Recoil (again)

[No Use For A Name]

I like the latest recoil; except when prone. You can't even do 3-5 rnd bursts with a SAW because it still kicks the barrel waaayy up. Last night during MP I couldn't even lay suppressing fire for my team because after 4 or 5 rounds it was shooting 50 feet over their heads, and the spread was horrendous. I had to do single-round shots to even get close; and if they were running...there was no hope.
I think when prone your aim should auto-center (since the weapon is laying on the ground), so you can at least get some decent groups with bursts. I wanted to also suggest making it shake your screen a little more so it's a little harder to follow your target; but still possible to hit them (trying to simulate the gun kicking back more than up while prone).

However I really like the standing and kneeling recoil; seems pretty accurate.

[MavericK96]

Yeah, I don't know if it's been altered in ACE or not, but I was playing some ACE Combined Operations earlier and, using a PKM while prone, the recoil was totally manageable. But then using other assault rifles, even while prone, the recoil seems unbearable. Just needs some tweaking, IMO.

[No Use For A Name]

Hmmm, haven't tried the PKM (or most of the other rifles). I'll have to test it out to see if it's maybe a few specific weapons.

[metalcraze]

Assault rifles do need tweaking.
I have absolutely no problem hitting targets at 100-150m away with the new recoil, but it still needs to be toned down a bit, because after only 2-3 shots the barrel still gets misplaced a bit too harshly.

[Fox '09]

whatever happens, keep the "kick" :(

[CarlGustaffa]

I like the latest recoil; except when prone. You can't even do 3-5 rnd bursts with a SAW because it still kicks the barrel waaayy up. Last night during MP I couldn't even lay suppressing fire for my team because after 4 or 5 rounds it was shooting 50 feet over their heads, and the spread was horrendous. I had to do single-round shots to even get close; and if they were running...there was no hope.
I think when prone your aim should auto-center (since the weapon is laying on the ground), so you can at least get some decent groups with bursts. I wanted to also suggest making it shake your screen a little more so it's a little harder to follow your target; but still possible to hit them (trying to simulate the gun kicking back more than up while prone).

However I really like the standing and kneeling recoil; seems pretty accurate.

Are you sure your beta is working? I can hit popup targets consistently at 200m and 300m with fully controlled bursts when prone with the M249 (and scoped version). It takes a quarter mag burst (50 rounds, you wouldn't do that though) to climb out of the rear post. You may have to "work the gun" a little for long bursts, but it doesn't take long to get used to that.

[Sethos]

ACE adds a heap of kick on top of the Beta recoil.

[fatty86]

If I recall correctly, BIS says the recoil is a work in progress. I think they said they are looking into ways to simulate bipod stabilization and weapon-resting in future patches.

[Heatseeker]

The M240 is kicking too much while prone, even with short bursts.

[CarlGustaffa]

I don't know honestly. At 700m using the scoped M240 I can hit point targets with relative ease. I have to use the 500m stadia though, but I'm not 100% sure how this scope is supposed to "work". This is with very short bursts of 2-3 rounds; hit every time.

Although it does climb a bit (enhanced by the scope), I don't find it too much at least without proper support. If anything, I'd say it's a bit too accurate.

Heh, even with the scoped SAW I'm able to hit my targets at 700m (but then using the 600m stadia), yikes :) I can't even see the targets without a scope, at that range (no AA for me).

Problem in MP is warping targets, making these guns less attractive at least for accurate shooting.

Btw, I've not tested with ACE, these runs are with no other addons than the beta.

[MavericK96]

I guess, in a way, it makes sense to be able to hit targets while prone with a LMG because of the bipod, but assault rifles don't have that. Still, you can rest your arm and fire while prone so it should be similar, plus the recoil in general should be less anyway. So yeah, the assault rifle recoil still needs some tweaking.

[CarlGustaffa]

Yes it makes sense, with the bipod. But since that feature isn't implemented yet :) Then again, maybe it's just activated by default on prone for now. Maybe the M240 should jump around more than climb when rested, but I do find it's accuracy a bit on the high side. Especially against AI who have problems reacting in a good way at that distance.

So what should be implemented I think is the non bipod rested shooting, as the bipod rest seems to be already implemented for MG (should be more scattered around instead of climbing in prone, to support area suppression maybe) and especially LMG. M240 is rated effective on point targets to 600m with bipod. Same numbers for M249 and M60, but I'm not sure how effective the M249 rounds would be at that range against combat personnel.

[Frederf]

I have had problems trying to keep crouched M249 bursts vaguely usable. They seem a bit too hard to handle at the moment. I must remember to test vanilla beta as I often forget that ACE throws its own wrench in the works. The M16 recoil is lovely. The need to "drag down" is the tiniest bit annoying but I wouldn't go back to the old method for all the tea in China. If further coding is prohibitive than I'm satisfied with the core model feature set as is even if some values could use tweaking.

I'm liking the new effort into the recoil being done at the moment. Props to BIS for focusing on subtle, low-level mechanics changes to improve quality from the ground up. Examples like F-35B and thermal imaging being "high-level" improvements.

[NkEnNy]

I concur. The new recoil model is lovely.

The M249 has always had a little too much recoil to shoot standing, even in vanilla arma2.

Additionally I'd like to add to the list of problems weapons are the Ak-74 series which seem to have a little too much recoil to be effective combat arms. Given their low caliber and relative inaccuracy.

- k

[sata3d]

i like a lot the new recoil system, dont change anything bis, great work :)

[50.cal]

Tested on Build 72107 (no mods).

I for one prefer the old arma 2 model with added camera shake as it pretty accurately simulates the longitudinal kickback of the weapon.

Some variation could be added according to the stance and the fatigue state but once the shot has been fired the weapon should return near it's last pos very fast (specially while in prone pos).

Having to steer it back once the trigger has been released isn't realistic at all.

I never fired one of the weapon we have in the game but had a lot of training with a 5.6 (5.56) SIG 550 (standard Swiss military AR). I can tell you that even in full auto the grouping is excellent and the kickback is very manageable for a normally constituted 70kg guy.

Perhaps we could instead have a little more camera shake and longitudinal kickback.

Continue the good work!

[metalcraze]

After doing some testing with MGs I must say that they need to be toned down seriously - meaning the recoil is so big for them that firing more than 1 or 2 rounds at once makes no sense.

[Beagle]

After doing some testing with MGs I must say that they need to be toned down seriously - meaning the recoil is so big for them that firing more than 1 or 2 rounds at once makes no sense.
The usual pratice with Mgs in rela life is to fire 3-5 round burst and watch where they land...then another shor burst. If you applie this real life routine .30 MGs are easy to handle also with new recoil...remeber...MGs are to be fired prone.

[Frederf]

Yeah but automatic rifles aren't.

[Beagle]

Yeah but automatic rifles aren't.I seriously dont see a problem with .223 assault rifles in the actual beta...only with sustained auto fire, buts that's exactly what was wrong with the old recoil model to all I was ever use to.

I shot both the G36 in .223 and the G3 in .308 full auto...target distance for full auto was 25m...thats the distance full auto is considered for in our ZDV.

The G3 is worse then the MG3 in full auto due to only weighting 4,5 kg.
The G36 (3,6kg) is still much worse full auto in controllabillty compared to the MG.

You see...the lighter the weapon the worse is controll in full auto.
Thats why three round bursts are considered best above 25m target range.

[metalcraze]

I'm talking about a prone MG position of course. The point is - the 3rd shot always goes somewhere high into the sky.

[Beagle]

I'm talking about a prone MG position of course. The point is - the 3rd shot always goes somewhere high into the sky.? I've never seen this behaviour...can you upload a video?
Taking out groups of five is easy with MG prone at 200-300m.

[No Use For A Name]

Well, I finally got around to testing some more and narrowed it down to one of the PROPER mods. I played stock OA w/ the beta and the recoil wasn't near as bad.
Sorry for the bad call on my part; hopefully I can narrow it down to a specific PROPER tweak and let them know.

edit: Found it on the first try (not too hard :D ). The only proper mod I'm using that would affect the weapon is the EnhancedWeaponSway, which I thought made the rifle move more while standing/kneeling; but not affect the recoil. Not sure if it's intentional or not (probably bugged due to the new recoil in the beta); but with that enabled my gun is all over the place. Took it out and all is well! Anyone else having the same problem might want to make sure it's not a mod conflict/incompatibility issue. With stock OA+beta it's still very easy to get decent groups with MG's

[Frederf]

I seriously dont see a problem with .223 assault rifles in the actual beta...only with sustained auto fire, buts that's exactly what was wrong with the old recoil model to all I was ever use to.

I shot both the G36 in .223 and the G3 in .308 full auto...target distance for full auto was 25m...thats the distance full auto is considered for in our ZDV.

The G3 is worse then the MG3 in full auto due to only weighting 4,5 kg.
The G36 (3,6kg) is still much worse full auto in controllabillty compared to the MG.

You see...the lighter the weapon the worse is controll in full auto.
Thats why three round bursts are considered best above 25m target range.

Automatic rifle, a.k.a. M249. I tried it again in the latest beta (with and without ACE, didn't make a difference.) Standing and crouched firing performance was fine... might be sliiiightly less accurate than a good shooter in real life but not by much

[ruebe]

There has been talk about making recoil an option - to which I'm opposed to aswell as most of you guys. But, what about makeing the recoil slightly based on the units skill? We already have aimingAccuracy, aimingShake and aimingSpeed. Playing a unit with these values at the bottom of the range, should increase recoil for every weapon (but not dramatic), while playing as a specop with these values in the upper range should reduce recoil a bit. Again, the impact of this should probably only have a marginal effect on the player, maybe a bit stronger on the AI.

Your thoughts?

[arthur666]

The G3 is worse then the MG3 in full auto due to only weighting 4,5 kg.
The G36 (3,6kg) is still much worse full auto in controllabillty compared to the MG.

You see...the lighter the weapon the worse is controll in full auto.

This makes sense and should be modeled. In game, I tested the DMR (.308) against the M240, which shoots the same round. Standing, aiming at the base of a door 50m away, I take 5 single shots and note how much my aimpoint has climbed. Carefully firing 5 single shots from the M240, I notice the gun has actually kicked up more than the DMR did. Since M240 weighs more than twice what an M-14 does, it seems the recoil penalties are reversed. I'ld like to see more sway and less recoil when firing an MG while standing. I think that would more accurately simulate the problem with shouldering a 13kg weapon.

[Beagle]

This makes sense and should be modeled. In game, I tested the DMR (.308) against the M240, which shoots the same round. Standing, aiming at the base of a door 50m away, I take 5 single shots and note how much my aimpoint has climbed. Carefully firing 5 single shots from the M240, I notice the gun has actually kicked up more than the DMR did. Since M240 weighs more than twice what an M-14 does, it seems the recoil penalties are reversed. I'ld like to see more sway and less recoil when firing an MG while standing. I think that would more accurately simulate the problem with shouldering a 13kg weapon.
Yes but there is something wrong with your theory...the M14 does not fire full auto nor has is a rate of 900 rounds per minute. But in fact in prone position there shoukld be no rise at all...the MG3 with 1200 rounds per minute fired supported by integrated bipod was the most stable gun I've ever fired.

[arthur666]

Yes but there is something wrong with your theory...the M14 does not fire full auto nor has is a rate of 900 rounds per minute. But in fact in prone position there shoukld be no rise at all...the MG3 with 1200 rounds per minute fired supported by integrated bipod was the most stable gun I've ever fired.
I think you might misunderstand me. I was getting at the fact that a single shot from a MG should not kick more than a shot from a comparable rifle due to the mass of the weapons. But this might just be a limitation of the game engine. I really have no idea what parameters are moddeled in the Arma engine.

Anyways, isn't it great that BIS can leave such minutiae for us to hash out while they worry about the big picture?

Actually, the original M-14 did have a full auto setting. I have fired a civilian semi-auto M-14 on a few occasions, and it kicks like a mule. Why they orginally made that thing in full auto, I'll never understand.

Question for you, since you have fired MGs in RL: When you rest one on a wall using the bipod, is the recoil more manageable? I really hope BIS does implement this feature in a future patch.

[Beagle]

I think you might misunderstand me. I was getting at the fact that a single shot from a MG should not kick more than a shot from a comparable rifle due to the mass of the weapons. But this might just be a limitation of the game engine. I really have no idea what parameters are moddeled in the Arma engine.

Anyways, isn't it great that BIS can leave such minutiae for us to hash out while they worry about the big picture?

Actually, the original M-14 did have a full auto setting. I have fired a civilian semi-auto M-14 on a few occasions, and it kicks like a mule. Why they orginally made that thing in full auto, I'll never understand.

Question for you, since you have fired MGs in RL: When you rest one on a wall using the bipod, is the recoil more manageable? I really hope BIS does implement this feature in a future patch.With a rested MG weighting like 12kg on bipod you wont really feel any recoil at all...its more like a soft continious push. If you do it right you just have to press your body and shoulder against the butt, thats enough to keep it stable. Thats why I prefered the MG3 all the time in life shooting over the G3 Battle rifle, also chambered in 7.62x51. When in 1998 the G36 was finally introduced it felt like a pea shooter.

Unsupported I was never able to fire the thing (MG3) in any kind that can be called controllable. I was a 72kg 20 year old at that time.

[Frederf]

It does seem weird that the DMR would recoil less than the M240 both fired 1 round from the standing position. I mean there are plenty of other factors in how a body copes with recoil besides just the mass of the weapon and the impulse of the round exiting. There's polar moment of inertia, stamina state of the shooter, where hands are placed, recoil impulse-to-shoulder alignment, and if the weapon is heavy enough to be straining the shooter his leftover strength to compensate for the impulse of a shot might be less.

My fellow 4thIB member, deployed several times to 'stan, makes known how silly it is that any soldier could stand with the M240 at the high ready for any length of time beyond the count of 3 when in ArmA we can do it till the sun sets and rises again.

[wamingo]

what about makeing the recoil slightly based on the units skill?
imo it's not proper to differentiate like that in simulation games. If you'd make US specops a bit better than US army, would you also make US soldiers better than takistani soldiers? Or US pilots better than Russian? Doesn't seem right does it?

[MavericK96]

I don't know if this has really been addressed, but does the new recoil affect AI as well? (both friendly and enemy)

[GiorgyGR]

imo it's not proper to differentiate like that in simulation games. If you'd make US specops a bit better than US army, would you also make US soldiers better than takistani soldiers? Or US pilots better than Russian? Doesn't seem right does it?

Well..its a nice thought..
You don't have to "categorize" factions ..but "classes"
I m sure a Special forces operator (US/Russian/Martian) has more "talent" in shooting compared with "regular infantry".
A pilot (based on logic) should have Less talent in shooting even from a "regular infantry"..because his talent/job is to fly.

I think this "scenario" has a lot of potential -from Single player missions
to more realism and balance in Multiplayer.

[CarlGustaffa]

My fellow 4thIB member, deployed several times to 'stan, makes known how silly it is that any soldier could stand with the M240 at the high ready for any length of time beyond the count of 3 when in ArmA we can do it till the sun sets and rises again.

I agree, and how I'd like to solve this is by letting gun carrier always be under influence of stamina - great shake, out of breath, and thus not very combat effective while standing.

But how do I "add stamina effects"? I can create some artificial blur etc, but that would only feel artificial and be prone to complaints.

[Richey79]

Well..its a nice thought..
You don't have to "categorize" factions ..but "classes"
I m sure a Special forces operator (US/Russian/Martian) has more "talent" in shooting compared with "regular infantry".
A pilot (based on logic) should have Less talent in shooting even from a "regular infantry"..because his talent/job is to fly.

I think this "scenario" has a lot of potential -from Single player missions
to more realism and balance in Multiplayer.

Sounds a lot like Vault-Tec Assisted Targeting System.

Roll above 15 to hit Takistani soldier for 50 damage points.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:TMxvw6JZiVcJAM:http://www.mopo.ca/uploaded_images/geek-dice-737945.jpg

I like A2 to be a bit closer to an FPS than this. If my Chernorussian Priest manages to take out an entire FOB of USMC soldiers, then good for him.

[aeggwards1]

Tested on Build 72107 (no mods).

I for one prefer the old arma 2 model with added camera shake as it pretty accurately simulates the longitudinal kickback of the weapon.

Some variation could be added according to the stance and the fatigue state but once the shot has been fired the weapon should return near it's last pos very fast (specially while in prone pos).

Having to steer it back once the trigger has been released isn't realistic at all.


I sort of agree with this, at the moment I find the representation to be off putting. I like where BIS is going with this in the latest betas but it is still drastic. If it stays as it is, maybe a option to retain the current recoil (or lack of) or a drastically reduce upwards jump could be added.

[wamingo]

A pilot (based on logic) should have Less talent in shooting even from a "regular infantry"..because his talent/job is to fly.
That's a perfectly extreme example of what I don't want to happen, because I don't want to have to pick a pilot class to be able to fly in the missions that I play.
I of course won't mind if there are scripting abilities to give such class limitations and advantages so that others can enjoy them. But I want to have the ability to jump from a M1A1 straight into an SU34 with my takistani civilian character. That might sound incredibly dumb, but it's a part of the sand that is in the box. When you create fixed advantages and limitations you take that sand out.

[ruebe]

That's a perfectly extreme example of what I don't want to happen, because I don't want to have to pick a pilot class to be able to fly in the missions that I play.
I of course won't mind if there are scripting abilities to give such class limitations and advantages so that others can enjoy them. But I want to have the ability to jump from a M1A1 straight into an SU34 with my takistani civilian character. That might sound incredibly dumb, but it's a part of the sand that is in the box. When you create fixed advantages and limitations you take that sand out.

Nothing would be fixed nor limited. The command setSkill wouldn't magically disappear, you know? So if you would like to play a takistan rambo with uberskills in your mission, you still could do it.
How skill is distributed over sides, factions or even roles is totally up to the missionmaker. So please, if you don't like an idea, fine. But don't try too hard to come up with flawed arguments only for the sake of it. :rolleyes:

[arthur666]

My fellow 4thIB member, deployed several times to 'stan, makes known how silly it is that any soldier could stand with the M240 at the high ready for any length of time beyond the count of 3 when in ArmA we can do it till the sun sets and rises again.
Yeah, when I say there should be some sway while standing/shouldering an M240, I mean SERIOUS struggling, it should move a lot after a couple seconds.

[Curry]

Yeah, when I say there should be some sway while standing/shouldering an M240, I mean SERIOUS struggling, it should move a lot after a couple seconds.
This would apply to this:
http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=102987

Better non IS aiming position of guns. You cannot hold the gun the way the soldier does in ArmA all day long.

[wamingo]

Nothing would be fixed nor limited. The command setSkill wouldn't magically disappear, you know? So if you would like to play a takistan rambo with uberskills in your mission, you still could do it.
How skill is distributed over sides, factions or even roles is totally up to the missionmaker. So please, if you don't like an idea, fine. But don't try too hard to come up with flawed arguments only for the sake of it. :rolleyes:

rolleyes wins arguments obviously.
And why would I try to make flawed arguments?
And what's flawed about it?
I doubt you can deny it sounded an awful lot like what you wanted was to give specops (or whatever) a lower recoil than others by default - what I called fixed, hardcoded is maybe a better word. ie if both a taki and specop had setSkill 1.0 then specop would still be superior.

You asked for thoughts and I gave them.

[arthur666]

This would apply to this:
http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=102987

Better non IS aiming position of guns. You cannot hold the gun the way the soldier does in ArmA all day long.
I seem to remember in Hidden & Dangerous 2, you could NOT shoulder heavier MGs (Bren gun). They could only be fired prone. This worked pretty well. But I would still like to be able to fire from the hip in case I had a close encounter while moving thru a town to a firing postition. Spray 'n' pray, but no shouldering. That would be cool.

[Curry]

I seem to remember in Hidden & Dangerous 2, you could NOT shoulder heavier MGs (Bren gun). They could only be fired prone. This worked pretty well. But I would still like to be able to fire from the hip in case I had a close encounter while moving thru a town to a firing postition. Spray 'n' pray, but no shouldering. That would be cool.
Yeah like the old OFP days. I think you could do hip firing. :D

[wamingo]

like the old OFP days. I think you could do hip firing
Just when running I think.

[Frederf]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxllVBTI84I

I'm impressed with this level of control. Of course you're not watching the tracers down range so it's hard to tell how "broad side of barn" his accuracy is but it seems pretty good.

[CarlGustaffa]

And I thought these (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bn3GvvkA6U) guys were cool :) G36 night shooting, from the hip, actually hitting targets at 700m :D

[NkEnNy]

The new recoil is fine.
Its not really about realism – arma2 does a poor job at emulating weapon handling in any case – whats important is the change in gameplay.

It is now much harder to put down unrealistic levels of perfectly accurate fire. (basically negating AI at certain ranges). For PvP it gets even better because the new recoil ALLOWS manoeuvring – particularly in OA where cover tends to be scarce.

Animations are the weak link
As more than one person has noted – animations are the weak link of weapon handling in Arma2. Whilst leaps and bounds ahead of Arma1, the lack of smoothly flowing animations and sometimes technically WRONG animations does more to hurt gameplay than many other things.

Pressing the Optics button should refer to ‘shouldering’ the weapon. When stationary the weapon should be looking through the sights. Whilst moving (walking or jogging) the weapon ought to be held at low ready position . Whilst sprinting the weapon should be unavailable.

When not shouldered the weapon can still discharged, though increasing recoil or affecting dispersion would be appropriate.

Currently
:: Optics mode affects movement too much.
:: Optics offers no real advantages to crosshair mode.
:: Optics adds slow and ‘wooden’ animations

-k

[twisted]

Yeah, when I say there should be some sway while standing/shouldering an M240, I mean SERIOUS struggling, it should move a lot after a couple seconds.

there should be more sway on all weapons as soldiers are not mechanical supports.

[[NL]raptor]

I totally hate the new recoil system and tbh it ruins the whole game-feeling for me. Sure is looks more realistic at first BUT its not when you think about it. A kick is normal yes, but just like IRL the gun automaticly comes down.

I mean have you ever saw someone shoot and stay still with its barrel up in the air...

The old recoil was just perfect, you had to wait for your crosshair to come down. Now when I fire 3 shots I need to pull my mouse down a meter. Boehoe BI!

[Serclaes]

And I thought these (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5bn3GvvkA6U) guys were cool :) G36 night shooting, from the hip, actually hitting targets at 700m :D

Look at these guys, that's more like it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6dDjr3GHZQ
Btw, the others are shooting with LLM, the german counterpart of the PEQ2s. You can see the IR dot moving in the distance.

[Frederf]

raptor;1687713']I totally hate the new recoil system and tbh it ruins the whole game-feeling for me. Sure is looks more realistic at first BUT its not when you think about it. A kick is normal yes, but just like IRL the gun automaticly comes down.

I mean have you ever saw someone shoot and stay still with its barrel up in the air...

The old recoil was just perfect, you had to wait for your crosshair to come down. Now when I fire 3 shots I need to pull my mouse down a meter. Boehoe BI!

It was perfect that you could close your eyes and click and each bullet would be fired with the barrel in 100.0000000% in the same position? Please. "Player in the loop" is a huge improvement over "Doing it all for you." Ruined? Each semi auto shot requires a fraction of a millimeter of mouse movement to compensate.

[aeggwards1]

raptor;1687713']I totally hate the new recoil system and tbh it ruins the whole game-feeling for me. Sure is looks more realistic at first BUT its not when you think about it. A kick is normal yes, but just like IRL the gun automaticly comes down.

I mean have you ever saw someone shoot and stay still with its barrel up in the air...

The old recoil was just perfect, you had to wait for your crosshair to come down. Now when I fire 3 shots I need to pull my mouse down a meter

As I was saying earlier, my thoughts exactly. When all you play is single player the new recoil is a serious disadvantage against the AI. They can kill you without to many issues in vanilla and it is even easier for them now as I spend half my time wrestling with the mouse. This is supposed to be a game and fun, I don't find it much fun dying because I am wrestling with my mouse. Please tone it down or add an option to return to vanilla.

[CarlGustaffa]

Considering all the amazingly stupid things the AI do, how is that a bad thing? :p In any case, I think it's fine. If AI is too brutal on you, reduce their accuracy. The old way was simply nuts.


Whilst moving (walking or jogging) the weapon ought to be held at low ready position .

I definitely don't want to be forced into low ready by walking. Currently it is by choice, as it should be, although the low ready in the game is a more relaxed version. Could it use more? Yeah, probably. Do I want to control more? Not really.

[aeggwards1]

Fair point, vanilla lack of recoil system sucks, I will agree with that. What I am hoping for is just the current betas recoil to be slighty reduced. Then I would be happy! :)

[Curry]

I definitely don't want to be forced into low ready by walking. Currently it is by choice, as it should be, although the low ready in the game is a more relaxed version. Could it use more? Yeah, probably. Do I want to control more? Not really.
The weapon should be lowered in my opinion when you are not in IS mode in 3rd person view. But a position where you can still shoot without a delay.

I can't remember how this was done in OFP but I have a feeling, that in ArmA the animation for holding the gun is much more "machine like". When you are not in IS mode, the soldier holds the gun always in front of his eyes in 3rd person view which is a bit unrealistic for an M240 or even an M4 not only that, it looks stupid as well. These things weigh something and you don't have arms of steel. :D

[Murklor]

The new recoil is fine.
Its not really about realism – arma2 does a poor job at emulating weapon handling in any case – whats important is the change in gameplay.

It is now much harder to put down unrealistic levels of perfectly accurate fire. (basically negating AI at certain ranges). For PvP it gets even better because the new recoil ALLOWS manoeuvring – particularly in OA where cover tends to be scarce.

I definetly agree with this. Its the same way damage is handled in other games (such as Bad Company 2). Its not really about absolute realism, its about percieved realism. And that is not getting pegged in the head by a machinegun at 500m in the middle of a warzone, its about massive amounts of firepower.

HOWEVER there is a fatal flaw in this and that is ammo. Most games are quick deathmatches, where say 2-3 MG boxes is plenty and then you die. Not so in A2/OA. Last Domination mission I played with a scoped M249, it just didnt work. Engagement ranges maybe around 300m, just when you start to notice bullet drops. I couldnt hit crap. Which is fun by all means! It was awesome laying down fire instead of being uber-accurate for a change! But not so much fun when I had no ammo after 3-4 dead enemies, averaging 1 kill per box.

I know A2/OA is capable of true ammo carrying support, but lets face it - it doesnt happen unless the mission designer force it down your throat.

I hope missions adjust pretty damn fast to this change and gives us more and easier ways to resupply, or even more will turn to snipers :rolleyes:

[CarlGustaffa]

@<hidden>:
High ready is the most natural stance in the game. Most missions are quite action filled, and quite unlike the real deal where you can wait for days for something interesting to happen.

In other words, there tend to be more fighting than waiting in missions. You can go "low ready" (or, relaxed) whenever you feel like it by double tapping ctrl, and I think most do when not in action. I'm willing to "look stupid" as long as the controls aren't getting in the way of me interacting with the game. Having to press fire to get weapon high ready can easily cause accidental discharge of weapon (I've done it myself) - which could become a tactical problem. Keep in mind, sometimes the double tap ctrl doesn't even work for getting weapon high ready.

I agree that running around with M240 in high ready for a prolonged time "looks bad" and is unrealistic even. I tend to be machinegunner or saw gunner myself if I'm given the choice and have no issues with having to lower weapon manually.

I never use 3rd person except when waiting. And then I sit. Frankly it annoys the hell out of me that all veteran servers I find have 3rd person and crosshairs enabled. And there are almost no expert servers around to make up for it. Not sure why you brought up "unrealistic M240 handling" together with "in 3rd person"... When crosshairs are not enabled, and especially for freezone floaters and/or trackIR users, the gun in high ready also shows in which direction you are interacting, without having to look down.


Last Domination mission I played with a scoped M249, it just didnt work. Engagement ranges maybe around 300m, just when you start to notice bullet drops. I couldnt hit crap. Which is fun by all means! It was awesome laying down fire instead of being uber-accurate for a change! But not so much fun when I had no ammo after 3-4 dead enemies, averaging 1 kill per box.

I know A2/OA is capable of true ammo carrying support, but lets face it - it doesnt happen unless the mission designer force it down your throat.

I hope missions adjust pretty damn fast to this change and gives us more and easier ways to resupply, or even more will turn to snipers :rolleyes:

In the Domination I played, I noticed Xeno (appeared fairly unmodded) had only given us 100rnd M249 ammo... I can suppress like mad if I'm given the chance, from far beyond 300m. I don't expect getting kills at that range though, but the idea for me is roleplaying and making sure the enemy doesn't get the chance to hit my squadmates with accurate fire. This enhances the maneuver part. Yesterday I played for about 3 hours and had only 7 kills. Most of the time I just sat around waiting for someone to pick me up (I hate that cheap parachuting thing, completely ruins teamwork - always someone who have to get in early and get spotted so the enemy air is ready for us when we get equipment in) since the admin locked helis (fair enough, fully understandable from what I've seen elsewhere). In that time I think 6 or 7 targets had been solved, I only got to 4 of them, but due to the "speed of this gamemode" I only got to shoot at 1 of them - for everyone else it was just rush rush rush - I finally gave up. I only got killed once though, but due to heavy lag. But that's a point; use the weapon to suppress the enemy instead of always going for the kill - at least with AI you'll live longer - and I hate dieing :D

I think you would have liked my Domino though (Arma2/ACE2). Same "game mechanics" as the original (but more infantry oriented, greatly toned down armor, but increased artillery but with higher survivability, and quite limited everything - a very tight concept, unlike the original which is extremely open), but most of the "free goodies" were either turned off by default, or completely removed. Played out pretty good where I joined it.

[wamingo]

Do I want to control more? Not really.
I do, I want to control more. This game is too arcady :)

Haven't seen you complain about any of the number of new things to control that BIS added with OA either...

Seriously though, see my proposal here:
http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=1684709&postcount=8
I think it would feel pretty automatic and realistic.
The big counter argument is it introduces delay, but I think the delay is actually part of what would be realistic. ArmA needs to be a bit slow. The word "instant" doesn't exist in the arma-dictionary.

Yesterday I fell over a old feature request on the CIT that suggested that it should take a a couple of seconds to switch positions in vehicles. And I thought hell yeah, that's exactly what arma needs! Don't have to go over the edge about it, but enough to symbolize that: yo man, solo operating a whole tank is kind of silly, mkay? ;)
I forgot to vote though..

[Wolfstriked]

A change to controls would cure this.Bring up optics(Rmouse)changed so that when clicked it looks like the shouldered view we have now and when you click Rmouse again it drops weapon down.Makes it easy to bring weapon up and down....animations for this should be enhanced also.Now if you wanna aim down sight you hold Rmouse and weapon comes up and zooms.

[Curry]

In other words, there tend to be more fighting than waiting in missions. You can go "low ready" (or, relaxed) whenever you feel like it by double tapping ctrl, and I think most do when not in action.
I do it too. ;)



I'm willing to "look stupid" as long as the controls aren't getting in the way of me interacting with the game. Having to press fire to get weapon high ready can easily cause accidental discharge of weapon (I've done it myself) - which could become a tactical problem. Keep in mind, sometimes the double tap ctrl doesn't even work for getting weapon high ready.
I don't see a problem with the controls getting in the way of players interactions when the 3rd person animation adjusts to the 1st person animation. When you are not in IS mode, you soldier ingame lowers the gun. This should be seen in 3rd person view. You would still point the gun in front of you and you would still see where you aim at and you can still fire the gun. ;)

What I explained is just a lowered position in 3rd person view just like the unsighted 1st person view. Nothing would change except the 3rd person animation for an unsighted gun.

Accidental discharges already happen with the lowered weapon animation when you press control twice and you minimize arma to get to your desktop. You click on the Arma icon in your taskbar with the LEFT MOUSE button and there you have your accidental discharge.

With my suggestion of a lowered weapon animation in 3rd person view nothing would change in the current game mechanics.



I never use 3rd person except when waiting.
On my squad server this is always disabled same goes for crosshairs.



Not sure why you brought up "unrealistic M240 handling" together with "in 3rd person"...
When you look at your team mates ingame and their guns are always in sighted position when standing, crouching and laying it becomes annoying and quite unrealistic. With my "system" you would see them only with sighted weapons when they are in IS mode. Otherwise their guns would be lowered but still pointing forward and ready to shoot just a bit lowered that they can rest their guns on their leg when in crouch position or resting on their hip when standing.







The big counter argument is it introduces delay, but I think the delay is actually part of what would be realistic. ArmA needs to be a bit slow. The word "instant" doesn't exist in the arma-dictionary.
As I wrote already in your thread that won't work. ;)

This would hinder you more then anything else. I think a "low ready" position for your gun in 3rd person view when you are not in IS mode should do the trick. ;)

[wamingo]

As I wrote already in your thread that won't work. ;)

This would hinder you more then anything else. I think a "low ready" position for your gun in 3rd person view when you are not in IS mode should do the trick. ;)
Not liking delay and not working is not the same thing.

An un-equal 1st and 3rd person animation I think will be regarded as worse than the current system. (As I wrote in option 2).
You don't want an animation to occur first person that doesn't happen 3rd person. You want it to be equal.

Try starting up editor with a rifleman, and turn on time acceleration, then repeatedly lower weapon and raise weapon and see if you think the little delay would be a game killer for you. Of course it'd have to be fluent with movement and all that.

[Curry]

Not liking delay and not working is not the same thing.
With not working I mean you will see hardly any people that want this system. So an implementation in Arma will not work. :D

As you see, even my little suggestion for a better 3rd person animation for an unsighted weapon isn't welcome. ;)

An always sighted gun position seems what people want.


Something like this what I had in mind:


Ironsight view for both 1st and 3rd person:
http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/128/57051696.jpg

Low ready view for both 1st and 3rd person:
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/6760/32152132.jpg

holstered gun for both 1st and 3rd person:
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/7964/28926415.jpg

[No Use For A Name]

raptor;1687713']I totally hate the new recoil system and tbh it ruins the whole game-feeling for me. Sure is looks more realistic at first BUT its not when you think about it. A kick is normal yes, but just like IRL the gun automaticly comes down.

I mean have you ever saw someone shoot and stay still with its barrel up in the air...

The old recoil was just perfect, you had to wait for your crosshair to come down. Now when I fire 3 shots I need to pull my mouse down a meter. Boehoe BI!

Wrong, the gun doesn't "automatically" move down to where it was before you shot. Yes, it does move down due to weight and the shooter knowing where to follow up the next shot; but in the old recoil system it would move back to exactly the same spot which is not realistic. Sorry, guess you can't unload a full magazine and hit a 2-square-foot area at 300+ meters anymore :o:

[Wolfstriked]

The "low ready" view looks like hip firing in first person while shouldered in third.Reason is that the camera view point is not looking out from where the player model's eyes are but instead is way above the head.You see this when someone made a sunglasses mod and the sunglasses in first person where way down on bottom of screen.You also notice this while driving...you cant look out the side windows in certain humvees.But,if they had not done this,then the weapon scopes would block so much view.

I am all for Rmouse bringing up and lowereing weapon with hold Rmouse aiming and zooming.

[ruebe]

Physically correct or not, at this point I'm quite sure that - gameplaywise - it would be much better to simply randomize the direction of the recoil in such a controlled way, that the randomization doesn't add up into any particular way. The gun wouldn't jump back to the previous position as in vanilla, but also it wouldn't drag your weapon away from the target into any particular direction. You'd still have to adjust slightly after every shot, sometimes a bit more, sometimes less, always into another direction. But it would end this constant mouse draging while shooting, which is a pain in the ass for a lot of weapons. Really.

[arthur666]

Physically correct or not, at this point I'm quite sure that - gameplaywise - it would be much better to simply randomize the direction of the recoil in such a controlled way, that the randomization doesn't add up into any particular way. The gun wouldn't jump back to the previous position as in vanilla, but also it wouldn't drag your weapon away from the target into any particular direction. You'd still have to adjust slightly after every shot, sometimes a bit more, sometimes less, always into another direction. But it would end this constant mouse draging while shooting, which is a pain in the ass for a lot of weapons. Really.
Yes yes yes. This is what I want. This most accurately represents what I find when I shoot in real life, and would be the least irritating while making the game a little more challenging, in a good way. Yes, almost all guns kick up when you shoot them. But after you shoot, gravity does the lowering for you, however you still have to take a moment to re-aim afterwards. If, in Arma, as in RL, you fire rapidly or in full auto, the muzzle should or will climb, respectively.

I do however admit that I have gotten used to the 72107 recoil model, and I could live with it ( as opposed to what? abandon the best military game ever? or never update it again?), but still don't think it is perfect.

[Chumba]

I agree with both ruebe and arthur666 - but when all's said and done my biggest personal issue is the speed of the recoils regardless of how they're done - maybe I drink too much coffee or something but all weapons in ARMA2 and OA feel like old time muskets - "click - BOOM" - and I end up with serious timing issues when laying fire.

BIS: MAKE RECOILS MUCH FASTER.

[CarlGustaffa]

@<hidden>: Ok, I now see why I don't agree. The "low ready" I know looks a lot more like your "holstered". "My low ready" is being in a ready pose (vs the relaxed pose in the game), but with rifle buttstock firmly placed and gun pointed downward. That's the reason I think it wouldn't work well.

Even with todays high ready, the gun is barely visible when zoomed in (concentration mode, or actual FOV if you will). So there is not much to go on at least in 1st person view.

For 3rd person view, yeah, maybe the gun could be offset a little to indicate gunner not being in the sights. But only as long as 1st person view isn't touched. And I think that is a problem with the engine; nothing really changes in terms of animation. When you go sighted, all that happens is a change of camera position. Easily verified with hinting animationState player.

So it's not that I don't want the change, I just don't find it easily implemented in the current engine. Too much to rewrite. And currently 1st and 3rd person animation states have to be equal. And again, I really wouldn't want 1st person "low ready" (which is really high ready) to be changed in order to "fix stupid 3rd person look".

[7]

Can you please take the low-ready discussion in another thread? I want to read people's opinions and arguments on the new recoil.

[Frederf]

Most people that have a considered, non-polarized opinion on the ArmA recoil development all seem to agree on three things as far as I have read in the various threads on the subject:

1. Old recoil was bad because it automatically returns your point of aim exactly where it started with no human "in the control loop."

2. New recoil is better because it it removes the 100% automatic and unrealistic return to center after the recoil pulse keeping the shooter "in the control loop," requiring skill on the part of the player, and reducing performance to believable levels. However the annoying side effect is that all return to center must be done by the player, requiring a directional net mouse drag over several recoil recoveries.

3. The ideal (or at least better than #1, #2) would be a combination of some automated return-to-center but not perfectly so. The user would still be "in the loop" having to correct for displaced point of aim after each shot but would not be required to do all of it. The two simplest models are "partial linear recovery" and "random circular recovery."

Partial linear recovery would, in the simplest example case mean that without mouse input a shot aimed at (0,0) center of the screen might jump up to (0,1) due to the recoil and then settle down to (0,0.5) all "hands off." Thus it would be up to the player to adjust the aim from (0,0.5) to (0,0) manually to fire the next shot in the same direction as the previous. The benefit is that the amount of user correction is reduced (thus reducing mouse input) while still having non-perfect automatic recovery.

The unique benefit over the method I'm about to describe next is that because the recovery point is in line with the initial point and the point of maximum recoil and thus there is a tendency for the muzzle to drift (usually climb) in one direction. This adds in the possibility for a skilled user to be faced with a muzzle drift tendency during rapid fire and being able to compensate for it with skillful opposite mouse drag.

The random circular recovery method is to have the final recovery point randomly located in a circular area from the original point of aim. Starting at (0,0) as before and the recoil deflecting the muzzle to (0,1) as before, but this time the automatic "hands off" recovery destination might be (+0.2, -0.4) down and to the right. Firing again might cause the muzzle to climb from (+0.2, -0.4) to (+0.2, +0.6) (an increase of 1.0 vertically) and then return automatically to perhaps (+0.1, +0.3) which would be slightly left and below where it started before firing that second shot.

The unique feature of this over the linear partial recovery method is that sustained fire statistically does not have the muzzle drift in any particular direction preferentially. The rest of the recovery (after the automatic portion which is done by the player) is also not always the same to return to the original point of aim. Firing sustained means that mouse pad limits should not be reached as the corrective mouse movements would be in different directions canceling out their net displacement.

Real life is of course probably a combination of these two simple methods. A M1 Thompson 0.45 cal sub machine gun would probably be primarily the first linear type exhibiting profound muzzle climb but with some circular method because of the shooter.

A bipod M240 would be the reverse, experiencing very little muzzle climb and having most of its post-recoil aim point displacement be circular.

[wamingo]

sustained fire statistically does not have the muzzle drift in any particular direction preferentially.
I think you meant to write "settle down to (0,0.5)"?

Anyway, while it's probably true that drift isn't one direction in reality, I think it might be wise to stick to one direction, because the predictability actually encourages the player's constant involvement. If you have a completely random distribution, ie one without "forced trends" then it only make sense to get involved when the distribution has made outliers. And after outliers you can often expect a regression to the mean and you may have a tendency to overshoot the correction, "dramatically".

I would probably have to see it in action really, but I suspect random direction muzzle drift, or even forced trends muzzle dirft, could end up being impossible to adjust for.

[Curry]

@<hidden>: Ok, I now see why I don't agree. The "low ready" I know looks a lot more like your "holstered". "My low ready" is being in a ready pose (vs the relaxed pose in the game), but with rifle buttstock firmly placed and gun pointed downward. That's the reason I think it wouldn't work well.

Even with todays high ready, the gun is barely visible when zoomed in (concentration mode, or actual FOV if you will). So there is not much to go on at least in 1st person view.

For 3rd person view, yeah, maybe the gun could be offset a little to indicate gunner not being in the sights. But only as long as 1st person view isn't touched. And I think that is a problem with the engine; nothing really changes in terms of animation. When you go sighted, all that happens is a change of camera position. Easily verified with hinting animationState player.

So it's not that I don't want the change, I just don't find it easily implemented in the current engine. Too much to rewrite. And currently 1st and 3rd person animation states have to be equal. And again, I really wouldn't want 1st person "low ready" (which is really high ready) to be changed in order to "fix stupid 3rd person look".

Okay, understand your concerns also. :)

It was just an idea to indicate others that you are not in IS mode. Maybe this can be done with another solution.

[Frederf]

I think you meant to write "settle down to (0,0.5)"?

Yeah I wrote the first part and then had to go back and change some numbers to make it match the second part. I missed a correction.


predictability actually encourages the player's constant involvement. If you have a completely random distribution, ie one without "forced trends" then it only make sense to get involved when the distribution has made outliers.

I would probably have to see it in action really, but I suspect random direction muzzle drift, or even forced trends muzzle dirft, could end up being impossible to adjust for.

Well I would think that "actually hitting your target" would be the primary motivation. The circular distribution means that for slow semi fire in the "aim, shoot, adjust" cycle is applied for each shot. The shooter isn't going to thing "well, screw it, since there's no predictable trend I'm just going to spray and pray" since there's plenty of time for evaluation and correction between each shot and this seems to agree with common sense.

It's fully automatic fire where this changes. Since there is no time to adjust between shots and the adjustment required is not predictable then the shooter simply must accept the fact that the point of aim will "jitter around" during the burst which seems to match videos of such shooting rather well qualitatively. This encourages the 3-10 round burst, stopping occasionally to check that the point of aim is close to where it should be.

Also one could get a difference of behavior simply because the automatic recovery takes time that might be longer than the time between shots at the cyclic rate of fire. Thus you could have circular error for slow semi M16 fire but using the same system get muzzle climb with the M249 at full cyclic rate. The directionality comes from the fact that the post-shot recovery destination may be unbiased in direction but it hasn't been allowed to arrive from the upward-biased recoil because the next shot interrupts the downwardish travel! With this interruption on the way down from the recoil peak you introduce directional tendency simply because of the timing of it all.

"Hands off mouse" shooting would mean that several shots spaced out in time would have no directional tendency but for shots of lesser time interval than the recovery time there would exhibit a directional tendency (e.g. muzzle climb.)

[NkEnNy]

I think you meant to write "settle down to (0,0.5)"?

Anyway, while it's probably true that drift isn't one direction in reality, I think it might be wise to stick to one direction, because the predictability actually encourages the player's constant involvement. If you have a completely random distribution, ie one without "forced trends" then it only make sense to get involved when the distribution has made outliers. And after outliers you can often expect a regression to the mean and you may have a tendency to overshoot the correction, "dramatically".

I would probably have to see it in action really, but I suspect random direction muzzle drift, or even forced trends muzzle dirft, could end up being impossible to adjust for.

Absolutely. Random recoil may sound like a novel feature, but in practice it fails.

[Frederf]

In practice you fail at reading. The recoil isn't random, the recoil recovery (would be) is. If you hold a broomstick and I smack it on the end with a small hammer, your return to where it was pointed will not be perfect.

[Chumba]

Having had a go at playing in earnest I'm not liking the displaced recoil - after a while it gets tedious fighting my weapon as much as fighting the enemy.

Ultimately there's a lot to be said for the return to origin model in the context of making for something that is engaging, useful and fun for gameplay. The big thing for me is screen jump - which is a keeper - but as soon as I can figure out how, I'm personally going to put recentering back into my game.

[MavericK96]

I agree about the displacement. It seems way too exaggerated to the point where you're constantly pulling your mouse downward just to get back on target. I have no problem with slight adjustment after a couple shots, but as-is it's kind of ridiculous.

[Wolfstriked]

Maverick have you tried the M4 or M16 from RH?It has a very small recoil and so it feels real good even on auto.Then try RH AK102.It is a larger recoil and is slightly harder to control.Then try RH AKM and its terrible with no control at all on auto.Since AK102 is a 5.56x45 like the M4 family it should be doing the same climb close to what the M4 achieves with extreme minute variances due to velocity etc.Slightly higher than what is used for the AK102 could be used for 7.62 rifles with variances again due to different said rifles.The AKM recoil amount needs to go.

That said,I have pointed this out before and no one took...the mouse sensitivity lessens as you zoom.Try this experiemnt to see what I mean.Bring up iron sight and fire on full auto and then zoom in while firing...all of a sudden the recoil becomes a huge amount stronger.This is with iron sights so the effect is magnified with scopes and the M40 with its too little recoil per shot and ease of handling becomes a nightmare while zoomed in.

---------- Post added at 07:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:21 PM ----------

^^^Edit I shouldn't mention RH weapon pack as the OA weapons are rather good.Its IMO the zoom effect that is making it feel uncontrollable.Maybe also they could remove the dexterity setting or set to zero when prone.Would make weapon easier to handle then.

[Chumba]

Ahh... - yes, you might have hit the nail there Wolfstriked.

[MavericK96]

Maverick have you tried the M4 or M16 from RH?

I have not. Link?

[Wolfstriked]

Here you go.Its a nice weapon pack but I also feel that OA weapons are good just more tweaking per weapon.It seems there is very little variance of recoil size per weapon.Its like they are all the same actually.Could be the dexterity of each weapon masking the recoil,lots of variables effecting the individual feel of the different weapons.The M4A1 custom feels real nice,great sound and nice kickback effect!

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=8056

[WyndonP]

I'd suggest, that instead of creating something that is creating such strong feelings for either side of the argument- love or hate the lack of reset- that BIS make it a selectable setting, a la the head bob slider or something you can turn either on or off, like camera shake. That way the ones who think it's the bee's knees can run it as high as they like, and those others who dislike it can shut it off or decrease it to an enjoyable point for them. Best of both worlds. ;)

BIS is trying to replicate the effect of shooting offhand, which I can respect. Shooting while standing with no support is a tough thing to do well and it's why you seldom see anyone doing it rapidly. I think BIS' version may be a bit high for what is ultimately a game, but I can understand where they're headed with it. The shooters amongst us here will identify with trying to shoot offhand at any appreciable range (100 yards or better) and try and hit a torso or head size target. Now try and double or triple tap and you get an idea of what BIS is trying to do with the new effect. It's nearly impossible with a real weapon and hit what you want to. That said, I'd like to have the ability to tailor it to my tastes.

[Alex72]

Turning weapon recoil off is not an option. That will be cheating as it gets easier for those who turn it off. However as said - if newcomers have problems with it then at lower settings (recruit or lower) the recoil can be friendlier.

Personally i love the recoil. I hit everything i want to hit and it feels more "alive" than just going up and to the right everytime plus re-centers perfectly. Too easy imo.

[mr.g-c]

Recoil and climb is fine in the Demo IMHO, i would even say the MK17s need a bit bigger "climb"...

For the Ironsight/Animation issue.
See my old suggestion here: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=67108&highlight=ironsights

[Cyclone83]

Again, this would be called "possibility of cheating", so this option unfortunately won't get implementet I'm afraid.

[MavericK96]

It doesn't need to be turned off or reverted back, just tweaked some more for certain weapons (whatever you are given in Laser Show (MK16? 17? not sure) comes to mind as being way too jumpy)

[WyndonP]

Turning weapon recoil off is not an option. That will be cheating as it gets easier for those who turn it off.

Reading comprehension 101:

I never said "turning weapon recoil off". I said "reset". That is, returning to point of aim. There can be a certain amount of float to return of point of aim factored in and depending on the slider setting or toggle, it can be removed, just like the aiming dead zone and head bob that already exists in game. I never even came close to recommending eliminating recoil in my post.

I like realism in my game, I just am saying there are certain points where it starts being far too real and stops being fun, i.e., ACE's stamina system, which is the first thing I yank out upon every update. There are a lot of people that don't want to have to fight the reticle back to point of aim after every shot and chase rounds all over the place at 100m. Yeah, it prolongs firefights but it also gets you killed, adding to a player's frustration. That I understand.

I'm not saying I'd use the slider or that I even want it, I'm just playing devil's advocate and supporting the idea of choice or running the game at one's choice of more or less of an arcade type setting. It's already possible for MP servers to choose certain parameters, forcing the use of patches, difficulty settings, etc., why not have a reset parameter that will give a level playing field if the fear is that some's reset is different than yours?

[Frederf]

In no way can the "100% automatic return to point of aim" be an option. Not only is that backpedaling in terms of realism, it would give the old-style user an unacceptable shooting performance advantage. Your personal CoD-standard definition of "fun" aside, the rest of us want ArmA to continue on its mission. This is not a "difficulty option" but an evolution in the modeling of the universe in ArmA like how helicopter flight changed in ArmA1 from OFP. Plenty of people mistakenly asked for it to be an option or difficulty option then as well.

Asking for the old aiming simulation as an option is akin to asking if you could have the option of being taught that the sun goes around the earth instead of the new Copernican model.

[50.cal]

what happened with the camera shake effect on latest beta btw?? seems it as been removed...

[Chumba]

I've put 1000's of rounds thru a variety of real world weapons and if I may say so myself am quite a decent shot - and altho I intitially thought the displaced recoil in OA was ok, after actually playing for a while it's become really irritating and IMO absolutely DOESN'T return anything like I'd consider to be a facsimile / simulation of firing real weapons.

The screen shake is excellent and if it's been removed - DAMN!!!!!!! (I haven't tried that latest I have to admit), but the displacement is no good.

Compared to real life all the weapons in OA feel like their fore grips are broken or I'm firing with my left hand behind my back or something. Returning aim to origin is a virtually entirely involuntary REFLEX that a shooter performs - and OA simply doesn't return any facsimile / simulation of that. Wanking the mouse is NOT the same in any way shape or imaginary form as actual shooting.

[WildBill]

I've put 1000's of rounds thru a variety of real world weapons and if I may say so myself am quite a decent shot - and altho I intitially thought the displaced recoil in OA was ok, after actually playing for a while it's become really irritating and IMO absolutely DOESN'T return anything like I'd consider to be a facsimile / simulation of firing real weapons.

The screen shake is excellent and if it's been removed - DAMN!!!!!!! (I haven't tried that latest I have to admit), but the displacement is no good.

Compared to real life all the weapons in OA feel like their fore grips are broken or I'm firing with my left hand behind my back or something. Returning aim to origin is a virtually entirely involuntary REFLEX that a shooter performs - and OA simply doesn't return any facsimile / simulation of that. Wanking the mouse is NOT the same in any way shape or imaginary form as actual shooting.

I would agree with Chumba here. Training develops muscle 'memory' that is akin to a reflex action; I have handled and trained others with various small arms in my past professional duties, and the actions to absorb recoil and reposition a firearm is significantly different than the (much more) conscious process of jerking your mouse back to position 'x' after each shot. I do agree that the old way (where your weapon went back to rest at the same exact position) is not realistic, but the "new' way simply creates a different unrealistic issue. A good, realistic compromise from my experience would be to automatically bring the weapon perhaps 80% of the way back to a (slightly) different position.

I also will point out that the AI appears to NOT need to reposition their weapon after each shot, which gives them a patently unfair advantage in effective sustained ROF.

[CarlGustaffa]

Now try and double or triple tap and you get an idea of what BIS is trying to do with the new effect. It's nearly impossible with a real weapon and hit what you want to. That said, I'd like to have the ability to tailor it to my tastes.

Good point... Except that last part :) I want my shooting to feel consistent no matter what difficulty the server is running. And I want the same difficulty to be forced down the throats of my opponents. Do it with a mod. Such a mod won't be accepted on a PvP server for obvious reasons, and I can choose to deny such a mod on our own server.

In fact, I'd even go further, and say not to allow camera shake to be controllable (unless allowed on the server via mods). Apparently it does affect my shooting ability more than I first expected. It doesn't even feel wrong during periods of rather low FPS, which was my greatest fear (in the same sense as motion blur is experienced worse for players with bad FPS).


I also will point out that the AI appears to NOT need to reposition their weapon after each shot, which gives them a patently unfair advantage in effective sustained ROF.

Except of course that AI accuracy can be adjusted, AI doesn't care if it shoots while lying down taking out a few of his own in the process, and AI machinegunners happily shoot while standing not hitting anything with their rounds. I fail to see their unfair advantage.


Recoil and climb is fine in the Demo IMHO, i would even say the MK17s need a bit bigger "climb"...

Is the demo recoil/climb different from the beta recoil/climb?

[WildBill]

Good point... Except that last part :)

Except of course that AI accuracy can be adjusted, AI doesn't care if it shoots while lying down taking out a few of his own in the process, and AI machinegunners happily shoot while standing not hitting anything with their rounds. I fail to see their unfair advantage.


Allow me to state again exactly what I stated previously with a bit of emphasis to point out the issue I was speaking to:
"...patently unfair advantage in effective sustained ROF".

The other AI issues you speak of are exactly that, i.e. other issues; BI should address those as well.

[afp]

Good point... Except that last part :) I want my shooting to feel consistent no matter what difficulty the server is running

Agree with that, the recoil should be consistent. Making configurations per difficulty can create even more problems.

[wamingo]

what happened with the camera shake effect on latest beta btw?? seems it as been removed...
Seems to work fine for me. Check your difficulty settings. It's off by default in Recruit mode, I believe.

[50.cal]

Seems to work fine for me. Check your difficulty settings. It's off by default in Recruit mode, I believe.

Well it's still there but it seems it has been lowered to a level where I can't notice it with many weapons.
Instead It should be increased specially while aiming (using the sight).

More camera shake and less up going barrel would be perfect.
In full auto the reposition of small barrel weapons should be more random while staying within a defined circle.

Other MGs should be very stable while lying prone but please...more camera shake effect too! This really add the kick back feeling you have while you aim and shoot for real.

Also there's something wrong with the ratio aiming difficulty/effect on target. When you carefully place a shot and hit the target, the result should be more noticeable.
The ai doesn't seems to feel anything until they simply die. It's like on or off.

We know it has been reported that some wounded enemies did fire back on the battlefield. Nevertheless I don't think it means that they all do that. Specially when they physically can't. We're not throwing rocks at them, these are bullets flying at more than 900m/s.

Isn't there a way to improve how AI are damaged and reacts to recorded hits? Something making it more "believable". I mean a single 7.62 deadly bullet hit in the leg doesn't help to make it believable either.

Sorry for that last part being a bit out of topic...

[bensdale]

Yes more camara shake would be nice in my opinion.

[Inimcal_]

The recoil will be an issue in this game until the DEVs pace them selves behind an actual I.W (infantry weapon) and fire it at various ranges at various targets, Coming from the British army and having an outstanding knowledge of how to best use basic I.W's (4years - CPL (Section commander)

When in prone m249 or LMG/GPMG's wouldnt kick that much, a well trained soldier can keep rounds on a piece of a4 paper at 600mtrs with minimal splash around the targets, I think a down tone of the recoil would reduce this issue and increase realism.

[Arksa]

When in prone m249 or LMG/GPMG's wouldnt kick that much, a well trained soldier can keep rounds on a piece of a4 paper at 600mtrs with minimal splash around the targets, I think a down tone of the recoil would reduce this issue and increase realism.


Yeah currently they make the characters appear as civilians without much weapon training.

[Wolfstriked]

DO NOT RELY on BI for this.They do not have time to be pursuing perfection for each weapon instead doing broad changes for effect.I don't blame them and I would just leave as is and put option for use original or new recoil.That said I think modding community should come together on this issue.Work weapons one at a time with input from real world weapon of choice users and the community itself.For example is the SCAR.I watched a video of it where the shooters were saying it felt really good on single shot but kicked like crazy on auto.Other guns have known characteristics we could try to implement like the M16 with little felt recoil and the SAW with ability to lay down fire on piece of paper while prone.

Is their a list for spray pattern size at varying distances for each real weapon?That would help this out but I have never found one searching the net.

[ruebe]

DO NOT RELY on BI for this.They do not have time to be pursuing perfection for each weapon instead doing broad changes for effect.I don't blame them and I would just leave as is and put option for use original or new recoil.That said I think modding community should come together on this issue.

Infantery and thus the handling of guns is the core aspect of this whole game. And you suggest that "the modding community" should fix this? Are you friggin kidding me?

[Wolfstriked]

I guess your right.There are many people who just wanna install and play and never use mods.Still though for a really great weapon recoil effects I think modders would do it justice.

[Chumba]

Using screen shake is THE big answer IMO for presenting a good facsimile of weapons handling. The effect needs to be larger across the board and then tailored to individual weapons. Even if the old 100% return to origin recoil is used - if the screen "jumps" significantly then the player is forced to refocus and reestablish the target picture - very close to real life practice. Experience and familiarity eventually produces a higher degree of comfort / less disorientation - could it seriously get any better than that??? (doublethumbsup)

[7]

This new recoil needs to be tuned down. Add some more aim sway (and decrease AI accuracy likewise) and it would be perfect.

5pXTB0iUBfY

Edit: We need to be able to suppress AI even more, although this is kind of off-topic.

[Wolfstriked]

Looks good 7....how is it in auto?Any difference in sway when kneeling and prone?

[metalcraze]

New beta patch makes a recoil for assault rifles quite OK.

[50.cal]

It's good to try to improve things but looking at how it is now we're still very far from what it should be.

Nowadays with modern AR you won't see you're sight going up right. This mainly concerns those old AKs that have an heavy bolt rocking back out of the weapon axis. That's one of the main reason why you can't hit anything at range with ak47.

On the other hand the kick back might stuns you bit depending on the power of the weapon. It's a small explosion going off near your face as well...(more camera shake and perhaps some VERY LIGHT blur effect while firing might simulate this better).

At 200m and more the recoil itself will affect your accuracy. It's not just about putting your sight at the right place and pull the trigger. You need to be very stable and well positioned to be accurate when you try to aim at something farther than 150-200m.

At 300m if your sight is just 0.1° out of its axis your bullet will go half a meter away from what you where aiming at.

Now who would expect to be able to hit anything at those ranges with the recoil model we have now?

Finally, again, I've done some more tests with the M249 on a milita group (not wearing any protection gear) placed at 400m.

Seriously it sometimes take up to 4 head shots to kill an enemy.
If one hit might not always be enough at that range ok but I would definitely expect to see them out of the fight after two 5.56 rounds in the butt.

This aspect of the game is probably one of the most important and I really hope it will be improved accordingly.

[arthur666]

...Seriously it sometimes take up to 4 head shots to kill an enemy.
If one hit might not always be enough at that range ok but I would definitely expect to see them out of the fight after two 5.56 rounds in the butt.

This aspect of the game is probably one of the most important and I really hope it will be improved accordingly.

Agreed. I noticed this more lately, not sure if anything has been changed in a recent beta...

5 shots from 250m with M4A1 didn't stop a Takistani soldier. Not very realistic when it happens so often. Once in a while, sure.

[-=seany=-]

I like the new recoil, but...I was using the M240 and M249 recently and they have too much recoil when you are prone. They have Bi-pods so they should be pretty stable when lying down.

[Murklor]

I like the new recoil, but...I was using the M240 and M249 recently and they have too much recoil when you are prone. They have Bi-pods so they should be pretty stable when lying down.
Are you using the latest beta? The M249 has basicly *no* recoil when prone and the M240 scoped is quite manageable (havent tried the others).

In contrast, the FN FAL fired in burst mode appear to be a simulation of your eyeball bouncing around in its socket or something.

[Wolfstriked]

Just went back to Arma 2 and actually am starting to think that the new recoil might just add more clunkiness to the game....an aspect it could do without IMO.The old recoil has a nice fluidity to it that makes for a more pleasant ride sitting at a desk.

I wonder what everyone here thinks about reverting back to using the old recoil w/the new recoil only for single shots.Then the engine could add alot of dispersion for auto fire.This could add a nice feel that is lacking in firing of weapons in Arma2.When the engine sees more than one shot in a seconds time it then puts dispersion at high setting.This dispersion could be set differently for the 3 positions.

Another idea would be to use the sway effect better.After each shot the sway effect can be multiplied by certain amount and slowly drops down to standard setting.This would cause the shooter to have to wait a split second or more for the wave effect to dissipate as a shooter does in real life after a shot.But just a slight multiply though...Arma2 takes things too far IMO.When fully exhausted the sway should not be a jittery mess as it is now but just a bit stronger.

[50.cal]

Agreed. I noticed this more lately, not sure if anything has been changed in a recent beta...

5 shots from 250m with M4A1 didn't stop a Takistani soldier. Not very realistic when it happens so often. Once in a while, sure.


I didn't mention it but I'm always using the latest beta.

[MavericK96]

Seriously it sometimes take up to 4 head shots to kill an enemy.
If one hit might not always be enough at that range ok but I would definitely expect to see them out of the fight after two 5.56 rounds in the butt.

This aspect of the game is probably one of the most important and I really hope it will be improved accordingly.

Yeah, this has confused me as well. I can't even tell if I'm hitting them half the time because they will absorb like 5-6 rounds before dying.

[Enforcer1975]

Yeah, this has confused me as well. I can't even tell if I'm hitting them half the time because they will absorb like 5-6 rounds before dying.

That's a major disadvantage of the small round. Shot a Tak from 4-500m with the Mk.17. I decked the guy on the first hit ( maybe 3 of 10 hits are not deadly because i hit a limb ).
And of course some balancing in game that gives the SAW a small damage advantage over the M4/16 in exchange for more recoil and a tiny bit less accuracy in comparison ( at least from my experience )

[50.cal]

After further testing today. I'll tone down my last remark concerning the recoil.
It's not perfect but it's not that bad either.

Now if the damage could be increased on the 5.56 weapons/bullets it would be be nice!

I think the enemy, if not dead, should systematically be combat infective after one or tow hit in any limb until a medic heal them. And this should stay true from 0 to at least 400m.

[That guy]

wile not wholly recoil related, BIS should change the americans default 5.56 ammo to the new m855A1 enhanced performance round. faster, more accurate, less flash and much more deadly, especially at range (supposedly more deadly than 7.62 at close range)

[AnimalMother92]

wile not wholly recoil related, BIS should change the americans default 5.56 ammo to the new m855A1 enhanced performance round. faster, more accurate, less flash and much more deadly, especially at range (supposedly more deadly than 7.62 at close range)

Interesting, perhaps a CIT ticket is in order?

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2010/06/u-s-army-issues-new-m855a1-ammo-to-troops-in-afghanistan/

[arthur666]

Speaking of the effectiveness of the 5.56, in RL a bullet out of an M16 is more powerful than one from an M4A1 because the longer barrel lets the projectile achieve a higher muzzle velocity(930m/s vs 884m/s). Is this modeled in game? It might explain why in game the SAW (915m/s) has more power than the M4, but it shouldn't be hotter than the M16.

[Enforcer1975]

Damage is bound to the ammo/magazine afaik.
If you use a STANAG in a M249 you have the same damage as a M4/M16. The original M249 belt might have more damage.


wile not wholly recoil related, BIS should change the americans default 5.56 ammo to the new m855A1 enhanced performance round. faster, more accurate, less flash and much more deadly, especially at range (supposedly more deadly than 7.62 at close range)

If a 7.62x39 would have the same accuracy and a flat trajectory ( meaning you can hit something ) beyond 200m it would still do more damage than the 5.56x45 you mentioned. It weighs a bit more. Unfortunatly there is a limit on the amount of weight you can put into a smaller caliber.

[MavericK96]

That's a major disadvantage of the small round. Shot a Tak from 4-500m with the Mk.17. I decked the guy on the first hit ( maybe 3 of 10 hits are not deadly because i hit a limb ).
And of course some balancing in game that gives the SAW a small damage advantage over the M4/16 in exchange for more recoil and a tiny bit less accuracy in comparison ( at least from my experience )

Except I've noticed this issue occurring even when using a large-caliber sniper rifle, such as the M110 or even the .50 cal.

[Enforcer1975]

Might be, might be not. I had a few where the guy survived the shot, i assume it was lag. But that was at an extreme distance for the game.
In clan wars where lag was not an issue due to the controlled environment i didn't have a no kill shot unless i wanted the guy to suffer and crawl. Can't remember where somebody was still standing after beeing hit by a .50 in ArmA 2 if you hit the torso or head, hitting a limb might give them a chance of survival at greater distances.
It happened a couple of times in ArmA 1 in a RPG mission, but the shooter had a lousy aim and hit our legs only ( of course you wouldn't have a leg if the game could show the effect ). To his bad luck he was close enough to be enganged by M16 ACOG.

In RL the bullet from a battle rifle would still kill you at 2km... ( probably )

[MavericK96]

I was referring to SP as well as MP, but yeah, sometimes it's possible that it's a limb shot first, but it should not take more than 2-3 direct hits (if even that) with a high-caliber weapon to kill an enemy. I'm talking about ranges within 800m as well.

[Ringosis]

I really don't think the argument that the new recoil is more realistic floats. Yes it's is more realistic that you can't fire fully automatic without having to compensate for the recoil but it's equally less realistic that if you don't adjust for the recoil you end up pointing at the sky.

Now I've never fired an M249 but I'm pretty sure that if I was lying down and I just pulled the trigger and aimed at nothing that the end result would not be the gun pointing straight up into the air with my back at a 90 degree angle to my legs.

The major problem with the new recoil, as others have pointed out, is that BIS seems to have chosen to ignore the fact that 90% of players will be using a mouse as an input device and having a system which forces you to make a perpetual downwards movement ends up with an irritating and immersion breaking need to constantly pick up and replace the mouse. To me it seems they have paid for an insignificant increase in realism with a large chunk of annoyance.

I really don't see why the same effect couldn't have been achieved by having the gun settle on a random slightly off center point for single shots and adding a progressive random direction drift for fully auto.

[Beagle]

Well most player seem to ingnore the in reality no light automatic weapon is fired full auto at a sustained rate. Just another argument PRO new Recoil, you really dont want to see your barrel cherry red glowing. Btw. In prone position you wont notice much of the changes in recoil at all.

[markushaze]

After some play testing ( combined ops) i must say.

At first i couldn't hit a thing, and i was like... yea....... damn that.
But after some practice ( sick1 Operation Delta camp ) i have to say. This is fantastic.
I just hope the same "inconvenience" goes for AI soldiers.

The feeling of firing a gun is greatly enhanced and i find a little practice and the setting works nicely.

thanx BIS for those updates.

[AnimalMother92]

I'm really growing to like the new recoil, it's much better than how it used to be. Though I still feel it's overdone for semi auto shots on a lot of weapons. For the most part it feels fair in auto or burst.

[76]

I like the latest recoil; except when prone. You can't even do 3-5 rnd bursts with a SAW because it still kicks the barrel waaayy up. Last night during MP I couldn't even lay suppressing fire for my team because after 4 or 5 rounds it was shooting 50 feet over their heads, and the spread was horrendous. I had to do single-round shots to even get close; and if they were running...there was no hope.
I think when prone your aim should auto-center (since the weapon is laying on the ground), so you can at least get some decent groups with bursts. I wanted to also suggest making it shake your screen a little more so it's a little harder to follow your target; but still possible to hit them (trying to simulate the gun kicking back more than up while prone).

However I really like the standing and kneeling recoil; seems pretty accurate.

I agree with all of the above, you should/could create an ticket at dev-heaven (http://dev-heaven.net/projects/cis)

[No Use For A Name]

I agree with all of the above, you should/could create an ticket at dev-heaven (http://dev-heaven.net/projects/cis)

Actually I found it was a conflict with a mod that was causing it to be a little too "dramatic"; once I disabled that it's actually very close to what I was expecting.

[CarlGustaffa]

Now I've never fired an M249 but I'm pretty sure that if I was lying down and I just pulled the trigger and aimed at nothing that the end result would not be the gun pointing straight up into the air with my back at a 90 degree angle to my legs.

Nor does it in the game. Emptying a 100 round clip from a SAW at prone gives me almost no barrel climb at all. All I'm getting is about one rearpost size angular movement, not many degrees at all. And it doesn't take a lot of "gun work" (mouse movement) to keep it approximately on target. And of course under no circumstance would you ever fire the SAW in this way anyway, so it's really a non issue.

[domokun]

Actually I found it was a conflict with a mod that was causing it to be a little too "dramatic"; once I disabled that it's actually very close to what I was expecting.

Mind telling us the name of the "mod that was causing it"?

[No Use For A Name]

Mind telling us the name of the "mod that was causing it"?

Well it could be any mod that modifies the recoil; but in my case it was one of the Proper Mods that increases weapon sway.
It's really best to play the betas with no mods for this reason. I usually use mod directories; but when I installed the Proper mods I put them in my addons dir. and forgot that they weren't disabled when I ran the game.

[Enad]

I don't like the new recoil. It basically makes its impossible to hit anything past 20m with any gun in full auto. It's hard enough to hit them in semi auto.
By instinct you would lower your gun after shooting. The recoil now is like your arms are stiff as wood. The new recoil could be good if it was ALOT less exaggerated.
I hope this doesn't end up in the next official patch. It's more annoying than anything, especially since the AI doesn't have this problem with aiming.

[CarlGustaffa]

Well, I for one love it and would like to see it implemented. The whole point of it is to make us less accurate, and it works. Trying to shoot too quickly makes me miss the targets. More shooting = longer firefights, great for the ambience. We are supposed to be soldiers under stress, not range shooters.

As for climbing vs random offset, with climbing we at least have a sense of how the gun behaves and can easily work the gun to get the sight picture back. With random offset, it wouldn't be a constant drag-down effort, but I think it would be even more annoying/time consuming as we didn't have a clue on how to work the gun.

I've never fired a 5.56 weapon in full auto, but I've fired 7.62 weapon in full auto. Granted, it wasn't a modern 7.62 like the Mk17. I'm not able to hit anything beyond 20 meters there either without working the gun - which in real life is using force to hold it down. Accurate shooting? Hell no. Even prone shooting at the range doing targets at 200 meters that wasn't shooting back, you spent quite some time to resight the 7.62.

[AnimalMother92]

The whole point of it is to make us less accurate, and it works. Trying to shoot too quickly makes me miss the targets. More shooting = longer firefights, great for the ambience.

This. I really like what the beta recoil has done for firefights.

That being said, I still think it needs tweaking. I'm glad that it encourages the use of semi over auto, but it feels overdone even on semi. Tapping out shots on an M4 is a little too arduous.

Hopefully, they continue to tweak and improve it...but I wouldn't want it to go away - it's a big step forward from the old recoil model.

[kylania]

Well, I for one love it and would like to see it implemented. The whole point of it is to make us less accurate, and it works. Trying to shoot too quickly makes me miss the targets. More shooting = longer firefights, great for the ambience. We are supposed to be soldiers under stress, not range shooters.

When it's so bad I cannot double tap, there's a problem. I'm not talking about full auto murder, I mean two deliberate squeezes of the trigger. First one is on target, second one is in orbit. That shouldn't happen. :(



I've never fired a 5.56 weapon in full auto, but I've fired 7.62 weapon in full auto.

I'm pretty sure a Delta Operator would be able to handle shooting 7.62 in full auto a lot better than a computer gamer and aren't we playing professional soldiers in game? :) :yay:

[akd42]

When it's so bad I cannot double tap, there's a problem. I'm not talking about full auto murder, I mean two deliberate squeezes of the trigger. First one is on target, second one is in orbit. That shouldn't happen. :(



I'm pretty sure a Delta Operator would be able to handle shooting 7.62 in full auto a lot better than a computer gamer and aren't we playing professional soldiers in game? :) :yay:

Double-tap at what range? 1000m like with original BIS recoil? 200m? This is still in the range of fantasy. 10m? Quite doable with new recoil system and practice.




I'm pretty sure a Delta Operator would be able to handle shooting 7.62 in full auto a lot better than a computer gamer and aren't we playing professional soldiers in game? :) :yay:

Really it is simple physics. 7.62 Nato weapons are difficult to control in full auto. It has been said that the the SCAR-H is one of the easier 7.62 Nato weapons to control, but it is still 7.62.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nGJeWxvGBM&feature=player_embedded
(Note this is the long-barreled marksman SCAR-H. Short-barreled versions would have even more recoil.)

Just tried the new RH HK-416 pack and the recoil on these weapons combined with the beta is much better than the BIS linear upwards version, with a much more random directional element. In operation it is very similar to video above.

[No Use For A Name]

I don't like the new recoil. It basically makes its impossible to hit anything past 20m with any gun in full auto. It's hard enough to hit them in semi auto.
By instinct you would lower your gun after shooting. The recoil now is like your arms are stiff as wood. The new recoil could be good if it was ALOT less exaggerated.
I hope this doesn't end up in the next official patch. It's more annoying than anything, especially since the AI doesn't have this problem with aiming.

lol I thought that was the point...You try firing a 5.56 or 7.62 in full auto IRL and see how accurate you are

[CarlGustaffa]

In another thread it was mentioned that the shot:kill ratio in Falkland War was in the neighborhood of 10000:1 - think about that for a second. Now it's gonna be a lot lower in a game due to AI's inability/desire to stay alive; proning instead of finding cover, attacking/maneuver without suppression etc. And naturally players risk taking being rewarded with kills because getting killed/wounded has no real cost at all.

In tonights session I played with the Mk16 Mk4CQ/T, and I had generally no problems "double tapping" targets at 200m, as long as I "worked the gun". Sometimes I hit, most times I missed, but even the misses had an effect in that enemy was being suppressed; could not return accurate fire.

Full auto worked reasonably fine in close ranges (<50m). Again, all you need to do is "work the gun" and get bullets downrange - forget about hitting stuff. If you need to hit stuff, use well aimed shots, which takes time to setup. The game needs every help it can get to get the firefights instead of the turkey shoot. I just don't get what is fun with a distance shootout where players are bound to win. If it's difficult, lower the AI accuracy, and enjoy the prolonged fight between the two of you.

"Work the gun" means pull downward while you shoot. It's fully possible to get some hits within reasonable distances. It's impossible to get all hits - just like in the real world. Take a look at that ratio figure again.

[JojoTheSlayer]

I like the recoil. If anything, dont make it less.
I would even like to see a balance between damage, recoil and caliber on the rifles.



I'm pretty sure a Delta Operator would be able to handle shooting 7.62 in full auto a lot better than a computer gamer and aren't we playing professional soldiers in game? :) :yay:

The "delta operator" will most probably figure out that using full auto with higher calibers is a waste of ammo. They wont really be able to handle it better than a computer game... Special forces wish they could move and shoot like people do in video games like COD4.

[Yokhanan]

Slightly more reworking and I'll love it. I remember reading somewhere about possibly looking into a weapon rest feature? Is that correct? Did BIS say that it's something they wouldn't mind looking into doing down the road? I'm quite interested and know a few of my guys are as well, but didn't find any info about it other than one or two brief comments awhile back.

[Fox '09]

honestly i think it's fine. Just getting used to it took some time, but now i'm kicking butt hehe

[tyler4171]

First one is on target, second one is in orbit. That shouldn't happen.
"Houstan, we have a problem"
-Apollo 13

Like Fox, Ive got used to it, of course I dont double tap or use full auto.

[LukeFF]

I like the new recoil. I've noticed that, for instance, the AKM moves up and to the right a little after every shot, just like my Romanian WASR-10/63. IMO it doesn't really need much tweaking.

[HyperU2]

I'm only running A2 and on the latest beta the recoil seems a little too strong to be realistic, happy to see the thought though. Rapid firing is more automatic than this allows, when done properly your body returns to the target with less effort. Even the SAW is tame in offhand.

[50.cal]

That's exactly what I think too.
Although I'm now getting used to the new recoil it still feels a bit to hard to readjust fire and as a result it slows me down too much.

[CarlGustaffa]

Slowing us down I think is the major benefit of this system :) Played medic yesterday with M4, and didn't have much problems with rapid fires when needed (close enemy).

[50.cal]

Trust me, it feels really wrong. Aiming is already something weird in this game due to control lag etc.
Did some tests with the old recoil system and it was way better.

If some ppl like to feel like uncoordinated or drunk soldier it's not a problem for me but pls think about the rest of us as well by making all these things optional just like the headbob.

[CarlGustaffa]

Aim, shoot, wait, shoot, wait, shoot, wait, shoot? That's the old system. Re-aiming in the real world doesn't work like that. Perfect or not, it's still infinitely better than the old system. Being optional means someone would get the edge over others, which has been said numerous times in this thread already.

[DMarkwick]

In general I'm in favour of the recoil system, but in a lot of situations it's overdone, using a machine gun while prone for example. With the current recoil, I am so affected by it that I can only fire one or two rounds with any sort of accuracy while prone, which gives me exactly no advantage over being crouched (other than being less visible). Obviously this is wrong, as a machine gunner you should have a significant advantage for being prone.

[50.cal]

Sure but as you say there's still something wrong. In terms of performance it's quite much under what I could do with a real weapon and a little training.



Aim, shoot, wait, shoot, wait, shoot, wait, shoot?

If the waiting time is accurate (fast enough) yes. That way I won't be forced to "snipe" with a m4.

Although I'm getting used to the new recoil and getting quite efficient with it now, I still think that dragging the mouse down and trying to put the sight back on target the way we have to do now is way to slow compared to what any normally constituted person would do.

On the other hand the camera shake effect (which is in my opinion the best enhancement concerning the shooting aspect of the game) is too weak when you consider that we're not shooting from the hip in arma.

All in all it's an excellent idea to improve the recoil and I'm all for it but there's still some work to do in order to get it right ;-)

[akd42]

In general I'm in favour of the recoil system, but in a lot of situations it's overdone, using a machine gun while prone for example. With the current recoil, I am so affected by it that I can only fire one or two rounds with any sort of accuracy while prone, which gives me exactly no advantage over being crouched (other than being less visible). Obviously this is wrong, as a machine gunner you should have a significant advantage for being prone.

You must have mods affecting your game, as this is not at all what I am experiencing. MGs are far, far more manageable prone than crouching. While prone, I find it easy to keep short M240 bursts on a car-sized target at 500m and house-sized target at 800m. This is perfectly realistic. Changing to crouch it is very difficult to due the same. Again, realistic, except we need to be able to rest our MGs on objects.


Trust me, it feels really wrong. Aiming is already something weird in this game due to control lag etc.
Did some tests with the old recoil system and it was way better.

If some ppl like to feel like uncoordinated or drunk soldier it's not a problem for me but pls think about the rest of us as well by making all these things optional just like the headbob.

No, the new system is much closer to reality. Only a mechanical shooting rest could achieve the performance of the old recoil system.

[Greez]

In general I'm in favour of the recoil system, but in a lot of situations it's overdone, using a machine gun while prone for example. With the current recoil, I am so affected by it that I can only fire one or two rounds with any sort of accuracy while prone, which gives me exactly no advantage over being crouched (other than being less visible). Obviously this is wrong, as a machine gunner you should have a significant advantage for being prone.

we are playing different games ?
latest beta patch
vXrX64PBAhY

[Beagle]

People should stop running mods in conjunction with Betas. Wierd recoils are know to happen with some recoil or weapon mods and Beta.

[That guy]

you guys dont realize how good you have it. the game automatically gives you perfect breath control, perfect trigger squeeze, perfect stock weld, perfect posture, weightless weapons, and perfect concentration. at all times

go cry a river

[Beagle]

It also gives us autoaim if we want. But obviously thats not what the majority wants.

[HyperU2]

you guys dont realize how good you have it. the game automatically gives you perfect breath control, perfect trigger squeeze, perfect stock weld, perfect posture, weightless weapons, and perfect concentration. at all times

go cry a river

Not entirely, when you're stressed your aim is all over the place.

I've noticed far too often that when I have a "clear" shot on a target but inadvertently shoot the wall I couldn't see at the tip of my muzzle it stresses my aim as if it was incoming.

[50.cal]

Beagle is right!

I had a go with the latest beta yesterday (did not test all weapons) and it was very good with the mk16...

When I had those weird results I did probably use a modded shortcut instead...my bad :S
And moreover now I can run the game with nearly all graph settings maxed out! A pure joy :-)

Now HyperU2 is still right concerning the stamina problem when we shoot a bullet accidentally near us.. since it's not incoming fire it shouldn't affect the stamina.

Going back for more testing now

[megagoth1702]

Solution for all your problems...

Dynamic Recoil (http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=103378)

[Logan9773]

If your looking for recoil, use the latest ACE mod. They do recoil very well.

[B00tsy]

I
I think when prone your aim should auto-center (since the weapon is laying on the ground), so you can at least get some decent groups with bursts. I wanted to also suggest making it shake your screen a little more so it's a little harder to follow your target; but still possible to hit them (trying to simulate the gun kicking back more than up while prone).

However I really like the standing and kneeling recoil; seems pretty accurate.

I think the there should be an option to have auto center on always. I am not a big fan of the recoil. I tmay be not all to annoying when you play it with 60+ frames a second, but with high 10 / low 20 fps it is pretty annoying. It takes like a socond or more to re aim my weapon after one shot, that kinda sucks. I liked ArmA 2 more then OA on that matter.

---------- Post added at 10:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:54 PM ----------






No, the new system is much closer to reality. Only a mechanical shooting rest could achieve the performance of the old recoil system.

Reality is one thing, playability is the second thing. If it is well balanced then fine, but I think the recoil is over done compared to playability.

[50.cal]

I think the there should be an option to have auto center on always. I am not a big fan of the recoil. I tmay be not all to annoying when you play it with 60+ frames a second, but with high 10 / low 20 fps it is pretty annoying. It takes like a socond or more to re aim my weapon after one shot, that kinda sucks. I liked ArmA 2 more then OA on that matter.

---------- Post added at 10:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:54 PM ----------



Reality is one thing, playability is the second thing. If it is well balanced then fine, but I think the recoil is over done compared to playability.

I think that concentrating on very small details like the recoil is not the correct way to solve the problem.
From my point of view we should instead look at the general weapon handling and efficiency.

Here are the main problems which need to be solved in order to achieve this goal:

1) Control lag
This problem as always been there since arma 1 and as result it takes way to much time to align you sight on target. It's not direct enough and you feel disconnected from the weapon. Of course low FPS=worst experience.

2) Non lethal hits doesn't affect AI in any noticeable way..
It's like ON/OFF. They are either dead or perfect combatants.
Sometimes I can hit an AI 4 times and it keeps running or eventually start to crawl. No fear, no pain, no morale, nothing stops them except death.
Instead they should retreat, seek cover, go down in agony, lose consciousness etc.

3) Weapon and rounds clipping into objects
Often you'll have your target in the collimator but whatever you do you'll keep shooting in that wall/rock/ground/dead body/AI "gun shield" or any little (visible or not) clipping object in front you (which results in a severe stamina penalty) until the AI puts an end of your misery.

Don't take me wrong, this is not a rant but from my point of view it's more the above described combinations that makes weapons feel wrong in game than just the recoil itself.

[stilpu]

1) Turn mouse smoothness off in options.
2) They used to flee back in ArmA1, not sure if this was kept in ArmA2 as well. Agree that more reactions would be useful here.
3) The bullet leaves from the barrel. Even if you can see the target perfectly, due to the height difference of the optics you might still hit a wall. This was more visible in OFP, since the weapon would visibly clip inside objects even in 1st person and you could tell you won't be able to shoot. Also some objects can have misaligned fire geometry, causing you to hit invisible walls, which is probably the fault of the modeler, not the game. Proper weapon collision with walls might help in both cases.

[CarlGustaffa]

I think the there should be an option to have auto center on always.

For obvious reasons, that won't happen. I think the majority wants it this way too.


but with high 10 / low 20 fps it is pretty annoying. It takes like a socond or more to re aim my weapon after one shot

That's the fps range I'm typically at. As the recoil is consistent upwards, we can anticipate it and start correcting immediately after shot was fired. I can shoot about the same pace as I did, but they may not be as accurate. It does take time to aim your weapon. And in the real life, most shots at these distances are fired with suppressive intent.


I liked ArmA 2 more then OA on that matter.

And for me, it was one of the pet hates. There was no firefights, only kills.


Reality is one thing, playability is the second thing. If it is well balanced then fine, but I think the recoil is over done compared to playability.

So recenter to 100% exact location (full playability) and absolutely no need to reaim your weapon (no realism) is balance to you? I think the balance is perfect. 50% playability (can anticipate where it goes and correct for it), and 50% realism (you have to aim to deliver accurate shots).

[B00tsy]

Well of course it just a matter of opinion and taste. The recoil is not bad for close range fire fights, but trying to snipe a guy or with any scoped rifle the gun/scope moves up like 3 meters above your original aim point. In fact there are plenty occasions where I was aiming for a guy at 300 to 500 meters and after 1 shot I totally lost the guy, because my scope was aiming somewhere in the sky. I litterly had to find the ground again and then trying to find the guy again.

The longer the range the worse it gets. I never fired a rifle for real in my life, but I cant imagine that a real sniper is pointing his rifle somewhere in the sky after 1 shot.

[Imperator_Pete]

Well of course it just a matter of opinion and taste. The recoil is not bad for close range fire fights, but trying to snipe a guy or with any scoped rifle the gun/scope moves up like 3 meters above your original aim point. In fact there are plenty occasions where I was aiming for a guy at 300 to 500 meters and after 1 shot I totally lost the guy, because my scope was aiming somewhere in the sky. I litterly had to find the ground again and then trying to find the guy again.

The longer the range the worse it gets. I never fired a rifle for real in my life, but I cant imagine that a real sniper is pointing his rifle somewhere in the sky after 1 shot.

Either something is extremely wrong with your game mate or you're exaggerating.

[That guy]

that happens with powerful rounds and powerful scopes from unsupported positions. deal with it

course in real life we have these things "mass" and "gravity" which make the rifle go up, and then down in an unexpected place until you can gain control of it again, and reaim

[whisper]

Either something is extremely wrong with your game mate or you're exaggerating.

Or he's shooting from standing position

[50.cal]

1) Turn mouse smoothness off in options.
2) They used to flee back in ArmA1, not sure if this was kept in ArmA2 as well. Agree that more reactions would be useful here.
3) The bullet leaves from the barrel. Even if you can see the target perfectly, due to the height difference of the optics you might still hit a wall. This was more visible in OFP, since the weapon would visibly clip inside objects even in 1st person and you could tell you won't be able to shoot. Also some objects can have misaligned fire geometry, causing you to hit invisible walls, which is probably the fault of the modeler, not the game. Proper weapon collision with walls might help in both cases.

1) This just skips frames and kill all mouse precision. To make it simple it doesn't work.
2) There never was any noticeable AI reaction when being shot at expect going prone or die after taking to much damage.
3) I know that but let me tell you I've shot many times with various rifles and I never found myself clipping into a walls nor did I ever shot at a wall because I was aiming lol...anyway.

And now I'm adding a new one. Bullets can't go trough a leg. I've just been tring to kill an AI lying behind an dead unit. I've put about 20 rounds in that leg and none went trough...warf:D... :hang:

To Bootsy:

You're probably using a high caliber weapon. Try going prone when using those one. They are not meant to be used unsupported...too much recoil.

[B00tsy]

Ok made a quick example vid of it. Dont mind the low 3D res, did that to compensate for the recorder (eats fps)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UVl_CU_HT8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UVl_CU_HT8

[50.cal]

you're using a mod

[B00tsy]

1)

To Bootsy:

You're probably using a high caliber weapon. Try going prone when using those one. They are not meant to be used unsupported...too much recoil.

Yeah mainly talking about sniper rifles, but when prone though. And that the scope is in the sky happens mostly when you try to kill guys on the horizon like in my vid, but it does show that it takes quite some time to re aim.

---------- Post added at 01:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 PM ----------


you're using a mod

Not sure if that was ment for me, but I am using AO vanilla.

[50.cal]

which version?

[B00tsy]

I am using the latest beta in the vid

[50.cal]

I am using the latest beta in the vid

lol then you messed up big time with your addon folder :D

[CarlGustaffa]

That does not happen for me. Vanilla latest beta, stra_debug only addon. It doesn't get that bad even if I shoot from standing. Well it goes high up, then it comes back again approximately half way, leaving target in the bottom end of the scope (while zoomed in).

[B00tsy]

lol then you messed up big time with your addon folder :D

Nothing there to mess up as I do not use addons >_<

[50.cal]

Nothing there to mess up as I do not use addons >_<

what can I say..you're in a deep ***.:rolleyes:
just head to the troubleshooting forum. I'll try to help you from there.

[mr.g-c]

If your looking for recoil, use the latest ACE mod. They do recoil very well.
Ohh yeahhh its really incredible with ACE....
Especially the HK417s with the Recoil and Sound are soo good felling ingame, its amazing.

[-=seany=-]

Why are Machine guns with Bipods lifting off the ground when you are prone? Apart from looking stupid, the recoil seems too much in this position. The East MGs don't seem too bad but the west ones seem to defy gravity quite a lot. BAF MG and MG36 are quite bad as are other west bipod weapons.

[kklownboy]

You have to "rest" the bipod? Its a "action key" Default is "shift-Space". It does not just automatically lock down a rest with a Bipod.

Oppsy ,my bad i was using ACE...

[Raafatah64]

guys plsss in the next update put back the old recoil coz the new one added in patch 1.54 is horrible and ruined the whole game coz all the guns shoot upward instead shooting straight thanx

[Punisher5555]

guys plsss in the next update put back the old recoil coz the new one added in patch 1.54 is horrible and ruined the whole game coz all the guns shoot upward instead shooting straight thanx


+1 :)

[Smurf]

guys plsss in the next update put back the old recoil coz the new one added in patch 1.54 is horrible and ruined the whole game coz all the guns shoot upward instead shooting straight thanx

Get in the line "coz" has been discussed for a LONG time now: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=102891

And I don´t see (nor want) it going away, but a rest\bipod funcion for the weapons would be more than welcome. Maybe one of the next DLC surprise?

[Raafatah64]

guys plsss in the next update put back the old recoil coz the new one added in patch 1.54 is horrible and ruined the whole game coz all the guns shoot upward instead shooting straight thanx

[No Use For A Name]

Get in the line "coz" has been discussed for a LONG time now: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=102891

And I don´t see (nor want) it going away, but a rest\bipod funcion for the weapons would be more than welcome. Maybe one of the next DLC surprise?

Agreed, let it stay. It feels 10x more realistic and makes PvP gunfights last a lot longer

[CarlGustaffa]

Me agrees with the two posts above mine: Recoil is where it should as it prevents insta-aim and prolongs firefights (which was much needed), but maybe a rest system (for bidpod equipped guns) could be added.

[maturin]

It's downright impossible in real life to shoot a series of single shots and end up with your torso leaning back, bent at the waist, aiming at the sky. This is almost idiotic.

You have to exert considerable effort to keep a heavy rifle aiming upwards. Why on earth wouldn't you simply let gravity carry it back down to the parallel position?

We badly need dynamic recoil. I can understand the cumulative muzzle climb for automatic fire, but it needs to be gradual and partially readjusted for.

Firing semiautomatic, however, this recoil system is just no good. The game needs to autocorrect muzzle climb, but BI is on the right track in so far as that the autocorrection shouldn't be 100% accurate.

I am unusually hostile to the recoil change because it affects me more. I use a version ACE that increases recoil for most weapons, and as a result a simple M4 is uncontrollable when fired in automatic, unless the enemy if under 50m away.

[CarlGustaffa]

Why are you shooting an M4 in automatic mode at enemies beyond 50m, and expect to hit with it? Of the two evils, the current one is the better. I'm not using ACE (yet), and find the firing just about perfect. Requires a bit of work to keep the gun down, but it's really not worth complaining about. You need a lot of lead downrange? Use a weapon designed for it.

[maturin]

75m is not "downrange." It is closer than you ever want anyone with a gun to be. But if I was to suppress someone at what really is short range, only my first two shots would be anywhere close. The others would be more dangerous to my own air support.

Maybe I would be able to keep the gun down effectively if I still had a trackball mouse, but not with the traditional trackpad I have now. I just don't have a free meter of desk.

Right now the only effective fire possible with an AK-47 or M-16 is a very sloooow series of carefully aimed shots. I'm not so sure that's how firefights really are. This is the greater evil.

If BIS want to nerf our accuracy, they should add idle (vertical) gun sway and and recoil that moves your aim in multiple directions so it balances out. It would be less obnoxious and unrealistic.

And really, just look at this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BviYM4bOWqc

[maturin]

The new recoil system prevents insta-aim and prolongs firefights. But it accomplishes this by affecting your first three shots. Forcing your next three to hit the stratosphere, looks, feels, and realistically is, ridiculous.

It badly needs to be tweaked so firing a gun can't magically cause your spine to bend backwards in set increments. Once we are shooting a few meters to high, give us a break and stop it with the muzzle climb. It would make an actual marksman laugh to see people letting their gun practically leave their hands for the heavens.

[kylania]

The new recoil system prevents insta-aim and prolongs firefights. But it accomplishes this by affecting your first three shots. Forcing your next three to hit the stratosphere, looks, feels, and realistically is, ridiculous.

Why are you shooting 6 times without even trying to adjust your aim? :confused:

Double-tap, observe, correct, final shot. Shouldn't need more than that. :yay:

[maturin]

Why are you shooting 6 times without even trying to adjust your aim? :confused:



Why are we suddenly okay with complete fantasy in a supposedly realistic game so long as it only causes problems sometimes? Like if you try to unload on a truck full of troops but actually hitting with anything but the first few bullets is almost impossible?

I should say that I play with ACE (more recoil in general) and an Arma 2 beta patch (has the recoil been adjusted recently?), so really extreme results are behind my negative reaction to the principle of the one-way muzzle climb.

But I still think we really need dynamic recoil, as has been proposed recently.

Edit: And even the most enthusiastic fan of the new system simply has to admit that scrolling the scope of your sniper down, down, down to locate planet Earth again after a shot has got to be one of the more stupidly surreal moments in gaming. If your rifle kicked its barrel a foot into the air, why on earth would you hold it there?

[kylania]

I hated the new recoil when it went in, but I've learned to adapt and overcome. I shoot less, but more accurately now.

Sure if you just hold down the trigger and let the lead fly, you're going to look like a fool as you end up shooting straight up in the air. If you take even the slightly amount of time to think about your shots, you'll do fine. In the end ArmA2 is a game and the recoil change was needed because even though it might not be realistic, it was a huge problem.

As for the sniper thing, you're obviously using the M-107. You shouldn't need multiple shots with that thing, it's an anti-material rifle. You shouldn't ever miss the vehicle you're shooting at requiring 5 more shots... Other sniper rifles don't have that much recoil as to have to find the horizon again after a shot.

[MadDogX]

Is it really necessary to have the stupid recoil discussion in two threads at the same time? Please, do the rest of us a favor and keep it in the other one, for f*ck's sake.

----

Hear, hear.

[Zipper5]

It will never end, MadDogX. We've developed an incredibly anal community here, for better and for worse. :p

[CarlGustaffa]

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/riflechart.jpg
30% below 100m is quite a lot. Just search youtube for firefight to see some examples of "well aimed shots" during a firefight; practically nonexistent. Sure the barrel climbs, even unrealistically so. But I have no problems countering it by dragging (only have about 12cm wide x 20cm tall mouse area). But by doing so I'm not able to fire fast and accurate.

TrackPad? For gaiming? Makes my head spin just thinking about it. :D C'mon, get a proper input device at least before complaining :p It's like complaining about joystick support for MS Word :D

[Raafatah64]

its not about the kick back its the damn rifles going on up position everytime u fire if u guys try the pkm its like shooting at ducks in the sky not at soldiers on the ground same goes with the mag machine gun hope it will b fixed soon and tweak a little bit the kick back also

[maturin]

As for the sniper thing, you're obviously using the M-107.

Err, news to me.

And even if I was, you know perfectly well that the M-107 almost never shoots at cars in this game.

It's not the recoil that's the problem, it's the lack of autocorrection. And just because your player character doesn't raise his gun like the goddamn Iwo Jima flag doesn't mean your shots will be as accurate as they were pre-patch.

It's great that everyone has learned to deal with it and ignore the unrealistic operation, but something tells me that good game design doesn't involve the players having to grin and bear it.

[CarlGustaffa]

And just because your player character doesn't raise his gun like the goddamn Iwo Jima flag doesn't mean your shots will be as accurate as they were pre-patch.

It's great that everyone has learned to deal with it and ignore the unrealistic operation, but something tells me that good game design doesn't involve the players having to grin and bear it.

No, it's the time spent to re-aim that goes way below acceptable when it lands near.

Most of us have no problem with the extra work involved. Sure it's more difficult to hit, that's the whole idea. Try a mouse... Compare any youtube video of a firefight and returning fire with how you used to play this game. Maybe the mechanics is wrong, but for me it's the end result that counts - takes longer time to aim well and makes it harder to shoot fast which results in prolonged firefights.

[maturin]

No, it's the time spent to re-aim that goes way below acceptable when it lands near.

That's not true. If your recoil autoadjusted so it created errors in every dimension, averaging out overall with slight muzzle climb, it would be just as, if not more difficult, to correct. The distance would be lesser but each shot would involve a different snap judgments and directional movement.


Compare any youtube video of a firefight and returning fire with how you used to play this game.
As I said earlier, I play even less realistic now because only carefully-aimed shots are effective. Spraying isn't even good for suppression anymore, although this may be in part due to ACE 2.


Maybe the mechanics is wrong, but for me it's the end result that counts - takes longer time to aim well and makes it harder to shoot fast which results in prolonged firefights.
There are other mechanics that could do it without being so wrong. And this is a change introduced in beta, meaning instead of being quiescent little sheep we should suggest alternatives! I don't understand all the people defending the new system because it is experimental by definition and supposed to be perfected. So tell me why muzzle climb couldn't top off after a certain amount of vertical change? Why not more barrel sway and breath control? Heck, why not add suppression effects to sonic cracks as well as impacts? I don't want it reverted, although now I really wish I could get rid of ACE's recoil changes and tone down snipers and the AK-74 in general.

[CarlGustaffa]

I'm not defending it more than saying it's better than what we had. I wouldn't mind proper (like in JCOVE Lite) sway, breath control to counter it, and suppression effects due to sonic cracks, on top of the recoil. In fact I would love it!

[AnimalMother92]

I wouldn't mind proper (like in JCOVE Lite) sway, breath control to counter it, and suppression effects due to sonic cracks, on top of the recoil. In fact I would love it!

Yes please! That'd be fantastic :)

[maturin]

That's not for beta patches, though, at least not without a long development cycle to implement it correctly.

In the meantime could we please just have a cap on muzzle climb and autoadjustment inaccuracies in multiple directions? That seems more doable by tweaking the preexisting system.

[MacScottie]

I really don't think the argument that the new recoil is more realistic floats. Yes it's is more realistic that you can't fire fully automatic without having to compensate for the recoil but it's equally less realistic that if you don't adjust for the recoil you end up pointing at the sky.

Now I've never fired an M249 but I'm pretty sure that if I was lying down and I just pulled the trigger and aimed at nothing that the end result would not be the gun pointing straight up into the air with my back at a 90 degree angle to my legs.

The major problem with the new recoil, as others have pointed out, is that BIS seems to have chosen to ignore the fact that 90% of players will be using a mouse as an input device and having a system which forces you to make a perpetual downwards movement ends up with an irritating and immersion breaking need to constantly pick up and replace the mouse. To me it seems they have paid for an insignificant increase in realism with a large chunk of annoyance.

I really don't see why the same effect couldn't have been achieved by having the gun settle on a random slightly off center point for single shots and adding a progressive random direction drift for fully auto.

This pretty much sums up everything I want to say here(and I've said in other posts regarding this issue).

[maturin]

So is there a bugtracker feature request ticket for that idea?

[PuFu]

why don't you search it yourself?

[Chumba]

This whole system of offsetting the aimpoint in this fashion is simply daft and UNREALISTIC - period! Screenshake is the BIG thing that can SIMULATE to a reasonable degree ON A PC SCREEN the whole business of shooting - along with perhaps a tiny bit of random offset. The disorientation of screenshake along with not actually having the aimpoint back to precise origin would be spot on and produce an actually very realistic experience and result.

[CarlGustaffa]

No, screenshake doesn't actually accomplish anything (but the disorientation). I use it for vehicle mounted M2s and Mk19s in attempt to reduce effectiveness. Although it works by adding time needed to aim at something new, it doesn't work by having recoil and every round will hit its current aimed at target. Just try it.

[GiorgyGR]

@<hidden>
+1

[Hellhound]

I have no trouble with recoil with the assault rifles, but when prone firing with the M107 its ridiculous. The recoil should be backwards and not up. There's a vid on youtube of someone while prone shooting 10 rounds on target in 10 secs. with the M107, this is not even remotely possible in Arma 2 with the new recoil.

[CarlGustaffa]

Everybody knows much of the recoil is kickback. How do you propose simulating the kickback in scope while causing an issue to the shooter? I think the up movement does a good enough job and forces you to reaim. If you mean this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWJp14tkBlU) video, the distance looks like 100 meters or less, and we don't get to see the result. Means it really only shows how fast the gun can shoot, not how long time you spend in the sight to reaim at a far away and tiny target. You think anyone would shoot like that at serious distances? I seriously doubt it - only in a computer game...

I just did a test and I can put down 9 civilians (I missed one) standing side by side (lateral reaim required) at 100m using the M107 in about twelve seconds.

Maybe it's not perfect. I don't care. It slows down aiming, and makes snipers appear more like snipers. I think it's the correct move.

[Ulanthorn]

I noticed that a good gaming mouse with dpi selectable on the fly does wonders with controlling the new recoil guns in OA...I got one because it was to hard with my old fixed 1200 dpi office mouse. 2800dpi and full auto works good in close range...on far range you just use 800dpi.

[Hellhound]

The problem is that after firing the gun (barrel) is not coming back to the rest position, even in prone, totally not realistic. But it probably has to do with the fact that the spiked feet on the M107 and other sniper rifles are purely cosmetic and have no function whatsoever :(

[CarlGustaffa]

"Spiked feet"? :D Hehe, have to remember that one. I thought some kind of weapon rest / bipod stabilizing system was being considered. Currently you can counter it by "working the gun", drag downwards. Easy to master and doesn't allow accurate fast shooting (which is it's intention). So the system works. Rest assured that any auto return system would take far longer, and you had to wait that time before starting to counter it, making it utterly impossible to shoot fast. People would complain even more about it, and we would get the old system back - nothing gained.

Yeah I have gaming mouse with selectable DPI, but I always leave it on medium. Ehm, you do have a mouse, right? A big complainer earlier turned out to be using a touchpad (those on laptops), and yeah sure, that's obviously going to cause issues. Maybe "keyboard and mouse" should be under recommended specs? Didn't think it was needed for a game of this nature, but... :p

[Hellhound]

Yes i play with a mouse of coarse, and i do counter the movement bij dragging the mouse down, but it still isn't very realistic recoil behavior no matter how you look at it. I would like some collision detection on the gun, so that when prone it rests stable on the floor and not goes through the floor when pointing down! :( .
P.S specially for CarlGustaffa :D
This is where i got the "spiked feet" from
http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/M107.html

http://www.inetres.com/gp/military/infantry/rifle/M107/M107_1_T.jpg

[NkEnNy]

Yes i play with a mouse of coarse, and i do counter the movement bij dragging the mouse down, but it still isn't very realistic recoil behavior no matter how you look at it. *snip*
The point is that ther new recoil keeps the player in the loop.

In any case Shooting in Arma2 isn't realistic. Ballistics are fucked. Animations are unatural/wooden. Weight and handling characteristics of weapons are pretty much ignored. Arma2 shooting IS NOT REALISTIC.

The new recoil forces player input when engaging targets. Recoil is quite consistent and easy to learn. The simple truth is L2P (learn to play). Its a game with rules and mechanics. Spend some time mastering these rules and your skills will increase.

-k

edit: Seven hells, I forgot the most obvious ones. The way aimpoints (collimator sights), scopes, or even regular ironsights. ARE NOT REALISTIC. Take the mp5 for instance. IRL famed for its good sights-- yet the way they are presented in Arma2 make them practically the worst of the lot. (you could hide a whole batallion... of tanks behind the rearsights.) The realism card just doesn't cut it. Argue for gameplay, game balance, immersion and intuitive interface and we may be on to something.

[CarlGustaffa]

@<hidden>:
Yeah I was hoping you were, but as I said earlier, "of course" doesn't apply - there really are exceptions. And ok, "spiked feet" it is :D And yes, I see the term is actually used elsewhere too. Still funny, for me, guess bed is calling :p

About collision detection (I'm guessing with the bipod, not the end of the barrel), what if you needed to aim lower (terrain, slope, elevation etc)? There are numerous things you can do with your pose to achieve the desired firing position you want in real life, that doesn't exist in the game. "No you can't fire at that target from that position due collision", wouldn't that be a problem?

I checked, and first I was going to say "I'm not able to get gun through floor", but indeed it does seem to happen, but only in 3rd person. Strange, but for me a non issue (at least not visually).

So what if it isn't a realistic recoil behavior? It gets the gameplay aspect right, probably using a simplified formula for everything to speed up the development process and allow other bugs to be fixed. I wouldn't mind specific recoil models for each and every gun, but I fully understand the reasons not to. Do you want realistic helicopter flying too and deny most of the players the ability to fly?

Since you play the realism card, why didn't you bring up another part of that page? ;) I've seen that issue mentioned on this page before, and on others. But I have yet to see it appear in a request for increased realism. Funny how that works, huh?...

[akd42]

The problem is that after firing the gun (barrel) is not coming back to the rest position, even in prone, totally not realistic. But it probably has to do with the fact that the spiked feet on the M107 and other sniper rifles are purely cosmetic and have no function whatsoever :(

Imagine sitting an m107 on the ground, tying a string to the trigger, backing away and giving the string a tug. Would the barrel return to the same position? Now imagine doing the same with an MG.

Sorry, but there is human in the loop.

[maturin]

How do you propose simulating the kickback in scope while causing an issue to the shooter? .

I thought we already did.

[kklownboy]

recoil is fine. Most of the whiners are snipers...BAH to them.. If anything there isnt enough recoil. Best to use a mod that fits your needs.ACE/TASM/RH ect...