the other guy.

As to stealth kills, yes, it's annoying that you can't really use stealth, but in modern warfare stealth is about as frequent as melee, correct me if I'm wrong of course.

[SASrecon]

Stealth doesn't imply that you have to kill your enemies to complete your objective, and no melee is most definitely not as frequently used as stealth.

[Rye]

Stealth doesn't imply that you have to kill your enemies to complete your objective, and no melee is most definitely not as frequently used as stealth.

Thanks for the comment but for stealth to apply then there is a more likely chance of close, hand-to-hand or combatitive combat taking place. So it must be taken into the context and atleast considered; but for gameplay purposes - stealth scripts to be implemented over melee or hand-to-hand features.

Melee (combatives) and other similar forms of close combat (hand-to-hand) aren't common but can happen. And this is why units who have their head screwed on prepare for that depending on their environment.

In an unconventional unit it is more pressed upon you because you may use it more commonly - to restrain suspects, within a close quarters battle and when the time is right. In a conventional war there may be many times that can be used - especially behind enemy lines with unsuspecting or poorly trained enemy.... or both.

In a guerrilla war it is used if it can be done for many purposes; one being stealth and staying out of immediate contact that may result in a large loss of life. You normally have minimal support or support is far away. Guerrilla camps and the likes are normally situated in the most impassable locations therefore every consideration is made to make sure you can effectively destroy the enemy.

For the best use of stealth and close range weaponary like knives, machetes and blowpipes check out Operation Semut - Z Special Unit trained a bunch of Borneo "headhunters" to effectively take out Japanese patrols and other resistance efforts.

@<hidden> - And when you run out ammunition, jam, lose your weapon or it has broken? Never put a knife over any other means of killing the enemy if possible but never underestimate it. WW2 was full of hand-to-hand combat, where do you get these facts? And now yes, we have technology and we have improved - so yes, it is a last resort but one that shouldn't be shunned.

[OnlyRazor]

Since SCUBA's getting implemented... Maybe an action to drag someone underwater and drown them?

[2nd Ranger]

Omg go back to cod

That would be cool as a scripted campaign event, but like everything else, serious attention to animations would be needed.

[OnlyRazor]

Omg go back to cod

That would be cool as a scripted campaign event, but like everything else, serious attention to animations would be needed.

That idea came from SC: Double Agent :bounce3:

[Rye]

Water is noisy.

[Kieran]

I do think it would be really nice to see an option to Fix a bayonet to your rifle

the animation would be a simple, Slash or stab with a botton

this would no way take away what is arma, nor add anything that is Cod
in fact having bayonets makes it more realsitc.

Say you are in a tight Close combat situation, a bayonet on your rifle, would be great of use.
Or
if you are storming a building/bunker agian being able to have the option for a bayonet will be good.

At times, its possible to run out of ammo, so its good to have a knife
hell throwing it would not be that bad either,
Russian Special forces could get a Spring loaded knife ;)

[gho$t]

Just because its in cod doesnt mean cod invented it....

And just because it has stealth kills or something like that, wont make this game like cod in anyway.

[Bospor]

I missed the times in OFP when you could tell your squad to hold fire, assign to each of them a target and then simultaneously let them open fire, taking down a patrol of 3-4 guys. If it was done right, you would never alarm the rest of the base. However, in OFP you could get the entire enemy base like that, like some bad Hollywood movie. Now, something in the middle ground would be great. Give player an option to take out a group of soldiers silently, but the vanished group could be discovered by their command within 5 or so minutes of disappearance.

Close combat on Arma engine is unrealistic, IMO and probably not that necessary in RL if you have silenced weapons. Like someone said earlier, I would rather see Bohemians spend time and money on other things in this game.

[Igneous01]

^ I agree with above

However some basic hand to hand combat should be implemented. Yes its rare, but it does happen, and when you walk in on someone thats metres away from you and your not ready to use your rifle, it would be more smart to charge them and disarm them, then risking those few moments where the enemy might react quicker than you in using their rifle.

[Kieran]

What about a tactical Crossbow, for when you need a medium/short distance silent kill without alerting AI gaurds?

[Celery]

what about a tactical crossbow, for when you need a medium/short distance silent kill without alerting ai gaurds?

CoD CoD CoD CoD!!!!!!!!

[Kieran]

CoD CoD CoD CoD!!!!!!!!
Since when did COD invent a tactical crossbow?
I guess you think COD invent Knife kills as well?

[Tom1]

what about a tactical gun, bullets are better at killing than medivil style arrows :D

[Lone.Wolf]

Where is the realism in tactical crossbow other than Hollywood, i dont seem to remember any SF forces in A-Stan or Iraq been using the tactical crossbow to take out a insurgent... So just use a rifle with a silencer...! :)

[Tom1]

well if china is involved....
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2652/4443528812_d5ef9957d3.jpg
http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa66/Storm123_2007/Crossbow_88.jpg

[Kieran]

What if you are behind the forces lines, with not alot but say a knife and a crossbow perhaps a compass/map

You need to kill a solder to steal his gun.

Now,
yes you could have a silenced pistol but they are bad at accracy and not enough stopping power.

then what happens when you run about of ammo? when hunting in the game

You could easily pick up your used Bolts, and fire them agian

and since Arma 3 is getting more advanced when it comes to weapon systems, why not

It would be a challenge to learn to use the crossbow, since a bolts traval would be harder to get just right than a bullet

[Myshaak]

When you run out of ammo? Well, let's hope you'll be able to interact with trees and bushes to make some sharp sticks... for some stealth kills (and unlocking achievments) ;)

[wolfbite]

I read articles that spesnaz use crossbows and a Knife with a 7.62 round in it.... I feel stealth kills and cqc would add to the game as long as it doesnt involve the CoD style insta stab/death... Obviously slashing a guy in a flak jacket wont be as effective shooting him... I'm currently learning Krav Maga atm and it has shown that close combat especially with weapons is not to be underestimated.....

[Rye]

Why would you use a crossbow when out of ammo? At close range you'd use a secondary - being pistol or knife. Final resort combatives e.g. melee. You're going to have to convince me 1) they use crossbows 2) you can use it as a secondary and 3) you're not high.

[wolfbite]

Pffft well I assume they tend to use something with more Dakka..... But Seing the other weird weapons they use... A crossbow sometimes seems too mainstream :P

[metalcraze]

ITT people watch too many Hollywood movies and argue that SpecOps come close to the enemy on various loud surfaces in heavy boots without ever being heard and manage to do one-hit-kills with a knife.